Need Based Aid

Discuss various money matters here. Loans (federal and private), scholarships, lottery winnings, or other school finance related information and queries.
r6_philly
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Re: Need Based Aid

Postby r6_philly » Sun Jan 23, 2011 6:51 pm

swc65 wrote:
r6_philly wrote:
URMdan wrote:Bumping this as well. I am anticipating a 0 EFC, and would like an idea of what kind of aid I can expect.


0 also. Would love to hear what someone got from T14 with 0 EFC.



EFC is generally irrelevant. The FAFSA never calculates your parents' income because you are applying to law school and therefore independent, even if you put their info on the form. Most (if not all) law schools will count your parents' info, especially for students that around the typical age of law school applicants.


I use EFC to approximate the state of poorness that we are in. Not only will my parents not able to pay a dollar toward me, I will actually be supporting them.

Miracle
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Re: Need Based Aid

Postby Miracle » Sun Jan 23, 2011 6:53 pm

swc65 wrote:
r6_philly wrote:
URMdan wrote:Bumping this as well. I am anticipating a 0 EFC, and would like an idea of what kind of aid I can expect.


0 also. Would love to hear what someone got from T14 with 0 EFC.



EFC is generally irrelevant. The FAFSA never calculates your parents' income because you are applying to law school and therefore independent, even if you put their info on the form. Most (if not all) law schools will count your parents' info, especially for students that around the typical age of law school applicants.



so how do they determine need based aid?

r6_philly
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Re: Need Based Aid

Postby r6_philly » Sun Jan 23, 2011 6:58 pm

Miracle wrote:so how do they determine need based aid?


Schools have formulas that determines the amount they expect you to finance based on the income and assets of you and your parents. It isn't the same formula as FAFSA/UG Financial aid, but generally if your EFC is 0, you are pretty poor (unless you are deemed independent for FAFSA somehow but not to law schools).

Miracle
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Re: Need Based Aid

Postby Miracle » Sun Jan 23, 2011 7:12 pm

r6_philly wrote:
Miracle wrote:so how do they determine need based aid?


Schools have formulas that determines the amount they expect you to finance based on the income and assets of you and your parents. It isn't the same formula as FAFSA/UG Financial aid, but generally if your EFC is 0, you are pretty poor (unless you are deemed independent for FAFSA somehow but not to law schools).


so how much money does 0 EFC usually generate in need based aid.

r6_philly
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Re: Need Based Aid

Postby r6_philly » Sun Jan 23, 2011 7:22 pm

Miracle wrote:
r6_philly wrote:
Miracle wrote:so how do they determine need based aid?


Schools have formulas that determines the amount they expect you to finance based on the income and assets of you and your parents. It isn't the same formula as FAFSA/UG Financial aid, but generally if your EFC is 0, you are pretty poor (unless you are deemed independent for FAFSA somehow but not to law schools).


so how much money does 0 EFC usually generate in need based aid.


Trying to find out myself. Depends on the school obviously, so I also would like someone from previous cycles to share if willing.

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kapital98
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Re: Need Based Aid

Postby kapital98 » Sun Jan 23, 2011 7:50 pm

r6_philly wrote:0 also. Would love to hear what someone got from T14 with 0 EFC.


Same here :)

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URMdan
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Re: Need Based Aid

Postby URMdan » Sun Jan 23, 2011 8:06 pm

swc65 wrote:
r6_philly wrote:
URMdan wrote:Bumping this as well. I am anticipating a 0 EFC, and would like an idea of what kind of aid I can expect.


0 also. Would love to hear what someone got from T14 with 0 EFC.



EFC is generally irrelevant. The FAFSA never calculates your parents' income because you are applying to law school and therefore independent, even if you put their info on the form. Most (if not all) law schools will count your parents' info, especially for students that around the typical age of law school applicants.



So how does it get calculated?

edit: did not see that the same question was already asked. Would really like to know how much need-based aid I can expect to get though, as it will play a big role as to where I decide to go.

berkeleykel06
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Re: Need Based Aid

Postby berkeleykel06 » Sun Jan 23, 2011 8:16 pm

The only experience I have in the T14 is with UVA, and they told me that they don't give grants based solely on need. I had an EFC of 0 and got nothing. I'm not sure if they would increase the amount of a merit-based scholarship if the person demonstrated need, but I've never heard of this happening.

Outside of the T14, I know that GW generally gives need-based grants. I got $11,000 from them. IIRC their max is like $15,000 per year, but I could be making this up (edit--GW requires parental info when determining grants).

HopefullyLaw
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Re: Need Based Aid

Postby HopefullyLaw » Sun Jan 23, 2011 8:21 pm

I am very new to all of this. What is CollegeBoard and NeedAcces?! I am fearful that I am missing something very important!

bdubs
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Re: Need Based Aid

Postby bdubs » Sun Jan 23, 2011 8:32 pm

The Ivey guide said that "need based" aid was just another way to apportion aid used to attract students that the school wanted to attend. So in that sense "merit" in the broader sense drove most financial aid decisions at Chicago from her perspective. Thinking about this though, Chicago is known as particularly stingy with aid (at least before Rubenstein) so I am not sure how broadly it applies.

I am hoping this helps me, since my FAFSA EFC is much more than I am personally willing to set aside for school. It seems inherently unfair to me to arbitrarily reduce the tuition of someone because their family has limited resources, even when those same people will be earning the same types of salaries that more affluent students will after school.

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URMdan
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Re: Need Based Aid

Postby URMdan » Sun Jan 23, 2011 8:43 pm

bdubs wrote: It seems inherently unfair to me to arbitrarily reduce the tuition of someone because their family has limited resources, even when those same people will be earning the same types of salaries that more affluent students will after school.


Because if that person that has a family with limited resources can't find a job after graduation, they are more fucked than the person with a family that has the resources to support them. The inherent "risk" is not the same for both people.

bdubs
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Re: Need Based Aid

Postby bdubs » Sun Jan 23, 2011 8:45 pm

URMdan wrote:
bdubs wrote: It seems inherently unfair to me to arbitrarily reduce the tuition of someone because their family has limited resources, even when those same people will be earning the same types of salaries that more affluent students will after school.


Because if that person that has a family with limited resources can't find a job after graduation, they are more fucked than the person with a family that has the resources to support them. The inherent "risk" is not the same for both people.


The risk of not finding a job after law school should not be a determining factor in financial aid. If an adcomm believes that someones ex-ante prospects of finding a job after school are low, they shouldn't be admitted in the first place.

The risk of finding a low paying job is generally covered by LRAPs, so that really isn't an issue either.

Edit: I realize this post comes off as presumptuous because I have T14 schools in mind. The debate about job prospects out of lower ranked schools are something for another thread. I don't know much about financial aid policies at schools outside of the T14 so someone else would have to fill in if this is inapplicable.

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URMdan
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Re: Need Based Aid

Postby URMdan » Sun Jan 23, 2011 8:52 pm

bdubs wrote:
URMdan wrote:
bdubs wrote: It seems inherently unfair to me to arbitrarily reduce the tuition of someone because their family has limited resources, even when those same people will be earning the same types of salaries that more affluent students will after school.


Because if that person that has a family with limited resources can't find a job after graduation, they are more fucked than the person with a family that has the resources to support them. The inherent "risk" is not the same for both people.


The risk of not finding a job after law school should not be a determining factor in financial aid. If an adcomm believes that someones ex-ante prospects of finding a job after school are low, they shouldn't be admitted in the first place.


This has no bearing because no adcomm admits a student believing their job prospects after school will be low. Besides, sometimes students aren't awarded loans, in which case tuition must be funded out of pocket (which happens a lot with in-state students). In those types of scenarios, than, equal opportunity would not exist without need-based grants.

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LAWLAW09
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Re: Need Based Aid

Postby LAWLAW09 » Sun Jan 23, 2011 9:12 pm

Many folks have a grossly inaccurate perception of what their need is. That perception probably becomes even less accurate when one is trying to determine their need without knowing the socioeconomic profiles of the other applicants that have also been admitted.

If you're convinced you have a strong case for receiving need-aid and you did not find a way to bring that to the attention of the schools you applied to in your original application (PS, DS, etc), know that there are many applicants who did not make that same mistake.

It's anybody guess as to how many needy applicants have been accepted to any particular school, in any given year, but everyone should probably assume that they are competing for need-aid against applicants that:

- needed an LSAC fee waiver to apply to law school
-convincingly highlighted their low socioeconomic status in their PS &/or DS
-attended a high school that reflects their low socioeconomic status/upbringing
-can fill out a very thorough needaccess form (with their parental information included) without getting nervous or upset

I'm sure there are other factors that go into who and who doesn't get need-aid, but a lot of ppls need will be put into a different context once those factors are included.


To all the needy applicants, good luck.

Miracle
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Re: Need Based Aid

Postby Miracle » Sun Jan 23, 2011 9:18 pm

LAWLAW09 wrote:Many folks have a grossly inaccurate perception of what their need is. That perception probably becomes even less accurate when one is trying to determine their need without knowing the socioeconomic profiles of the other applicants that have also been admitted.

If you're convinced you have a strong case for receiving need-aid and you did not find a way to bring that to the attention of the schools you applied to in your original application (PS, DS, etc), know that there are many applicants who did not make that same mistake.

It's anybody guess as to how many needy applicants have been accepted to any particular school, in any given year, but everyone should probably assume that they are competing for need-aid against applicants that:

- needed an LSAC fee waiver to apply to law school
-convincingly highlighted their low socioeconomic status in their PS &/or DS
-attended a high school that reflects their low socioeconomic status/upbringing
-can fill out a very thorough needaccess form (with their parental information included) without getting nervous or upset

I'm sure there are other factors that go into who and who doesn't get need-aid, but a lot of ppls need will be put into a different context once those factors are included.


To all the needy applicants, good luck.


I'm one of those. I'm poor in every shape and form.

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swc65
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Re: Need Based Aid

Postby swc65 » Sun Jan 23, 2011 9:21 pm

r6_philly wrote:
Miracle wrote:so how do they determine need based aid?


Schools have formulas that determines the amount they expect you to finance based on the income and assets of you and your parents. It isn't the same formula as FAFSA/UG Financial aid, but generally if your EFC is 0, you are pretty poor (unless you are deemed independent for FAFSA somehow but not to law schools).



EVERYONE applying to law school is deemed independent on the FAFSA. Anyone applying to any grad schools is deemed independent. So any school that does not consider a law student independent would be one where your independent for the FAFSA but dependent for the law school. I am pretty certain that all of the T-14 deem you dependent in law school (as in they look at your parents' income). Actually, I don't think that any law school would base their dependency decision on the FAFSA because then, by definition, all of their students would be independent and they would not look into any students' family income. That would just not make any sense since so many people apply to law school after UG and will have little to no income themselves. Some have age cutoffs where others see you as dependent regardless of age. Others give no need based only aid (they say it's a mix of need and merit).

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swc65
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Re: Need Based Aid

Postby swc65 » Sun Jan 23, 2011 9:27 pm

Just to reiterate. EFC= useless on its own.

This is not like UG where it was the primary method of ranking needy students.

r6_philly
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Re: Need Based Aid

Postby r6_philly » Sun Jan 23, 2011 9:36 pm

swc65 wrote:
r6_philly wrote:
Miracle wrote:so how do they determine need based aid?


Schools have formulas that determines the amount they expect you to finance based on the income and assets of you and your parents. It isn't the same formula as FAFSA/UG Financial aid, but generally if your EFC is 0, you are pretty poor (unless you are deemed independent for FAFSA somehow but not to law schools).



EVERYONE applying to law school is deemed independent on the FAFSA. Anyone applying to any grad schools is deemed independent. So any school that does not consider a law student independent would be one where your independent for the FAFSA but dependent for the law school. I am pretty certain that all of the T-14 deem you dependent in law school (as in they look at your parents' income). Actually, I don't think that any law school would base their dependency decision on the FAFSA because then, by definition, all of their students would be independent and they would not look into any students' family income. That would just not make any sense since so many people apply to law school after UG and will have little to no income themselves. Some have age cutoffs where others see you as dependent regardless of age. Others give no need based only aid (they say it's a mix of need and merit).


You are independent if you are over 30 at most if not all T14. I already have direct answers from financial aid offices at 5 of them if you want to dispute that.

r6_philly
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Re: Need Based Aid

Postby r6_philly » Sun Jan 23, 2011 9:43 pm

swc65 wrote:Just to reiterate. EFC= useless on its own.

This is not like UG where it was the primary method of ranking needy students.


I presume most of us who are 0L's are referring to the 0 EFC as our UG 0 EFC since most of us haven't filed 2010 taxes or 2011 FAFSA. So 0 EFC for UG is relevant for most because it also considers family income. It is very unlikely that someone with a UG EFC of 0 will end up being a high-income/worth applicant in law school. Because, if you can show documented estrangement from your parents you can apply for and receive exemptions.

As I said above. I mentioned my UG EFC of 0 to approximate the level of our poorness. I know you really want to win this argument - and trust me, I wish my UG EFC of 0 actually translate into my family being rich, it is just not the case.

EFC may not be a good tool for judging need in law school, but you couldn't possibly suggest another measure without us disclosing here how much my family makes as a whole and how much assets we have...

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swc65
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Re: Need Based Aid

Postby swc65 » Sun Jan 23, 2011 9:57 pm

r6_philly wrote:
swc65 wrote:Just to reiterate. EFC= useless on its own.

This is not like UG where it was the primary method of ranking needy students.


I presume most of us who are 0L's are referring to the 0 EFC as our UG 0 EFC since most of us haven't filed 2010 taxes or 2011 FAFSA. So 0 EFC for UG is relevant for most because it also considers family income. It is very unlikely that someone with a UG EFC of 0 will end up being a high-income/worth applicant in law school. Because, if you can show documented estrangement from your parents you can apply for and receive exemptions.

As I said above. I mentioned my UG EFC of 0 to approximate the level of our poorness. I know you really want to win this argument - and trust me, I wish my UG EFC of 0 actually translate into my family being rich, it is just not the case.

EFC may not be a good tool for judging need in law school, but you couldn't possibly suggest another measure without us disclosing here how much my family makes as a whole and how much assets we have...



LoL I totally understand you. My EFC was 0 in UG and when applying to law school too. I am just saying that law schools, do not use EFC like many UG institutions do. In UG they usually use it rank students by need then dole out the aid. Law schools have their own methodology, for which something like EFC is a component, but probably doesnt track all that well. this is because, many law schools do not even award need based GRANT aid (as another poster said). While others, will award need based grant aid but will mix it in with merit considerations so that two people with the same EFC but different LSAT might get two completely divergent packages. Therefore, it is almost fool's errand to ask what type of aid any particular EFC will bring because law schools vary much more widely with respect to EFC than do UGs. I got the impression that some people were asking what type of aid they could expect with a zero ofc from

r6_philly wrote:
URMdan wrote:Bumping this as well. I am anticipating a 0 EFC, and would like an idea of what kind of aid I can expect.


0 also. Would love to hear what someone got from T14 with 0 EFC.







So need based grant aid will vary at many schools depending on how they calculate income and how they factor in the applicant's numbers (LSAT and GPA). The Gtown poster earlier is probably an example of this. That poster's high numbers for that school, in combination with her need, were probably why s/he received such a great package.

also, I don't doubt the truthfulness of your statements about your finances. I am just saying that your finances (which are reflected by your EFC) are only a small part of what most schools use to determine aid (excluding law schools that have very specific/generous need based aid policies, such as Harvard- they actually give you examples based on income).

ogurty
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Re: Need Based Aid

Postby ogurty » Sun Jan 23, 2011 11:57 pm

As far as I know, most top law schools award need-based aid. For those that do, the FAFSA is completely useless in determining how much you'll get if you're under 30 because it doesn't take into account parents' income. Needaccess, which was used at UCLA, requires parent information for anyone under 30. Here's the list that uses Needaccess (taken from the website):

American University Washington College of Law
Boston College Law School
Boston University School of Law
Brooklyn Law School
Columbia University Law School
Cornell University Law School
Georgetown University Law Center
Harvard Law School
Hofstra University School of Law
New York University School of Law
Northwestern University School of Law
Stanford Law School
Suffolk University Law School
UCLA School of Law
University of California Davis School of Law
University of California Hastings School of Law
University of Chicago Law School
University of the District of Columbia David A. Clarke School of Law
University of Michigan Law School
University of New Mexico School of Law
University of Pennsylvania School of Law
Vanderbilt University Law School
Yale University Law School

As you can see, most of the T14 are listed. I don't know this for sure, but if I had to guess, I'd say that the top schools that don't use Needaccess either don't give fully need-based aid, or have a similiar system of their own; I can't imagine a system that gives need-based aid to unemployed 22-year-olds without asking for their parents' financial info.

As far as I know, the determination of your ability to pay is similar to FAFSA, only parental information needs to be included. I know several people who qualified for need-based aid; but I've never heard of need-based aid over $15k/year. I also know one girl who was able to exclude her parents' info even though she was under 30, because she'd been financially independent for 10 years and rarely spoke to her parents; but she had to fight for it.

r6_philly
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Re: Need Based Aid

Postby r6_philly » Mon Jan 24, 2011 12:02 am

HYS gives need-based more than 15k a year because they don't do merit. for others, around 15k seems reasonable as a max I suppose.

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swc65
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Re: Need Based Aid

Postby swc65 » Mon Jan 24, 2011 1:11 am

r6_philly wrote:HYS gives need-based more than 15k a year because they don't do merit. for others, around 15k seems reasonable as a max I suppose.



The max at CLS is around 70K. I am not sure about other schools though.

r6_philly
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Re: Need Based Aid

Postby r6_philly » Mon Jan 24, 2011 1:28 am

swc65 wrote:
r6_philly wrote:HYS gives need-based more than 15k a year because they don't do merit. for others, around 15k seems reasonable as a max I suppose.



The max at CLS is around 70K. I am not sure about other schools though.


Does getting merit aid preclude you from getting need-based aid at CLS? I guess I will have to wait and stay anxious for a while since each school is different.

Frankie55
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Re: Need Based Aid

Postby Frankie55 » Tue Jan 25, 2011 2:22 pm

Assuming you meet the criteria to receive need based aid, when can you expect an offer? I'm assuming February/March along with certain schools' merit scholarships?




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