Egyptian as URM?

(BLS, URM status, non-traditional, GLBT)
ak4097
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Egyptian as URM?

Postby ak4097 » Mon Aug 11, 2008 3:20 pm

I am egyptian and have always put either other or african american, I usually do not put white, because I am clearly not white when you look at me. So should I put african american for race? What do yall think?

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Splitt3r
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Re: Egyptian as URM?

Postby Splitt3r » Mon Aug 11, 2008 3:22 pm

Technically he's african-american, so why shouldn't he put it? Egypt is in Africa...

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Maye
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Re: Egyptian as URM?

Postby Maye » Mon Aug 11, 2008 3:23 pm

So you identify more as African than as Arab?

olderapplicant
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Re: Egyptian as URM?

Postby olderapplicant » Mon Aug 11, 2008 3:26 pm

are you also american?

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doctorgonzo
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Re: Egyptian as URM?

Postby doctorgonzo » Mon Aug 11, 2008 3:27 pm

ak4097 wrote:I am egyptian and have always put either other or african american, I usually do not put white, because I am clearly not white when you look at me. So should I put african american for race? What do yall think?


You are from Africa, so why wouldn't you? If I were in your position, that's what I would do. It comes closest.

littlebit
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Re: Egyptian as URM?

Postby littlebit » Mon Aug 11, 2008 3:31 pm

no clue, but I have always wanted to visit Egypt. I think you would definitely bring diversity to the class in a positive way, unless you were born here and have no ties to Egypt, then you are just like me, except with Egyptian relatives - but then my opinion really doesn't matter! Sorry about the post, I am just bored!

ak4097
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Re: Egyptian as URM?

Postby ak4097 » Mon Aug 11, 2008 3:48 pm

Ok let me clarify, my parents came in the early 80's, had me and my sisters here in north carolina, then we went and lived in egypt for 3 years, when i was younger, but I went to highschool, college here.......I am fluent in arabic and english. But yeah, I just wanted to hear if there was a rule about putting african american on my applications, because I am certainly not caucasian.......I mean would it be illegal to put african american, I mean Im not black black, like central africans, but I am very tan.

BiglawAmbitions
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Re: Egyptian as URM?

Postby BiglawAmbitions » Mon Aug 11, 2008 3:48 pm

Egyptians identify themselves as Arab. I've been to both Cairo and Alexandria, and if you refer to them as "African" they will be come very offended.

Technically, however, an American-born Egyptian would be considered an African American. This is similar to a white South African i.e. Dave Matthews.

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doctorgonzo
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Re: Egyptian as URM?

Postby doctorgonzo » Mon Aug 11, 2008 3:58 pm

ak4097 wrote:But yeah, I just wanted to hear if there was a rule about putting african american on my applications,
because I am certainly not caucasian.......I mean would it be illegal to put african american, I mean Im not black black, like central africans, but I am very tan.


Schools do not check, so don't worry about whether it is "illegal". If schools did check, that would require them to come up with explicit rules as to who falls in what racial category, and can you imagine if a school did that? It would be a nightmare. No school wants to go on the record saying whether a person with a white mother and a black father can check African-American, or a person with a black grandparent and three white grandparents...ad nauseum. It's a hornet's nest nobody wants to get into.

Your parents are from Africa and you lived in Africa, so despite the fact that Egyptians do not view themselves as African typically, you can go ahead and check that box knowing you aren't bending the rules even a little bit.

Incidentally, I've been to Egypt and I loved it.

ak4097
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Re: Egyptian as URM?

Postby ak4097 » Mon Aug 11, 2008 4:09 pm

yeah i go to egypt every summer to see my parents, and extended family.

I do not classify myself as african, but egyptians dont like to classify theirselves as arabs either (depending on who you speak to), we are kind of odd, we just like to say egyptian and let people draw their own conclusions.........but I have always put other or african american on applications, because I am technically african and american. But I think i was competitive anyway with my numbers, a 170, and a 3.42 chemical engineering degree, which is low.........., i am a patent examiner, so have legal experience, along with my personal statement, i really want to go to georgetown.............or any other top 14 school,

what do yall think my chances are, especially when i check the african american box (URM)

wahome
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Re: Egyptian as URM?

Postby wahome » Mon Aug 11, 2008 4:20 pm

ak4097 wrote:yeah i go to egypt every summer to see my parents, and extended family.

I do not classify myself as african, but egyptians dont like to classify theirselves as arabs either (depending on who you speak to), we are kind of odd, we just like to say egyptian and let people draw their own conclusions.........but I have always put other or african american on applications, because I am technically african and american. But I think i was competitive anyway with my numbers, a 170, and a 3.42 chemical engineering degree, which is low.........., i am a patent examiner, so have legal experience, along with my personal statement, i really want to go to georgetown.............or any other top 14 school,

what do yall think my chances are, especially when i check the african american box (URM)


such a fraud. you will only identify yourself as "African" only when it might mean gaining undue advantage over others.

riccardo426
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Re: Egyptian as URM?

Postby riccardo426 » Mon Aug 11, 2008 4:20 pm

Most of the times it is listed as Black/African-American, not just African-American. While technically African-American could mean americans of african descent, it instead refers to those descended from former slaves. Try applying for a scholarship for African-Americans, and see how they react when you go into the interview.

I don't know how black Africans get treated, but Egyptian definitely does not count. There have been similar threads about Moroccans here, I believe.

BiglawAmbitions
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Re: Egyptian as URM?

Postby BiglawAmbitions » Mon Aug 11, 2008 4:25 pm

ak4097 wrote:yeah i go to egypt every summer to see my parents, and extended family.

I do not classify myself as african, but egyptians dont like to classify theirselves as arabs either (depending on who you speak to), we are kind of odd, we just like to say egyptian and let people draw their own conclusions.........but I have always put other or african american on applications, because I am technically african and american. But I think i was competitive anyway with my numbers, a 170, and a 3.42 chemical engineering degree, which is low.........., i am a patent examiner, so have legal experience, along with my personal statement, i really want to go to georgetown.............or any other top 14 school,

what do yall think my chances are, especially when i check the african american box (URM)



In: GULC, Cornell, Duke and NU

Above average shot: NYU, Chicago, UPenn, UVA, and Michigan

Reach: Columbia

Out (still apply though): Boalt, Yale, Harvard, Stanford.

ak4097
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Re: Egyptian as URM?

Postby ak4097 » Mon Aug 11, 2008 4:31 pm

such a fraud. you will only identify yourself as "African" only when it might mean gaining undue advantage over others.



I agree, it is kind of not fair, but if you qualify for something, why not use it to your advantage, try to identify me as white, you will not be able to, and now you say not african, so basically we are left with other, I have been left out of both groups and have missed the boat on lots of things because of this. Like I said, i have a good shot anyway of gaining acceptance into top 15 schools with my stats, I will still make a decision on whether to check other or african american, but in no way am I doing something unethical or immoral or fraudulant.............it was simply me asking if anyone has done this or known of anyone who has done it

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doctorgonzo
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Re: Egyptian as URM?

Postby doctorgonzo » Mon Aug 11, 2008 4:33 pm

wahome wrote:
ak4097 wrote:such a fraud. you will only identify yourself as "African" only when it might mean gaining undue advantage over others.


:roll:

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RVP11
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Re: Egyptian as URM?

Postby RVP11 » Mon Aug 11, 2008 4:33 pm

An Egyptian checking the African-American box is really no different than a white South African or Zimbabwean checking the box.

It wasn't intended for you.

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BigAristotle
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Re: Egyptian as URM?

Postby BigAristotle » Mon Aug 11, 2008 4:44 pm

White South Africans, etc. do NOT classify as African-Americans. African-Americans refers to the more PC term for the Black population; not a chance for semantics. That's the same argument as 'I was born in America, so I'm a Native American'.

Egyptians are most likely identified in the Arab/Middle Eastern category, eligible for the diversity, but not the URM boost. There is nothing stopping you from checking the box claiming to be Black; but there is always the possibility your acceptance, scholarships, etc, may be rescinded from a law school for being less then honest on your application. Also, the BAR may feel it was less than honest, imposing a potential penalty on you there as well. Now, the likelihood of those happening? Probably not high, but they do exist.

Schools do not check, so don't worry about whether it is "illegal". If schools did check, that would require them to come up with explicit rules as to who falls in what racial category, and can you imagine if a school did that? It would be a nightmare. No school wants to go on the record saying whether a person with a white mother and a black father can check African-American, or a person with a black grandparent and three white grandparents...ad nauseum. It's a hornet's nest nobody wants to get into.


There is an example of a white male checking the African-American Box (I think, maybe one of the other 3 URM's), arriving at school, and being booted. That is a more blatant lie, but still falls in the category. Again, African-American is intended for the Black American population, not simply the continent of Africa with American citizenship.

You can check it, but it will be dishonest, and purposely. With a 170/3.42 (especially in Eng) Non-URM but if you focus on your Egyptian background it will help your app from diversity standpoint, you'll get a bite from at least some of the t14 schools. I'd say you have a very high chance for sure at Gtown; depending on softs and PS really.

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doctorgonzo
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Re: Egyptian as URM?

Postby doctorgonzo » Mon Aug 11, 2008 4:46 pm

BigAristotle wrote:White South Africans, etc. do NOT classify as African-Americans. African-Americans refers to the more PC term for the Black population; not a chance for semantics. That's the same argument as 'I was born in America, so I'm a Native American'.

There is an example of a white male checking the African-American Box (I think, maybe one of the other 3 URM's), arriving at school, and being booted. That is a more blatant lie, but still falls in the category. Again, African-American is intended for the Black American population, not simply the continent of Africa with American citizenship.


There is a huge population of Somali immigrants in the Twin Cities; since you say African-American is mean to refer to descendants of slaves, should a Somali immigrant check the African-American box?

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isaaca
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Re: Egyptian as URM?

Postby isaaca » Mon Aug 11, 2008 4:53 pm

jsporter wrote:An Egyptian checking the African-American box is really no different than a white South African or Zimbabwean checking the box.

It wasn't intended for you.


Wrong. It is intended primarily for people who are under-represented in the educational system for whatever reason...

It is not efficient to have check boxes that say, Black/African-American excluding Morocco, Egypt, South Africa or any other state that is not truly black or underrepresented.

That clearly does not make sense considering they dont relate themselves to being "black." Its a clear abuse of the system.

Just as Hispanic excludes Brazil and some other country in South-America (i forgot the name,) they do not have a checkbox that say Hispanic excluding Brazil and Spain. Brazil is clearly on a spanish speaking continent but they assume a "law school applicant" applying in the legal field will not abuse this system.

ak4097
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Re: Egyptian as URM?

Postby ak4097 » Mon Aug 11, 2008 4:56 pm

I am glad to get so many opinions on this issue, I am still not sure what to do but have taken all of the opinions above into consideration. I just think it is odd for some people to say some africans are not africans and some are africans....However, if I check african american, and talk about being egyptian in my personal statement will that hurt me? Will the readers come to the conclusion some of yall say, egypt is not african american? Or should i just check other, and talk about being egyptian in my personal statement, because either way my personal statement will not change, i have exploited the fact that I am very diverse and from egypt.

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RVP11
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Re: Egyptian as URM?

Postby RVP11 » Mon Aug 11, 2008 5:21 pm

isaaca wrote:
jsporter wrote:An Egyptian checking the African-American box is really no different than a white South African or Zimbabwean checking the box.

It wasn't intended for you.


Wrong. It is intended primarily for people who are under-represented in the educational system for whatever reason...

It is not efficient to have check boxes that say, Black/African-American excluding Morocco, Egypt, South Africa or any other state that is not truly black or underrepresented.

That clearly does not make sense considering they dont relate themselves to being "black." Its a clear abuse of the system.

Just as Hispanic excludes Brazil and some other country in South-America (i forgot the name,) they do not have a checkbox that say Hispanic excluding Brazil and Spain. Brazil is clearly on a spanish speaking continent but they assume a "law school applicant" applying in the legal field will not abuse this system.


How is it that you say "Wrong" but then don't follow up with anything inconsistent with what I said? I've never seen someone claim I'm wrong and then give a bunch of evidence that actually helps my case.

You said it's intended for people who are under-represented in the educational system. A large majority of Egyptians are Arab. Arab Americans are not under-represented. Case closed, I'd say.

OP: you can either take advantage of this or not. Use your own judgment. Just realize that affirmative action was not intended for your benefit.

markakis
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Re: Egyptian as URM?

Postby markakis » Mon Aug 11, 2008 5:29 pm

You see i've always wondered about the "Black/African American" box; does it mean 'African American a.k.a black'? or does it mean 'African American or whoever is black?

The reason I ask is because I'm Black but not American and was wondering how the adcomms would view me in comparison to the an African American. Anybody? Thanks

littlebit
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Re: Egyptian as URM?

Postby littlebit » Mon Aug 11, 2008 5:49 pm

I think you bring diversity to the table in a very positive way. I would be cautious about putting your diversity card and the African American card in the same deck. IMO, I would choose the one I was most comfortable with and go with that. I do know if I were an admission dean and I thought you were trying to get something for nothing - I would probably reject you. (unless you have stellar numbers, but then again we wouldn't be having this discussion if you had a 180, 4.0.) I imagine you come from a successful, educated home and your grandparents were not slaves. I do think you should always use every available advantage to increase your chances of getting what you want BUT you should do it with integrity. I actually think this is what you were asking, if you were entitled to both - maybe you should get a professional opinion on this because the true answer could make a big difference in your cycle.

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Fair Chance
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Re: Egyptian as URM?

Postby Fair Chance » Mon Aug 11, 2008 5:57 pm

ak4097 wrote:I am glad to get so many opinions on this issue, I am still not sure what to do but have taken all of the opinions above into consideration. I just think it is odd for some people to say some africans are not africans and some are africans....However, if I check african american, and talk about being egyptian in my personal statement will that hurt me? Will the readers come to the conclusion some of yall say, egypt is not african american? Or should i just check other, and talk about being egyptian in my personal statement, because either way my personal statement will not change, i have exploited the fact that I am very diverse and from egypt.


IMO your statement alone shows that you understand it is a category not meant for you.

My suggestion would be to check (and explain) other while providing a DS.

LonghornDub
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Re: Egyptian as URM?

Postby LonghornDub » Mon Aug 11, 2008 6:04 pm

I'd put African-American. Some people may advise you otherwise because they don't want you to receive what they might perceive as an "unfair" boost, but you are definitely African.




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