Asian female--should I not disclose my ethnicity?

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jennie

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Asian female--should I not disclose my ethnicity?

Postby jennie » Mon Oct 01, 2018 10:07 pm

Asian female. Should I not disclose my ethnicity? If I don't, will I still be discriminated against?

QContinuum

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Re: Asian female--should I not disclose my ethnicity?

Postby QContinuum » Tue Oct 02, 2018 12:59 pm

Law schools admit people primarily on the basis of GPA/LSAT, with softs considered around the edges and a boost given to URMs. They will not ding applicants on the basis of gender or race.

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tada77

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Re: Asian female--should I not disclose my ethnicity?

Postby tada77 » Tue Oct 02, 2018 2:32 pm

Not sure why this is a concern. You won't get a URM boost but they can't deny you because of your ethnicity. In my opinion, you should disclose whatever they ask for.

ModestMewtwo

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Re: Asian female--should I not disclose my ethnicity?

Postby ModestMewtwo » Fri Oct 05, 2018 4:24 am

two responses so far seem woefully naive. Asians are over-represented in law school. Law schools operate on what is basically a soft quota system. So yes saying you're Asian can hurt you, and withholding it can help. Yes it is discriminatory and it does suck. Obviously though it depends a lot on the school and what their pool of qualified applicants looks like.

FWIW I'm Asian and I disclosed it though.

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tada77

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Re: Asian female--should I not disclose my ethnicity?

Postby tada77 » Fri Oct 05, 2018 2:11 pm

ModestMewtwo wrote:two responses so far seem woefully naive. Asians are over-represented in law school. Law schools operate on what is basically a soft quota system. So yes saying you're Asian can hurt you, and withholding it can help. Yes it is discriminatory and it does suck. Obviously though it depends a lot on the school and what their pool of qualified applicants looks like.

FWIW I'm Asian and I disclosed it though.


Please elaborate on "soft quota system" and show evidence that people are being denied specifically because they are Asian (not simply not receiving a URM boost). For what you're saying to be true, law schools would have to be actively discriminating against Asian applicants, not just failing to give them a boost. That's a major accusation, so it would be helpful to know how you think you know this. If this were widely believed to be true in law school admissions, no Asian person would ever reveal their ethnicity.

QContinuum

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Re: Asian female--should I not disclose my ethnicity?

Postby QContinuum » Fri Oct 05, 2018 5:23 pm

tada77 wrote:
ModestMewtwo wrote:two responses so far seem woefully naive. Asians are over-represented in law school. Law schools operate on what is basically a soft quota system. So yes saying you're Asian can hurt you, and withholding it can help. Yes it is discriminatory and it does suck. Obviously though it depends a lot on the school and what their pool of qualified applicants looks like.

FWIW I'm Asian and I disclosed it though.


Please elaborate on "soft quota system" and show evidence that people are being denied specifically because they are Asian (not simply not receiving a URM boost). For what you're saying to be true, law schools would have to be actively discriminating against Asian applicants, not just failing to give them a boost. That's a major accusation, so it would be helpful to know how you think you know this. If this were widely believed to be true in law school admissions, no Asian person would ever reveal their ethnicity.


If law schools were dinging people for being Asian, this would've been on the front page of the NYT yesterday - and we'd have multiple class-action suits moving through the courts.

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Wild Card

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Re: Asian female--should I not disclose my ethnicity?

Postby Wild Card » Fri Oct 05, 2018 8:53 pm

No, only Asian men are discriminated against. Law schools can still use you to kill two birds with one stone: to meet their gender quota and to pretend as if they don't discriminate against Asians.

In law school, you also shouldn't hesitate to apply for diversity scholarships. For the same reason I stated above, these groups will always want to select at least 1 Asian woman.

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Wild Card

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Re: Asian female--should I not disclose my ethnicity?

Postby Wild Card » Fri Oct 05, 2018 9:00 pm

QContinuum wrote:
tada77 wrote:
ModestMewtwo wrote:two responses so far seem woefully naive. Asians are over-represented in law school. Law schools operate on what is basically a soft quota system. So yes saying you're Asian can hurt you, and withholding it can help. Yes it is discriminatory and it does suck. Obviously though it depends a lot on the school and what their pool of qualified applicants looks like.

FWIW I'm Asian and I disclosed it though.


Please elaborate on "soft quota system" and show evidence that people are being denied specifically because they are Asian (not simply not receiving a URM boost). For what you're saying to be true, law schools would have to be actively discriminating against Asian applicants, not just failing to give them a boost. That's a major accusation, so it would be helpful to know how you think you know this. If this were widely believed to be true in law school admissions, no Asian person would ever reveal their ethnicity.


If law schools were dinging people for being Asian, this would've been on the front page of the NYT yesterday - and we'd have multiple class-action suits moving through the courts.


Law schools don't ding people for being Asian: they hold people of Asian descent to a higher standard: higher than those standards applied to Blacks, Hispanics, and Whites. Harvard is facing a class action for discriminating against Asians at the undergraduate level: the case survived summary judgment and is going to trial.

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Re: Asian female--should I not disclose my ethnicity?

Postby QContinuum » Fri Oct 05, 2018 9:26 pm

Wild Card wrote:
QContinuum wrote:
tada77 wrote:Please elaborate on "soft quota system" and show evidence that people are being denied specifically because they are Asian (not simply not receiving a URM boost). For what you're saying to be true, law schools would have to be actively discriminating against Asian applicants, not just failing to give them a boost. That's a major accusation, so it would be helpful to know how you think you know this. If this were widely believed to be true in law school admissions, no Asian person would ever reveal their ethnicity.


If law schools were dinging people for being Asian, this would've been on the front page of the NYT yesterday - and we'd have multiple class-action suits moving through the courts.


Law schools don't ding people for being Asian: they hold people of Asian descent to a higher standard: higher than those standards applied to Blacks, Hispanics, and Whites. Harvard is facing a class action for discriminating against Asians at the undergraduate level: the case survived summary judgment and is going to trial.


So IOW, Harvard Law School is not facing suit for discriminating against Asians. Undergraduate admissions are very different from law school admissions, as is generally known. Elite colleges generally use a "holistic" approach where "softs" may be equally or even more important than high school GPA/SAT. In contrast, law school adcoms (excepting Yale and Stanford to some extent) are notorious for running an almost exclusively numbers-based process. It's why folks can predict with almost perfect certainty which law schools an applicant will get into, given his/her GPA and LSAT. Impossible to do the same with GPA/SAT in college admissions.

The numbers-based process means it'd be comically simple to tell if Asian applicants were routinely underperforming their GPA/LSAT. And comically easy to sue.

ModestMewtwo

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Re: Asian female--should I not disclose my ethnicity?

Postby ModestMewtwo » Sat Oct 06, 2018 12:06 am

QContinuum wrote:
Wild Card wrote:
QContinuum wrote:
tada77 wrote:Please elaborate on "soft quota system" and show evidence that people are being denied specifically because they are Asian (not simply not receiving a URM boost). For what you're saying to be true, law schools would have to be actively discriminating against Asian applicants, not just failing to give them a boost. That's a major accusation, so it would be helpful to know how you think you know this. If this were widely believed to be true in law school admissions, no Asian person would ever reveal their ethnicity.


If law schools were dinging people for being Asian, this would've been on the front page of the NYT yesterday - and we'd have multiple class-action suits moving through the courts.


Law schools don't ding people for being Asian: they hold people of Asian descent to a higher standard: higher than those standards applied to Blacks, Hispanics, and Whites. Harvard is facing a class action for discriminating against Asians at the undergraduate level: the case survived summary judgment and is going to trial.


So IOW, Harvard Law School is not facing suit for discriminating against Asians. Undergraduate admissions are very different from law school admissions, as is generally known. Elite colleges generally use a "holistic" approach where "softs" may be equally or even more important than high school GPA/SAT. In contrast, law school adcoms (excepting Yale and Stanford to some extent) are notorious for running an almost exclusively numbers-based process. It's why folks can predict with almost perfect certainty which law schools an applicant will get into, given his/her GPA and LSAT. Impossible to do the same with GPA/SAT in college admissions.

The numbers-based process means it'd be comically simple to tell if Asian applicants were routinely underperforming their GPA/LSAT. And comically easy to sue.


it took a couple decades of the practice in UG admissions to prompt a lawsuit that is now finally getting some traction. The decision from that case would set a precedent for graduate schools as well, which may be why no group has found it necessary to file a parallel action specific to law schools.

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tada77

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Re: Asian female--should I not disclose my ethnicity?

Postby tada77 » Sat Oct 06, 2018 2:53 pm

ModestMewtwo wrote:
QContinuum wrote:
Wild Card wrote:
QContinuum wrote:
tada77 wrote:Please elaborate on "soft quota system" and show evidence that people are being denied specifically because they are Asian (not simply not receiving a URM boost). For what you're saying to be true, law schools would have to be actively discriminating against Asian applicants, not just failing to give them a boost. That's a major accusation, so it would be helpful to know how you think you know this. If this were widely believed to be true in law school admissions, no Asian person would ever reveal their ethnicity.


If law schools were dinging people for being Asian, this would've been on the front page of the NYT yesterday - and we'd have multiple class-action suits moving through the courts.


Law schools don't ding people for being Asian: they hold people of Asian descent to a higher standard: higher than those standards applied to Blacks, Hispanics, and Whites. Harvard is facing a class action for discriminating against Asians at the undergraduate level: the case survived summary judgment and is going to trial.


So IOW, Harvard Law School is not facing suit for discriminating against Asians. Undergraduate admissions are very different from law school admissions, as is generally known. Elite colleges generally use a "holistic" approach where "softs" may be equally or even more important than high school GPA/SAT. In contrast, law school adcoms (excepting Yale and Stanford to some extent) are notorious for running an almost exclusively numbers-based process. It's why folks can predict with almost perfect certainty which law schools an applicant will get into, given his/her GPA and LSAT. Impossible to do the same with GPA/SAT in college admissions.

The numbers-based process means it'd be comically simple to tell if Asian applicants were routinely underperforming their GPA/LSAT. And comically easy to sue.


it took a couple decades of the practice in UG admissions to prompt a lawsuit that is now finally getting some traction. The decision from that case would set a precedent for graduate schools as well, which may be why no group has found it necessary to file a parallel action specific to law schools.


Just because that could be true doesn't mean we can or should assume it is. You've offered literally no evidence other than your personal belief that Asians are being actively discriminated against in law school admissions. Come on.

dhas

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Re: Asian female--should I not disclose my ethnicity?

Postby dhas » Sat Oct 06, 2018 4:56 pm

i was wondering the same thing
as somebody who is biracial (half east asian and half native american) but adopted transnationally from an east asian country, I dont know how to represent myself in my application. i think that urm status may give you a "plus" factor while being asian would not count against you (it would just not be considered a plus that makes you a more "attractive" applicant).

QContinuum

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Re: Asian female--should I not disclose my ethnicity?

Postby QContinuum » Thu Oct 18, 2018 7:09 pm

dhas wrote:i was wondering the same thing
as somebody who is biracial (half east asian and half native american) but adopted transnationally from an east asian country, I dont know how to represent myself in my application. i think that urm status may give you a "plus" factor while being asian would not count against you (it would just not be considered a plus that makes you a more "attractive" applicant).


IMO, you can check both the Asian and Native American boxes, and write a diversity statement explaining your unique experience as a biracial international adoptee. I believe you'll still get the Native American URM boost (it's not like being half-Asian "erases" your Native American half!).

ETA: Assuming you do check the Native American box, I'd definitely recommend writing the diversity statement described above if you don't have a traditionally Native American name. If, e.g., you have a traditionally Asian surname, you don't want adcoms to question why you checked the Native American box.

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Thomas Hagan, ESQ.

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Re: Asian female--should I not disclose my ethnicity?

Postby Thomas Hagan, ESQ. » Fri Oct 19, 2018 12:35 pm

Just put down your ethnicity.....

Hilarious how people struggle with whether or not disclosing their ethnicity will hurt them, but 95% of the time, their PS or DS is going to be about "why I'm proud to be (insert ethnicity that you're hesitant to disclose because you think it might hurt your chances)".

QContinuum

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Re: Asian female--should I not disclose my ethnicity?

Postby QContinuum » Fri Oct 19, 2018 1:49 pm

Thomas Hagan, ESQ. wrote:Just put down your ethnicity.....

Hilarious how people struggle with whether or not disclosing their ethnicity will hurt them, but 95% of the time, their PS or DS is going to be about "why I'm proud to be (insert ethnicity that you're hesitant to disclose because you think it might hurt your chances)".


Also, in many cases (such as for Asians, like OP), one's last name can be a pretty strong indicator of ethnicity.

JoblessAndHopeless

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Re: Asian female--should I not disclose my ethnicity?

Postby JoblessAndHopeless » Sat Oct 20, 2018 11:50 am

Wild Card wrote:No, only Asian men are discriminated against.


Is this generally true? As an Asian man, personally I do feel this to be generally true, not just for schools but also for work and jobs, and other areas of life here in America. Wondering what others think about this, or experienced this.

QContinuum

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Re: Asian female--should I not disclose my ethnicity?

Postby QContinuum » Sat Oct 20, 2018 9:26 pm

JoblessAndHopeless wrote:
Wild Card wrote:No, only Asian men are discriminated against.


Is this generally true? As an Asian man, personally I do feel this to be generally true, not just for schools but also for work and jobs, and other areas of life here in America. Wondering what others think about this, or experienced this.


Asian men don't get a URM boost in law school admissions (nor do Asian women, for that matter). And Asian men (Asian women too, actually) may be at a disadvantage in networking, especially with older white lawyers. It's possible, I guess, that Asian women have it easier in certain respects than Asian men (although I'd argue that Asian women face stereotypes about gender, pregnancy, and motherhood that no man will ever have to overcome).

But at least for law school admissions, I'm pretty sure Asian men aren't discriminated against. As I noted earlier ITT, law school admissions are notoriously numbers-driven. It'd be comically easy to tell if Asian men were generally underperforming their GPA/LSAT relative to white men. If this were the case, it would've been all over the news a long time ago.



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