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Re: Egyptian as black (African American)?

Posted: Sat Aug 06, 2016 1:09 pm
by Take_WhatsYours
jnwa wrote:
Take_WhatsYours wrote:
izha wrote:
jnwa wrote:The URM boost is literally a box you check. If you identify as black, check the black box. They're not going to ancestry.com you.

I have a feeling that OP doesn't, but still would like to have a boost.


This is a fair and obvious criticism. To be honest, if I were on the streets and asked for my race I wouldn't say black; I would definitely say I'm a racial minority but I'd say I'm Egyptian. I have however identified as black in the past (on the UK Census) and think it is a reasonable self-description given how I am perceived. I can't say the same about white, the only other feasible alternative. And there is no "other" option.

So it's the box closest to my self-identification, although it doesn't perfectly capture it. I will clarify my heritage further on the diversity statement and expect to get a boost.

I should also note that many other people--e.g. East Indians--check boxes on applications that they wouldn't use to describe their race IRL. Moreover, most American immigrants from sub-Saharan Africa do not identify as black/AA--but rather, as Nigerian, etc--until they apply to law school. See http://lib.dr.iastate.edu/cgi/viewconte ... c_las_pubs

I think by checking black I'd be making an objectively reasonable claim that, subjectively, is definitely the best fit of the races listed. The schools would be left to determine the objective reasonableness, because I'm going to disclose my heritage to them.


I identify as Nigerian and Canadian and Black. The box says black/African american, i am the former but not the latter. If you wouldnt feel comfortable identifying yourself as black then dont. You can be Egyptian and black but you could also be Egyptian and Arab which is what it seems like. Like i said before, you have enough of a claim to put down black regardless but if youre doing it for the boost its cunty.


Copts don't identify as Arab; nor are they genetically Arab.

Westerners want to draw a sharp, binary distinction between "black Egyptians" and "white Egyptians" but the truth is much more nuanced. Genetically, virtually all Egyptians have substantial Middle Eastern, South European, and sub-Saharan African ancestry. Hence Egyptians come in varied complexions. Look at the Wikipedia link for genetic history of Egypt if you're interested.

Plenty of "black" Americans can and do pass for Egyptian--particularly in the south--and not just in Nubia.

I understand your criticism that it's "cunty," given my personal identification. But I honestly think it--"black," not "technically African African"--is the closest box of the ones listed. Moreover, as the study I linked to shows, it is very common for immigrants from Africa to identify as black (as opposed to Nigerian, etc) for the first time on college applications.

I'd be more inclined to respect the system if there wasn't so much blatant gamesmanship going on. E.G. white people like "VanWinkle," with no indigenous American ancestry, checking "Hispanic" because a parent or grandparent was born in Latin America. I don't see how my situation is less defensible than that.

Re: Egyptian as black (African American)?

Posted: Sat Aug 06, 2016 1:19 pm
by jnwa
x

Re: Egyptian as black (African American)?

Posted: Sat Aug 06, 2016 1:20 pm
by Take_WhatsYours
jnwa wrote:
Take_WhatsYours wrote:
jnwa wrote:
Take_WhatsYours wrote:
izha wrote:
jnwa wrote:The URM boost is literally a box you check. If you identify as black, check the black box. They're not going to ancestry.com you.

I have a feeling that OP doesn't, but still would like to have a boost.


This is a fair and obvious criticism. To be honest, if I were on the streets and asked for my race I wouldn't say black; I would definitely say I'm a racial minority but I'd say I'm Egyptian. I have however identified as black in the past (on the UK Census) and think it is a reasonable self-description given how I am perceived. I can't say the same about white, the only other feasible alternative. And there is no "other" option.

So it's the box closest to my self-identification, although it doesn't perfectly capture it. I will clarify my heritage further on the diversity statement and expect to get a boost.

I should also note that many other people--e.g. East Indians--check boxes on applications that they wouldn't use to describe their race IRL. Moreover, most American immigrants from sub-Saharan Africa do not identify as black/AA--but rather, as Nigerian, etc--until they apply to law school. See http://lib.dr.iastate.edu/cgi/viewconte ... c_las_pubs

I think by checking black I'd be making an objectively reasonable claim that, subjectively, is definitely the best fit of the races listed. The schools would be left to determine the objective reasonableness, because I'm going to disclose my heritage to them.


I identify as Nigerian and Canadian and Black. The box says black/African american, i am the former but not the latter. If you wouldnt feel comfortable identifying yourself as black then dont. You can be Egyptian and black but you could also be Egyptian and Arab which is what it seems like. Like i said before, you have enough of a claim to put down black regardless but if youre doing it for the boost its cunty.


Copts don't identify as Arab; nor are they genetically Arab.

Westerners want to draw a sharp, binary distinction between "black Egyptians" and "white Egyptians" but the truth is much more nuanced. Genetically, virtually all Egyptians have substantial Middle Eastern, South European, and sub-Saharan African ancestry. Hence Egyptians come in varied complexions. Look at the Wikipedia link for genetic history of Egypt if you're interested.

Plenty of "black" Americans can and do pass for Egyptian--particularly in the south--and not just in Nubia.

I understand your criticism that it's "cunty," given my personal identification. But I honestly think it--"black," not "technically African African"--is the closest box of the ones listed. Moreover, as the study I linked to shows, it is very common for immigrants from Africa to identify as black (as opposed to Nigerian, etc) for the first time on college applications.

I'd be more inclined to respect the system if there wasn't so much blatant gamesmanship going on. E.G. white people like "VanWinkle," with no indigenous American ancestry, checking "Hispanic" because a parent or grandparent was born in Latin America. I don't see how my situation is less defensible than that.


there is a box for middle eastern..why wouldnt you just check that


Because it's listed under "white," and I have never and not once seen myself or been seen by others as white. (Conversely, I have at times identified as black, even though "Coptic" would be my preferred self-id.) LSAC says I can check AA if I think it's a better fit.

Re: Egyptian as black (African American)?

Posted: Sat Aug 06, 2016 1:23 pm
by A. Nony Mouse
FWIW, the U.K. has a pretty different definition of black than the U.S. Basically, the US distinguishes between brown and black, while the UK tends to call anyone who's not white, black (including the n-word). So being called black in the UK doesn't govern how that term is used in the US. And I don't think it's weird for Nigerians etc. to self-identify as black once they get to the US given that the US uses the definition "having origins in the black peoples of Africa."

Which is just to say that you are best off checking whatever you personally identify with, being very clear about what your ancestry is, and letting the chips fall where they may. I wouldn't base my entire application strategy on getting the boost - you will just have to see what happens. (Personally I think "the boost" is a little less rigid/dogmatic than most people here do, but am also not an adcomm, so my opinion is worth what you're paying for it.)

I'm also moving this into the thread dedicated to this question.

Re: Egyptian as black (African American)?

Posted: Sat Aug 06, 2016 1:25 pm
by jnwa
x

Ethnicity Question

Posted: Fri Sep 30, 2016 5:40 pm
by Tazewell
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Re: Ethnicity Question

Posted: Fri Sep 30, 2016 5:43 pm
by cavalier1138
Sounds like you don't identify as Hispanic/Latinx, so no.

In general, if you have to ask: no. Just don't.

URM status for South Asians

Posted: Tue Nov 29, 2016 2:17 am
by bns212
I know that URM status is given to students who are under represented in the legal profession, but I don't see South Asians in that mix, specifically Pakistanis (who I believe are under represented), nor do I see anything about religious minorities. If I'm not technically URM, will my background help my chances at all?

Re: URM status for South Asians

Posted: Tue Nov 29, 2016 2:35 am
by Bob loblaw law blog
People will write longer posts about this but if I'll just rip the bandaid off for you: No it won't qualify as URM and it probably won't help expect for at the margins and/or to help you write a personal/diversity statement if you can make a decent narrative out of it. Even that probably won't matter. The only major factors in the admissions game if you aren't URM are your numbers and maybe work experience.

Re: Am I a URM???/Is___ race/circumstance considered URM??

Posted: Thu Dec 01, 2016 2:05 pm
by notorious_mig
HEY friends I am new to TLS and I'm so sorry if this has already been addressed pls bear with me

So I am half Paraguayan (my dad was born in Paraguay, all of his family minus his mom/sister/one uncle and one aunt still live there, I grew up speaking Spanish alongside English, blah blah blah and tbh you are all missing out on chipitas aka the most delicious cheesy bread in the universe) but also extremely white. I know this is separate for law school apps. BUT. I got an e-mail about SEO internships for "students of color" and I think they assume that Latina = student of color? I feel totally fine identifying as Latina but feel very uncomfortable identifying as a student of color because I think that's a huge misrepresentation of my lived experience aka I know without a doubt I benefit from white privilege (in ways that other members of my dad's family, including my abuelita and to a lesser extent my dad, most certainly do not).

TLDR: Is it disingenuous for a white Latina to apply for an SEO internship?

Thanks much love <3

Re: Am I a URM???/Is___ race/circumstance considered URM??

Posted: Thu Dec 01, 2016 4:52 pm
by bk1
notorious_mig wrote:TLDR: Is it disingenuous for a white Latina to apply for an SEO internship?

No.

Re: Am I a URM???/Is___ race/circumstance considered URM??

Posted: Thu Dec 01, 2016 5:21 pm
by poptart123
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Re: Am I a URM???/Is___ race/circumstance considered URM??

Posted: Fri Dec 02, 2016 10:12 am
by notorious_mig
poptart123 wrote:
notorious_mig wrote:HEY friends I am new to TLS and I'm so sorry if this has already been addressed pls bear with me

So I am half Paraguayan (my dad was born in Paraguay, all of his family minus his mom/sister/one uncle and one aunt still live there, I grew up speaking Spanish alongside English, blah blah blah and tbh you are all missing out on chipitas aka the most delicious cheesy bread in the universe) but also extremely white. I know this is separate for law school apps. BUT. I got an e-mail about SEO internships for "students of color" and I think they assume that Latina = student of color? I feel totally fine identifying as Latina but feel very uncomfortable identifying as a student of color because I think that's a huge misrepresentation of my lived experience aka I know without a doubt I benefit from white privilege (in ways that other members of my dad's family, including my abuelita and to a lesser extent my dad, most certainly do not).

TLDR: Is it disingenuous for a white Latina to apply for an SEO internship?

Thanks much love <3


I'm mixed Mex/Cauc with a VERY white first and last name (Scottish father). I'm dark enough to look like I'm from southern Italy, but that's about it. However, I've always identified with both of my cultures, and just because others may have a different skin color than me doesn't mean I don't belong. Three famous Mexican-American politicians from San Antonio are Julian Castro, Joaquin Castro, and Henry Cisneros. None of the three speak Spanish, but that doesn't make them any less Mexican-American because of it.


1) Julian Castro is bae but also 2) yes that's an excellent point. Wow there are very weird social standards for what it means to be Latin@, like do you have to look a certain way? Talk a certain way? Celebrate certain holidays? Just have lineage in that country? Anyways thank you so much for your thoughtful and very helpful response!

Re: Am I a URM???/Is___ race/circumstance considered URM??

Posted: Fri Dec 02, 2016 10:20 am
by poptart123
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Re: Am I a URM???/Is___ race/circumstance considered URM??

Posted: Fri Dec 02, 2016 12:10 pm
by notorious_mig
poptart123 wrote:
notorious_mig wrote:
poptart123 wrote:
notorious_mig wrote:HEY friends I am new to TLS and I'm so sorry if this has already been addressed pls bear with me

So I am half Paraguayan (my dad was born in Paraguay, all of his family minus his mom/sister/one uncle and one aunt still live there, I grew up speaking Spanish alongside English, blah blah blah and tbh you are all missing out on chipitas aka the most delicious cheesy bread in the universe) but also extremely white. I know this is separate for law school apps. BUT. I got an e-mail about SEO internships for "students of color" and I think they assume that Latina = student of color? I feel totally fine identifying as Latina but feel very uncomfortable identifying as a student of color because I think that's a huge misrepresentation of my lived experience aka I know without a doubt I benefit from white privilege (in ways that other members of my dad's family, including my abuelita and to a lesser extent my dad, most certainly do not).

TLDR: Is it disingenuous for a white Latina to apply for an SEO internship?

Thanks much love <3


I'm mixed Mex/Cauc with a VERY white first and last name (Scottish father). I'm dark enough to look like I'm from southern Italy, but that's about it. However, I've always identified with both of my cultures, and just because others may have a different skin color than me doesn't mean I don't belong. Three famous Mexican-American politicians from San Antonio are Julian Castro, Joaquin Castro, and Henry Cisneros. None of the three speak Spanish, but that doesn't make them any less Mexican-American because of it.


1) Julian Castro is bae but also 2) yes that's an excellent point. Wow there are very weird social standards for what it means to be Latin@, like do you have to look a certain way? Talk a certain way? Celebrate certain holidays? Just have lineage in that country? Anyways thank you so much for your thoughtful and very helpful response!


It's a question I've always struggled with. I've been labeled a Mexican by whites, and I've been labeled white by Mexicans, but ultimately who is to tell you what group you identify with, and why can't it be both? It's your identity and your experiences. You're not a Rachel Dolezal (I think?). You know yourself and your experiences better than anybody else, and you have the blood in your veins to back it up.


Yo same!!! At my very white undergrad it made people uncomfortable when I called my grandmother "abuelita" or when they learned that my dad's name is Juan Carlos. I 100% identify as both Paraguayan and American (my mom was raised on a hog farm in rural Indiana - I don't think it gets much more American than that haha). And it's cool/fun/enlightening to have such different experiences on the two sides of my family - a hog farmer from Winchester, IN (or "Wintucky" as my mom calls it), and an immigrant from AsunciĆ³n, the capital city of Paraguay, are certainly not going to have identical perspectives on life.

Re: Am I a URM???/Is___ race/circumstance considered URM??

Posted: Fri Dec 02, 2016 1:33 pm
by Thomas Hagan, ESQ.
I know a kid that said he was Black/African-American because his dad was a Boer from South Africa...and got into SLS (3.6x/16x). When you ask him what his heritage is, he says "German-American." lol

Re: Am I a URM???/Is___ race/circumstance considered URM??

Posted: Fri Dec 02, 2016 8:29 pm
by Danger Zone
Thomas Hagan, ESQ. wrote:I know a kid that said he was Black/African-American because his dad was a Boer from South Africa...and got into SLS (3.6x/16x). When you ask him what his heritage is, he says "German-American." lol

Gotta love the shit eating "lol" at the end of that

Re: Am I a URM???/Is___ race/circumstance considered URM??

Posted: Fri Dec 02, 2016 8:32 pm
by drumpf
Thomas Hagan, ESQ. wrote:I know a kid that said he was Black/African-American because his dad was a Boer from South Africa...and got into SLS (3.6x/16x). When you ask him what his heritage is, he says "German-American." lol



I don't believe that for a second, still funny though.

Re: Am I a URM???/Is___ race/circumstance considered URM??

Posted: Sat Dec 03, 2016 7:00 am
by Thomas Hagan, ESQ.
drumpf wrote:
Thomas Hagan, ESQ. wrote:I know a kid that said he was Black/African-American because his dad was a Boer from South Africa...and got into SLS (3.6x/16x). When you ask him what his heritage is, he says "German-American." lol



I don't believe that for a second, still funny though.


Wait, it's actually a true story unfortunately. He put himself down as African American on his apps, has a south african father who is white dutch/german, received emails from Stanford BLSA last summer, and looks like a male Tiffany Trump.

Re: Am I a URM???/Is___ race/circumstance considered URM??

Posted: Sat Dec 03, 2016 8:44 am
by drumpf
Thomas Hagan, ESQ. wrote:
drumpf wrote:
Thomas Hagan, ESQ. wrote:I know a kid that said he was Black/African-American because his dad was a Boer from South Africa...and got into SLS (3.6x/16x). When you ask him what his heritage is, he says "German-American." lol



I don't believe that for a second, still funny though.


Wait, it's actually a true story unfortunately. He put himself down as African American on his apps, has a south african father who is white dutch/german, received emails from Stanford BLSA last summer, and looks like a male Tiffany Trump.


What? I can't even.. How did he get away with that? Didn't anyone from the admissions office question when he finally matriculated? Can't he be expelled for lying on an app lmao.

Re: Am I a URM???/Is___ race/circumstance considered URM??

Posted: Mon Dec 05, 2016 4:08 pm
by Thomas Hagan, ESQ.
drumpf wrote:
Thomas Hagan, ESQ. wrote:
drumpf wrote:
Thomas Hagan, ESQ. wrote:I know a kid that said he was Black/African-American because his dad was a Boer from South Africa...and got into SLS (3.6x/16x). When you ask him what his heritage is, he says "German-American." lol



I don't believe that for a second, still funny though.


Wait, it's actually a true story unfortunately. He put himself down as African American on his apps, has a south african father who is white dutch/german, received emails from Stanford BLSA last summer, and looks like a male Tiffany Trump.


What? I can't even.. How did he get away with that? Didn't anyone from the admissions office question when he finally matriculated? Can't he be expelled for lying on an app lmao.


I mean...i think the school can get into a lot of trouble for being like "ummmm, no you're not" LOL

Re: Am I a URM???/Is___ race/circumstance considered URM??

Posted: Thu Dec 08, 2016 11:37 pm
by chandhi
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Re: Am I a URM???/Is___ race/circumstance considered URM??

Posted: Fri Dec 16, 2016 5:32 pm
by lucillebluthismyhero
Ok, hesitantly posting in here because I want to know: I'm a non-traditional (29) gay, married, with latino heritage (my grandfather immigrated from Columbia).

Middle Easterners are not considered a "URM"?

Posted: Tue Dec 20, 2016 7:29 pm
by pleaseberkeley
I assumed that someone who is of Afghan descent, Tajik descent, etc (obscure Middle Eastern/central asian) would be considered an underrepresented minority. But I am also hearing that this box should only be checked if you are hispanic or latino, american indian, or african american. Is there a URM box you check, or do you just get filed under this category if you are black, Hispanic, or indian? What happens if you check it anyway because, well, you are an underrepresented minority but not a "URM" in this law school context? I mean if someone who's parents are from Uzbekistan check the "URM" box, there should never be a problem about this, ever. Is there some consequence if he does?

Re: Middle Easterners are not considered a "URM"?

Posted: Tue Dec 20, 2016 7:45 pm
by playersball
In my experience, law school applications will ask for your race/ethnicity- as opposed to, "Are you an underrepresented minority?" If there is a box you check (maybe on an application for a school I did not see, maybe someone else can speak to this) they will likely define who they consider URM and ask you to answer based on their definition.