Am I a URM???/Is___ race/circumstance considered URM??

(BLS, URM status, non-traditional, GLBT)
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bk1
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Re: Am I a URM???/Is___ race/circumstance considered URM??

Postby bk1 » Mon Feb 07, 2011 3:19 pm

chalhou1 wrote:just curious what are the reasons that arabs are not considered URM?


I believe it is because they are not underrepresented. May also have to do with the fact that many of them are considered racially white.

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bk1
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Re: Am I a URM???/Is___ race/circumstance considered URM??

Postby bk1 » Mon Feb 07, 2011 3:22 pm

r6_philly wrote:Actually some applications now ask to sub divide "black". I saw "Caribbean" as one of the choices on several apps (as well as African, African-American, Hispanic, other). I don't know if all blacks are treated as URM or just the AA blacks. I also don't know what's the difference between African black and AA black, unless first-generation (immigrant) Africans would identify as African blacks while their children identify as AA blacks.


This is a good point. I didn't actually go back in to the applications, merely just looked at the LSAC questionnaire (which doesn't have Caribbean and has one box for "Black or African American").

If the colleges could actually tell apart AA's from non-American blacks, I'm not sure how they would handle it. I think that they would tend towards seeing them as URM, but I could see it going either way.

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AboveTheLawSchool
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Re: Am I a URM???/Is___ race/circumstance considered URM??

Postby AboveTheLawSchool » Sun Feb 13, 2011 6:25 pm

My girlfriend is 1/8th Iroquois. She says she has some kind of ID # or something, is this all LS care about when it comes to URM status?

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legalmo
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Re: Am I a URM???/Is___ race/circumstance considered URM??

Postby legalmo » Sun Feb 13, 2011 6:45 pm

I tried reading through the thread before posting, but a lot of the cases are specific and might not exactly apply to me. I'm 100% Dominican, both parents immigrated to the US (one at a young age, has been a citizen all her life and the other is still here last I heard). I was born here, too. I get confused because according to the public school system here (at least in HS, probably the same in UG) I was considered "White Hispanic" whereas some of my other friends who were Dominican or Cuban were "Black Hispanic".

I'll admit on my UG app I checked White and Caribbean (or maybe Black, I forget) thinking that it would be more accurate. Maybe thats why I ended up at a safety, not sure if it came off as disingenuous.

I just feel Dominican--not White, Black, or Asian. My question is would I forfeit any boost by simply being Hispanic (leaving race blank) and would it be entirely deceitful to mark Caribbean (or maybe Black/Caribbean if it seems like a general option) given that it is highly likely I'm at least partially Haitian somewhere? I hate to think I missed out on a possible advantage, especially considering the stats I see posted on forums.

P.S. Feel free to troll me for not knowing how to search or something. I'm a nervous 0L, I'll take it.

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bk1
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Re: Am I a URM???/Is___ race/circumstance considered URM??

Postby bk1 » Mon Feb 14, 2011 1:34 am

AboveTheLawSchool wrote:My girlfriend is 1/8th Iroquois. She says she has some kind of ID # or something, is this all LS care about when it comes to URM status?


Law schools will not care about whether she is 1/8 or 7/8 (because they can't tell when you check "Native American" and "white," it's not like you list the percentages). For NA's, some schools care about having a tribal ID so if she has one she will count.

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kapachino
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Re: Am I a URM???/Is___ race/circumstance considered URM??

Postby kapachino » Mon Feb 14, 2011 2:51 pm

legalmo wrote:I tried reading through the thread before posting, but a lot of the cases are specific and might not exactly apply to me. I'm 100% Dominican, both parents immigrated to the US (one at a young age, has been a citizen all her life and the other is still here last I heard). I was born here, too. I get confused because according to the public school system here (at least in HS, probably the same in UG) I was considered "White Hispanic" whereas some of my other friends who were Dominican or Cuban were "Black Hispanic".

I'll admit on my UG app I checked White and Caribbean (or maybe Black, I forget) thinking that it would be more accurate. Maybe thats why I ended up at a safety, not sure if it came off as disingenuous.

I just feel Dominican--not White, Black, or Asian. My question is would I forfeit any boost by simply being Hispanic (leaving race blank) and would it be entirely deceitful to mark Caribbean (or maybe Black/Caribbean if it seems like a general option) given that it is highly likely I'm at least partially Haitian somewhere? I hate to think I missed out on a possible advantage, especially considering the stats I see posted on forums.

P.S. Feel free to troll me for not knowing how to search or something. I'm a nervous 0L, I'll take it.


Nationality/ethnicity are different from race. I realize that you don't see yourself as black or white, but this is a race-centric country, and for the purposes of applying to law schools, you need to disclose your race if you want a URM boost. If you're black Dominican, you can put "Black" and "Other Hispanic/Latino" on your app. They don't even have "Caribbean" as an option, because "Black" is a catch-all. If you're not black Dominican, just put "Other Hispanic/Latino", and know that you will more than likely not receive a boost.

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Re: Am I a URM???/Is___ race/circumstance considered URM??

Postby kapachino » Mon Feb 14, 2011 2:55 pm

bk1 wrote:
AboveTheLawSchool wrote:My girlfriend is 1/8th Iroquois. She says she has some kind of ID # or something, is this all LS care about when it comes to URM status?


Law schools will not care about whether she is 1/8 or 7/8 (because they can't tell when you check "Native American" and "white," it's not like you list the percentages). For NA's, some schools care about having a tribal ID so if she has one she will count.



Which schools ask for ID? I don't have BIA registration, but my grandfather was half Native, and I have relatives living on a reservation and/or have registration. Should I go ahead and put it on my apps?

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Re: Am I a URM???/Is___ race/circumstance considered URM??

Postby bk1 » Mon Feb 14, 2011 3:06 pm

kapachino wrote:Nationality/ethnicity are different from race. I realize that you don't see yourself as black or white, but this is a race-centric country, and for the purposes of applying to law schools, you need to disclose your race if you want a URM boost. If you're black Dominican, you can put "Black" and "Other Hispanic/Latino" on your app. They don't even have "Caribbean" as an option, because "Black" is a catch-all. If you're not black Dominican, just put "Other Hispanic/Latino", and know that you will more than likely not receive a boost.


I just wanted to add that it is just beginning to be accepted that ethnicity/race are social constructs rather than precise labels of reality. However, race/ethnicity questionnaires, while having come a long way, still have some rigid classifications.

Because of this, Hispanic was and often still is considered an ethnicity and thus someone who is Hispanic must also be a race, either white/black/asian. This has led many Hispanics to checkmark "other" for the race option. While I know that each law school app differs from LSAC, I'll use LSAC as the illustrative example.

@legalmo: (using the LSAC race/ethnicity questionnaire which can be reported to law schools) Hispanic is no longer separated from the other races, so if you wish to just check Hispanic then you can check just "Other Hispanic/Latino," since there is no box for Caribbean. If you do this, you will not get a URM boost. You may get a slight boost for Hispanic but you would be unlikely to get something as large as the boost afforded to the normal URM groups. If you want to be completely technical and honest, then you need to assess whether you are white or black or both and mark that in addition to marking Other Hispanic. If you actually are black then it would not be deceitful to mark that and you would get a boost if you marked black.

That being said, fill out how you feel like filling out (assuming you aren't lying) and if you want to further explain yourself to adcomms I would advise you to write a diversity statement that weaves in an explication of your ethnic/racial background.

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bk1
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Re: Am I a URM???/Is___ race/circumstance considered URM??

Postby bk1 » Mon Feb 14, 2011 3:10 pm

kapachino wrote:Which schools ask for ID? I don't have BIA registration, but my grandfather was half Native, and I have relatives living on a reservation and/or have registration. Should I go ahead and put it on my apps?


I don't know which ones do, you'll have to refer to individual apps to see. I know that some do and some do not. I don't know how each school handles the instances for people who have numbers versus not having one either, I would shoot Nightrunner a pm because he is far more knowledgeable on NA stuff than I am.

If you are 1/4 NA then you would not be lying by marking NA. If you don't have ID then it is still okay to mark NA as many NA's don't have ID numbers, though iirc some schools will not do a URM boost for NA's who do not have a number (I think it is primarily because a lot of very white people have a small portion of NA blood, e.g. my greatgreatgreatgreat grandmother was a Cherokee princess type stuff, and try to use that to help their admissions). As I said, pm Nightrunner as he knows way more than I do.

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kapachino
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Re: Am I a URM???/Is___ race/circumstance considered URM??

Postby kapachino » Mon Feb 14, 2011 3:38 pm

Thanks, BK.

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bk1
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Re: Am I a URM???/Is___ race/circumstance considered URM??

Postby bk1 » Mon Feb 14, 2011 5:02 pm

kapachino wrote:Thanks, BK.


No problem.

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Re: Am I a URM???/Is___ race/circumstance considered URM??

Postby serdog » Mon Feb 14, 2011 7:19 pm

bk1 wrote:
If you are 1/4 NA then you would not be lying by marking NA. If you don't have ID then it is still okay to mark NA as many NA's don't have ID numbers, though iirc some schools will not do a URM boost for NA's who do not have a number (I think it is primarily because a lot of very white people have a small portion of NA blood, e.g. my greatgreatgreatgreat grandmother was a Cherokee princess type stuff, and try to use that to help their admissions). As I said, pm Nightrunner as he knows way more than I do.

My understanding is its very depended on the School but yes school want either a good DS or a enrollment number because there are a lot of fakes out there(either honest because of Family legend or try to get a boast) also their are a lot of non culturally connected people who never really understood,being NA, beyond having a card. Bottom line NA boast is the lest clear of all other then maybe other Hispanic

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Re: Am I a URM???/Is___ race/circumstance considered URM??

Postby legalmo » Mon Feb 14, 2011 7:20 pm

kapachino wrote:
legalmo wrote:I tried reading through the thread before posting, but a lot of the cases are specific and might not exactly apply to me. I'm 100% Dominican, both parents immigrated to the US (one at a young age, has been a citizen all her life and the other is still here last I heard). I was born here, too. I get confused because according to the public school system here (at least in HS, probably the same in UG) I was considered "White Hispanic" whereas some of my other friends who were Dominican or Cuban were "Black Hispanic".

I'll admit on my UG app I checked White and Caribbean (or maybe Black, I forget) thinking that it would be more accurate. Maybe thats why I ended up at a safety, not sure if it came off as disingenuous.

I just feel Dominican--not White, Black, or Asian. My question is would I forfeit any boost by simply being Hispanic (leaving race blank) and would it be entirely deceitful to mark Caribbean (or maybe Black/Caribbean if it seems like a general option) given that it is highly likely I'm at least partially Haitian somewhere? I hate to think I missed out on a possible advantage, especially considering the stats I see posted on forums.

P.S. Feel free to troll me for not knowing how to search or something. I'm a nervous 0L, I'll take it.


Nationality/ethnicity are different from race. I realize that you don't see yourself as black or white, but this is a race-centric country, and for the purposes of applying to law schools, you need to disclose your race if you want a URM boost. If you're black Dominican, you can put "Black" and "Other Hispanic/Latino" on your app. They don't even have "Caribbean" as an option, because "Black" is a catch-all. If you're not black Dominican, just put "Other Hispanic/Latino", and know that you will more than likely not receive a boost.


Well, I'm not sure if I can distinguish "white dominican" from "black dominican" honestly (unless you mean physical color). Honestly, and I hate to be having an epiphany on a public forum, I have never felt white or asian. I do feel a closeness to the black community considering where I grew up, but admittedly I don't give my own composition much thought. Most people assume I'm Jewish, but this is more about what the individual relates to not so much what other people impose upon them right?

Would it be ingenuous to classify myself as black, then? I don't want to do anything wrong or get disbarred (if I even pass character and fitness).

Also, how much of a boost would a "black dominican" GLBT from a lower middle class background receive? Just curious, I know its kind of off-topic.

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Re: Am I a URM???/Is___ race/circumstance considered URM??

Postby bk1 » Mon Feb 14, 2011 8:01 pm

legalmo wrote:Well, I'm not sure if I can distinguish "white dominican" from "black dominican" honestly (unless you mean physical color). Honestly, and I hate to be having an epiphany on a public forum, I have never felt white or asian. I do feel a closeness to the black community considering where I grew up, but admittedly I don't give my own composition much thought. Most people assume I'm Jewish, but this is more about what the individual relates to not so much what other people impose upon them right?

Would it be ingenuous to classify myself as black, then? I don't want to do anything wrong or get disbarred (if I even pass character and fitness).

Also, how much of a boost would a "black dominican" GLBT from a lower middle class background receive? Just curious, I know its kind of off-topic.


Being LGBT and being poor won't give you a boost but they both make great fodder for a DS. Being black is usually something like a 10 point boost on your LSAT, but it really is hard to quantify. The best thing to do is look at other URM's (specifically African Americans) to see how they do relative to their numbers.

It's not about feeling a closeness to the community. A lot of kids feel a part of a community to which they are not genetically tied to. It also doesn't matter what other people assume you to be (I've met several people who thought I was a different ancestry than I actually am). To be as simplistic about it as possible, basically black means one's ancestors are from Africa whereas white means ones ancestors are from Europe and/or the Middle East. If you don't actually have ancestors that go back to Africa then I would say that it would be disingenuous to mark black.

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Re: Am I a URM???/Is___ race/circumstance considered URM??

Postby legalmo » Mon Feb 14, 2011 8:18 pm

bk1 wrote:
legalmo wrote:Well, I'm not sure if I can distinguish "white dominican" from "black dominican" honestly (unless you mean physical color). Honestly, and I hate to be having an epiphany on a public forum, I have never felt white or asian. I do feel a closeness to the black community considering where I grew up, but admittedly I don't give my own composition much thought. Most people assume I'm Jewish, but this is more about what the individual relates to not so much what other people impose upon them right?

Would it be ingenuous to classify myself as black, then? I don't want to do anything wrong or get disbarred (if I even pass character and fitness).

Also, how much of a boost would a "black dominican" GLBT from a lower middle class background receive? Just curious, I know its kind of off-topic.


Being LGBT and being poor won't give you a boost but they both make great fodder for a DS. Being black is usually something like a 10 point boost on your LSAT, but it really is hard to quantify. The best thing to do is look at other URM's (specifically African Americans) to see how they do relative to their numbers.

It's not about feeling a closeness to the community. A lot of kids feel a part of a community to which they are not genetically tied to. It also doesn't matter what other people assume you to be (I've met several people who thought I was a different ancestry than I actually am). To be as simplistic about it as possible, basically black means one's ancestors are from Africa whereas white means ones ancestors are from Europe and/or the Middle East. If you don't actually have ancestors that go back to Africa then I would say that it would be disingenuous to mark black.


I can't attest to it personally, but a relative once told me that they traced our ancestry (with one of those paid services I think, and only on one side at least) to Spain. So, I guess it would be deceitful. Guess I should start studying now to offset any boost I thought I was getting! :P

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bk1
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Re: Am I a URM???/Is___ race/circumstance considered URM??

Postby bk1 » Tue Feb 15, 2011 1:13 pm

legalmo wrote:I can't attest to it personally, but a relative once told me that they traced our ancestry (with one of those paid services I think, and only on one side at least) to Spain. So, I guess it would be deceitful. Guess I should start studying now to offset any boost I thought I was getting! :P


Well you could have ancestry going back to both Spain and Africa. :P But as I said, if you don't have any African ancestry then checking black would indeed be disingenuous.

Good luck on the LSAT!

privatemf
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Re: Am I a URM???/Is___ race/circumstance considered URM??

Postby privatemf » Thu Feb 24, 2011 9:36 am

NO! Unless you are in an informal relationship with them.
kn6542 wrote:
silver11 wrote:In this case it is determined by blood, of course you could include a diversity statement speaking about you being raised in a Puerto Rican atmosphere. If a caucasian male grew up in the inner city with out a father and was best friends with only African-Americans and related better to their culture, would you consider this person an African-American? That should answer your question.

Why do people always say "African-American"? A lot of black people don't identify with African culture, and many aren't even of African genetic origin.
Can't you just say BLACK? WTF?

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Re: Am I a URM???/Is___ race/circumstance considered URM??

Postby bk1 » Thu Feb 24, 2011 1:51 pm

privatemf wrote:NO! Unless you are in an informal relationship with them.


You really felt the need to dredge this up from over 5 pages ago?

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Re: Am I a URM???/Is___ race/circumstance considered URM??

Postby BeenDidThat » Thu Feb 24, 2011 2:02 pm

bk1 wrote:
legalmo wrote:Well, I'm not sure if I can distinguish "white dominican" from "black dominican" honestly (unless you mean physical color). Honestly, and I hate to be having an epiphany on a public forum, I have never felt white or asian. I do feel a closeness to the black community considering where I grew up, but admittedly I don't give my own composition much thought. Most people assume I'm Jewish, but this is more about what the individual relates to not so much what other people impose upon them right?

Would it be ingenuous to classify myself as black, then? I don't want to do anything wrong or get disbarred (if I even pass character and fitness).

Also, how much of a boost would a "black dominican" GLBT from a lower middle class background receive? Just curious, I know its kind of off-topic.


Being LGBT and being poor won't give you a boost but they both make great fodder for a DS. Being black is usually something like a 10 point boost on your LSAT, but it really is hard to quantify. The best thing to do is look at other URM's (specifically African Americans) to see how they do relative to their numbers.

It's not about feeling a closeness to the community. A lot of kids feel a part of a community to which they are not genetically tied to. It also doesn't matter what other people assume you to be (I've met several people who thought I was a different ancestry than I actually am). To be as simplistic about it as possible, basically black means one's ancestors are from Africa whereas white means ones ancestors are from Europe and/or the Middle East. If you don't actually have ancestors that go back to Africa then I would say that it would be disingenuous to mark black.


This.

With respect to the American race construct, if you're part black, you're black. I need not get into the history of the construct.

For the Dominican person: for the purposes of American racial categorization, the question you need to answer for the question to be more properly decided is: do you have (generally sub-saharan) African ancestors?

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kapachino
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Re: Am I a URM???/Is___ race/circumstance considered URM??

Postby kapachino » Thu Feb 24, 2011 6:30 pm

This thread needs to be locked.

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Flett
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Re: Am I a URM???/Is___ race/circumstance considered URM??

Postby Flett » Fri Feb 25, 2011 9:57 pm

kapachino wrote:This thread needs to be locked.


Why? So every single person who asked a question in here can make a separate thread?

It's nice to have answers of similar nature all in one place. I'd say this thread has a sticky for a reason.

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alexonfyre
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Re: Am I a URM???/Is___ race/circumstance considered URM??

Postby alexonfyre » Mon Mar 07, 2011 7:43 pm

So, I haven't seen if this has been asked before, and I apologize if it has, but if I am 1/4 Mexican by blood, and the majority of the rest of my family claims Mexican-American status, but I haven't up to this point in my schooling, is there a problem with me claiming for law school. I have been told that it could cause problems with the Ethics portion of the bar later on, but I am curious if anyone has any actual experience or specific knowledge on this issue.

EDIT: To be more specific, I have heard a lot of people say "Check what you feel" yada yada, but the fact is, I usually don't check mexican because I don't want to take an advantaged position from someone who needs it more, but if law schools are offering this because they want a more diverse student body and the law wants to be proportionally represented, then I don't see the issue. My main question is, could anything actually negative happen, or are you guys just saying not to do it from a moral standpoint?

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bk1
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Re: Am I a URM???/Is___ race/circumstance considered URM??

Postby bk1 » Mon Mar 07, 2011 8:32 pm

alexonfyre wrote:So, I haven't seen if this has been asked before, and I apologize if it has, but if I am 1/4 Mexican by blood, and the majority of the rest of my family claims Mexican-American status, but I haven't up to this point in my schooling, is there a problem with me claiming for law school. I have been told that it could cause problems with the Ethics portion of the bar later on, but I am curious if anyone has any actual experience or specific knowledge on this issue.

EDIT: To be more specific, I have heard a lot of people say "Check what you feel" yada yada, but the fact is, I usually don't check mexican because I don't want to take an advantaged position from someone who needs it more, but if law schools are offering this because they want a more diverse student body and the law wants to be proportionally represented, then I don't see the issue. My main question is, could anything actually negative happen, or are you guys just saying not to do it from a moral standpoint?


You're MA, check MA. If you have a problem with it then don't. The schools are the one's choosing to give you a boost, not you choosing to give yourself a boost. It would only be a problem if you weren't actually MA.

Some people have a problem with it, but you aren't doing anything technically wrong so you are fine.

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Drake014
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Re: Am I a URM???/Is___ race/circumstance considered URM??

Postby Drake014 » Mon Mar 07, 2011 8:41 pm

BeenDidThat wrote:
bk1 wrote:
legalmo wrote:Well, I'm not sure if I can distinguish "white dominican" from "black dominican" honestly (unless you mean physical color). Honestly, and I hate to be having an epiphany on a public forum, I have never felt white or asian. I do feel a closeness to the black community considering where I grew up, but admittedly I don't give my own composition much thought. Most people assume I'm Jewish, but this is more about what the individual relates to not so much what other people impose upon them right?

Would it be ingenuous to classify myself as black, then? I don't want to do anything wrong or get disbarred (if I even pass character and fitness).

Also, how much of a boost would a "black dominican" GLBT from a lower middle class background receive? Just curious, I know its kind of off-topic.


Being LGBT and being poor won't give you a boost but they both make great fodder for a DS. Being black is usually something like a 10 point boost on your LSAT, but it really is hard to quantify. The best thing to do is look at other URM's (specifically African Americans) to see how they do relative to their numbers.

It's not about feeling a closeness to the community. A lot of kids feel a part of a community to which they are not genetically tied to. It also doesn't matter what other people assume you to be (I've met several people who thought I was a different ancestry than I actually am). To be as simplistic about it as possible, basically black means one's ancestors are from Africa whereas white means ones ancestors are from Europe and/or the Middle East. If you don't actually have ancestors that go back to Africa then I would say that it would be disingenuous to mark black.


This.

With respect to the American race construct, if you're part black, you're black. I need not get into the history of the construct.

For the Dominican person: for the purposes of American racial categorization, the question you need to answer for the question to be more properly decided is: do you have (generally sub-saharan) African ancestors?


Nah. You are black if one of the following:
1. You look black and have black ancestors
2. You look non-white (or at least like you have something in you that's non-white) and identify with your black ancestors/heritage

You are not black if:
1. You look non-black, don't identify as black, and recently discovered or heard at some point that your great great grandfather was from sub saharan Africa

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alexonfyre
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Re: Am I a URM???/Is___ race/circumstance considered URM??

Postby alexonfyre » Mon Mar 07, 2011 9:31 pm

bk1 wrote:
alexonfyre wrote:So, I haven't seen if this has been asked before, and I apologize if it has, but if I am 1/4 Mexican by blood, and the majority of the rest of my family claims Mexican-American status, but I haven't up to this point in my schooling, is there a problem with me claiming for law school. I have been told that it could cause problems with the Ethics portion of the bar later on, but I am curious if anyone has any actual experience or specific knowledge on this issue.

EDIT: To be more specific, I have heard a lot of people say "Check what you feel" yada yada, but the fact is, I usually don't check mexican because I don't want to take an advantaged position from someone who needs it more, but if law schools are offering this because they want a more diverse student body and the law wants to be proportionally represented, then I don't see the issue. My main question is, could anything actually negative happen, or are you guys just saying not to do it from a moral standpoint?


You're MA, check MA. If you have a problem with it then don't. The schools are the one's choosing to give you a boost, not you choosing to give yourself a boost. It would only be a problem if you weren't actually MA.

Some people have a problem with it, but you aren't doing anything technically wrong so you are fine.


Honestly, it is really just the privileged background I was worried about, and that is why I didn't ever check it before (plus an elementary school teacher told me that I "just look white, so just check white" during a state examination.) Every family gathering I have been to has had a mariachi, and 20 family members fighting over tortillas, so it isn't like we are totally white-washed.




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