Am I a URM???/Is___ race/circumstance considered URM??

(BLS, URM status, non-traditional, GLBT)
Take_WhatsYours
Posts: 16
Joined: Thu Aug 04, 2016 4:11 pm

Re: Egyptian as black (African American)?

Postby Take_WhatsYours » Thu Aug 04, 2016 6:29 pm

rav17 wrote:
Take_WhatsYours wrote:
youngwarrior wrote:
Take_WhatsYours wrote:
rav17 wrote:North africans don't get any boost, only those that have subsaharan african ancestry.

By that logic, Somalis wouldn't be eligible for the boost, which they clearly are. AA is defined as "black African," not sub-Saharan African. "Black" has a vague meaning that is, nonetheless, much closer to how I am perceived than "white."


I know a Black Canadian who is of Somalian ancestry, he went to my alma mater and just graduated from Yale Law School. He didn't get any boost, but his stats we're extremely competitive, he was even a k-jd.


We'll see what happens with my application. I'm willing to bet that at least a few T-14 schools will give me a boost. I think this sort of decision will be made on an ad hoc basis, with some schools agreeing and others disagreeing.

The problem that North Africans who have tried to do this in the past have is that they're trying to say they're 'African American but not black,' which is obviously ridiculous. The real vagueness lies in the concept of blackness. As I say, North Africans are labeled black under UK law, and most could not pass for white in a million years.

There are also cases of Egyptian Americans identifying as black with no apparent consequences, and acceptance from the black community. CNN recently ran a story called "black in America" where an Egyptian girl named Becca identified as black.


I wish you the best of luck in your cycle, however I am betting you will not receive a boost. African/Black as defined by the law school admissions council is someone who has whole or partial subsaharan african ancestry. There is a completely different category for North Africans and that is the box you'll have to tick.


Do you have a citation for AA=sub-saharan for purposes of law school applications? Because if that's true, that's obviously a game-changer.

The admissions consultant I've spoken to--former Dean of Admissions at a T6--says AA=black African, not necessarily sub-Saharan. (Hence, as I say, Nubians, Somalis and Sudanese are eligible for the AA boost, if they choose to identify as AA, despite technically hailing from north of the Sahara). She has also told me that me that many North Africans have done this.

rav17
Posts: 41
Joined: Fri Jan 08, 2016 4:09 pm

Re: Egyptian as black (African American)?

Postby rav17 » Thu Aug 04, 2016 6:32 pm

Take_WhatsYours wrote:
rav17 wrote:
Take_WhatsYours wrote:
youngwarrior wrote:
Take_WhatsYours wrote:
rav17 wrote:North africans don't get any boost, only those that have subsaharan african ancestry.

By that logic, Somalis wouldn't be eligible for the boost, which they clearly are. AA is defined as "black African," not sub-Saharan African. "Black" has a vague meaning that is, nonetheless, much closer to how I am perceived than "white."


I know a Black Canadian who is of Somalian ancestry, he went to my alma mater and just graduated from Yale Law School. He didn't get any boost, but his stats we're extremely competitive, he was even a k-jd.


We'll see what happens with my application. I'm willing to bet that at least a few T-14 schools will give me a boost. I think this sort of decision will be made on an ad hoc basis, with some schools agreeing and others disagreeing.

The problem that North Africans who have tried to do this in the past have is that they're trying to say they're 'African American but not black,' which is obviously ridiculous. The real vagueness lies in the concept of blackness. As I say, North Africans are labeled black under UK law, and most could not pass for white in a million years.

There are also cases of Egyptian Americans identifying as black with no apparent consequences, and acceptance from the black community. CNN recently ran a story called "black in America" where an Egyptian girl named Becca identified as black.


I wish you the best of luck in your cycle, however I am betting you will not receive a boost. African/Black as defined by the law school admissions council is someone who has whole or partial subsaharan african ancestry. There is a completely different category for North Africans and that is the box you'll have to tick.


Do you have a citation for AA=sub-saharan for purposes of law school applications? Because if that's true, that's obviously a game-changer.

The admissions consultant I've spoken to--former Dean of Admissions at a T6--says AA=black African, not necessarily sub-Saharan. (Hence, as I say, Nubians, Somalis and Sudanese are eligible for the AA boost, if they choose to identify as AA, despite technically hailing from north of the Sahara). She has also told me that me that many North Africans have done this.



Logic into your LSAC account. If you are north african but have some subsaharan african ancestry you can get the boost. However full blooded Egyptians and Tunisians aren't getting a boost.
Last edited by rav17 on Thu Aug 04, 2016 6:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Take_WhatsYours
Posts: 16
Joined: Thu Aug 04, 2016 4:11 pm

Re: Egyptian as black (African American)?

Postby Take_WhatsYours » Thu Aug 04, 2016 6:33 pm

rav17 wrote:
Take_WhatsYours wrote:
rav17 wrote:
Take_WhatsYours wrote:
youngwarrior wrote:
Take_WhatsYours wrote:
rav17 wrote:North africans don't get any boost, only those that have subsaharan african ancestry.

By that logic, Somalis wouldn't be eligible for the boost, which they clearly are. AA is defined as "black African," not sub-Saharan African. "Black" has a vague meaning that is, nonetheless, much closer to how I am perceived than "white."


I know a Black Canadian who is of Somalian ancestry, he went to my alma mater and just graduated from Yale Law School. He didn't get any boost, but his stats we're extremely competitive, he was even a k-jd.


We'll see what happens with my application. I'm willing to bet that at least a few T-14 schools will give me a boost. I think this sort of decision will be made on an ad hoc basis, with some schools agreeing and others disagreeing.

The problem that North Africans who have tried to do this in the past have is that they're trying to say they're 'African American but not black,' which is obviously ridiculous. The real vagueness lies in the concept of blackness. As I say, North Africans are labeled black under UK law, and most could not pass for white in a million years.

There are also cases of Egyptian Americans identifying as black with no apparent consequences, and acceptance from the black community. CNN recently ran a story called "black in America" where an Egyptian girl named Becca identified as black.


I wish you the best of luck in your cycle, however I am betting you will not receive a boost. African/Black as defined by the law school admissions council is someone who has whole or partial subsaharan african ancestry. There is a completely different category for North Africans and that is the box you'll have to tick.


Do you have a citation for AA=sub-saharan for purposes of law school applications? Because if that's true, that's obviously a game-changer.

The admissions consultant I've spoken to--former Dean of Admissions at a T6--says AA=black African, not necessarily sub-Saharan. (Hence, as I say, Nubians, Somalis and Sudanese are eligible for the AA boost, if they choose to identify as AA, despite technically hailing from north of the Sahara). She has also told me that me that many North Africans have done this.



Logic into your LSAC account.


Nowhere does it say "sub-Saharan." It says AA=black. They are going off of the census, which says black, not sub-Saharan.

rav17
Posts: 41
Joined: Fri Jan 08, 2016 4:09 pm

Re: Egyptian as black (African American)?

Postby rav17 » Thu Aug 04, 2016 6:34 pm

Take_WhatsYours wrote:
Nowhere does it say "sub-Saharan." It says AA=black. They are going off of the census, which says black, not sub-Saharan.


Scroll down there's a box for North Africans. There is also a citation by LSAC, look it up.

Take_WhatsYours
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Joined: Thu Aug 04, 2016 4:11 pm

Re: Egyptian as black (African American)?

Postby Take_WhatsYours » Thu Aug 04, 2016 6:41 pm

rav17 wrote:
Take_WhatsYours wrote:
Nowhere does it say "sub-Saharan." It says AA=black. They are going off of the census, which says black, not sub-Saharan.


Scroll down there's a box for North Africans. There is also a citation by LSAC, look it up.


I have already emailed LSAC, and they told me unequivocally that, even though I'm North African, I don't have to check white if I don't identify as white or look the part. (Again, Google Tariq Ramadan to see what I basically look like.) I'm still waiting on your citation that AA=sub-Saharan (as opposed to merely black) African. Nowhere do the LSAC boxes or federal definitions of race state this.

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Jordan Catalano
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Re: Egyptian as black (African American)?

Postby Jordan Catalano » Thu Aug 04, 2016 6:47 pm

Take_WhatsYours wrote:
rav17 wrote:
Take_WhatsYours wrote:
Nowhere does it say "sub-Saharan." It says AA=black. They are going off of the census, which says black, not sub-Saharan.


Scroll down there's a box for North Africans. There is also a citation by LSAC, look it up.


I have already emailed LSAC, and they told me unequivocally that, even though I'm North African, I don't have to check white if I don't identify as white or look the part. (Again, Google Tariq Ramadan to see what I basically look like.) I'm still waiting on your citation that AA=sub-Saharan (as opposed to merely black) African. Nowhere do the LSAC boxes or federal definitions of race state this.


FYI, I asked about this too, and I was told to check the box I identify most with. You can msg me for more info if you want. But really, I guarantee you that nobody is going to come after a North African for not checking the "white" box, especially one with your story.

rav17
Posts: 41
Joined: Fri Jan 08, 2016 4:09 pm

Re: Egyptian as black (African American)?

Postby rav17 » Thu Aug 04, 2016 6:48 pm

Take_WhatsYours wrote:
rav17 wrote:
Take_WhatsYours wrote:
Nowhere does it say "sub-Saharan." It says AA=black. They are going off of the census, which says black, not sub-Saharan.


Scroll down there's a box for North Africans. There is also a citation by LSAC, look it up.


I have already emailed LSAC, and they told me unequivocally that, even though I'm North African, I don't have to check white if I don't identify as white or look the part. (Again, Google Tariq Ramadan to see what I basically look like.) I'm still waiting on your citation that AA=sub-Saharan (as opposed to merely black) African. Nowhere do the LSAC boxes or federal definitions of race state this.


I never said that you had to check caucasian box that's a straw man argument, obviously you are obligated to select all the categories that apply to you, I am not disputing that. LSAC made a clear distinction between North Africans and Black/African Americans (those of subsaharan ancestry) otherwise they would not have included a box for the former category. Call or e-mail LSAC if you want an explicit definition i'm at work at the moment and don't currently have the time do go dig up the citation for you. You can't just go around masquerading as a subsaharan african when you are clearly north african and I don't think it would be prudent to lie on your application. I mean we can go back and forth all day long, but i'm telling you if you are Egyptian, and only have Eguptian blood you're not getting a boost. If you were part Nigerian or something it would be a completely different story.
Last edited by rav17 on Thu Aug 04, 2016 6:52 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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cdotson2
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Re: Egyptian as black (African American)?

Postby cdotson2 » Thu Aug 04, 2016 6:49 pm

Take_WhatsYours wrote:I have already emailed LSAC, and they told me unequivocally that, even though I'm North African, I don't have to check white if I don't identify as white or look the part. (Again, Google Tariq Ramadan to see what I basically look like.) I'm still waiting on your citation that AA=sub-Saharan (as opposed to merely black) African. Nowhere do the LSAC boxes or federal definitions of race state this.

If you look like this and you havn't claimed you are black in the past I wouldn't do it now. This man obviously looks Egyptian/Arabic. Also agree with the above you don't need to check Caucasian, but you should check what you identify as and the way you have framed the posts in this thread seem to clearly indicate you do not identify as African American.
Image
Last edited by cdotson2 on Thu Aug 04, 2016 6:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Take_WhatsYours
Posts: 16
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Re: Egyptian as black (African American)?

Postby Take_WhatsYours » Thu Aug 04, 2016 6:52 pm

rav17 wrote:
Take_WhatsYours wrote:
rav17 wrote:
Take_WhatsYours wrote:
Nowhere does it say "sub-Saharan." It says AA=black. They are going off of the census, which says black, not sub-Saharan.


Scroll down there's a box for North Africans. There is also a citation by LSAC, look it up.


I have already emailed LSAC, and they told me unequivocally that, even though I'm North African, I don't have to check white if I don't identify as white or look the part. (Again, Google Tariq Ramadan to see what I basically look like.) I'm still waiting on your citation that AA=sub-Saharan (as opposed to merely black) African. Nowhere do the LSAC boxes or federal definitions of race state this.


I never said that you had to check caucasian box that's a straw man argument, obviously you are obligated to select all the categories that apply to you, I am not disputing that. LSAC made a clear distinction between North Africans and Black/African Americans (those of subsaharan ancestry) otherwise they would not have included a box for the former category. Call or e-mail LSAC if you want an explicit definition i'm at work at the moment and don't currently have the time do go dig up the citation for you. You can't just go around masquerading as a subsaharan african when you are clearly north african.


Dude, LSAC told me I can check African American, as did a former Dean of Admissions at a T6, as have several (though not all) of the law schools I have contacted. AA is defined as black African--not sub-Saharan, but "black"--and includes many people (Sudanese, Somalis, etc) who descend from north of the Sahara. If you can provide me a citation from the government or LSAC saying that it means sub-Saharan, I will concede your point and not check the box. But you sound like you're just making an assumption without checking it.

There is ambiguity about the meaning of blackness. But some schools, as well as the UK government, apparently think I qualify. I think it's a much better fit than white.

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lymenheimer
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Re: Egyptian as black (African American)?

Postby lymenheimer » Thu Aug 04, 2016 6:57 pm

What a troll. Guys please just ignore this loser. He comes to an anon message board after getting the green light from both LSAC and an admissions consultant and is still unsure. Either an idiot or a troll.

rav17
Posts: 41
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Re: Egyptian as black (African American)?

Postby rav17 » Thu Aug 04, 2016 7:02 pm

Take_WhatsYours wrote:
rav17 wrote:
Take_WhatsYours wrote:
rav17 wrote:
Take_WhatsYours wrote:
Nowhere does it say "sub-Saharan." It says AA=black. They are going off of the census, which says black, not sub-Saharan.


Scroll down there's a box for North Africans. There is also a citation by LSAC, look it up.


I have already emailed LSAC, and they told me unequivocally that, even though I'm North African, I don't have to check white if I don't identify as white or look the part. (Again, Google Tariq Ramadan to see what I basically look like.) I'm still waiting on your citation that AA=sub-Saharan (as opposed to merely black) African. Nowhere do the LSAC boxes or federal definitions of race state this.


I never said that you had to check caucasian box that's a straw man argument, obviously you are obligated to select all the categories that apply to you, I am not disputing that. LSAC made a clear distinction between North Africans and Black/African Americans (those of subsaharan ancestry) otherwise they would not have included a box for the former category. Call or e-mail LSAC if you want an explicit definition i'm at work at the moment and don't currently have the time do go dig up the citation for you. You can't just go around masquerading as a subsaharan african when you are clearly north african.


Dude, LSAC told me I can check African American, as did a former Dean of Admissions at a T6, as have several (though not all) of the law schools I have contacted. AA is defined as black African--not sub-Saharan, but "black"--and includes many people (Sudanese, Somalis, etc) who descend from north of the Sahara. If you can provide me a citation from the government or LSAC saying that it means sub-Saharan, I will concede your point and not check the box. But you sound like you're just making an assumption without checking it.

There is ambiguity about the meaning of blackness. But some schools, as well as the UK government, apparently think I qualify. I think it's a much better fit than white.


We've discussed this ad nauseam you're not a URM. You've conceded that you don't have subsaharan ancestry, but you claim that you identify as african american because you just became an american citizen and are coptic Egyptian. By your logic someone who white guy from South African who emigrates to the U.S and becomes a U.S citizen could also identify as being African American and get the boost because even though they don't have subsaharan ancestry, they're African.

Consult this thread before you respond: viewtopic.php?f=14&t=35568&p=8707394&hilit=north+african#p8707394

Take_WhatsYours
Posts: 16
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Re: Egyptian as black (African American)?

Postby Take_WhatsYours » Thu Aug 04, 2016 7:06 pm

rav17 wrote:
Take_WhatsYours wrote:
rav17 wrote:
Take_WhatsYours wrote:
rav17 wrote:
Take_WhatsYours wrote:
Nowhere does it say "sub-Saharan." It says AA=black. They are going off of the census, which says black, not sub-Saharan.


Scroll down there's a box for North Africans. There is also a citation by LSAC, look it up.


I have already emailed LSAC, and they told me unequivocally that, even though I'm North African, I don't have to check white if I don't identify as white or look the part. (Again, Google Tariq Ramadan to see what I basically look like.) I'm still waiting on your citation that AA=sub-Saharan (as opposed to merely black) African. Nowhere do the LSAC boxes or federal definitions of race state this.


I never said that you had to check caucasian box that's a straw man argument, obviously you are obligated to select all the categories that apply to you, I am not disputing that. LSAC made a clear distinction between North Africans and Black/African Americans (those of subsaharan ancestry) otherwise they would not have included a box for the former category. Call or e-mail LSAC if you want an explicit definition i'm at work at the moment and don't currently have the time do go dig up the citation for you. You can't just go around masquerading as a subsaharan african when you are clearly north african.


Dude, LSAC told me I can check African American, as did a former Dean of Admissions at a T6, as have several (though not all) of the law schools I have contacted. AA is defined as black African--not sub-Saharan, but "black"--and includes many people (Sudanese, Somalis, etc) who descend from north of the Sahara. If you can provide me a citation from the government or LSAC saying that it means sub-Saharan, I will concede your point and not check the box. But you sound like you're just making an assumption without checking it.

There is ambiguity about the meaning of blackness. But some schools, as well as the UK government, apparently think I qualify. I think it's a much better fit than white.


We've discussed this ad nauseam you're not a URM. You've conceded that you don't have subsaharan ancestry, but you claim that you identify as african american because you just became an american citizen and are coptic Egyptian. By your logic someone who white guy from South African who emigrates to the U.S and becomes a U.S citizen could also identify as being African American and get the boost because even though they don't have subsaharan ancestry, they're African.


Dumb analogy, considering that Coptic Egyptians are racially "black" under a plausible definition of the term (e.g. the definition used by the UK government, which I've checked off my whole life). I have always been perceived as a PoC and have been called the n-word; Afrikaaners are never perceived as black.

The problem some of the North Africans who made this argument have is that they were saying they're 'technically African' rather than black; they miss the better argument--saying that black is a better fit than white--because their parents are probably racist against African Americans/resist an African identity. I am saying that 'black African' is the best description of my ancestry out of the available boxes (white, Asian, etc) and then specifying that I'm Coptic Egyptian. I will also note how I've been defined as black by the British census my whole life.

Unless someone gives me a serious argument to the contrary, I'm going to go with LSAC's/the admissions counselor (again, a former Dean at T6) advice and check the AA/black box while specifying my heritage. Schools seem to buy my argument that it's the closest fit. I bet I'll get a big boost from at least a couple T-14 schools. Will check back here in several months to let you know how it goes.

rav17
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Re: Egyptian as black (African American)?

Postby rav17 » Thu Aug 04, 2016 7:14 pm

Take_WhatsYours wrote:
rav17 wrote:
Take_WhatsYours wrote:
rav17 wrote:
Take_WhatsYours wrote:
rav17 wrote:
Take_WhatsYours wrote:
Nowhere does it say "sub-Saharan." It says AA=black. They are going off of the census, which says black, not sub-Saharan.


Scroll down there's a box for North Africans. There is also a citation by LSAC, look it up.


I have already emailed LSAC, and they told me unequivocally that, even though I'm North African, I don't have to check white if I don't identify as white or look the part. (Again, Google Tariq Ramadan to see what I basically look like.) I'm still waiting on your citation that AA=sub-Saharan (as opposed to merely black) African. Nowhere do the LSAC boxes or federal definitions of race state this.


I never said that you had to check caucasian box that's a straw man argument, obviously you are obligated to select all the categories that apply to you, I am not disputing that. LSAC made a clear distinction between North Africans and Black/African Americans (those of subsaharan ancestry) otherwise they would not have included a box for the former category. Call or e-mail LSAC if you want an explicit definition i'm at work at the moment and don't currently have the time do go dig up the citation for you. You can't just go around masquerading as a subsaharan african when you are clearly north african.


Dude, LSAC told me I can check African American, as did a former Dean of Admissions at a T6, as have several (though not all) of the law schools I have contacted. AA is defined as black African--not sub-Saharan, but "black"--and includes many people (Sudanese, Somalis, etc) who descend from north of the Sahara. If you can provide me a citation from the government or LSAC saying that it means sub-Saharan, I will concede your point and not check the box. But you sound like you're just making an assumption without checking it.

There is ambiguity about the meaning of blackness. But some schools, as well as the UK government, apparently think I qualify. I think it's a much better fit than white.


We've discussed this ad nauseam you're not a URM. You've conceded that you don't have subsaharan ancestry, but you claim that you identify as african american because you just became an american citizen and are coptic Egyptian. By your logic someone who white guy from South African who emigrates to the U.S and becomes a U.S citizen could also identify as being African American and get the boost because even though they don't have subsaharan ancestry, they're African.


Dumb analogy, considering that Coptic Egyptians are racially "black" under a plausible definition of the term (e.g. the definition used by the UK government, which I've checked off my whole life). I have always been perceived as a PoC and have been called the n-word; Afrikaaners are never perceived as black.


Pointing out the only inconsistency in the analogy doesn't render the entire analogy "dumb". It's analogous in the regard that neither you nor Afrikaners have subsaharan ancestry but could nevertheless claim to be African American uponacquiring American citizenship on the basis that you hail from the African continent. You're presupposing without warrant that because you have been perceived as black that you would fall under LSAC's narrowly crafted definition of what black is. I know a few Australian aboriginals who perceive themselves as black but would not be considered black under LSAC's definition. One's racial identity can very fluid as it is in your case, but LSAC has tried to render it more static by ascribing definitions to the various racial categories. I mean it's unfortunate that you've had to deal with such abhorrent experiences and I feel for you. If you check the Black/African box definitely write an addendum or something to be on the safe side, because like I said misleading admissions committees whether intentional or not could have grave consequences for you. Also, be sure to tick the north african box because if you only select the black one but show up looking like Tariq Ramadan you're going to have problems lmao. I'd still be very surprised if you received the AA boost as African Americans but who knows, keep me updated.
Last edited by rav17 on Thu Aug 04, 2016 8:38 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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bretby
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Re: Egyptian as black (African American)?

Postby bretby » Thu Aug 04, 2016 7:53 pm

Take_WhatsYours wrote:
rav17 wrote:
Take_WhatsYours wrote:
rav17 wrote:
Take_WhatsYours wrote:
Nowhere does it say "sub-Saharan." It says AA=black. They are going off of the census, which says black, not sub-Saharan.


Scroll down there's a box for North Africans. There is also a citation by LSAC, look it up.


I have already emailed LSAC, and they told me unequivocally that, even though I'm North African, I don't have to check white if I don't identify as white or look the part. (Again, Google Tariq Ramadan to see what I basically look like.) I'm still waiting on your citation that AA=sub-Saharan (as opposed to merely black) African. Nowhere do the LSAC boxes or federal definitions of race state this.


I never said that you had to check caucasian box that's a straw man argument, obviously you are obligated to select all the categories that apply to you, I am not disputing that. LSAC made a clear distinction between North Africans and Black/African Americans (those of subsaharan ancestry) otherwise they would not have included a box for the former category. Call or e-mail LSAC if you want an explicit definition i'm at work at the moment and don't currently have the time do go dig up the citation for you. You can't just go around masquerading as a subsaharan african when you are clearly north african.


Dude, LSAC told me I can check African American, as did a former Dean of Admissions at a T6, as have several (though not all) of the law schools I have contacted. AA is defined as black African--not sub-Saharan, but "black"--and includes many people (Sudanese, Somalis, etc) who descend from north of the Sahara. If you can provide me a citation from the government or LSAC saying that it means sub-Saharan, I will concede your point and not check the box. But you sound like you're just making an assumption without checking it.

There is ambiguity about the meaning of blackness. But some schools, as well as the UK government, apparently think I qualify. I think it's a much better fit than white.


Since the role of race in society is as much about how society categorizes the individual as how the individual identifies her or himself, you might take that into account. The racial categories are not there to parse the distinctions between North Africans and sub-Saharan Africans, they are there as a proxy for a person's experience in American culture. Hope this helps.

rav17
Posts: 41
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Re: Egyptian as black (African American)?

Postby rav17 » Thu Aug 04, 2016 9:07 pm

Take_WhatsYours wrote:
rav17 wrote:
Take_WhatsYours wrote:
rav17 wrote:
Take_WhatsYours wrote:
rav17 wrote:
Take_WhatsYours wrote:
Nowhere does it say "sub-Saharan." It says AA=black. They are going off of the census, which says black, not sub-Saharan.


Scroll down there's a box for North Africans. There is also a citation by LSAC, look it up.


I have already emailed LSAC, and they told me unequivocally that, even though I'm North African, I don't have to check white if I don't identify as white or look the part. (Again, Google Tariq Ramadan to see what I basically look like.) I'm still waiting on your citation that AA=sub-Saharan (as opposed to merely black) African. Nowhere do the LSAC boxes or federal definitions of race state this.


I never said that you had to check caucasian box that's a straw man argument, obviously you are obligated to select all the categories that apply to you, I am not disputing that. LSAC made a clear distinction between North Africans and Black/African Americans (those of subsaharan ancestry) otherwise they would not have included a box for the former category. Call or e-mail LSAC if you want an explicit definition i'm at work at the moment and don't currently have the time do go dig up the citation for you. You can't just go around masquerading as a subsaharan african when you are clearly north african.


Dude, LSAC told me I can check African American, as did a former Dean of Admissions at a T6, as have several (though not all) of the law schools I have contacted. AA is defined as black African--not sub-Saharan, but "black"--and includes many people (Sudanese, Somalis, etc) who descend from north of the Sahara. If you can provide me a citation from the government or LSAC saying that it means sub-Saharan, I will concede your point and not check the box. But you sound like you're just making an assumption without checking it.

There is ambiguity about the meaning of blackness. But some schools, as well as the UK government, apparently think I qualify. I think it's a much better fit than white.


We've discussed this ad nauseam you're not a URM. You've conceded that you don't have subsaharan ancestry, but you claim that you identify as african american because you just became an american citizen and are coptic Egyptian. By your logic someone who white guy from South African who emigrates to the U.S and becomes a U.S citizen could also identify as being African American and get the boost because even though they don't have subsaharan ancestry, they're African.




Dumb analogy, considering that Coptic Egyptians are racially "black" under a plausible definition of the term (e.g. the definition used by the UK government, which I've checked off my whole life). I have always been perceived as a PoC and have been called the n-word; Afrikaaners are never perceived as black.

The problem some of the North Africans who made this argument have is that they were saying they're 'technically African' rather than black; they miss the better argument--saying that black is a better fit than white--because their parents are probably racist against African Americans/resist an African identity. I am saying that 'black African' is the best description of my ancestry out of the available boxes (white, Asian, etc) and then specifying that I'm Coptic Egyptian. I will also note how I've been defined as black by the British census my whole life.

Unless someone gives me a serious argument to the contrary, I'm going to go with LSAC's/the admissions counselor (again, a former Dean at T6) advice and check the AA/black box while specifying my heritage. Schools seem to buy my argument that it's the closest fit. I bet I'll get a big boost from at least a couple T-14 schools. Will check back here in several months to let you know how it goes.



Here is the LSAC citation I was talking about:

http://www.lsac.org/docs/default-source/publications-(lsac-resources)/january2009.pdf

Black/African-American : A person having origins in any of the BLACK racial groups of Africa.

This may include those who have origins from countries in the horn of Africa, e.g Ethiopians, Sudanese, Eritreans, as you pointed out earlier but not North Africans e.g Egyptians, Libyans, Moroccans.

White: A person having origins in any of the original peoples of Europe, the Middle East, or NORTH AFRICA

Egypt is in North Africa.

Sorry bro, you're not getting a boost. I've also just finished speaking with an acquaintance of mine who worked for 2 years as an Assistant Director of Undergraduate Admissions at Yale University where I am currently a student and he confirmed this, (the classification for urm's is the exact same for undergraduate admissions). Those definitions correspond directly with the U.S census so whether you've been classified as black in the U.K is irrelevant, however you can write about it in an addendum if you think it will make a difference.

Take_WhatsYours
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Re: Egyptian as black (African American)?

Postby Take_WhatsYours » Thu Aug 04, 2016 9:33 pm

rav17 wrote:Here is the LSAC citation I was talking about:

http://www.lsac.org/docs/default-source/publications-(lsac-resources)/january2009.pdf

Black/African-American : A person having origins in any of the BLACK racial groups of Africa.

In addition to subsaharan Africa, this may include those who have origins from countries in the horn of Africa, e.g Ethiopians, Sudanese, Eritreans, as you pointed out earlier but not North Africans e.g Egyptians, Libyans, Moroccans.

White: A person having origins in any of the original peoples of Europe, the Middle East, or NORTH AFRICA

Egypt is in North Africa.

Sorry bro, you're not getting a boost. I've also just finished speaking with an acquaintance of mine who worked for 2 years as an Assistant Director of Undergraduate Admissions at Yale University where I am currently an undergraduate and he confirmed this, (the classification for urm's is the exact same for undergraduate admissions). I give you his contact info and you can speak with him yourself if you like. Those definitions correspond directly with the U.S census so whether you've been classified as black in the U.K is irrelevant, however you can write about it in an addendum if you think it will make a difference.


So you've basically conceded my point, that AA means black and not sub-Saharan African, despite your earlier protests to the contrary. (By the way: North Africa as a geographic region always includes Sudan, so by your excessively legalistic logic, Sudanese would have to check white on the race box. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Africa. But if Sudanese--as "caucasian" "North Africans" according to the antiquated Census definition-- can check AA, that opens up the possibility that I can, despite having somewhat less melanin.)

I'm not white; no reasonable person could say I am white after looking at me. LSAC says I don't have to check white and can check black. There is no objective definition of "black African" and Coptic Egyptians could reasonably qualify> The reasonableness of this definition is shown by the British definition which includes them as black, and the fact that many Egyptians are perceived as black in the West.

Obviously, some adcoms will disagree with my argument that black/AA is the best fit. Some adcoms have, like your friend/Yale undergraduate assistant dean, said "no, you're white" in response to my queries. But most have said I can check the AA box. As did LSAC and a former DEAN OF ADMISSIONS at a T6. That settles this question.

I will check it with an addendum/essay clearly stating my heritage and let you know what happens. I expect to get a boost from multiple schools. But we will see.
Last edited by Take_WhatsYours on Thu Aug 04, 2016 9:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.

rav17
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Re: Egyptian as black (African American)?

Postby rav17 » Thu Aug 04, 2016 9:41 pm

Take_WhatsYours wrote:
Here is the LSAC citation I was talking about:

http://www.lsac.org/docs/default-source/publications-(lsac-resources)/january2009.pdf

Black/African-American : A person having origins in any of the BLACK racial groups of Africa.

In addition to subsaharan Africa, this may include those who have origins from countries in the horn of Africa, e.g Ethiopians, Sudanese, Eritreans, as you pointed out earlier but not North Africans e.g Egyptians, Libyans, Moroccans.

White: A person having origins in any of the original peoples of Europe, the Middle East, or NORTH AFRICA

Egypt is in North Africa.

Sorry bro, you're not getting a boost. I've also just finished speaking with an acquaintance of mine who worked for 2 years as an Assistant Director of Undergraduate Admissions at Yale University where I am currently an undergraduate and he confirmed this, (the classification for urm's is the exact same for undergraduate admissions). I give you his contact info and you can speak with him yourself if you like. Those definitions correspond directly with the U.S census so whether you've been classified as black in the U.K is irrelevant, however you can write about it in an addendum if you think it will make a difference.


So you've basically conceded my point, that AA means black and not sub-Saharan African, despite your earlier protests to the contrary. (By the way: North Africa as a region includes Sudan, and Sudanese/Somalis were traditionally categorized as "white"/Caucasian in the US, as a matter of law if not socially. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Africa. So if they--as "caucasian" "North Africans" according to the antiquated Census definition-- can check AA, that opens up the possibility that I can, despite having less melanin.)

I'm not white; no reasonable person could say I am white after looking at me. LSAC says I don't have to check white and can check black. There is no objective definition of "black" and Coptic Egyptians could reasonably qualify, as they do in Great Britain.

Obviously, some adcoms will disagree with my argument that black/AA is the best fit. Some adcoms have, like your friend/Yale undergraduate assistant dean, said "no, you're white" in response to my queries. But most have said I can check the AA box. As did LSAC and a former DEAN OF ADMISSIONS at a T6. That settles this question.

I will check it with an addendum/essay clearly stating my heritage and let you know what happens. I expect to get a boost from multiple schools. But we will see.


North Africa includes doesn't include Somalia or any of those countries on the horn of Africa. It includes: Algeria, Egypt, Libya, Morocco, Sudan, Tunisia, and Western Sahara. That's a fact, look it up. It follows that Somalians and others who hail from the horn of Africa wouldn't be considered North African/White, so I didn't concede anything, I was correct from the get go. Anyways, do what you want bro. You seem to be in a very grey area and you identify as black, so like I said you can tick the box, but i'd also advise you to tick the north african box to stay on the safe side. Good luck to you and I sincerely hope you have a successful cycle.

Take_WhatsYours
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Re: Egyptian as black (African American)?

Postby Take_WhatsYours » Thu Aug 04, 2016 9:46 pm

rav17 wrote:
Take_WhatsYours wrote:
Here is the LSAC citation I was talking about:

http://www.lsac.org/docs/default-source/publications-(lsac-resources)/january2009.pdf

Black/African-American : A person having origins in any of the BLACK racial groups of Africa.

In addition to subsaharan Africa, this may include those who have origins from countries in the horn of Africa, e.g Ethiopians, Sudanese, Eritreans, as you pointed out earlier but not North Africans e.g Egyptians, Libyans, Moroccans.

White: A person having origins in any of the original peoples of Europe, the Middle East, or NORTH AFRICA

Egypt is in North Africa.

Sorry bro, you're not getting a boost. I've also just finished speaking with an acquaintance of mine who worked for 2 years as an Assistant Director of Undergraduate Admissions at Yale University where I am currently an undergraduate and he confirmed this, (the classification for urm's is the exact same for undergraduate admissions). I give you his contact info and you can speak with him yourself if you like. Those definitions correspond directly with the U.S census so whether you've been classified as black in the U.K is irrelevant, however you can write about it in an addendum if you think it will make a difference.


So you've basically conceded my point, that AA means black and not sub-Saharan African, despite your earlier protests to the contrary. (By the way: North Africa as a region includes Sudan, and Sudanese/Somalis were traditionally categorized as "white"/Caucasian in the US, as a matter of law if not socially. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Africa. So if they--as "caucasian" "North Africans" according to the antiquated Census definition-- can check AA, that opens up the possibility that I can, despite having less melanin.)

I'm not white; no reasonable person could say I am white after looking at me. LSAC says I don't have to check white and can check black. There is no objective definition of "black" and Coptic Egyptians could reasonably qualify, as they do in Great Britain.

Obviously, some adcoms will disagree with my argument that black/AA is the best fit. Some adcoms have, like your friend/Yale undergraduate assistant dean, said "no, you're white" in response to my queries. But most have said I can check the AA box. As did LSAC and a former DEAN OF ADMISSIONS at a T6. That settles this question.

I will check it with an addendum/essay clearly stating my heritage and let you know what happens. I expect to get a boost from multiple schools. But we will see.


North Africa includes doesn't include Sudan or Somalia or any of those countries on the horn of Africa. It includes: Algeria, Egypt, Libya, Morocco, Sudan, Tunisia, and Western Sahara. That's a fact, look it up. It follows that Somalians and others who hail from the horn of Africa wouldn't be considered North African/White, so I didn't concede anything, I was correct from the get go. Anyways, do what you want bro. You seem to be in a very grey area and you identify as black, so like I said you can tick the box, but i'd also advise you to tick the north african box to stay on the safe side. Good luck to you and I sincerely hope you have a successful cycle.


Again, by your logic, Sudanese would have to check white, since Sudan is in North Africa. See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Africa. By the way: Most Sudanese would not identify as black or African American outside of the context of affirmative action. And, as I indicated, they--along with Somalis, Eriterians, etc--were traditionally labeled "Caucasian" in the US as a matter of law. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caucasian_race.

If it's a "grey area," why shouldn't I try to exploit it, provided that I'm upfront about my heritage? Even you seem to think that there's a possibility that I get a boost, though you think it's much less likely than I do. The evidence indicates that most schools will defer to my self-identification and accept my argument, while a minority will reject it. But all I need is one or two schools to buy it and my career trajectory is transformed.

rav17
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Re: Egyptian as black (African American)?

Postby rav17 » Thu Aug 04, 2016 9:59 pm

Take_WhatsYours wrote:
rav17 wrote:
Take_WhatsYours wrote:
Here is the LSAC citation I was talking about:

http://www.lsac.org/docs/default-source/publications-(lsac-resources)/january2009.pdf

Black/African-American : A person having origins in any of the BLACK racial groups of Africa.

In addition to subsaharan Africa, this may include those who have origins from countries in the horn of Africa, e.g Ethiopians, Sudanese, Eritreans, as you pointed out earlier but not North Africans e.g Egyptians, Libyans, Moroccans.

White: A person having origins in any of the original peoples of Europe, the Middle East, or NORTH AFRICA

Egypt is in North Africa.

Sorry bro, you're not getting a boost. I've also just finished speaking with an acquaintance of mine who worked for 2 years as an Assistant Director of Undergraduate Admissions at Yale University where I am currently an undergraduate and he confirmed this, (the classification for urm's is the exact same for undergraduate admissions). I give you his contact info and you can speak with him yourself if you like. Those definitions correspond directly with the U.S census so whether you've been classified as black in the U.K is irrelevant, however you can write about it in an addendum if you think it will make a difference.


So you've basically conceded my point, that AA means black and not sub-Saharan African, despite your earlier protests to the contrary. (By the way: North Africa as a region includes Sudan, and Sudanese/Somalis were traditionally categorized as "white"/Caucasian in the US, as a matter of law if not socially. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Africa. So if they--as "caucasian" "North Africans" according to the antiquated Census definition-- can check AA, that opens up the possibility that I can, despite having less melanin.)

I'm not white; no reasonable person could say I am white after looking at me. LSAC says I don't have to check white and can check black. There is no objective definition of "black" and Coptic Egyptians could reasonably qualify, as they do in Great Britain.

Obviously, some adcoms will disagree with my argument that black/AA is the best fit. Some adcoms have, like your friend/Yale undergraduate assistant dean, said "no, you're white" in response to my queries. But most have said I can check the AA box. As did LSAC and a former DEAN OF ADMISSIONS at a T6. That settles this question.

I will check it with an addendum/essay clearly stating my heritage and let you know what happens. I expect to get a boost from multiple schools. But we will see.


North Africa includes doesn't include Sudan or Somalia or any of those countries on the horn of Africa. It includes: Algeria, Egypt, Libya, Morocco, Sudan, Tunisia, and Western Sahara. That's a fact, look it up. It follows that Somalians and others who hail from the horn of Africa wouldn't be considered North African/White, so I didn't concede anything, I was correct from the get go. Anyways, do what you want bro. You seem to be in a very grey area and you identify as black, so like I said you can tick the box, but i'd also advise you to tick the north african box to stay on the safe side. Good luck to you and I sincerely hope you have a successful cycle.


Again, by your logic, Sudanese would have to check white, since Sudan is in North Africa. See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Africa. By the way: Most Sudanese would not identify as black or African American outside of the context of affirmative action. And, as I indicated, they--along with Somalis, Eriterians, etc--were traditionally labeled "Caucasian" in the US as a matter of law. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caucasian_race.

If it's a "grey area," why shouldn't I try to exploit it, provided that I'm upfront about my heritage? Even you seem to think that there's a possibility that I get a boost, though you think it's much less likely than I do. All I need is one or two schools to buy it and my career trajectory is transformed.


The first part of your post is addressing a typo that I have since corrected. I know that Sudan is part of North Africa and I mentioned it in my previous post. If you're upfront about your heritage by all means exploit it. It would only be a problem if you were say a full blooded Algerian that looked like Karim Benzema and you only ticked the Black/African-American box without being upfront about your heritage therefore deceptively passing yourself off as an Black/African American which I realize is not what you were doing. Traditionally, North Africans have not qualified for the boost because they are classified as white. Use the search function, there are many North Africans on this forum that have posed the same question you have that have reported their results. Anyways, tick the boxes, write your addendum, some schools may buy it and give you the boost and some may not, but who cares just do it and see what happens. Good luck.

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jnwa
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Re: Egyptian as black (African American)?

Postby jnwa » Thu Aug 04, 2016 10:06 pm

The URM boost is literally a box you check. If you identify as black, check the black box. They're not going to ancestry.com you.

jelufowoju
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Re: Egyptian as black (African American)?

Postby jelufowoju » Fri Aug 05, 2016 8:41 pm

youngwarrior wrote:
Take_WhatsYours wrote:
rav17 wrote:North africans don't get any boost, only those that have subsaharan african ancestry.

By that logic, Somalis wouldn't be eligible for the boost, which they clearly are. AA is defined as "black African," not sub-Saharan African. "Black" has a vague meaning that is, nonetheless, much closer to how I am perceived than "white."


I know a Black Canadian who is of Somalian ancestry, he went to my alma mater and just graduated from Yale Law School. He didn't get any boost, but his stats were extremely competitive, he was even a k-jd.


If you're talking about who I think you are, I know him personally, (his initials are A.A), then he's black and would have qualified for the boost unless he opted to only identify himself as a North African.
Last edited by jelufowoju on Fri Aug 05, 2016 8:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Good Guy Gaud
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Re: Egyptian as black (African American)?

Postby Good Guy Gaud » Fri Aug 05, 2016 8:43 pm

jnwa wrote:The URM boost is literally a box you check. If you identify as black, check the black box. They're not going to ancestry.com you.


It really is just this simple.

izha
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Re: Egyptian as black (African American)?

Postby izha » Fri Aug 05, 2016 8:50 pm

jnwa wrote:The URM boost is literally a box you check. If you identify as black, check the black box. They're not going to ancestry.com you.

I have a feeling that OP doesn't, but still would like to have a boost.

Take_WhatsYours
Posts: 16
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Re: Egyptian as black (African American)?

Postby Take_WhatsYours » Sat Aug 06, 2016 12:59 pm

izha wrote:
jnwa wrote:The URM boost is literally a box you check. If you identify as black, check the black box. They're not going to ancestry.com you.

I have a feeling that OP doesn't, but still would like to have a boost.


This is a fair and obvious criticism. To be honest, if I were on the streets and asked for my race I wouldn't say black; I would definitely say I'm a racial minority but I'd say I'm Egyptian. I have however identified as black in the past (on the UK Census) and think it is a reasonable self-description given how I am perceived. I can't say the same about white, the only other feasible alternative. And there is no "other" option.

So it's the box closest to my self-identification, although it doesn't perfectly capture it. I will clarify my heritage further on the diversity statement and expect to get a boost.

I should also note that many other people--e.g. East Indians--check boxes on applications that they wouldn't use to describe their race IRL. Moreover, most American immigrants from sub-Saharan Africa do not identify as black/AA--but rather, as Nigerian, etc--until they apply to law school. See http://lib.dr.iastate.edu/cgi/viewconte ... c_las_pubs

I think by checking black I'd be making an objectively reasonable claim that, subjectively, is definitely the best fit of the races listed. The schools would be left to determine the objective reasonableness, because I'm going to disclose my heritage to them.

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jnwa
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Re: Egyptian as black (African American)?

Postby jnwa » Sat Aug 06, 2016 1:06 pm

Take_WhatsYours wrote:
izha wrote:
jnwa wrote:The URM boost is literally a box you check. If you identify as black, check the black box. They're not going to ancestry.com you.

I have a feeling that OP doesn't, but still would like to have a boost.


This is a fair and obvious criticism. To be honest, if I were on the streets and asked for my race I wouldn't say black; I would definitely say I'm a racial minority but I'd say I'm Egyptian. I have however identified as black in the past (on the UK Census) and think it is a reasonable self-description given how I am perceived. I can't say the same about white, the only other feasible alternative. And there is no "other" option.

So it's the box closest to my self-identification, although it doesn't perfectly capture it. I will clarify my heritage further on the diversity statement and expect to get a boost.

I should also note that many other people--e.g. East Indians--check boxes on applications that they wouldn't use to describe their race IRL. Moreover, most American immigrants from sub-Saharan Africa do not identify as black/AA--but rather, as Nigerian, etc--until they apply to law school. See http://lib.dr.iastate.edu/cgi/viewconte ... c_las_pubs

I think by checking black I'd be making an objectively reasonable claim that, subjectively, is definitely the best fit of the races listed. The schools would be left to determine the objective reasonableness, because I'm going to disclose my heritage to them.


I identify as Nigerian and Canadian and Black. The box says black/African american, i am the former but not the latter. If you wouldnt feel comfortable identifying yourself as black then dont. You can be Egyptian and black but you could also be Egyptian and Arab which is what it seems like. Like i said before, you have enough of a claim to put down black regardless but if youre doing it for the boost its cunty.




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