AA-male w/177 July LSAT HYS/T14 Chances??

(BLS, URM status, non-traditional, GLBT)
orokep

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Re: AA-male w/177 July LSAT HYS/T14 Chances??

Postby orokep » Fri Aug 17, 2018 7:01 pm

hlsperson1111 wrote:There are nearly 350 D1 schools. At 105 players per roster, that's over 36k people in any given year. It's really that hard to believe that one of them majored in engineering and got a 177 on the LSAT?


I can see their reasoning. It isn't that absurd lol. Think about it like this:

Each football class has about 25 people so it would be closer to 9k people in a year. Of those 9k it would be surprising if even 10% of them were engineering majors. I was the only one in all 4 years I played. Typically, the academic advisors push student athletes into the arts because they tend to be easier majors and their main concern is keeping athletes eligible. Now add on the 177 which only 0.2% of the testing population achieves and it would be very fortunate if 1 or 2 people with such credentials existed in any given year.

Theoretically, someone like this probably comes out once every (n) years. So I get the doubts.

we'rebothmenofthelaw

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Re: AA-male w/177 July LSAT HYS/T14 Chances??

Postby we'rebothmenofthelaw » Sun Aug 19, 2018 11:01 am

Congrats on the lsat and general accomplishments, and I hope you find a way to continue to ignore those who can’t believe you exist.

In addition to making an airtight, well-edited application, I think you nyeed to create coherent narrative built around a thesis that your combination of abilities (evidently tremendous), experiences (unusual and cool), and goals (I’ve got no idea) will make you an excellent classmate, student, and lawyer/law school grad. At some level that’s the thesis of most applications, but you have more interesting components to string together than most people.

As far as how that translates to an application, I offer two thoughts.

1. Figure out how you’re going to address/negate the inferences readers could draw from your low gpa. Law schools want folks who can do high-quality work, measured against talented peers, for three years of school and for their professional careers. A low gpa is bad evidence for that against that ability, so muster evidence that (1) shows why your UG gpa isn’t predictive of your law school performance and (2) demonstrates that you’ve exercised the skills you’ll need to succeed in law school in places other than the UG classroom.

2. Consider taking some (calculated) risks in your application, if there’s a reason to. You’re asking them to take a risk on you, so take a risk on yourself. Write something true.

orokep

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Re: AA-male w/177 July LSAT HYS/T14 Chances??

Postby orokep » Sun Aug 19, 2018 9:16 pm

we'rebothmenofthelaw wrote:Congrats on the lsat and general accomplishments, and I hope you find a way to continue to ignore those who can’t believe you exist.

In addition to making an airtight, well-edited application, I think you nyeed to create coherent narrative built around a thesis that your combination of abilities (evidently tremendous), experiences (unusual and cool), and goals (I’ve got no idea) will make you an excellent classmate, student, and lawyer/law school grad. At some level that’s the thesis of most applications, but you have more interesting components to string together than most people.

As far as how that translates to an application, I offer two thoughts.

1. Figure out how you’re going to address/negate the inferences readers could draw from your low gpa. Law schools want folks who can do high-quality work, measured against talented peers, for three years of school and for their professional careers. A low gpa is bad evidence for that against that ability, so muster evidence that (1) shows why your UG gpa isn’t predictive of your law school performance and (2) demonstrates that you’ve exercised the skills you’ll need to succeed in law school in places other than the UG classroom.

2. Consider taking some (calculated) risks in your application, if there’s a reason to. You’re asking them to take a risk on you, so take a risk on yourself. Write something true.


Thanks! This sounds like great input that I'll be able to incorporate throughout my applications. Your general thoughts on building out a thesis that touches on the points you mentioned seems like an excellent way to highlight my upside throughout the entire application without reading off my resume over and over again.

I want to pick your brain further regarding the two thoughts you offered in regards to translating it to the application.

In regards to your first thought:

Do you think it would be appropriate/wise to discuss the path to a 177 lsat and how it is quite similar to obtaining a high gpa during undergrad as one of the talking points to dissuade inferences typically made of low gpa applicants?

Reasoning:
While scores up to maybe the 165-171 range commonly seem possible to attain with simply a modest yet consistent work ethic and good quality preparation, scores in excess of 176 imply that you missed approximately 3-4 out of the 101 total questions with the missed questions typically a result of misreading a sentence or stimulus from going too fast. Getting to that point takes a long term consistent commitment and an extremely high quality of preparation with a focus on perfecting every aspect of the exam to the point of complete comprehension. Typically it seems scorers at this level have studied in excess of 6 months to a year at a very high intensity that is arguably more rigorous than that required to achieve a high gpa. To put it in perspective, over the last year only about 300 of 130,000 total test takers scored a 177 or higher on the LSAT. What are your thoughts on this?

In regards to the second thought you offered:
I agree that eschewing the tried and true methods commonly exhibited in successful essays and applications for a significantly bolder approach is how I should proceed given the highly unnatural circumstances and the potentially high amount of perceived risk law schools may have in regards to my gpa. How do you feel about limiting the very bold approaches to HYS and maybe slightly shifting back towards a bolder yet safe approach for U.Chicago/NYU/Columbia then taking a safe but unique approach with the other schools in the T-14? Or, do you think It would be the better move to go for bold all around?

Reasoning:
Everything outside of the top 6 could technically use 2 students with a 4.0 and lower lsat to average my gpa out since there 75th percentile is only around a 168+/-2 so it would be much less risk theoretically.

orokep

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Re: AA-male w/177 July LSAT HYS/T14 Chances??

Postby orokep » Sun Aug 19, 2018 9:17 pm

Anyone have any input on whether or not they would seriously consider ED (early decision) if they were in my shoes?

nixy

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Re: AA-male w/177 July LSAT HYS/T14 Chances??

Postby nixy » Sun Aug 19, 2018 10:22 pm

Personally, I would not discuss the path to a 177, because I think that would be a boring PS that could potentially come off as defensive. I suppose it would depend on how you wrote it, but I just don't see how that would give a very good sense of you as a person, which is what is expected of a PS. (I also don't actually think the path to the 177 is very similar to the path to a high UGPA, but that may just me.)

Personally, I think that an application showing that you played D1 football and majored in engineering would make really clear why your GPA is low. I think the advice about negating inferences drawn from your GPA is more about the broader advice to turn in the most polished, professional application you can. If you have a low GPA and your application is awkward/poorly written/has typos etc., the 177 might look like a fluke, or like you're a test savant who can't really excel in other settings. But if your application as a whole is impeccable, well written, interesting, thoughtful, and offers a clear central narrative about why you want to go to law school/what you have to offer as a lawyer, that will all look consistent with the 177 and make clear that the GPA isn't representative of you now.

(If you wanted, you could write a GPA addendum, but that should be very short and sweet and to the point, and given that your athletic commitment and major will be clear in the rest of your application, here it may not be necessary. But you could submit one about the commitments on your time if you want to make sure they know that you know the low GPA is an issue, and that there aren't other worse reasons for it, like slacking.)

I also would not ED in your shoes, unless you really don't care about cost at all (which would make you very unusual/lucky). Except for NU, ED is a recipe for not getting scholarships, and you should get into a range of schools without EDing. Again, maybe not HYS b/c of hard GPA floors, but it's worth a shot and they don't offer ED anyway. You could try your luck this year and see what happens and if you don't like your outcomes, try ED the following year.

jgloster

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Re: AA-male w/177 July LSAT HYS/T14 Chances??

Postby jgloster » Tue Aug 21, 2018 8:22 am

Who cares if you got a 177 (if you are a real person)? It doesn't actually mean you achieved anything...just means that you're innately intelligent or can do practice problems repeatedly for hours on end.

Standardized test scores stand on their own. You don't need to explain to admissions people why they're important or how you got them.

Do a Personal Statement on playing football. Or concussions or something. That seems a little more logical for a PS... :roll:

XenuKillerOfWorlds

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Re: AA-male w/177 July LSAT HYS/T14 Chances??

Postby XenuKillerOfWorlds » Sun Sep 09, 2018 7:02 am

0% Chance at H/Y/S

Edit cause I saw you've graduate for a year+ which might make a difference: What have you been doing?

XenuKillerOfWorlds

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Re: AA-male w/177 July LSAT HYS/T14 Chances??

Postby XenuKillerOfWorlds » Sun Sep 09, 2018 8:15 am

Sorry, about the double post; going to put all my advice in one post since this thread is a little old. To clarify, all my advice is just about HYS:

orokep wrote:
we'rebothmenofthelaw wrote:Congrats on the lsat and general accomplishments, and I hope you find a way to continue to ignore those who can’t believe you exist.

Do you think it would be appropriate/wise to discuss the path to a 177 lsat and how it is quite similar to obtaining a high gpa during undergrad as one of the talking points to dissuade inferences typically made of low gpa applicants?

Reasoning:
While scores up to maybe the 165-171 range commonly seem possible to attain with simply a modest yet consistent work ethic and good quality preparation, scores in excess of 176 imply that you missed approximately 3-4 out of the 101 total questions with the missed questions typically a result of misreading a sentence or stimulus from going too fast. Getting to that point takes a long term consistent commitment and an extremely high quality of preparation with a focus on perfecting every aspect of the exam to the point of complete comprehension. Typically it seems scorers at this level have studied in excess of 6 months to a year at a very high intensity that is arguably more rigorous than that required to achieve a high gpa. To put it in perspective, over the last year only about 300 of 130,000 total test takers scored a 177 or higher on the LSAT. What are your thoughts on this?



As others have said, this is an extremely bad idea and I can't see a way such an essay wouldn't significantly hurt your chances. As someone who received a very similar score to what you're describing, I'm honestly having a hard time believing you're super familiar with the LSAT. The notion that you can infer anything about the commitment of an LSAT taker from a single score is absolutely absurd. I don't think there's anything valuable about me trying to argue that you don't have the score, but if you haven't taken the LSAT, you should not make any estimates about your score, or worse, get estimates about your admissions prospects based on an estimated score.

Here's the challenge your application is going to run into: you don't have a record of academic success. Do you have good reasons to explain why your GPA was low? Maybe (depending on how well you can explain why those issues weren't solved for 4 years of college but won't be as much of a problem in the future) but explaining away the bad does not make a case for why you're a good student now. That's why I bring up the question of what you've been doing since graduation since low GPA candidates often have to rely on this bump. Things that I think could help your chances:

1. Significant time in the military
2. Excelling in a PHD or an especially rigorous Master's Program
3. Starting / leading a business or nonprofit for a significant amount of time
4. Recommendations from undergraduate with your professors saying you were a fantastic student in their specific classes.

The first three things are, in my opinion, ridiculous actions to take solely to get into law school, but everyone's calculus is different. There's a tendency to think that high LSAT scores can save the day, but honestly, I can't see a 177 being any different from a 170 as far as your chances at HYS go.

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hoos89

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Re: AA-male w/177 July LSAT HYS/T14 Chances??

Postby hoos89 » Mon Sep 10, 2018 12:00 pm

XenuKillerOfWorlds wrote:0% Chance at H/Y/S

Edit cause I saw you've graduate for a year+ which might make a difference: What have you been doing?


There's literally no way you can know this. We lack the data necessary to chance OP at HYS.



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