Debt Ceiling Deal on Loans Forum

[Verity]

The result of a "global economy" is that US wages and living standards fall to little above 3rd world levels, and jobs even for highly educated people are few and far between. It's the systemic gutting of what we used to call the "middle class."

This may be a transitional period, but the depressing part is that even if the "efficient market" straightens itself out, we'll all probably be long gone by then.

TCR is to move to Turkey.

[ahduth]

So the answer is to stop public funding of education? That... kind of feels like giving up. This is the United States of America. I feel like we should be able to have the best engineers in the world. Maybe you're telling me that era is over.

It is over, and has been for some time. It started under Reagan and NAFTA sure didn't help. Of course the idea was that we didn't need all these grimy old factories and such- the 3rd world serfs of the world could stich together our Nikes and solder together our radios & TVs for a nickle an hour.

None of it would matter because Americans would all become "educated" via college and grad school and push meaningless, voluminous stacks of shitpaper from one side of a cubicle to another. But now SURPRISE! --- the serfs of the 3rd world also have education now, and will push that same shitpaper for a fraction of what Americans need to survive. This country's best days are simply behind it, and anyone who thinks otherwise is delusional or in deep denial/

With regards to law, it was really only an "elite" profession (as opposed to a dime a dozen, churn n' burn industry) from about the end of WWII to probably the very early 90s. Prior to WWII most lawyers were trained on the job and requirements to practice were pretty lax in most states.

After WWII we saw the rise of the ABA lawschool & bar'zam model, where no one could practice w/out being pretty smart. There weren't many schools, and admission standards were high. Once admitted, upwards of 50% of the class would be flunked out after 1st year. The supply/demand metrics were excellent, and thus most lawyers earned a comfortable upper class living and didn't really have to work terribly hard. Practice involved a lot more common law and drafting original arguments, not cut n' paste slop like we see today in insurance defense and other gutter practice areas.

But that model couldn't last forever. Student loan cash was easy and flowing fast, and the TTT's started popping up all over the place. What was once a true profession with high standards and low supply quickly morphed into an absurd oversupply, with a drastic reduction in the quality of the bar. People who could barely read & write flooded the NYLS, Cooleys, Brooklyns, 'Bozos and such of the world, and why flunk anyone out when that would end the student loan gravy train? The bar exam was likewise dumbed down, since it was too hard on "minorities" and people with learning disabilities, etc.

Now the party is pretty much over. It would take closing down 75% of the current schools and probably almost a generation to cull the oversupply and get the metrics back to a reasonable level. But that's unlikely to happen since the ABA will accredit anyone who opens a law school in the spare bay of his garage. Hell, they just green lighted a Cooley campus in Florida of all places. The Cooleys of the world are run by pretty smart businesspeople who see the massive, risk-free profits out there for the taking. No expensive labs, no equipment, nothing but a few big rooms and a few Biglaw washouts to piss away 3 years with time-wasting Socratic bullshit and a few very easy exams.

By 2020 there will be a Cooley campus in half the US states, and one lawyer for about every 10 citizens. Stop and ask yourself how many lawyers you or your family have needed in your life? Biglaw will always be around in some form, but for everyone else things are grim indeed.

Eh, look, I'm not arguing the legal education industry is properly structured. It's more about whether or not we're willing to spend the money to put people through school for stuff that does matter. Engineers. Nurses. Software developers. I mean, you want to look at something that doesn't make a lot of sense for the country, watch a physics PhD get his degree and walk straight to Citadel to run arbitrage programs. I understand the hard right Republicans want to starve the beast, and me being unhappy with that makes me a godless communist, but I'm unconvinced this country's best days are behind it.

[Verity]

The whole "America's best days are behind it" is very narrow-minded. You can say that the post-war period boom was it's best days; but for who? There was more poverty, less social mobility, more discrimination, etc. Relative to the world, yes, we were the top dog, and we still are. If we look at metrics in absolute rather than relative terms, things are not nearly as bad as they're made out to be.

But just because there is an oversupply of lawyers, that's hardly sufficient evidence to say our future will get worse and worse in the long term. I believe in our people, our infrastructure, and our national spirit. Moving to a third-world country is for sissies and wash-outs.

You can say that the debt and global economics are dragging us down. In the short to mid-term, yes, that's true. But if we educate people and they get smart about what they should do with their lives, things will work out like they always have.

[areyouinsane]

But just because there is an oversupply of lawyers, that's hardly sufficient evidence to say our future will get worse and worse in the long term. I believe in our people, our infrastructure, and our national spirit. Moving to a third-world country is for sissies and wash-outs

.

Our "people" are a morbidly obese, dumbed-down gaggle of anti-depressant popping TV addicts up to their hairline in credit card debt and underwater mortgages. Most earn wages that, when adjusted for inflation, are lower than what the avg. worker made in 1972. Only endless bales of debt made the American Dream circa 1970s to 2008 possible. Now the easy credit train's wheels have come off. The party is done, but the hangover will last for decades.

LOL at our "infrastructure." The Tappan Zee Bridge could collapse any day now. Ditto the Pulaski Skyway, Goethals, and most other rusting bridges etc, some of which are 80+ years old and have been neglected for decades. With Peak Oil bearing down on us, what's the use of repairing this crap anyway? Not gonna be much traffic when gas hits 7 or 8 bucks a gallon, since most people can barely afford to fill up now. They just jacked up all the Hudson River tolls to $12 a pop too. Of course, in a country where toll both attendants and prison screws are paid 3 X what public defenders are, WTF do you expect?

Our "national spirit"? ROTFL! What's that, spending weekends at the NASCAR oval with 100 K other white trash morons watching other white trash morons waste fuel and tires driving around in a circle? Or following the NFL like a religion, swilling BBQ wings while hulking millionaires smash into each other while other millionaries watch from the sidelines?

Funniest of all are sites like this, populated by children in their early 20s who are convinced beyond all doubt that sitting for 70+ hours a week shuffling thru bales of the dullest, driest, most pointless shitpaper mankind has ever produced is some kind of "success." The disputes of the future will likely be settled with fists and small arms, not piles of cut n' pasted pigslop "pleadings" and other nonsense. Take a good look at what's going on in Europe, and think how much worse that scenario will be when it visits a US city near you. Remember, almost none of those wankers have access to firearms. Here in the US the underclasses are armed to the teeth and getting more & more pissed off by the minute as their jobs, savings, and "careers" swirl down the shitter while the Lawyer-In-Chief (who was at least smart enough never to actually practice in this gutter of an industry) takes 3 vacations a month and hosts 50 K a plate fundraisers where Biglaw bootlickers and other suck-ups and frauds wash his balls and secure their place in line to be allocated the rapidly dwindling amount of handouts & goodies from the dot.gov.

Pathetic.

[ndirish2010]

You can't leave the country soon enough. Pathetic.

[areyouinsane]

DOW down 475 points so far today fyi.

[Verity]

So go and jump ship then. I hear Turkey's lovely this time of year. Enjoy the third-world, but don't call when you're water's not running.

[03121202698008]

So go and jump ship then. I hear Turkey's lovely this time of year. Enjoy the third-world, but don't call when you're water's not running.

Actually, Turkey sucks this time of year...I lived there for a bit.

Does anyone know if subsidized loans already out will continue to be subsidized while in school?

[Verity]

So go and jump ship then. I hear Turkey's lovely this time of year. Enjoy the third-world, but don't call when you're water's not running.

Actually, Turkey sucks this time of year...I lived there for a bit.

Does anyone know if subsidized loans already out will continue to be subsidized while in school?

Sarcasm.

Yes they will. They change next year.

[areyouinsane]

LOL Verity aren't you at or heading to some no-name TTTT in like Indiana?

[Verity]

LOL Verity aren't you at or heading to some no-name TTTT in like Indiana?

IU-B, full scholarship, actually.

[ahduth]

Funniest of all are sites like this, populated by children in their early 20s who are convinced beyond all doubt that sitting for 70+ hours a week shuffling thru bales of the dullest, driest, most pointless shitpaper mankind has ever produced is some kind of "success." The disputes of the future will likely be settled with fists and small arms, not piles of cut n' pasted pigslop "pleadings" and other nonsense. Take a good look at what's going on in Europe, and think how much worse that scenario will be when it visits a US city near you. Remember, almost none of those wankers have access to firearms. Here in the US the underclasses are armed to the teeth and getting more & more pissed off by the minute as their jobs, savings, and "careers" swirl down the shitter while the Lawyer-In-Chief (who was at least smart enough never to actually practice in this gutter of an industry) takes 3 vacations a month and hosts 50 K a plate fundraisers where Biglaw bootlickers and other suck-ups and frauds wash his balls and secure their place in line to be allocated the rapidly dwindling amount of handouts & goodies from the dot.gov.

Pathetic.

Look buddy, I'm pretty far from a K-JD. It looks like I'll be as old as a couple of my professors. I've seen it, and I'm still quite simply unconvinced that we can't do better. I mean, I could tell you that I'd like to blame Grover Norquist, but I'm not trying to make this a political fighting match. All I'm saying is that it's not over for America.

[Verity]

areyouinsane never learned about exaggerated language when he took the LSAT.

[areyouinsane]

Bill Bonner pretty much nails it:

http://dailyreckoning.com/zombies-born- ... -spending/


You're really missing out if you don't read the DR site every day. This dood predicted the housing crash back in early 2005 with his masterpiece tome "Empire of Debt" (co-authored by Addison Wiggin). Bill is also a lawyer (G'Town grad I believe) but like most people with any flair, potential, intelligence or creativity, he never wasted his time pushing bales of makework shitpaper around in some boiler room law firm. He also left the US many years ago, another smart move.

I like the "zombie" theme Bill brings up, esp. when applied to law, which is the ultimate "zombie" industry. 99% of legal work is pointless, and the $$$ expended to push this nonsense cut n' paste dreck and piss away time reading corporate emails and other "e-discovery" nonsense is a dollar not going to R&D or shareholder dividends or other productive areas. Law produces nothing, accomplishes nothing, is mind-numbingly dull & tedious, and is absolutely despised even by the majority of the people who practice it. But the big corps are wising up fast, and cutting rates, sending doc review offshore, barring 1st years from working on their cases, etc.

[Verity]

This idiot calls us zombies? He's a zombie. He left his country, rather than staying, trying to make the most of it, and fighting for improvement. Worst of all is he's an opinionated zombie. His equation for success: move to another country with slightly better metrics in some aspects of the economy, and expect your life to be improved somehow.

Why are you exaggerating so much? America has a few problems, but life here isn't even close to the shitstorm you're making it out to be. I'm sorry to tell you that your depressing story isn't the norm. There's no need to ditch America and throw the baby out with the bath water.

[Bronx Bum]

areyouinsane is right on point.

[BeenDidThat]

This is seriously bullshit.

Absolutely. It's time for a change.........Obama 2012

You're so on-point. Obama is, after all, a legislator.

[BeenDidThat]

Bill Bonner pretty much nails it:

http://dailyreckoning.com/zombies-born- ... -spending/


You're really missing out if you don't read the DR site every day. This dood predicted the housing crash back in early 2005 with his masterpiece tome "Empire of Debt" (co-authored by Addison Wiggin). Bill is also a lawyer (G'Town grad I believe) but like most people with any flair, potential, intelligence or creativity, he never wasted his time pushing bales of makework shitpaper around in some boiler room law firm. He also left the US many years ago, another smart move.

I like the "zombie" theme Bill brings up, esp. when applied to law, which is the ultimate "zombie" industry. 99% of legal work is pointless, and the $$$ expended to push this nonsense cut n' paste dreck and piss away time reading corporate emails and other "e-discovery" nonsense is a dollar not going to R&D or shareholder dividends or other productive areas. Law produces nothing, accomplishes nothing, is mind-numbingly dull & tedious, and is absolutely despised even by the majority of the people who practice it. But the big corps are wising up fast, and cutting rates, sending doc review offshore, barring 1st years from working on their cases, etc.

Do you live abroad?

[areyouinsane]

This is my all-time favorite Bill Bonner essay:

http://www.lewrockwell.com/bonner/bonner84.html

How right he is! I'd just add that, almost w/out fail, the WORST presidents are usually lawyers. That's because as a rule lawyers are not very bright or gutsy- if they were, they'd have gone to medical school or started a productive business. They're the ultimate losers of the world, capable only of pushing meaningless bales of paper from one side of a desk to the other. Their "work" produces nothing, accomplishes nothing, and serves only to suck time, money and resources away from members of society who actually have something worthwhile to contribute.

Just take a look at how illogical and downright moronic most laws really are. Behind all these statutes, rules, regulations, and codes is- you guessed it- a LAWYER.

[BeenDidThat]

This is my all-time favorite Bill Bonner essay:

http://www.lewrockwell.com/bonner/bonner84.html

How right he is! I'd just add that, almost w/out fail, the WORST presidents are usually lawyers. That's because as a rule lawyers are not very bright or gutsy- if they were, they'd have gone to medical school or started a productive business. They're the ultimate losers of the world, capable only of pushing meaningless bales of paper from one side of a desk to the other. Their "work" produces nothing, accomplishes nothing, and serves only to suck time, money and resources away from members of society who actually have something worthwhile to contribute.

Just take a look at how illogical and downright moronic most laws really are. Behind all these statutes, rules, regulations, and codes is- you guessed it- a LAWYER.

Oh, okay. You're a flame. Pay my prior post no mind.

[Z3RO]

areyouinsane spent his entire legal "career" in doc review, so it's no surprise that he has a less than rosy view of the profession.

[Bronx Bum]

areyouinsane spent his entire legal "career" in doc review, so it's no surprise that he has a less than rosy view of the profession.

He worked in a small firm also. How is that doc review?

[Z3RO]

areyouinsane spent his entire legal "career" in doc review, so it's no surprise that he has a less than rosy view of the profession.

He worked in a small firm also. How is that doc review?

My mistake. I wasn't aware that he had worked in a small firm.

[gloriacollins]

You're not reading it right. Law students will have to start paying interest.

yeah yo are right...

[Geon]

The whole "America's best days are behind it" is very narrow-minded. You can say that the post-war period boom was it's best days; but for who? There was more poverty, less social mobility, more discrimination, etc. Relative to the world, yes, we were the top dog, and we still are. If we look at metrics in absolute rather than relative terms, things are not nearly as bad as they're made out to be.

But just because there is an oversupply of lawyers, that's hardly sufficient evidence to say our future will get worse and worse in the long term. I believe in our people, our infrastructure, and our national spirit. Moving to a third-world country is for sissies and wash-outs.

You can say that the debt and global economics are dragging us down. In the short to mid-term, yes, that's true. But if we educate people and they get smart about what they should do with their lives, things will work out like they always have.

Technically real wages were higher in the 70s. Yes there was less social mobility as in a black man couldn't become president of America but there was social mobility in the sense that GM factories in Detroit paid black workers more back then than now.
Lots of poverty was also self selected. There are plenty of white hippies who just smoked dope and sniff coke all day in the back of a van in the 70s and by middle age they end up in some political office or some good management job. This is by far the most educated generation in human history and the fact of the matter is with 50% of these people unable to find meaningful work, it tells you something about the degradation of America. You went from a country where a dope smoke high school drop out could join a firm for having the right attitude to having law degrees and masters not being able to find employment.