Define "Sticker"

Discuss various money matters here. Loans (federal and private), scholarships, lottery winnings, or other school finance related information and queries.
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Tiago Splitter
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Re: Define "Sticker"

Postby Tiago Splitter » Wed Nov 30, 2011 6:29 pm

InGoodFaith wrote:
IAFG wrote:Yes. That's the problem. There's not really much middle ground. It's not QUITE as grim as that, but it's close.


http://abovethelaw.com/2010/07/nalp-gives-more-information-on-expected-lawyer-salary/

Keep in mind, this is for salaries REPORTED. Obviously, people that make big cash probably have more of an incentive to report. But as you can see, there's a bimodal distribution.

bimodal.jpg


Even before I realized that schools use fuzzy math to come up with median salary numbers the bimodal distribution graph gave me serious pause. That thing should be required viewing for anyone coming to this site.

OP: Being in six figures of debt requires that you finish near the right side of that graph. At that point it really doesn't matter whether sticker price includes COL loans or not. Conversely, you'll be fine if you take on quite a bit more debt if you do end up hitting the biglaw lottery.

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stingray
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Re: Define "Sticker"

Postby stingray » Wed Nov 30, 2011 6:40 pm

Tiago Splitter wrote:
InGoodFaith wrote:
IAFG wrote:Yes. That's the problem. There's not really much middle ground. It's not QUITE as grim as that, but it's close.


http://abovethelaw.com/2010/07/nalp-gives-more-information-on-expected-lawyer-salary/

Keep in mind, this is for salaries REPORTED. Obviously, people that make big cash probably have more of an incentive to report. But as you can see, there's a bimodal distribution.

bimodal.jpg


Even before I realized that schools use fuzzy math to come up with median salary numbers the bimodal distribution graph gave me serious pause. That thing should be required viewing for anyone coming to this site.

OP: Being in six figures of debt requires that you finish near the right side of that graph. At that point it really doesn't matter whether sticker price includes COL loans or not. Conversely, you'll be fine if you take on quite a bit more debt if you do end up hitting the biglaw lottery.


That graph is indeed scary. I wonder if that information is available for each school individually? I have a TTTT school close to where I live, and I'm confident that everyone graduating from there makes very, very, little money. I wonder how much that sort of thing skews the numbers as a whole?

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stingray
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Re: Define "Sticker"

Postby stingray » Wed Nov 30, 2011 6:42 pm

stingray wrote:OP: Being in six figures of debt requires that you finish near the right side of that graph. At that point it really doesn't matter whether sticker price includes COL loans or not.

Great point, and exactly the kind of answer that I was looking for.

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Tiago Splitter
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Re: Define "Sticker"

Postby Tiago Splitter » Wed Nov 30, 2011 6:45 pm

stingray wrote:That graph is indeed scary. I wonder if that information is available for each school individually? I have a TTTT school close to where I live, and I'm confident that everyone graduating from there makes very, very, little money. I wonder how much that sort of thing skews the numbers as a whole?


http://www.lawschooltransparency.com

Not perfect, but easily the best we have.

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JamMasterJ
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Re: Define "Sticker"

Postby JamMasterJ » Wed Nov 30, 2011 6:50 pm

bk1 wrote:
IAFG wrote:
stingray wrote:
InGoodFaith wrote:Full tuition (even without COL) is to be avoided at GW :shock:

Please elaborate. Not that I don't believe you, I just hear that about a lot of schools, but I never hear the specifics. Are the job prospects that bad?
I'm leaning towards Tulane, mainly because I am cheap--probably to a fault. But I genuinely want to go to George Washington. It really does concern me when people say that it is not worth the price, and I would be lying if I didn't say that hearing stuff like that, even from anonymous strangers on TLS, wasn't affecting my decion. But I want to know why it isn't worth the price.
And I know that "worth the price" can mean different things to people in different circumstances. Here are my circumstances: 1)I want to be a good lawyer, so I want to go to a good school for my numbers, and 2) being a recent History grad, my current job prospects look like $0 a year, so even bad job prospects may seem good to me.

Is there a quick 1-pager summing up the basic TLS philosophy on this shit we could start linking to? With links to hiring stats or something? Because I don't even know how to start at ground 0 like this.


I tried it once. It was meh.

I just reskimmed that. A lot of the stuff you say is actually too generous to schools from 10-20 WRT debt

headandshoulderos
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Re: Define "Sticker"

Postby headandshoulderos » Wed Nov 30, 2011 6:57 pm

stingray wrote:
vanwinkle wrote:
stingray wrote:This is why nobody heeds the warnings, everything is hyperbole.

Here's the core of the problem, in this errant sentence.

Nobody heeds the warnings because they mistake legit warnings for hyperbole. Hyperbole refers to exaggeration beyond the truth. A lot of warnings are harsh and dire, but they're still accurate. People instinctively want to dismiss extreme-sounding warnings and seek more reassuring responses, but that's a huge mistake when things actually are extreme. They tune out the truth because it sounds so terrible they can't imagine it being true.

It's not hyperbole; things just actually are that bad.

I know it's bad out there. I was making reference to the statement that only 5% of lawyers make $50-100k. They admitted that it isn't true, but said that it was still ok to say it because it makes the point that you either make 160k or peanuts.


You DO make either 160k or peanuts. My 5% stat was about entry level positions at that amount, and given that those middle of the road jobs are HIGHLY geographic, at GW it's probably not far off from 5% making a reasonable midlaw salary. Move the bottom end up to 60k if it makes you feel better. It's not about how may lawyers are making 50k-100k, it's about how many ENTRY LEVEL positions there are at that level for GW grads. Not many. The point is, GW at sticker is a terrible investment. You sound like the typical 0L who came on here to be convinced it WASN'T and like vanwinkle said, would rather paint the extreme market situation as hyperbole.

I don't care if you think I'm rude or even wrong or even the biggest douche in the universe, because like I said--reality will be harsh enough on most of the people who take GW at sticker as it is.

And yea, obviously 60k for cost of living is marginal when tuition alone is over 120k at GW. Law schools like GW are selling a shitty project. They make their living off of convincing people to gamble their future on the hope that THEY will be the one to buck the trend.

It's common to think if you strike out OCI it's easy to get a midlaw job paying 50k-100k. The point is, it's even harder than biglaw. That's all I was trying to say. take it or leave it - not my problem.

Also, you probably haven't looked at a debt calculator. You are looking at 1.5k-2k a MONTH payments on your loans for 10 years. Try doing that when you make 50k. That is close to half your monthly salary. Don't like the picture I'm painting? Be smart and don't go.

headandshoulderos
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Re: Define "Sticker"

Postby headandshoulderos » Wed Nov 30, 2011 7:01 pm

stingray wrote:
headandshoulderos wrote:If you can't figure out that GW at sticker is a bad decision, you deserve the consequences.

Thank you!
On a completely unrelated note, I wonder if bad job prospects are somehow more prevalent for people with zero tact, and who are, all in all, unpleasant individuals that no one would want to hire after an OCI. Once again, completely unrelated.


Sticks and stones bro. I'm only trying to help. And anecdotally, since I have a job, you are wrong again.

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IAFG
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Re: Define "Sticker"

Postby IAFG » Wed Nov 30, 2011 7:03 pm

headandshoulderos wrote:
stingray wrote:
headandshoulderos wrote:If you can't figure out that GW at sticker is a bad decision, you deserve the consequences.

Thank you!
On a completely unrelated note, I wonder if bad job prospects are somehow more prevalent for people with zero tact, and who are, all in all, unpleasant individuals that no one would want to hire after an OCI. Once again, completely unrelated.


Sticks and stones bro. I'm only trying to help. And anecdotally, since I have a job, you are wrong again.

If I tried to make a list of all the law students I know who are unemployably unpleasant and yet have SAs...

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bk1
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Re: Define "Sticker"

Postby bk1 » Wed Nov 30, 2011 7:46 pm

JamMasterJ wrote:I just reskimmed that. A lot of the stuff you say is actually too generous to schools from 10-20 WRT debt


Agreed. IIRC at the time I decided to be generous rather than say something more critical that would have ended in bickering.

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Grizz
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Re: Define "Sticker"

Postby Grizz » Wed Nov 30, 2011 8:10 pm

Greetings,

Use context clues to figure out the meaning of words and phrases!

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JamMasterJ
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Re: Define "Sticker"

Postby JamMasterJ » Wed Nov 30, 2011 8:26 pm

Grizz wrote:Greetings,

Use context clues to figure out the meaning of words and phrases!

knew someone would post this. Had to assume it would be Grizz :lol: :lol: :lol:

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stingray
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Re: Define "Sticker"

Postby stingray » Thu Dec 01, 2011 12:56 am

Thanks to those who took a crack at answering the question. The graph was helpful, some of you offered some good insight into the whole COL question, and BK187s guide was helpful as well. What I would be doing is actually pretty much on par with those suggestions--not much more than 100k in debt in a geographic area where I would be willing to practice. Still leaning towards Tulane, but you never know, I may get money at GW.
For the stereotypical TLS guy who took my question as an opportunity to insult my intelligence, thanks for preparing me for a 3 year education surrounded by the most concentrated group of d-bags I'll ever encounter. :D

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IAFG
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Re: Define "Sticker"

Postby IAFG » Thu Dec 01, 2011 12:59 am

stingray wrote:Thanks to those who took a crack at answering the question. The graph was helpful, some of you offered some good insight into the whole COL question, and BK187s guide was helpful as well. What I would be doing is actually pretty much on par with those suggestions--not much more than 100k in debt in a geographic area where I would be willing to practice. Still leaning towards Tulane, but you never know, I may get money at GW.
For the stereotypical TLS guy who took my question as an opportunity to insult my intelligence, thanks for preparing me for a 3 year education surrounded by the most concentrated group of d-bags I'll ever encounter. :D

Wait, you would STILL be six figs deep for Tulane? Retake, bro. RETAKE.

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Tiago Splitter
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Re: Define "Sticker"

Postby Tiago Splitter » Thu Dec 01, 2011 1:02 am

IAFG wrote:
stingray wrote:Thanks to those who took a crack at answering the question. The graph was helpful, some of you offered some good insight into the whole COL question, and BK187s guide was helpful as well. What I would be doing is actually pretty much on par with those suggestions--not much more than 100k in debt in a geographic area where I would be willing to practice. Still leaning towards Tulane, but you never know, I may get money at GW.
For the stereotypical TLS guy who took my question as an opportunity to insult my intelligence, thanks for preparing me for a 3 year education surrounded by the most concentrated group of d-bags I'll ever encounter. :D

Wait, you would STILL be six figs deep for Tulane? Retake, bro. RETAKE.


Nah he means GW.

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stingray
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Re: Define "Sticker"

Postby stingray » Thu Dec 01, 2011 1:05 am

No, I have a 30k a year scholly at Tulane. I think I could actually graduate from there with zero debt, if I work a little through school.

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IAFG
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Re: Define "Sticker"

Postby IAFG » Thu Dec 01, 2011 1:07 am

ohhhhh okay sorry.

headandshoulderos
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Re: Define "Sticker"

Postby headandshoulderos » Thu Dec 01, 2011 1:08 am

stingray wrote:No, I have a 30k a year scholly at Tulane. I think I could actually graduate from there with zero debt, if I work a little through school.


The geographic area thing doesn't apply to GW. It's in DC, which is one of the most saturated legal markets with students from top schools all across america trying to get in.

Tulane is another story. But taking debt at GW and planning to strike out of OCI and then "sticking to the region" is a surefire way to get pwnd.




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