..

Discuss various money matters here. Loans (federal and private), scholarships, lottery winnings, or other school finance related information and queries.
sandiego222
Posts: 102
Joined: Sat Dec 03, 2011 4:21 pm

..

Postby sandiego222 » Wed Apr 04, 2012 9:38 pm

....
Last edited by sandiego222 on Tue May 29, 2012 5:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
SkeeterV
Posts: 15
Joined: Tue Mar 06, 2012 11:26 pm

Re: T 14 with 20 K a year... is it actually affordable??

Postby SkeeterV » Wed Apr 04, 2012 9:40 pm

Also interested in thoughts on this. I'm in a pretty similar situation.

User avatar
bk1
Posts: 18410
Joined: Sun Mar 14, 2010 7:06 pm

Re: T 14 with 20 K a year... is it actually affordable??

Postby bk1 » Wed Apr 04, 2012 9:43 pm

You're not factoring in a few things, namely interest and tuition increases.

But 100k-ish debt for a T14 is very reasonable. Even in the worst case scenario you end up at a small firm making around 50k/year, you will still be able to pay off your debt within 10 years.

And yes, around 1/2 of T14 kids get biglaw. Or if you mean is putting the 15k from your 2L SA towards your debt, yes that's realistic (assuming you get biglaw).

User avatar
MrPapagiorgio
Posts: 1747
Joined: Sat Feb 13, 2010 2:36 am

Re: T 14 with 20 K a year... is it actually affordable??

Postby MrPapagiorgio » Wed Apr 04, 2012 9:45 pm

It is affordable. People do it, and people do it taking on more debt than you are taking on. It seems like a lot of money, but those schools also offer you the best chance at getting a job that can pay off that debt (little circular, but I'm sure you get the point).

sandiego222
Posts: 102
Joined: Sat Dec 03, 2011 4:21 pm

Re: T 14 with 20 K a year... is it actually affordable??

Postby sandiego222 » Wed Apr 04, 2012 9:48 pm

bk1 wrote:You're not factoring in a few things, namely interest and tuition increases.

But 100k-ish debt for a T14 is very reasonable. Even in the worst case scenario you end up at a small firm making around 50k/year, you will still be able to pay off your debt within 10 years.

And yes, around 1/2 of T14 kids get biglaw. Or if you mean is putting the 15k from your 2L SA towards your debt, yes that's realistic (assuming you get biglaw).


Yeah, I know there will be interest on it... that's part of why I'm checking to see. If 100 is reasonable/ something people do a lot, that makes me feel better about it. I'm definitely shooting for biglaw (and if that doesn't work out, probably go for PI work and get on a track for loan forgiveness)


My question was about putting summer associate money to biglaw. At first I was panicked at the idea of 150, but I'm thinking of ways that it will actually be less (begging parents, summer associate work, personal savings, etc)
Last edited by sandiego222 on Thu Apr 05, 2012 8:47 am, edited 2 times in total.

User avatar
Elston Gunn
Posts: 3444
Joined: Mon Jul 18, 2011 4:09 pm

Re: T 14 with 20 K a year... is it actually affordable??

Postby Elston Gunn » Wed Apr 04, 2012 9:54 pm

sandiego222 wrote:
bk1 wrote:You're not factoring in a few things, namely interest and tuition increases.

But 100k-ish debt for a T14 is very reasonable. Even in the worst case scenario you end up at a small firm making around 50k/year, you will still be able to pay off your debt within 10 years.

And yes, around 1/2 of T14 kids get biglaw. Or if you mean is putting the 15k from your 2L SA towards your debt, yes that's realistic (assuming you get biglaw).



Yeah, I know there will be interest on it... that's part of why I'm checking to see. If 100 is reasonable/ something people do a lot, that makes me feel better about it. I'm definitely shooting for biglaw (and if that doesn't work out, probably go for PI work and get on a track for loan forgiveness)

My question was about putting summer associate money to biglaw. At first I was panicked at the idea of 150, but I'm thinking of ways that it will actually be less (begging parents, summer associate work, personal savings, etc)


(0L caveat) Whereas most people should be worried way more, you should chill. $100K debt from a T14 is a great place to be, all things considered.

User avatar
bk1
Posts: 18410
Joined: Sun Mar 14, 2010 7:06 pm

Re: T 14 with 20 K a year... is it actually affordable??

Postby bk1 » Wed Apr 04, 2012 9:55 pm

sandiego222 wrote:Yeah, I know there will be interest on it... that's part of why I'm checking to see. If 100 is reasonable/ something people do a lot, that makes me feel better about it. I'm definitely shooting for biglaw (and if that doesn't work out, probably go for PI work and get on a track for loan forgiveness)


Most people on this site are comfortable taking out 250k for a T14. 100k is quite a good deal and a better deal than the vast majority of people on this site or in the T14 generally get. The average law school indebtedness is around 125k and that factors in all the cheap state schools whereas the T14 are all very expensive.

User avatar
sunynp
Posts: 1899
Joined: Tue May 24, 2011 2:06 pm

Re: T 14 with 20 K a year... is it actually affordable??

Postby sunynp » Wed Apr 04, 2012 10:16 pm

bk1 wrote:
sandiego222 wrote:Yeah, I know there will be interest on it... that's part of why I'm checking to see. If 100 is reasonable/ something people do a lot, that makes me feel better about it. I'm definitely shooting for biglaw (and if that doesn't work out, probably go for PI work and get on a track for loan forgiveness)


Most people on this site are comfortable taking out 250k for a T14. 100k is quite a good deal and a better deal than the vast majority of people on this site or in the T14 generally get. The average law school indebtedness is around 125k and that factors in all the cheap state schools whereas the T14 are all very expensive.


Most people on this site are comfortable doing this. But I would think seriously about it.I would never take on more than $200,000 of debt. I probably would never go above $100,000. I think most of the people here don't really understand the consequences of having to deal with 6 figures of debt long term. If one thing goes wrong, if you don't get biglaw, or if you lose your job for some reason (see for example Dewey, which is now cutting 5-6% of its attorneys) you will be in trouble for the next 25 years of your life. The risk is really high. I honestly don't think that most people have any clue as to the risk they are taking, even though they think they do, people tend to assume they will get a biglaw job and everything will be great.

You need to look at the specific employment opportunities from your school. I wouldn't assume that half the people from your school get biglaw. The numbers don't really support that for each school. And if you don't get biglaw, what is your backup plan?

See the numbers posted today for Michigan in the unemployment thread. viewtopic.php?f=1&t=181723 (note: I mention Michigan only because the data just came out today.)
Last edited by sunynp on Wed Apr 04, 2012 10:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

ahnhub
Posts: 578
Joined: Fri Jun 10, 2011 3:14 pm

Re: T 14 with 20 K a year... is it actually affordable??

Postby ahnhub » Wed Apr 04, 2012 10:24 pm

I would guess average indebtedness at T-14 is well over 150K. 60K total scholarship is a good outcome for T-14 applicants, and that still puts you over 150K everywhere.

User avatar
Nelson
Posts: 2061
Joined: Thu Feb 03, 2011 12:43 am

Re: T 14 with 20 K a year... is it actually affordable??

Postby Nelson » Wed Apr 04, 2012 10:29 pm

sunynp wrote:I probably would never go above $100,000.

"Full ride or don't go" eh?

sandiego222
Posts: 102
Joined: Sat Dec 03, 2011 4:21 pm

Re: T 14 with 20 K a year... is it actually affordable??

Postby sandiego222 » Wed Apr 04, 2012 10:36 pm

Nelson wrote:
sunynp wrote:I probably would never go above $100,000.

"Full ride or don't go" eh?



.... I'm only getting 20 K / year, and as I figured, even with only 10 K / year family contribution, it still comes out to about 100 if you factor in summer associate work (assuming one actually hits the biglaw path)

User avatar
TUP
Posts: 255
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 1:00 am

Re: T 14 with 20 K a year... is it actually affordable??

Postby TUP » Wed Apr 04, 2012 10:39 pm

Nelson wrote:
sunynp wrote:I probably would never go above $100,000.

"Full ride or don't go" eh?


Or save up while working and pay down living expenses that way. Pretty sure those that don't work between undergrad and law school are in the minority at this point.

Sticker anywhere seems crazy to me.

User avatar
sunynp
Posts: 1899
Joined: Tue May 24, 2011 2:06 pm

Re: T 14 with 20 K a year... is it actually affordable??

Postby sunynp » Thu Apr 05, 2012 7:45 am

sandiego222 wrote:
bk1 wrote:You're not factoring in a few things, namely interest and tuition increases.

But 100k-ish debt for a T14 is very reasonable. Even in the worst case scenario you end up at a small firm making around 50k/year, you will still be able to pay off your debt within 10 years.

And yes, around 1/2 of T14 kids get biglaw. Or if you mean is putting the 15k from your 2L SA towards your debt, yes that's realistic (assuming you get biglaw).



Yeah, I know there will be interest on it... that's part of why I'm checking to see. If 100 is reasonable/ something people do a lot, that makes me feel better about it. I'm definitely shooting for biglaw (and if that doesn't work out, probably go for PI work and get on a track for loan forgiveness)

My question was about putting summer associate money to biglaw. At first I was panicked at the idea of 150, but I'm thinking of ways that it will actually be less (begging parents, summer associate work, personal savings, etc)


I missed this when reading your post. Please be careful with this assumption. PI does not look kindly on people who miss biglaw and only look for PI jobs when that doesn't work out. Interviewers look for commitment to PI, they don't want to be a place for biglaw rejects to work off their loans, in part because you won't be happy with the work. Also note that there are not a lot of these jobs, They can be just as difficult, or more difficult than biglaw to get. The government has cut back hiring in a massive way (even AG offices are taking people as volunteers to work), PI organizations have lost funding over the recession.

Please do some more research on this site regarding PI law, or start a thread about using PI as a backup plan to not getting biglaw.

User avatar
FlanAl
Posts: 1474
Joined: Fri Mar 12, 2010 4:53 pm

Re: T 14 with 20 K a year... is it actually affordable??

Postby FlanAl » Thu Apr 05, 2012 8:29 am

just wanted to add to the PI is kind of tougher to get than big law. And I just want to clarify something really quick. When everyone says 250k is that because the 210k actually accrues 40k in interest over three years??? SOme one please explain me!

bobbyh1919
Posts: 560
Joined: Fri Nov 11, 2011 9:40 pm

Re: T 14 with 20 K a year... is it actually affordable??

Postby bobbyh1919 » Thu Apr 05, 2012 9:17 am

I'm in the exact same position, happens to be a T-10 so that helps a little I suppose, but I'm not too too worried about it. I've calculated a total COA at around $155K, figure I can keep the actual debt coming out of that at around $115K. If you look at the number of students who are BigLaw + A3 Clerkship + LRAP qualifying PI job at these schools, you wind up with great odds of being to pay off your loans within a reasonable time frame.

User avatar
sunynp
Posts: 1899
Joined: Tue May 24, 2011 2:06 pm

Re: T 14 with 20 K a year... is it actually affordable??

Postby sunynp » Thu Apr 05, 2012 9:26 am

bobbyh1919 wrote:I'm in the exact same position, happens to be a T-10 so that helps a little I suppose, but I'm not too too worried about it. I've calculated a total COA at around $155K, figure I can keep the actual debt coming out of that at around $115K. If you look at the number of students who are BigLaw + A3 Clerkship + LRAP qualifying PI job at these schools, you wind up with great odds of being to pay off your loans within a reasonable time frame.


I'm just curious. What odds are great odds of paying back $115,000? What is the risk level you are willing to take? What will you do if you are on the downside of those odds? There is a significant number of people who don't get these jobs. So what is your plan if you are one of them? And most important, how reliable are the employment statistics you are using?

You don't know what your grades in law school will be. You may be out of the running for biglaw after 1L. I have seen it, it happens. People who are counting on biglaw don't get it. That is a fact. What will you do if you don't make it?

I don't know the odds of getting a PI job if you have not shown any interest in PI before you went to law school.(I am not a PI person.) I think they are low. I'm not sure that just lumping these very different jobs together and coming up with a total, as if you have an equal chance at all of them, is a good idea.

User avatar
bk1
Posts: 18410
Joined: Sun Mar 14, 2010 7:06 pm

Re: T 14 with 20 K a year... is it actually affordable??

Postby bk1 » Thu Apr 05, 2012 11:21 am

FlanAl wrote:just wanted to add to the PI is kind of tougher to get than big law. And I just want to clarify something really quick. When everyone says 250k is that because the 210k actually accrues 40k in interest over three years??? SOme one please explain me!


Yes 250k is at-graduation debt due to the accrual of interest.

bobbyh1919
Posts: 560
Joined: Fri Nov 11, 2011 9:40 pm

Re: T 14 with 20 K a year... is it actually affordable??

Postby bobbyh1919 » Thu Apr 05, 2012 4:49 pm

sunynp wrote:
bobbyh1919 wrote:I'm in the exact same position, happens to be a T-10 so that helps a little I suppose, but I'm not too too worried about it. I've calculated a total COA at around $155K, figure I can keep the actual debt coming out of that at around $115K. If you look at the number of students who are BigLaw + A3 Clerkship + LRAP qualifying PI job at these schools, you wind up with great odds of being to pay off your loans within a reasonable time frame.


I'm just curious. What odds are great odds of paying back $115,000? What is the risk level you are willing to take? What will you do if you are on the downside of those odds? There is a significant number of people who don't get these jobs. So what is your plan if you are one of them? And most important, how reliable are the employment statistics you are using?

You don't know what your grades in law school will be. You may be out of the running for biglaw after 1L. I have seen it, it happens. People who are counting on biglaw don't get it. That is a fact. What will you do if you don't make it?

I don't know the odds of getting a PI job if you have not shown any interest in PI before you went to law school.(I am not a PI person.) I think they are low. I'm not sure that just lumping these very different jobs together and coming up with a total, as if you have an equal chance at all of them, is a good idea.


I'm not going to go back and find the exact figures and I'm not sure you'd even accept them anyway, but of course we're just talking about odds here. Obviously some kids will get jobs they want and others will not, so if you want to go to law school all you can do is put yourself in the best position to succeed and then work your ass off when you get there. If a 40% discount at a MVPB school isn't worth the odds, then there are very few good options out there. I would say a vast majority of students graduating from T-10 schools wind up in a position that allows them to pay back their loans in a reasonable amount of time, assuming we're not talking about those who are paying sticker or close to it.

User avatar
hung jury
Posts: 159
Joined: Tue Dec 27, 2011 1:52 am

Re: T 14 with 20 K a year... is it actually affordable??

Postby hung jury » Sat Apr 07, 2012 3:36 am

sunynp wrote:
bobbyh1919 wrote:I'm in the exact same position, happens to be a T-10 so that helps a little I suppose, but I'm not too too worried about it. I've calculated a total COA at around $155K, figure I can keep the actual debt coming out of that at around $115K. If you look at the number of students who are BigLaw + A3 Clerkship + LRAP qualifying PI job at these schools, you wind up with great odds of being to pay off your loans within a reasonable time frame.


I'm just curious. What odds are great odds of paying back $115,000? What is the risk level you are willing to take? What will you do if you are on the downside of those odds? There is a significant number of people who don't get these jobs. So what is your plan if you are one of them? And most important, how reliable are the employment statistics you are using?

You don't know what your grades in law school will be. You may be out of the running for biglaw after 1L. I have seen it, it happens. People who are counting on biglaw don't get it. That is a fact. What will you do if you don't make it?

I don't know the odds of getting a PI job if you have not shown any interest in PI before you went to law school.(I am not a PI person.) I think they are low. I'm not sure that just lumping these very different jobs together and coming up with a total, as if you have an equal chance at all of them, is a good idea.


I'm on the pessimistic side of things when it comes to the legal market but I'd be pretty surprised if anything approaching 10% of students at t10 schools couldn't manage 115k debt. It might call for certain sacrifices (e.g., living in a low cost area, delaying kids), but when it comes to meeting payments on the range of possible salary scenarios the difference between 115k and 250k is massive. 115k is a struggle for a small law lawyer starting out but it is at least doable if you can maintain employment (and the vast majority of t10 grads can); with 250k you're betting on (a) biglaw AND (b) not flaming out of biglaw too early. Compound interest is a bitch.

admisionquestion
Posts: 473
Joined: Sun Sep 26, 2010 12:16 am

Re: T 14 with 20 K a year... is it actually affordable??

Postby admisionquestion » Sat Apr 07, 2012 3:48 am

2 more factors to consider:

1. Though you cannot discharge student loan debt--its not as though they shoot you if you fail to pay... So the question is not is it doable but what sort of QOL am i sacrificing it I gamble and lose? What are your alternatives? Do you want to be a lawyer?

2. This question is a bit wrong---t14 is NOT a real thing. GULC or Cornel is a legit school (as are lots of t20's) but determining if GULC is worth it at 100K debt is a LOT different than determining if Penn is worth it... Penn places about 20% better into biglaw or A3. 20% is a big shift in the odds...




Return to “Financial Aid”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest