T14s accept 70-80 URMs per year? 50 URMs score >170?

(BLS, URM status, non-traditional, GLBT)
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Haven
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T14s accept 70-80 URMs per year? 50 URMs score >170?

Postby Haven » Sat Sep 26, 2009 12:51 am

I read somewhere on TLS that HLS accepts 70-80 URM (black, if I remember the op correctly) per cycle (not that 75 is the cap; rather the average).

1. I was wondering if this could be substantiated.

2, I was wondering if other T14s have similar stats (and if that could be substantiated as well).

Links to pertinent information would be appreciated.

Another piece of information that I've read on TLS is that only 50 URMs score above a 170 on the LSAT per year. This may pertain only to black people, but I'm not sure.

3. Can this information be substantiated as well (with evidence through links please)?

Thanks

(Forgive typos and grammatical errors, its late)

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Capercaillie
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Re: T14s accept 70-80 URMs per year? 50 URMs score >170?

Postby Capercaillie » Sat Sep 26, 2009 1:00 am

Enjoy Columbia!

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Rand M.
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Re: T14s accept 70-80 URMs per year? 50 URMs score >170?

Postby Rand M. » Sun Sep 27, 2009 9:15 am

That Harvard number is referring to black people only.

http://www.nalplawschoolsonline.org/ndl ... 03&yr=2009

Each year the number of black people attending is between 60 and 70, so one must assume that the number admitted is a bit higher. So yes, that means that even Harvard is having to reach past the test takers scoring 170, so one can only imagine the effect this has on school like NYU and Columbia once all of those score are gone. This is why black males with mid 150s scores get into Cornell every year. An important thing to keep in mind is that black males are severely underrepresented in any achieving group. Any score numbers about black people probably mean that 3/4 of them are females.


The 170 scorers number is also pertaining solely to blacks and may be a little lower than the one you've quoted. I have heard that the number is around 40 now. It is also around 40 for black people with both a 3.5+ and a 165+.

http://www.jbhe.com/news_views/51_gradu ... _test.html

That link discusses black performance on the lsat and lists the figure for 2004 which was really not that long ago. You've got to keep in mind that most of the 160's=the top 1% for black test takers.

Hope that helps.

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Re: T14s accept 70-80 URMs per year? 50 URMs score >170?

Postby Kohinoor » Mon Sep 28, 2009 12:33 pm

A 170 is great but doesn't make you a lock. If your GPA is terrible, top schools will take a 3.8/164 URM over your 2.7/176. hth!

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Postby Legomyeggos » Mon Sep 28, 2009 2:21 pm

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Drake014
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Re: T14s accept 70-80 URMs per year? 50 URMs score >170?

Postby Drake014 » Mon Sep 28, 2009 2:28 pm

Legomyeggos wrote:
Rand M. wrote:That Harvard number is referring to black people only.

http://www.nalplawschoolsonline.org/ndl ... 03&yr=2009

Each year the number of black people attending is between 60 and 70, so one must assume that the number admitted is a bit higher. So yes, that means that even Harvard is having to reach past the test takers scoring 170, so one can only imagine the effect this has on school like NYU and Columbia once all of those score are gone. This is why black males with mid 150s scores get into Cornell every year. An important thing to keep in mind is that black males are severely underrepresented in any achieving group. Any score numbers about black people probably mean that 3/4 of them are females.


The 170 scorers number is also pertaining solely to blacks and may be a little lower than the one you've quoted. I have heard that the number is around 40 now. It is also around 40 for black people with both a 3.5+ and a 165+.

http://www.jbhe.com/news_views/51_gradu ... _test.html

That link discusses black performance on the lsat and lists the figure for 2004 which was really not that long ago. You've got to keep in mind that most of the 160's=the top 1% for black test takers.

Hope that helps.


I just wanted to ask where you got the updated figure for the number of Black LSAT takers breaking the 170 barrier?


2004 is a bit outdated. It would be interesting to see if there's an upward trend.

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Re: T14s accept 70-80 URMs per year? 50 URMs score >170?

Postby TheJudge » Mon Sep 28, 2009 2:39 pm

Wow, only 40-50 black URMs score over 170 each year. That is quite shocking actually. Makes you wonder what the explanation is. Maybe it is just the fact, that as a URM, being aware that if you have a half decent GPA from a half decent college, something in the lower 160 will probably suffice to get you into a T20, if not T10 school. So consequently, URMs just take it easy on the LSAT.

This is not meant to start any controvesy (hell, if I could get into Chicago wih a 162, why would I study my ass off to get a 170?!? It's just human nature).

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Re: T14s accept 70-80 URMs per year? 50 URMs score >170?

Postby D. H2Oman » Mon Sep 28, 2009 2:41 pm

TheJudge wrote:Wow, only 40-50 black URMs score over 170 each year. That is quite shocking actually. Makes you wonder what the explanation is. Maybe it is just the fact, that as a URM, being aware that if you have a half decent GPA from a half decent college, something in the lower 160 will probably suffice to get you into a T20, if not T10 school. So consequently, URMs just take it easy on the LSAT.

This is not meant to start any controvesy (hell, if I could get into Chicago wih a 162, why would I study my ass off to get a 170?!? It's just human nature).




You are making the big assumption that the average applicant has basic knowledge about law school admissions.

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Re: T14s accept 70-80 URMs per year? 50 URMs score >170?

Postby TheJudge » Mon Sep 28, 2009 2:48 pm

Dwaterman86 wrote:
TheJudge wrote:Wow, only 40-50 black URMs score over 170 each year. That is quite shocking actually. Makes you wonder what the explanation is. Maybe it is just the fact, that as a URM, being aware that if you have a half decent GPA from a half decent college, something in the lower 160 will probably suffice to get you into a T20, if not T10 school. So consequently, URMs just take it easy on the LSAT.

This is not meant to start any controvesy (hell, if I could get into Chicago wih a 162, why would I study my ass off to get a 170?!? It's just human nature).




You are making the big assumption that the average applicant has basic knowledge about law school admissions.


Do you really think it is such a big assumption? Granted, there will be a good chunk of people who have no clue about the process. Then again there will also be a good bunch of people who will know about AA in law schools. Why wouldn't you think that this is the case or unreasonable to assume?

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lawlover829
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Re: T14s accept 70-80 URMs per year? 50 URMs score >170?

Postby lawlover829 » Mon Sep 28, 2009 2:53 pm

TheJudge wrote:Wow, only 40-50 black URMs score over 170 each year. That is quite shocking actually. Makes you wonder what the explanation is. Maybe it is just the fact, that as a URM, being aware that if you have a half decent GPA from a half decent college, something in the lower 160 will probably suffice to get you into a T20, if not T10 school. So consequently, URMs just take it easy on the LSAT.

This is not meant to start any controvesy (hell, if I could get into Chicago wih a 162, why would I study my ass off to get a 170?!? It's just human nature).


You are mistaking something: I don't think URMS will say, "I can get into law schools easier than the rest of the population... so I won't study!"

There is a statistically significant lagging in the scores of URMs (in MCATS/PCATS/LSATS). It's important to keep a socio-context when thinking about these things into consideration.

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Drake014
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Re: T14s accept 70-80 URMs per year? 50 URMs score >170?

Postby Drake014 » Mon Sep 28, 2009 2:59 pm

lawlover829 wrote:
TheJudge wrote:Wow, only 40-50 black URMs score over 170 each year. That is quite shocking actually. Makes you wonder what the explanation is. Maybe it is just the fact, that as a URM, being aware that if you have a half decent GPA from a half decent college, something in the lower 160 will probably suffice to get you into a T20, if not T10 school. So consequently, URMs just take it easy on the LSAT.

This is not meant to start any controvesy (hell, if I could get into Chicago wih a 162, why would I study my ass off to get a 170?!? It's just human nature).


You are mistaking something: I don't think URMS will say, "I can get into law schools easier than the rest of the population... so I won't study!"

There is a statistically significant lagging in the scores of URMs (in MCATS/PCATS/LSATS). It's important to keep a socio-context when thinking about these things into consideration.


Just like with any group there's going to be variation. I'm a URM who did a significant amount of prep for the LSAT and scored much higher than I needed. Likewise, I've heard another URM talk about how they only needed to score so high to get into the grad program they wanted. I've also heard a rich white kid say he doesn't have to worry about his grades or his test scores because his father is alumni and a major donor. I find the latter scenario to be the most disturbing even though its the least talked about.

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rondemarino
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Re: T14s accept 70-80 URMs per year? 50 URMs score >170?

Postby rondemarino » Mon Sep 28, 2009 3:01 pm

Drake014 wrote:
lawlover829 wrote:
TheJudge wrote:Wow, only 40-50 black URMs score over 170 each year. That is quite shocking actually. Makes you wonder what the explanation is. Maybe it is just the fact, that as a URM, being aware that if you have a half decent GPA from a half decent college, something in the lower 160 will probably suffice to get you into a T20, if not T10 school. So consequently, URMs just take it easy on the LSAT.

This is not meant to start any controvesy (hell, if I could get into Chicago wih a 162, why would I study my ass off to get a 170?!? It's just human nature).


You are mistaking something: I don't think URMS will say, "I can get into law schools easier than the rest of the population... so I won't study!"

There is a statistically significant lagging in the scores of URMs (in MCATS/PCATS/LSATS). It's important to keep a socio-context when thinking about these things into consideration.


Just like with any group there's going to be variation. I'm a URM who did a significant amount of prep for the LSAT and scored much higher than I needed. Likewise, I've heard another URM talk about how they only needed to score so high to get into the grad program they wanted. I've also heard a rich white kid say he doesn't have to worry about his grades or his test scores because his father is alumni and a major donor. I find the latter scenario to be the most disturbing even though its the least talked about.


Wealth = Virtue

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Re: T14s accept 70-80 URMs per year? 50 URMs score >170?

Postby TheJudge » Mon Sep 28, 2009 3:01 pm

lawlover829 wrote:
TheJudge wrote:Wow, only 40-50 black URMs score over 170 each year. That is quite shocking actually. Makes you wonder what the explanation is. Maybe it is just the fact, that as a URM, being aware that if you have a half decent GPA from a half decent college, something in the lower 160 will probably suffice to get you into a T20, if not T10 school. So consequently, URMs just take it easy on the LSAT.

This is not meant to start any controvesy (hell, if I could get into Chicago wih a 162, why would I study my ass off to get a 170?!? It's just human nature).


You are mistaking something: I don't think URMS will say, "I can get into law schools easier than the rest of the population... so I won't study!"

There is a statistically significant lagging in the scores of URMs (in MCATS/PCATS/LSATS). It's important to keep a socio-context when thinking about these things into consideration.


I think your explanation is valid for explaining why URM on average score lower on most standadized tests. But I don't think it can explain the fact that out of roughly 10000 black URM students taking the LSAT, only 40-50 get a 170. I think this cannot be explained by socioeconomic factors alone. Many URMs go to top colleges, so you can reasonably assume that these people should have the intellectual horsepower and the right academic environment to support them. Still, only 40 to 50 actually do so every year.

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Re: T14s accept 70-80 URMs per year? 50 URMs score >170?

Postby rondemarino » Mon Sep 28, 2009 3:04 pm

TheJudge wrote:
Dwaterman86 wrote:
TheJudge wrote:Wow, only 40-50 black URMs score over 170 each year. That is quite shocking actually. Makes you wonder what the explanation is. Maybe it is just the fact, that as a URM, being aware that if you have a half decent GPA from a half decent college, something in the lower 160 will probably suffice to get you into a T20, if not T10 school. So consequently, URMs just take it easy on the LSAT.

This is not meant to start any controvesy (hell, if I could get into Chicago wih a 162, why would I study my ass off to get a 170?!? It's just human nature).


You are making the big assumption that the average applicant has basic knowledge about law school admissions.


Do you really think it is such a big assumption? Granted, there will be a good chunk of people who have no clue about the process. Then again there will also be a good bunch of people who will know about AA in law schools. Why wouldn't you think that this is the case or unreasonable to assume?


What posh suburb are you from, again?

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lawlover829
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Re: T14s accept 70-80 URMs per year? 50 URMs score >170?

Postby lawlover829 » Mon Sep 28, 2009 3:04 pm

TheJudge wrote:
lawlover829 wrote:
TheJudge wrote:Wow, only 40-50 black URMs score over 170 each year. That is quite shocking actually. Makes you wonder what the explanation is. Maybe it is just the fact, that as a URM, being aware that if you have a half decent GPA from a half decent college, something in the lower 160 will probably suffice to get you into a T20, if not T10 school. So consequently, URMs just take it easy on the LSAT.

This is not meant to start any controvesy (hell, if I could get into Chicago wih a 162, why would I study my ass off to get a 170?!? It's just human nature).


You are mistaking something: I don't think URMS will say, "I can get into law schools easier than the rest of the population... so I won't study!"

There is a statistically significant lagging in the scores of URMs (in MCATS/PCATS/LSATS). It's important to keep a socio-context when thinking about these things into consideration.


I think your explanation is valid for explaining why URM on average score lower on most standadized tests. But I don't think it can explain the fact that out of roughly 10000 black URM students taking the LSAT, only 40-50 get a 170. I think this cannot be explained by socioeconomic factors alone. Many URMs go to top colleges, so you can reasonably assume that these people should have the intellectual horsepower and the right academic environment to support them. Still, only 40 to 50 actually do so every year.


Obviously it's not not socioeconomic factors that are contributing to it: it's a combination of things... I don't want to get into it and start an aa war.

That stuff gets crazzyyyyyy sometimes.

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Re: T14s accept 70-80 URMs per year? 50 URMs score >170?

Postby pjarron » Mon Sep 28, 2009 3:05 pm

Drake014 wrote:
lawlover829 wrote:
TheJudge wrote:Wow, only 40-50 black URMs score over 170 each year. That is quite shocking actually. Makes you wonder what the explanation is. Maybe it is just the fact, that as a URM, being aware that if you have a half decent GPA from a half decent college, something in the lower 160 will probably suffice to get you into a T20, if not T10 school. So consequently, URMs just take it easy on the LSAT.

This is not meant to start any controvesy (hell, if I could get into Chicago wih a 162, why would I study my ass off to get a 170?!? It's just human nature).


You are mistaking something: I don't think URMS will say, "I can get into law schools easier than the rest of the population... so I won't study!"

There is a statistically significant lagging in the scores of URMs (in MCATS/PCATS/LSATS). It's important to keep a socio-context when thinking about these things into consideration.


Just like with any group there's going to be variation. I'm a URM who did a significant amount of prep for the LSAT and scored much higher than I needed. Likewise, I've heard another URM talk about how they only needed to score so high to get into the grad program they wanted. I've also heard a rich white kid say he doesn't have to worry about his grades or his test scores because his father is alumni and a major donor. I find the latter scenario to be the most disturbing even though its the least talked about.


+1
I find it interesting how some people get so upset or disturbed over AA admissions yet I never hear a peep about legacy admissions and other admission policies which essentially reward people for being born to the right family with the right income and connections etc. But I’m sure there’s a good reason for this disparity.

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rondemarino
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Re: T14s accept 70-80 URMs per year? 50 URMs score >170?

Postby rondemarino » Mon Sep 28, 2009 3:07 pm

TheJudge wrote:
lawlover829 wrote:
TheJudge wrote:Wow, only 40-50 black URMs score over 170 each year. That is quite shocking actually. Makes you wonder what the explanation is. Maybe it is just the fact, that as a URM, being aware that if you have a half decent GPA from a half decent college, something in the lower 160 will probably suffice to get you into a T20, if not T10 school. So consequently, URMs just take it easy on the LSAT.

This is not meant to start any controvesy (hell, if I could get into Chicago wih a 162, why would I study my ass off to get a 170?!? It's just human nature).


You are mistaking something: I don't think URMS will say, "I can get into law schools easier than the rest of the population... so I won't study!"

There is a statistically significant lagging in the scores of URMs (in MCATS/PCATS/LSATS). It's important to keep a socio-context when thinking about these things into consideration.


I think your explanation is valid for explaining why URM on average score lower on most standadized tests. But I don't think it can explain the fact that out of roughly 10000 black URM students taking the LSAT, only 40-50 get a 170. I think this cannot be explained by socioeconomic factors alone. Many URMs go to top colleges, so you can reasonably assume that these people should have the intellectual horsepower and the right academic environment to support them. Still, only 40 to 50 actually do so every year.


Tests and prep courses cost money. Financial aid, which is ridiculously generous at top schools, doesn't bridge the gap between poor and trust fund baby automatically.

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D. H2Oman
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Re: T14s accept 70-80 URMs per year? 50 URMs score >170?

Postby D. H2Oman » Mon Sep 28, 2009 3:07 pm

lawlover829 wrote:
TheJudge wrote:
lawlover829 wrote:
TheJudge wrote:Wow, only 40-50 black URMs score over 170 each year. That is quite shocking actually. Makes you wonder what the explanation is. Maybe it is just the fact, that as a URM, being aware that if you have a half decent GPA from a half decent college, something in the lower 160 will probably suffice to get you into a T20, if not T10 school. So consequently, URMs just take it easy on the LSAT.

This is not meant to start any controvesy (hell, if I could get into Chicago wih a 162, why would I study my ass off to get a 170?!? It's just human nature).


You are mistaking something: I don't think URMS will say, "I can get into law schools easier than the rest of the population... so I won't study!"

There is a statistically significant lagging in the scores of URMs (in MCATS/PCATS/LSATS). It's important to keep a socio-context when thinking about these things into consideration.


I think your explanation is valid for explaining why URM on average score lower on most standadized tests. But I don't think it can explain the fact that out of roughly 10000 black URM students taking the LSAT, only 40-50 get a 170. I think this cannot be explained by socioeconomic factors alone. Many URMs go to top colleges, so you can reasonably assume that these people should have the intellectual horsepower and the right academic environment to support them. Still, only 40 to 50 actually do so every year.


Obviously it's not not socioeconomic factors that are contributing to it: it's a combination of things... I don't want to get into it and start an aa war.

That stuff gets crazzyyyyyy sometimes.


I'm with you

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Drake014
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Re: T14s accept 70-80 URMs per year? 50 URMs score >170?

Postby Drake014 » Mon Sep 28, 2009 3:08 pm

pjarron wrote:
Drake014 wrote:
lawlover829 wrote:
TheJudge wrote:Wow, only 40-50 black URMs score over 170 each year. That is quite shocking actually. Makes you wonder what the explanation is. Maybe it is just the fact, that as a URM, being aware that if you have a half decent GPA from a half decent college, something in the lower 160 will probably suffice to get you into a T20, if not T10 school. So consequently, URMs just take it easy on the LSAT.

This is not meant to start any controvesy (hell, if I could get into Chicago wih a 162, why would I study my ass off to get a 170?!? It's just human nature).


You are mistaking something: I don't think URMS will say, "I can get into law schools easier than the rest of the population... so I won't study!"

There is a statistically significant lagging in the scores of URMs (in MCATS/PCATS/LSATS). It's important to keep a socio-context when thinking about these things into consideration.


Just like with any group there's going to be variation. I'm a URM who did a significant amount of prep for the LSAT and scored much higher than I needed. Likewise, I've heard another URM talk about how they only needed to score so high to get into the grad program they wanted. I've also heard a rich white kid say he doesn't have to worry about his grades or his test scores because his father is alumni and a major donor. I find the latter scenario to be the most disturbing even though its the least talked about.


+1
I find it interesting how some people get so upset or disturbed over AA admissions yet I never hear a peep about legacy admissions and other admission policies which essentially reward people for being born to the right family with the right income and connections etc. But I’m sure there’s a good reason for this disparity.


The people who own Fox News benefit from legacy and connection related admissions policies, they don't benefit from AA admissions.

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rondemarino
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Re: T14s accept 70-80 URMs per year? 50 URMs score >170?

Postby rondemarino » Mon Sep 28, 2009 3:10 pm

Drake014 wrote:The people who own Fox News benefit from legacy and connection related admissions policies, they don't benefit from AA admissions.


Fixed, with link.

lawyeredup
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Re: T14s accept 70-80 URMs per year? 50 URMs score >170?

Postby lawyeredup » Mon Sep 28, 2009 3:15 pm

I am black Irish. Do i qualify?

HawksJetsFalcons
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Re: T14s accept 70-80 URMs per year? 50 URMs score >170?

Postby HawksJetsFalcons » Mon Sep 28, 2009 3:20 pm

That article just discouraged me a bit.

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Drake014
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Re: T14s accept 70-80 URMs per year? 50 URMs score >170?

Postby Drake014 » Mon Sep 28, 2009 3:20 pm

lawyeredup wrote:I am black Irish. Do i qualify?


Irish Coal miner? No. Black man with an accent that instantly makes him nonthreatening and intelligent sounding? Yes.

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lawlover829
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Re: T14s accept 70-80 URMs per year? 50 URMs score >170?

Postby lawlover829 » Mon Sep 28, 2009 3:26 pm

Drake014 wrote:
lawyeredup wrote:I am black Irish. Do i qualify?


Irish Coal miner? No. Black man with an accent that instantly makes him nonthreatening and intelligent sounding? Yes.


lol

02082010
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Re: T14s accept 70-80 URMs per year? 50 URMs score >170?

Postby 02082010 » Mon Sep 28, 2009 3:39 pm

Kohinoor wrote:A 170 is great but doesn't make you a lock. If your GPA is terrible, top schools will take a 3.8/164 URM over your 2.7/176. hth!


:? :evil:
ED, ftw!




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