T14s accept 70-80 URMs per year? 50 URMs score >170?

(BLS, URM status, non-traditional, GLBT)
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BasketCaseBrief
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Re: T14s accept 70-80 URMs per year? 50 URMs score >170?

Postby BasketCaseBrief » Tue Oct 13, 2009 11:25 pm

Most people who sit for the test, regardless of race, do not score above 170 now do they? Only ~2% (study or no study) of LSAT takers score this high so why is it always being discussed as a norm?

I'd guess that the few URM (particularly black) males scoring above 170 seem to be proportionate (control for black males only being some 6 percent of the general population) to how scarce they are to the small number of white people also scoring above 170. Heck, if a thousand black males take the test for every 16,000 whites taking the same test, it's certainly not a shocker that only about 20 of them, compared to about 320 whites, score so well. Those T14s had better clamor for that few and rare 20 black males; hell, throw in a few who only score in the mid-160's, too. I see no problem. The racial gap at top law schools has to be filled in somehow, lest they discouragingly appear too milky.

Or else, those T14 schools would be getting lacerated by Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson all day every day.

choculamaviva
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Re: T14s accept 70-80 URMs per year? 50 URMs score >170?

Postby choculamaviva » Wed Oct 14, 2009 12:52 am

BasketCaseBrief wrote:Most people who sit for the test, regardless of race, do not score above 170 now do they? Only ~2% (study or no study) of LSAT takers score this high so why is it always being discussed as a norm?

I'd guess that the few URM (particularly black) males scoring above 170 seem to be proportionate (control for black males only being some 6 percent of the general population) to how scarce they are to the small number of white people also scoring above 170. Heck, if a thousand black males take the test for every 16,000 whites taking the same test, it's certainly not a shocker that only about 20 of them, compared to about 320 whites, score so well. Those T14s had better clamor for that few and rare 20 black males; hell, throw in a few who only score in the mid-160's, too. I see no problem. The racial gap at top law schools has to be filled in somehow, lest they discouragingly appear too milky.

Or else, those T14 schools would be getting lacerated by Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson all day every day.


The stats aren't even close. Please don't try to pretend that they are.

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vanwinkle
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Re: T14s accept 70-80 URMs per year? 50 URMs score >170?

Postby vanwinkle » Wed Oct 14, 2009 12:26 pm

BasketCaseBrief wrote:Most people who sit for the test, regardless of race, do not score above 170 now do they? Only ~2% (study or no study) of LSAT takers score this high so why is it always being discussed as a norm?

I'd guess that the few URM (particularly black) males scoring above 170 seem to be proportionate (control for black males only being some 6 percent of the general population) to how scarce they are to the small number of white people also scoring above 170. Heck, if a thousand black males take the test for every 16,000 whites taking the same test, it's certainly not a shocker that only about 20 of them, compared to about 320 whites, score so well. Those T14s had better clamor for that few and rare 20 black males; hell, throw in a few who only score in the mid-160's, too. I see no problem. The racial gap at top law schools has to be filled in somehow, lest they discouragingly appear too milky.

Or else, those T14 schools would be getting lacerated by Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson all day every day.


The median LSAT score for a white taker is 151; the median score for a black taker is 141. It's not just scarcity of test takers, it's also a difference in standardized testing results between the races as a measured whole.

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Re: T14s accept 70-80 URMs per year? 50 URMs score >170?

Postby rGsgbJsl1 » Wed Oct 14, 2009 9:03 pm

TheJudge wrote:
lawlover829 wrote:
TheJudge wrote:Wow, only 40-50 black URMs score over 170 each year. That is quite shocking actually. Makes you wonder what the explanation is. Maybe it is just the fact, that as a URM, being aware that if you have a half decent GPA from a half decent college, something in the lower 160 will probably suffice to get you into a T20, if not T10 school. So consequently, URMs just take it easy on the LSAT.

This is not meant to start any controvesy (hell, if I could get into Chicago wih a 162, why would I study my ass off to get a 170?!? It's just human nature).


You are mistaking something: I don't think URMS will say, "I can get into law schools easier than the rest of the population... so I won't study!"

There is a statistically significant lagging in the scores of URMs (in MCATS/PCATS/LSATS). It's important to keep a socio-context when thinking about these things into consideration.


I think your explanation is valid for explaining why URM on average score lower on most standadized tests. But I don't think it can explain the fact that out of roughly 10000 black URM students taking the LSAT, only 40-50 get a 170. I think this cannot be explained by socioeconomic factors alone. Many URMs go to top colleges, so you can reasonably assume that these people should have the intellectual horsepower and the right academic environment to support them. Still, only 40 to 50 actually do so every year.


Can you guys do basic arithmetic operations?

If say 50 black URMs get a 170 or above, and if 10,000 black URMs take the LSAT, that means about 5% of black URMs score above a 170.

According to Wikipedia the 90th percentile is around 163 for EVERYBODY.
We could probably say that a 170 is the 93-94th percentile.

I don't see what the big deal is, the numbers are very similar :roll:

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D. H2Oman
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Re: T14s accept 70-80 URMs per year? 50 URMs score >170?

Postby D. H2Oman » Wed Oct 14, 2009 9:12 pm

rGsgbJsl1 wrote:
TheJudge wrote:
lawlover829 wrote:
TheJudge wrote:Wow, only 40-50 black URMs score over 170 each year. That is quite shocking actually. Makes you wonder what the explanation is. Maybe it is just the fact, that as a URM, being aware that if you have a half decent GPA from a half decent college, something in the lower 160 will probably suffice to get you into a T20, if not T10 school. So consequently, URMs just take it easy on the LSAT.

This is not meant to start any controvesy (hell, if I could get into Chicago wih a 162, why would I study my ass off to get a 170?!? It's just human nature).


You are mistaking something: I don't think URMS will say, "I can get into law schools easier than the rest of the population... so I won't study!"

There is a statistically significant lagging in the scores of URMs (in MCATS/PCATS/LSATS). It's important to keep a socio-context when thinking about these things into consideration.


I think your explanation is valid for explaining why URM on average score lower on most standadized tests. But I don't think it can explain the fact that out of roughly 10000 black URM students taking the LSAT, only 40-50 get a 170. I think this cannot be explained by socioeconomic factors alone. Many URMs go to top colleges, so you can reasonably assume that these people should have the intellectual horsepower and the right academic environment to support them. Still, only 40 to 50 actually do so every year.


Can you guys do basic arithmetic operations?

If say 50 black URMs get a 170 or above, and if 10,000 black URMs take the LSAT, that means about 5% of black URMs score above a 170.

According to Wikipedia the 90th percentile is around 163 for EVERYBODY.
We could probably say that a 170 is the 93-94th percentile.

I don't see what the big deal is, the numbers are very similar :roll:



I'd do that math again, bro.....

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Kohinoor
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Re: T14s accept 70-80 URMs per year? 50 URMs score >170?

Postby Kohinoor » Wed Oct 14, 2009 9:16 pm

rGsgbJsl1 wrote:Can you guys do basic arithmetic operations?

If say 50 black URMs get a 170 or above, and if 10,000 black URMs take the LSAT, that means about 5% of black URMs score above a 170.

According to Wikipedia the 90th percentile is around 163 for EVERYBODY.
We could probably say that a 170 is the 93-94th percentile.

I don't see what the big deal is, the numbers are very similar :roll:

This is too perfect to not be flame.

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Re: T14s accept 70-80 URMs per year? 50 URMs score >170?

Postby kurama20 » Wed Oct 14, 2009 9:16 pm

rGsgbJsl1 wrote:Can I do basic arithmetic operations?

If say 50 black URMs get a 170 or above, and if 10,000 black URMs take the LSAT, that means about 5% of black URMs score above a 170.

According to Wikipedia the 90th percentile is around 163 for EVERYBODY.
We could probably say that a 170 is the 93-94th percentile.

I don't see what the big deal is, the numbers are very similar :roll:



No.

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rGsgbJsl1
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Re: T14s accept 70-80 URMs per year? 50 URMs score >170?

Postby rGsgbJsl1 » Wed Oct 14, 2009 9:17 pm

It's not fair, all you guys are regulars...

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Re: T14s accept 70-80 URMs per year? 50 URMs score >170?

Postby APimpNamedSlickback » Wed Oct 14, 2009 9:18 pm

Kohinoor is clearly smart, but i think i'm going to add him to my foes list. his dose of reality posts are like a torrential downpour on the parade i've been on since l first saw these lsat demographic numbers.

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Re: T14s accept 70-80 URMs per year? 50 URMs score >170?

Postby kurama20 » Wed Oct 14, 2009 9:22 pm

talibkweli wrote:Kohinoor is clearly smart, but i think i'm going to add him to my foes list. his dose of reality posts are like a torrential downpour on the parade i've been on since l first saw these lsat demographic numbers.



Hell no! I just realized where and what your avatar is from!!! :lol: :lol: :shock:

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Re: T14s accept 70-80 URMs per year? 50 URMs score >170?

Postby APimpNamedSlickback » Wed Oct 14, 2009 9:24 pm

kurama20 wrote:
talibkweli wrote:Kohinoor is clearly smart, but i think i'm going to add him to my foes list. his dose of reality posts are like a torrential downpour on the parade i've been on since l first saw these lsat demographic numbers.



Hell no! I just realized where and what your avatar is from!!! :lol: :lol: :shock:



i'm the first poster in the history of message boards to have coupled talib kweli with a patrick bateman avatar. i'm an innovator. or just weird.

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Re: T14s accept 70-80 URMs per year? 50 URMs score >170?

Postby Kant » Wed Oct 14, 2009 9:42 pm

I have a hard time believing that only 50 blacks score a 170+

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Re: T14s accept 70-80 URMs per year? 50 URMs score >170?

Postby Kohinoor » Wed Oct 14, 2009 9:44 pm

talibkweli wrote:Kohinoor is clearly smart, but i think i'm going to add him to my foes list. his dose of reality posts are like a torrential downpour on the parade i've been on since l first saw these lsat demographic numbers.
I feel that I'm an outlier. My application was poorly executed independently of my numbers. You'll get in everywhere you apply.

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Re: T14s accept 70-80 URMs per year? 50 URMs score >170?

Postby rGsgbJsl1 » Wed Oct 14, 2009 9:45 pm

talibkweli wrote:
kurama20 wrote:
talibkweli wrote:Kohinoor is clearly smart, but i think i'm going to add him to my foes list. his dose of reality posts are like a torrential downpour on the parade i've been on since l first saw these lsat demographic numbers.



Hell no! I just realized where and what your avatar is from!!! :lol: :lol: :shock:



i'm the first poster in the history of message boards to have coupled talib kweli with a patrick bateman avatar. i'm an innovator. or just weird.


Neither, I'm surprised I haven't seen more of him around here. TLS and a hobo killing yuppie seem like a perfect combination.

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Re: T14s accept 70-80 URMs per year? 50 URMs score >170?

Postby Kant » Wed Oct 14, 2009 9:47 pm

Dwaterman86 wrote:
rGsgbJsl1 wrote:
Can you guys do basic arithmetic operations?

If say 50 black URMs get a 170 or above, and if 10,000 black URMs take the LSAT, that means about 5% of black URMs score above a 170.

According to Wikipedia the 90th percentile is around 163 for EVERYBODY.
We could probably say that a 170 is the 93-94th percentile.

I don't see what the big deal is, the numbers are very similar :roll:



I'd do that math again, bro.....



I'm gonna do it for him......


(50/10,000)*100% = .5% Approx. 1.6% of all test takers score above a 170. This is why i believe that more than 50 black do the same.

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rGsgbJsl1
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Re: T14s accept 70-80 URMs per year? 50 URMs score >170?

Postby rGsgbJsl1 » Wed Oct 14, 2009 9:47 pm

Kant wrote:I have a hard time believing that only 50 blacks score a 170+


What's so hard to believe?
The data is right in front of you (second link).


Rand M. wrote:That Harvard number is referring to black people only.

http://www.nalplawschoolsonline.org/ndl ... 03&yr=2009

Each year the number of black people attending is between 60 and 70, so one must assume that the number admitted is a bit higher. So yes, that means that even Harvard is having to reach past the test takers scoring 170, so one can only imagine the effect this has on school like NYU and Columbia once all of those score are gone. This is why black males with mid 150s scores get into Cornell every year. An important thing to keep in mind is that black males are severely underrepresented in any achieving group. Any score numbers about black people probably mean that 3/4 of them are females.


The 170 scorers number is also pertaining solely to blacks and may be a little lower than the one you've quoted. I have heard that the number is around 40 now. It is also around 40 for black people with both a 3.5+ and a 165+.

http://www.jbhe.com/news_views/51_gradu ... _test.html

That link discusses black performance on the lsat and lists the figure for 2004 which was really not that long ago. You've got to keep in mind that most of the 160's=the top 1% for black test takers.

Hope that helps.

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Re: T14s accept 70-80 URMs per year? 50 URMs score >170?

Postby Kant » Wed Oct 14, 2009 9:50 pm

rGsgbJsl1 wrote:
Kant wrote:I have a hard time believing that only 50 blacks score a 170+


What's so hard to believe?
The data is right in front of you (second link).



Now that we have established that...the next question is why....and that is bad question to ask....

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rGsgbJsl1
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Re: T14s accept 70-80 URMs per year? 50 URMs score >170?

Postby rGsgbJsl1 » Wed Oct 14, 2009 9:55 pm

Kant wrote:
rGsgbJsl1 wrote:
Kant wrote:I have a hard time believing that only 50 blacks score a 170+


What's so hard to believe?
The data is right in front of you (second link).



Now that we have established that...the next question is why....and that is bad question to ask....


Why is it a bad question?
Just because race is involved it doesn't mean we shouldn't talk about it. Hell, if an answer is found, maybe LSAC could create a Law School admission process where everybody is equal and we don't have to rely on URM boosts to make up for unequal education opportunities.

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Re: T14s accept 70-80 URMs per year? 50 URMs score >170?

Postby Kohinoor » Wed Oct 14, 2009 9:58 pm

rGsgbJsl1 wrote:
Kant wrote:
rGsgbJsl1 wrote:
Kant wrote:I have a hard time believing that only 50 blacks score a 170+


What's so hard to believe?
The data is right in front of you (second link).



Now that we have established that...the next question is why....and that is bad question to ask....


Why is it a bad question?
Just because race is involved it doesn't mean we shouldn't talk about it. Hell, if an answer is found, maybe LSAC could create a Law School admission process where everybody is equal and we don't have to rely on URM boosts to make up for unequal education opportunities.

If we are to talk, let us begin from a position of truth. LSAC doesn't require anything of law schools with regard to minority admission rates. The programs are conceived and operated by the individual law schools.

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Re: T14s accept 70-80 URMs per year? 50 URMs score >170?

Postby Kant » Wed Oct 14, 2009 9:58 pm

Because if you are on one side you are instantly labeled as a racist by TLS crowd.

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Re: T14s accept 70-80 URMs per year? 50 URMs score >170?

Postby rGsgbJsl1 » Wed Oct 14, 2009 10:01 pm

Kohinoor wrote:If we are to talk, let us begin from a position of truth. LSAC doesn't require anything of law schools with regard to minority admission rates. The programs are conceived and operated by the individual law schools.


What do you suggest then?

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Re: T14s accept 70-80 URMs per year? 50 URMs score >170?

Postby Kant » Wed Oct 14, 2009 10:02 pm

rGsgbJsl1 wrote:
Kohinoor wrote:If we are to talk, let us begin from a position of truth. LSAC doesn't require anything of law schools with regard to minority admission rates. The programs are conceived and operated by the individual law schools.


What do you suggest then?


This will get interesting.

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Kohinoor
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Re: T14s accept 70-80 URMs per year? 50 URMs score >170?

Postby Kohinoor » Wed Oct 14, 2009 10:03 pm

rGsgbJsl1 wrote:
Kohinoor wrote:If we are to talk, let us begin from a position of truth. LSAC doesn't require anything of law schools with regard to minority admission rates. The programs are conceived and operated by the individual law schools.


What do you suggest then?

Nothing. You're the one who doesn't like the system, not me. I'm just saying that if you want to discuss this, let's not have the misconception that law schools are being forced by some governing authority to admit more minorities than they would otherwise prefer to.

Kant
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Re: T14s accept 70-80 URMs per year? 50 URMs score >170?

Postby Kant » Wed Oct 14, 2009 10:05 pm

Kohinoor wrote:
rGsgbJsl1 wrote:
Kohinoor wrote:If we are to talk, let us begin from a position of truth. LSAC doesn't require anything of law schools with regard to minority admission rates. The programs are conceived and operated by the individual law schools.


What do you suggest then?

Nothing. You're the one who doesn't like the system, not me. I'm just saying that if you want to discuss this, let's not have the misconception that law schools are being forced by some governing authority to admit more minorities than they would otherwise prefer to.



It should be illegal for all schools that get the public dollar.

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rGsgbJsl1
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Re: T14s accept 70-80 URMs per year? 50 URMs score >170?

Postby rGsgbJsl1 » Wed Oct 14, 2009 10:09 pm

Kohinoor wrote:Nothing. You're the one who doesn't like the system, not me. I'm just saying that if you want to discuss this, let's not have the misconception that law schools are being forced by some governing authority to admit more minorities than they would otherwise prefer to.


I do think though, that in a way they are forced to evaluate URM candidates differently from non-URMs. If LSAT scores didn't deviate so much across races, there would be no need to weigh a 170 non-URM from a 170 URM. I don't really know if the nature of the LSAT is what accounts for such deviations, but if it does, then LSAC should change it so those deviations are minimized.




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