IBR: Am I crazy to think...

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tfc7x
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IBR: Am I crazy to think...

Postby tfc7x » Thu Apr 29, 2010 1:16 pm

...that the new IBR program makes the cost of a particular law school a non-deciding factor if we plan to go into gov/public interest? We'll be done paying off loans in 10 years - regardless of the amount of debt we are in. What am I missing?

Any insight is appreciated!

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A'nold
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Re: IBR: Am I crazy to think...

Postby A'nold » Thu Apr 29, 2010 1:17 pm

Just make sure you only take out Grad Plus loans and no private loans. Also, it may actually behoove people to go sticker at higher ranked schools if they have a great LRAP that helps w/ your already reduced IBR payments.

tfc7x
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Re: IBR: Am I crazy to think...

Postby tfc7x » Thu Apr 29, 2010 1:29 pm

Right - definitely going to take out Grad PLUS loans. It just seems like this IBR thing is something 0Ls aren't considering during their decision process. Granted, it doesn't help much if you plan on going into any kind of private law. 25 years is a long time.

Anonymous Loser
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Re: IBR: Am I crazy to think...

Postby Anonymous Loser » Thu Apr 29, 2010 2:28 pm

tfc7x wrote: What am I missing?


Planning to go into public interest and actually securing a qualifying public interest position are two very different things. You appear to be selecting schools based on the assumption that you will be able to obtain a qualifying position upon graduation, when this is far from certain.

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romothesavior
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Re: IBR: Am I crazy to think...

Postby romothesavior » Thu Apr 29, 2010 2:34 pm

Anonymous Loser wrote:
tfc7x wrote: What am I missing?


Planning to go into public interest and actually securing a qualifying public interest position are two very different things. You appear to be selecting schools based on the assumption that you will be able to obtain a qualifying position upon graduation, when this is far from certain.


This is actually an argument in favor of what OP is saying though. It would be better to take a T10 at sticker than a mid-range tier 1 at sticker or at a small scholly, because they will pay back the same amount regardless. Taking the higher ranked school when interested in PI is almost always the best call because it gives you a better shot at a good job.

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wardboro
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Re: IBR: Am I crazy to think...

Postby wardboro » Thu Apr 29, 2010 2:35 pm

Anonymous Loser is correct. I don't know what schools you're looking at, and I don't care, but at least this year competition for government jobs and other qualifying public interest work is unreal. A tiny town in my tiny flyover state had like 300 applicants for a low-paying assistant city attorney job. So depending on your school/grades/ability to network, getting a job that qualifies for IBR might not be as easy as you think. I know that the economy might turn around sooner rather than later, but I'm not convinced government hiring freezes will be lifted soon.

Wooster33
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Re: IBR: Am I crazy to think...

Postby Wooster33 » Thu Apr 29, 2010 2:36 pm

tfc7x wrote:...that the new IBR program makes the cost of a particular law school a non-deciding factor if we plan to go into gov/public interest? We'll be done paying off loans in 10 years - regardless of the amount of debt we are in. What am I missing?

Any insight is appreciated!


Nothing. It's a shitty program (from a policy stand point). Great for lawyers and law schools though!

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ozarkhack
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Re: IBR: Am I crazy to think...

Postby ozarkhack » Thu Apr 29, 2010 2:41 pm

wardboro wrote:Anonymous Loser is correct. I don't know what schools you're looking at, and I don't care, but at least this year competition for government jobs and other qualifying public interest work is unreal. A tiny town in my tiny flyover state had like 300 applicants for a low-paying assistant city attorney job. So depending on your school/grades/ability to network, getting a job that qualifies for IBR might not be as easy as you think. I know that the economy might turn around sooner rather than later, but I'm not convinced government hiring freezes will be lifted soon.


All jobs qualify for IBR (if you make little enough relative to debt). Say OP strikes out and has to get by on whoring + stocking shelves at Barnes & Noble.

He still qualifies for IBR. Say OP, faced with a dearth of pi jobs and no private firm jobs, goes solo; he still qualifies for IBR.

IBR is NOT just pi/govt. IBR's Public Service Loan Forgiveness program is. Under PSLF and non-PSLF IBR, your monthly debt payments are the same.

Granted, IBR is terrible for private firm folks (b/c it lengthens the loan-payoff period, which means much more in interest). But if for people struggling to make ends meet, IBR is godsend. (You can argue that 'tis better to go lower debt to avoid the nightmare, but if that means worse school, it could mean more likelihood of bad/no job.)

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PoorOrpheus
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Re: IBR: Am I crazy to think...

Postby PoorOrpheus » Thu Apr 29, 2010 2:43 pm

I didn't realize IBR could be combined with a school's LRAP. How would that work?

d34d9823
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Re: IBR: Am I crazy to think...

Postby d34d9823 » Thu Apr 29, 2010 2:45 pm

Wooster33 wrote:
tfc7x wrote:...that the new IBR program makes the cost of a particular law school a non-deciding factor if we plan to go into gov/public interest? We'll be done paying off loans in 10 years - regardless of the amount of debt we are in. What am I missing?

Any insight is appreciated!


Nothing. It's a shitty program (from a policy stand point). Great for lawyers and law schools though!


I personally think it's great for the country as it puts jobs (government/public service) that provide important civic services on a more equal competitive footing with BigLaw. To each his own, though. :roll:

Wooster33
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Re: IBR: Am I crazy to think...

Postby Wooster33 » Thu Apr 29, 2010 2:46 pm

PoorOrpheus wrote:I didn't realize IBR could be combined with a school's LRAP. How would that work?


Many top schools now will pay your IBR payment up to 60K or 75K in salary, meaning that you might pay zilch for you reducation if you work 10 years in a qualifying job making less than the amount specified.

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cardnal124
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Re: IBR: Am I crazy to think...

Postby cardnal124 » Thu Apr 29, 2010 2:47 pm

ozarkhack wrote:
wardboro wrote:Anonymous Loser is correct. I don't know what schools you're looking at, and I don't care, but at least this year competition for government jobs and other qualifying public interest work is unreal. A tiny town in my tiny flyover state had like 300 applicants for a low-paying assistant city attorney job. So depending on your school/grades/ability to network, getting a job that qualifies for IBR might not be as easy as you think. I know that the economy might turn around sooner rather than later, but I'm not convinced government hiring freezes will be lifted soon.


All jobs qualify for IBR (if you make little enough relative to debt). Say OP strikes out and has to get by on whoring + stocking shelves at Barnes & Noble.

He still qualifies for IBR. Say OP, faced with a dearth of pi jobs and no private firm jobs, goes solo; he still qualifies for IBR.

IBR is NOT just pi/govt. IBR's Public Service Loan Forgiveness program is. Under PSLF and non-PSLF IBR, your monthly debt payments are the same.

Granted, IBR is terrible for private firm folks (b/c it lengthens the loan-payoff period, which means much more in interest). But if for people struggling to make ends meet, IBR is godsend. (You can argue that 'tis better to go lower debt to avoid the nightmare, but if that means worse school, it could mean more likelihood of bad/no job.)


Beat me to it. The only thing is, the longer loan-payoff period is optional. Pre-payments are accepted without penalty so private firm people can pay as much as they want to get out of high interest payments.

Wooster33
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Re: IBR: Am I crazy to think...

Postby Wooster33 » Thu Apr 29, 2010 2:48 pm

d34dluk3 wrote:
Wooster33 wrote:
tfc7x wrote:...that the new IBR program makes the cost of a particular law school a non-deciding factor if we plan to go into gov/public interest? We'll be done paying off loans in 10 years - regardless of the amount of debt we are in. What am I missing?

Any insight is appreciated!


Nothing. It's a shitty program (from a policy stand point). Great for lawyers and law schools though!


I personally think it's great for the country as it puts jobs (government/public service) that provide important civic services on a more equal competitive footing with BigLaw. To each his own, though. :roll:


Many government positions were already staffed with qualified attorneys because those positions have better hours, more interesting/fulfilling work, and better job stability than BigLaw--no equalization was necessary. There was no need for the program. Don't confuse your own personal interest with the public interest.

Wooster33
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Re: IBR: Am I crazy to think...

Postby Wooster33 » Thu Apr 29, 2010 2:50 pm

Beat me to it. The only thing is, the longer loan-payoff period is optional. Pre-payments are accepted without penalty so private firm people can pay as much as they want to get out of high interest payments.


The private sector IBR is greatly inferior. 25 years verus 10 years. And as of today, the private folks will have to pay a mighty tax bill for their loan forgiveness. The two IBRs are not remotely comparable.

Anonymous Loser
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Re: IBR: Am I crazy to think...

Postby Anonymous Loser » Thu Apr 29, 2010 2:51 pm

Wooster33 wrote:Nothing. It's a shitty program (from a policy stand point). Great for lawyers and law schools though!


Also great for: teachers, librarians, law enforcement officers, civil engineers, doctors and nurses employed by non-profit medical clinics, and so on.

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Stringer Bell
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Re: IBR: Am I crazy to think...

Postby Stringer Bell » Thu Apr 29, 2010 2:51 pm

You're sort of correct. What also needs to be mentioned is that any government job applies. The folks that say getting a qualifying job is difficult are sort of correct. Getting a qualifying legal job might be difficult, but I believe any government job qualifies for the 10 year debt forgiveness. So while finding a job as a teacher or garbage man might not be super easy either, neither is getting a job at a small practice so that's probably a wash.

You do still need to be mindful of your costs, because you will be painting yourself into a corner by having to work for the government for 10 years. Alot of things could change in your life between now and then. I feel it would make alot more sense to pay sticker at NYU vs. paying 10k a year at ND if you are PI focused, but taking NYU at sticker vs. Mich for free would probably be nuts.

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A'nold
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Re: IBR: Am I crazy to think...

Postby A'nold » Thu Apr 29, 2010 2:51 pm

Wooster33 wrote:
d34dluk3 wrote:
Wooster33 wrote:
tfc7x wrote:...that the new IBR program makes the cost of a particular law school a non-deciding factor if we plan to go into gov/public interest? We'll be done paying off loans in 10 years - regardless of the amount of debt we are in. What am I missing?

Any insight is appreciated!


Nothing. It's a shitty program (from a policy stand point). Great for lawyers and law schools though!


I personally think it's great for the country as it puts jobs (government/public service) that provide important civic services on a more equal competitive footing with BigLaw. To each his own, though. :roll:


Many government positions were already staffed with qualified attorneys because those positions have better hours, more interesting/fulfilling work, and better job stability than BigLaw--no equalization was necessary. There was no need for the program. Don't confuse your own personal interest with the public interest.


You do know that IBR actually save the gov. a crap ton of $, right?

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ozarkhack
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Re: IBR: Am I crazy to think...

Postby ozarkhack » Thu Apr 29, 2010 2:52 pm

PoorOrpheus wrote:I didn't realize IBR could be combined with a school's LRAP. How would that work?


Not all schools do. Consider Davis v. Hastings.

Hastings pays a portion of your IBR-adjusted loan. You pay the rest. I erroneously thought -- and reported to TLS threads -- that Hastings' LRAP covered all loans; it for now does not cover Grad PLUS, which for Sticker Suckers like me, is like 2/3 of your debt. However, Hastings admin folks have told me they expect Grad PLUS to be covered beginning next year; if so, hell of a deal. ... Like: You earn less than $70K? Your monthly payment will be less than $120ish.

Davis does not tie into IBR. They instead work to help you pay off more of your loan balance. You must, at Davis, make less than $60K to qualify. And you have to spend 35% of your income amount above $40K.

Wooster33
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Re: IBR: Am I crazy to think...

Postby Wooster33 » Thu Apr 29, 2010 2:53 pm

Anonymous Loser wrote:
Wooster33 wrote:Nothing. It's a shitty program (from a policy stand point). Great for lawyers and law schools though!


Also great for: teachers, librarians, law enforcement officers, civil engineers, doctors and nurses employed by non-profit medical clinics, and so on.


With the possible exception of the medical field, there is no demonstrated need to further incent people to enter those fields. I agree, though, it's great for those people. Necessary? Justifiable from a policy position? Those are different questions.
Last edited by Wooster33 on Thu Apr 29, 2010 2:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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webbylu87
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Re: IBR: Am I crazy to think...

Postby webbylu87 » Thu Apr 29, 2010 2:53 pm

ozarkhack wrote:
wardboro wrote:All jobs qualify for IBR (if you make little enough relative to debt). Say OP strikes out and has to get by on whoring + stocking shelves at Barnes & Noble.

He still qualifies for IBR. Say OP, faced with a dearth of pi jobs and no private firm jobs, goes solo; he still qualifies for IBR.

IBR is NOT just pi/govt. IBR's Public Service Loan Forgiveness program is. Under PSLF and non-PSLF IBR, your monthly debt payments are the same.

Granted, IBR is terrible for private firm folks (b/c it lengthens the loan-payoff period, which means much more in interest). But if for people struggling to make ends meet, IBR is godsend. (You can argue that 'tis better to go lower debt to avoid the nightmare, but if that means worse school, it could mean more likelihood of bad/no job.)


Beat me to it. The only thing is, the longer loan-payoff period is optional. Pre-payments are accepted without penalty so private firm people can pay as much as they want to get out of high interest payments.


Both of these responses are credited. IBR repayment is not PI/PS exclusive it's just that it's often said to go hand-in-hand with PSLF which has a PI/PS requirement. Anyone can use the IBR method (up until the "financial hardship" threshold at least.) Many people think the two programs are mutually exclusive. They are not.
Last edited by webbylu87 on Thu Apr 29, 2010 2:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Wooster33
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Re: IBR: Am I crazy to think...

Postby Wooster33 » Thu Apr 29, 2010 2:55 pm

You do know that IBR actually save the gov. a crap ton of $, right?


No, it does not. You may be thinking of the government takeover of the student loan industry whereby the government will eliminate some costs by directly lending to students rather than bribing private lenders to do so.

katjust
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Re: IBR: Am I crazy to think...

Postby katjust » Thu Apr 29, 2010 2:56 pm

In theory it saves money, but last I checked the government really sucks at coming up with programs that actually save money. My prediction is that many of these loans get forgiven and end up unpaid, thus losing everyone money.

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A'nold
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Re: IBR: Am I crazy to think...

Postby A'nold » Thu Apr 29, 2010 2:58 pm

Wooster33 wrote:
You do know that IBR actually save the gov. a crap ton of $, right?


No, it does not. You may be thinking of the government takeover of the student loan industry whereby the government will eliminate some costs by directly lending to students rather than bribing private lenders to do so.


IIRC, this was one of the ways the gov. is able to afford IBR.

Wooster33
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Re: IBR: Am I crazy to think...

Postby Wooster33 » Thu Apr 29, 2010 3:02 pm

IIRC, this was one of the ways the gov. is able to afford IBR.


Exactly, it will not "save money." And I take issue with the government being able to afford this program--1.6 trillion dollar deficit this year. Hey, but I can see how a lot of posters think it's pretty cool the taxpayer is going to pay for their overpriced t14 law degree. But I don't see how the same posters can argue it is a sound and necessary policy.

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ozarkhack
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Re: IBR: Am I crazy to think...

Postby ozarkhack » Thu Apr 29, 2010 3:04 pm

Good god. You just can't stand it, can you?

For those of you who aren't aware, Wooster33 very much hates IBR (see above linked thread) and has less-than-nice-things to say about the government (or its employees, anyway).

And rather than spending her/his energy talking to policymakers about it (though I apologize to him if s/he does so), he'd rather instead engage in pointless internet arguments with those of us who have nothing to do with its creation/implementation but instead merely view its usefulness to society in ways that contradict his and, therefore, are simply not correct.




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