Negotiate scholarships- it's a buyers' market: NLJ article

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sunynp
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Negotiate scholarships- it's a buyers' market: NLJ article

Postby sunynp » Sun Jun 24, 2012 12:05 pm

It's a buyers' market at law school
Suddenly in demand, prospective students wonder, "How much money can I get?"

http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNL ... law_school


It's anything but business as usual during this year's law school admissions cycle. That seemed obvious to the nearly 500 prelaw advisers and law school admissions officers who gathered in Washington in mid-June for a five-day conference of the Pre-Law Advisors National Council.

"It's quite competitive this year," said Heather Struck, assistant dean at Cornell University's College of Arts and Sciences and chairwoman of the organization. "I have seen, anecdotally, some very generous merit scholarship offers."


The University of Michigan Law School is ranked No. 10 by U.S. News & World Report, but a larger than normal number of its admittees are getting the nod from even higher ranked schools where they had been put on wait lists, said assistant dean for admissions Sarah Zearfoss. "Wait list activity is way up," she said.

Jessica Soban, assistant dean and chief admissions officer at Harvard Law School, declined to offer any admissions numbers until the fall, but expected "any trend to be consistent with what our peer schools report."

This admissions cycle hasn't been all that different from previous ones for top-ranked Yale Law School, said associate dean Asha Rangappa. Yale — which takes only about half as many students each year as Harvard's 400 — saw a 7 percent drop in applications. Still, Rangappa expected to enroll a typical first-year class of 205 students without relaxing its admissions standards.



Even Michigan admittees aren't immune to scholarship fever.

"Our second deposit deadline just passed, and a number of people came back to us and said, 'When I tried to withdraw from the other school, they said, 'We'll double your scholarship or give you a free ride.' " Zearfoss said. "It's frustrating for us because as a general policy we don't do a lot of negotiation. But it's also emotionally hard on the student. They just want things to be settled."

Even though Michigan increased its acceptance rate this year from the traditional one in five applicants to one in four, its incoming class still may end up slightly smaller than last year, she said.


Note - just read the article.

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fatduck
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Re: Negotiate scholarships- it's a buyers' market: NLJ article

Postby fatduck » Sun Jun 24, 2012 12:10 pm

lol "stop offering the kids more money! it's very emotionally taxing!"

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Mr. Pancakes
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Re: Negotiate scholarships- it's a buyers' market: NLJ article

Postby Mr. Pancakes » Sun Jun 24, 2012 12:14 pm

They should have never given you people money!

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justonemoregame
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Re: Negotiate scholarships- it's a buyers' market: NLJ article

Postby justonemoregame » Sun Jun 24, 2012 12:14 pm

Yeah law school is a buyer's market. UVA is having a 52K Fire Sale this fall.

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Bildungsroman
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Re: Negotiate scholarships- it's a buyers' market: NLJ article

Postby Bildungsroman » Sun Jun 24, 2012 12:17 pm

fatduck wrote:lol "stop offering the kids more money! it's very emotionally taxing!"

Seriously. One of the more oblivious quotes I've seen in recent law school articles.

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dingbat
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Re: Negotiate scholarships- it's a buyers' market: NLJ article

Postby dingbat » Sun Jun 24, 2012 12:17 pm

justonemoregame wrote:Yeah law school is a buyer's market. UVA is having a 52K Fire Sale this fall.

considering there are still more applicants than there are places, it's still a seller's market.

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sunynp
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Re: Negotiate scholarships- it's a buyers' market: NLJ article

Postby sunynp » Sun Jun 24, 2012 12:18 pm

At this point I wonder if already committed students should go back and ask for more. It doesn't seem like anyone has anything to lose by pushing for more this year. Keep going back and see what happens.

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sunynp
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Re: Negotiate scholarships- it's a buyers' market: NLJ article

Postby sunynp » Sun Jun 24, 2012 12:20 pm

dingbat wrote:
justonemoregame wrote:Yeah law school is a buyer's market. UVA is having a 52K Fire Sale this fall.

considering there are still more applicants than there are places, it's still a seller's market.


Not if schools want to maintain their medians for GPA and LSAT scores. The article says Michigan is going to have a smaller class. I presume that is so they can maintain those precious numbers.

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dingbat
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Re: Negotiate scholarships- it's a buyers' market: NLJ article

Postby dingbat » Sun Jun 24, 2012 12:20 pm

sunynp wrote:At this point I wonder if already committed students should go back and ask for more. It doesn't seem like anyone has anything to lose by pushing for more this year. Keep going back and see what happens.

Yup, push until you get full tuition and living stipend. Then ask for more.

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Bildungsroman
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Re: Negotiate scholarships- it's a buyers' market: NLJ article

Postby Bildungsroman » Sun Jun 24, 2012 12:21 pm

dingbat wrote:
justonemoregame wrote:Yeah law school is a buyer's market. UVA is having a 52K Fire Sale this fall.

considering there are still more applicants than there are places, it's still a seller's market.

We could get into an argument over this pedantic and ultimately incorrect point, or you could just accept that you're wrong.

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dingbat
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Re: Negotiate scholarships- it's a buyers' market: NLJ article

Postby dingbat » Sun Jun 24, 2012 12:23 pm

sunynp wrote:
dingbat wrote:
justonemoregame wrote:Yeah law school is a buyer's market. UVA is having a 52K Fire Sale this fall.

considering there are still more applicants than there are places, it's still a seller's market.


Not if schools want to maintain their medians for GPA and LSAT scores. The article says Michigan is going to have a smaller class. I presume that is so they can maintain those precious numbers.

Do you know what a seller's market is?
The fact that the school can have any selectivity whatsoever proves that it is a seller's market. Just because they either A) need to take in a smaller class, or B) need to be less selective, doesn't mean it's suddenly a buyer's market.

If they choose, Michigan could fill the entire class (and then some) with people willing to pay sticker, and still be selective.

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justonemoregame
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Re: Negotiate scholarships- it's a buyers' market: NLJ article

Postby justonemoregame » Sun Jun 24, 2012 12:27 pm

dingbat wrote:
sunynp wrote:
dingbat wrote:
justonemoregame wrote:Yeah law school is a buyer's market. UVA is having a 52K Fire Sale this fall.

considering there are still more applicants than there are places, it's still a seller's market.


Not if schools want to maintain their medians for GPA and LSAT scores. The article says Michigan is going to have a smaller class. I presume that is so they can maintain those precious numbers.

Do you know what a seller's market is?
The fact that the school can have any selectivity whatsoever proves that it is a seller's market. Just because they either A) need to take in a smaller class, or B) need to be less selective, doesn't mean it's suddenly a buyer's market.

If they choose, Michigan could fill the entire class (and then some) with people willing to pay sticker, and still be selective.


+1

I feel so bad for these schools having to compete on price. They should get to set the price after orientation.

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Bildungsroman
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Re: Negotiate scholarships- it's a buyers' market: NLJ article

Postby Bildungsroman » Sun Jun 24, 2012 12:29 pm

Really those other schools should apologize to Dean Z for making Michigan compete. If only law school admissions departments could enter into some large agreement not to compete with one another, and just offer the same price on the market as one another.

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sunynp
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Re: Negotiate scholarships- it's a buyers' market: NLJ article

Postby sunynp » Sun Jun 24, 2012 12:31 pm

dingbat wrote:
sunynp wrote:
dingbat wrote:
justonemoregame wrote:Yeah law school is a buyer's market. UVA is having a 52K Fire Sale this fall.

considering there are still more applicants than there are places, it's still a seller's market.


Not if schools want to maintain their medians for GPA and LSAT scores. The article says Michigan is going to have a smaller class. I presume that is so they can maintain those precious numbers.

Do you know what a seller's market is?
The fact that the school can have any selectivity whatsoever proves that it is a seller's market. Just because they either A) need to take in a smaller class, or B) need to be less selective, doesn't mean it's suddenly a buyer's market.

If they choose, Michigan could fill the entire class (and then some) with people willing to pay sticker, and still be selective.


I wonder why Michigan's assistant dean for admissions thinks they have a problem filling their class then.

In any event, the point is that this year is a good time to push hard for more scholarship money.

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justonemoregame
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Re: Negotiate scholarships- it's a buyers' market: NLJ article

Postby justonemoregame » Sun Jun 24, 2012 12:40 pm

I think people should definitely push hard for money, but I think the t-14 still has a decided upper hand in negotiations. I'd be suprised if Michigan has issues filling a class - they filled up on summer starts and the WL FAQ from a week ago mentioned making like 10 more offers. Obv. that could change, but they WL tons of people, no?

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dingbat
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Re: Negotiate scholarships- it's a buyers' market: NLJ article

Postby dingbat » Sun Jun 24, 2012 1:08 pm

sunynp wrote:
dingbat wrote:
sunynp wrote:
dingbat wrote:considering there are still more applicants than there are places, it's still a seller's market.


Not if schools want to maintain their medians for GPA and LSAT scores. The article says Michigan is going to have a smaller class. I presume that is so they can maintain those precious numbers.

Do you know what a seller's market is?
The fact that the school can have any selectivity whatsoever proves that it is a seller's market. Just because they either A) need to take in a smaller class, or B) need to be less selective, doesn't mean it's suddenly a buyer's market.

If they choose, Michigan could fill the entire class (and then some) with people willing to pay sticker, and still be selective.


I wonder why Michigan's assistant dean for admissions thinks they have a problem filling their class then.

In any event, the point is that this year is a good time to push hard for more scholarship money.
Because the assistant dean is either phrasing the issue incorrectly, or the assistant dean is an idiot.
The formula is simple:
send out X acceptances to admit Y students; lose Z students to other schools' waitlists and replenish with Z students from your own waitlist)
However, this year, the numbers that X, Y and Z represent, and therefore the ratios between them, have changed. The concept is still the same; however, if the dean is relying on the same numbers for X, Y and Z as 3 years ago, obviously the results are going to come out wrong. Not exactly rocket science

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sunynp
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Re: Negotiate scholarships- it's a buyers' market: NLJ article

Postby sunynp » Sun Jun 24, 2012 1:14 pm

dingbat wrote:Because the assistant dean is either phrasing the issue incorrectly, or the assistant dean is an idiot.
The formula is simple:
send out X acceptances to admit Y students; lose Z students to other schools' waitlists and replenish with Z students from your own waitlist)
However, this year, the numbers that X, Y and Z represent, and therefore the ratios between them, have changed. The concept is still the same; however, if the dean is relying on the same numbers for X, Y and Z as 3 years ago, obviously the results are going to come out wrong. Not exactly rocket science


Yeah I was talking about this year. This year, as you said, is affected by the dean relying on numbers being the same as the last few years. Although the article said that Michigan upped its acceptance rate from last year.

I wonder what the next few years will bring.
Last edited by sunynp on Sun Jun 24, 2012 1:19 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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sunynp
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Re: Negotiate scholarships- it's a buyers' market: NLJ article

Postby sunynp » Sun Jun 24, 2012 1:16 pm

justonemoregame wrote:I think people should definitely push hard for money, but I think the t-14 still has a decided upper hand in negotiations. I'd be suprised if Michigan has issues filling a class - they filled up on summer starts and the WL FAQ from a week ago mentioned making like 10 more offers. Obv. that could change, but they WL tons of people, no?


I only know what the article says. I guess we have to wait to see how it all plays out.

from the article:
Even though Michigan increased its acceptance rate this year from the traditional one in five applicants to one in four, its incoming class still may end up slightly smaller than last year, she said.

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Renne Walker
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Re: Negotiate scholarships- it's a buyers' market: NLJ article

Postby Renne Walker » Sun Jun 24, 2012 1:46 pm

While I see the obvious upside of lower tuitions, I am not a fan of schools dropping their rates BECAUSE all that assures is the continued glut of lawyers into the marketplace.

Since Michigan was already brought up. It’s’11 employment rate is 75% with only 33% hired by large law firms. Does that look great to anyone? Is anyone here brave enough to say that the ’12 employment picture will be better. . . thought not.

Worse yet, given the idiotic curve, if you placed the 200 brightest students in the same class, 25% are still going to be screwed. I realize that if you’re in the T6 the employers understand that they are dealing with the best and brightest, but you know what, ITE the bottom 25% of anything is a hard sell, IMO.

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Re: Negotiate scholarships- it's a buyers' market: NLJ article

Postby vanwinkle » Sun Jun 24, 2012 1:52 pm

justonemoregame wrote:Yeah law school is a buyer's market. UVA is having a 52K Fire Sale this fall.

It's a buyer's market, but the currency here is GPA/LSAT. If you don't have the goods, you're not a buyer, you're just a guy willing to throw money at them.

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dingbat
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Re: Negotiate scholarships- it's a buyers' market: NLJ article

Postby dingbat » Sun Jun 24, 2012 1:53 pm

Renne Walker wrote: I realize that if you’re in the T6 the employers understand that they are dealing with the best and brightest, but you know what, ITE the bottom 25% of anything is a hard sell, IMO.

yeah, but employers don't only want the best, they want the hardest workers, which is not necessarily the same thing. Someone who is top 25% at a local feeder school will probably be a better hire than someone who is bottom 25% at a T14, because if the smarter person at the T14 underperforms his/her peers at said school, odds are that same person will underperform as an associate*, whereas someone who's a little less smart (but still smarter than the average bear) who outperforms his/her peers has a good chance of at least holding his/her own as an associate*.
*this refers to both performance as an associate and surviving long enough as an associate

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dingbat
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Re: Negotiate scholarships- it's a buyers' market: NLJ article

Postby dingbat » Sun Jun 24, 2012 1:55 pm

vanwinkle wrote:
justonemoregame wrote:Yeah law school is a buyer's market. UVA is having a 52K Fire Sale this fall.

It's a buyer's market, but the currency here is GPA/LSAT. If you don't have the goods, you're not a buyer, you're just a guy willing to throw money at them.

Well, that certainly does make the matter complex, but on that basis, yep, I agree.

Or, looking at it a different way, the "good" that's being sold/bought is GPA/LSAT.

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Bildungsroman
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Re: Negotiate scholarships- it's a buyers' market: NLJ article

Postby Bildungsroman » Sun Jun 24, 2012 1:57 pm

dingbat wrote:
Renne Walker wrote: I realize that if you’re in the T6 the employers understand that they are dealing with the best and brightest, but you know what, ITE the bottom 25% of anything is a hard sell, IMO.

yeah, but employers don't only want the best, they want the hardest workers, which is not necessarily the same thing. Someone who is top 25% at a local feeder school will probably be a better hire than someone who is bottom 25% at a T14, because if the smarter person at the T14 underperforms his/her peers at said school, odds are that same person will underperform as an associate*, whereas someone who's a little less smart (but still smarter than the average bear) who outperforms his/her peers has a good chance of at least holding his/her own as an associate*.
*this refers to both performance as an associate and surviving long enough as an associate

Thank you for bringing this new information to light. Now we know: hiring is about both school and rank. Maybe even about other things as well.

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rayiner
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Re: Negotiate scholarships- it's a buyers' market: NLJ article

Postby rayiner » Sun Jun 24, 2012 1:58 pm

fatduck wrote:lol "stop offering the kids more money! it's very emotionally taxing!"


I hate Dean Z with a passion. She's the worst kind of out-of-touch school administrator.

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dingbat
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Re: Negotiate scholarships- it's a buyers' market: NLJ article

Postby dingbat » Sun Jun 24, 2012 2:03 pm

Bildungsroman wrote:
dingbat wrote:
Renne Walker wrote: I realize that if you’re in the T6 the employers understand that they are dealing with the best and brightest, but you know what, ITE the bottom 25% of anything is a hard sell, IMO.

yeah, but employers don't only want the best, they want the hardest workers, which is not necessarily the same thing. Someone who is top 25% at a local feeder school will probably be a better hire than someone who is bottom 25% at a T14, because if the smarter person at the T14 underperforms his/her peers at said school, odds are that same person will underperform as an associate*, whereas someone who's a little less smart (but still smarter than the average bear) who outperforms his/her peers has a good chance of at least holding his/her own as an associate*.
*this refers to both performance as an associate and surviving long enough as an associate

Thank you for bringing this new information to light. Now we know: hiring is about both school and rank. Maybe even about other things as well.

let me paraphrase:
Being smart isn't enough. Just because you managed to cruise into a good law school by being smarter than everyone else doesn't mean you'll be able to just cruise through law school and into a high paying job.
Don't want to be SOL? Don't be bottom 25% - it just shows that you're not as capable as your equally smart peers.




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