Debevoise

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MaxMcMann

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Re: Debevoise

Postby MaxMcMann » Mon Aug 06, 2018 2:35 am

Wait, is this the same guy who made all those random O'Melveny accusations in the NY to 190k thread?

Could've sworn the same obscure blog (with a similarly interesting writing style to the accused multiposter here) is posted in both places.

dixiecup

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Re: Debevoise

Postby dixiecup » Mon Aug 06, 2018 10:10 am

MaxMcMann wrote:Wait, is this the same guy who made all those random O'Melveny accusations in the NY to 190k thread?

Could've sworn the same obscure blog (with a similarly interesting writing style to the accused multiposter here) is posted in both places.


Wrong again. I've read that O'Melveny blog. The author's name is in the blog and he worked at O'Melveny. Here it is http://brian-boyle-omelveny-torture-att ... gspot.com/

I have a better question. Why are you attacking posters for complaining about racism at Debevoise? Are you making an example of them? Are you trying to frighten people who think of saying the r-word? Again, I want to know what Otavia and her friends plan to do to this black Debevoise associate once they use handwriting analysis to find them.

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nealric

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Re: Debevoise

Postby nealric » Mon Aug 06, 2018 11:12 am

MODERATOR NOTE:

I'd like to keep this thread in the interest of transparency. The topic has garnered a lot of interest, and people want their voices heard.

HOWEVER- please refrain from making comments about other posters and stick to discussing the topic of diversity at Debevoise and other firms. Abuse of other posters may result in posting vacations and/or force me to shut the thread down.

MaxMcMann

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Re: Debevoise

Postby MaxMcMann » Mon Aug 06, 2018 11:26 am

dixiecup wrote:
MaxMcMann wrote:Wait, is this the same guy who made all those random O'Melveny accusations in the NY to 190k thread?

Could've sworn the same obscure blog (with a similarly interesting writing style to the accused multiposter here) is posted in both places.


Wrong again. I've read that O'Melveny blog. The author's name is in the blog and he worked at O'Melveny. Here it is http://brian-boyle-omelveny-torture-att ... gspot.com/

I have a better question. Why are you attacking posters for complaining about racism at Debevoise? Are you making an example of them? Are you trying to frighten people who think of saying the r-word? Again, I want to know what Otavia and her friends plan to do to this black Debevoise associate once they use handwriting analysis to find them.


[ATTACK REDACTED BY MODERATOR]. I'll try a serious response:

I had a long post written out, but there is a very clear moderator notice to not discuss pretty much any of the topics in the thread so I'll leave on this general note: racism is vile and it's disheartening how common it is in our society. However, OP would be taking a huge career risk with a fairly low chance of a positive outcome. If they want to be a potential martyr for a good cause, that's admirable. Regardless, it's only fair that they know what they're signing up for before they pull the trigger on a decision this serious, which is what most of the posters here appear to be suggesting.

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nealric

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Re: Debevoise

Postby nealric » Mon Aug 06, 2018 11:31 am

NDorWM wrote:
nealric wrote:MODERATOR NOTE:

I'd like to keep this thread in the interest of transparency. The topic has garnered a lot of interest, and people want their voices heard.

HOWEVER- please refrain from making comments about other posters and stick to discussing the topic of diversity at Debevoise and other firms. Abuse of other posters may result in posting vacations and/or force me to shut the thread down.

Mods, as an outsider to this thread, can you at least confirm the posters are in fact different IPs? That seems critical to knowing whether this discussion is in good faith with some of the posters.


I'm a tax lawyer volunteering to moderate the forum, not a IT specialist with time for forensic analysis. Whether certain posters are sock puppets is not germane. What is germane is whether posters can debate respectfully and without attacking each other. If that can't happen, I will just shut the thread down.

dixiecup

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Re: Debevoise

Postby dixiecup » Mon Aug 06, 2018 11:32 am

nealric wrote:
NDorWM wrote:
nealric wrote:MODERATOR NOTE:

I'd like to keep this thread in the interest of transparency. The topic has garnered a lot of interest, and people want their voices heard.

HOWEVER- please refrain from making comments about other posters and stick to discussing the topic of diversity at Debevoise and other firms. Abuse of other posters may result in posting vacations and/or force me to shut the thread down.

Mods, as an outsider to this thread, can you at least confirm the posters are in fact different IPs? That seems critical to knowing whether this discussion is in good faith with some of the posters.


I'm a tax lawyer volunteering to moderate the forum, not a IT specialist with time for forensic analysis. Whether certain posters are sock puppets is not germane. What is germane is whether posters can debate respectfully and without attacking each other. If that can't happen, I will just shut the thread down.


If you shut it down, please do not delete it. It's a chilling but informative microcosm of the profession IMHO.

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nealric

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Re: Debevoise

Postby nealric » Mon Aug 06, 2018 11:47 am

Any further posts not directly on topic will be deleted. If there's a question or comment about moderation, please contact me via PM about it.

dixiecup

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Re: Debevoise

Postby dixiecup » Mon Aug 06, 2018 6:19 pm

It appears this thread is dead. Before I leave, I want to offer my full support to the African Americans who suffered through discrimination at Debevoise. [MOD NOTE: REFERENCES TO OTHER POSTERS REMOVED] To show you that I listened, below is a list of the most touching parts of your posts. Good luck to you and thank you for sharing your thoughts.

================================================================================

There is a clear difference in the experience the black associates get at Debevoise in contrast to white associates. And I don't mean "oh there's only a handful of us so we're underrepresented". I mean a clear difference in work, opportunities for growth, firm committee involvement, & even speaking opportunities. Lukash @ 7/19 7:01AM.

Starting this Monday, Debevoise will not have any black senior associates either in their corporate or litigation groups. That was according to the DBL timeline. The last remaining senior associate, in corporate, leaves tomorrow and by most accounts, he was forced out. Lukash @ 7/19 7:01AM.

Debevoise brings in black associates for the numbers but then gradually forces them out by not giving them good work or simply asking them to leave. Lukash @ 7/19 7:01AM.

You are not the first to make this claim about Debevoise. With what I know about the place I honestly wouldnt go there if I was African American. Stellar firm with great reput. but not a place for certain lawyers. They are known for demoralizing African American associates by not giving them substantive work as they become more senior. Youll be doing doc review and diligence as a 6th year while your white colleagues are running trials and deals. Its just how it is. Mokosc @ 7/27 7:31AM.

At Debevoise, if you're white, and you produce good\satisfactory work, they will work with you to improve and turn you into a great lawyer. You only get that way with more work and increased responsibility so sure, it makes sense. If you're black, and you produce good\satisfactory work, they will write you off, quickly. Goran @ 7/28 6:51AM.

No doubt this is why Debevoise has been only able to promote ONE black associate to partner. And that partner didn't even start at Debevoise. If my memory serves me right she came from another firm or a company. Either way she had time to develop her skills somewhere else before coming to Debevoise. Goran @ 7/28 6:51AM.

There were countless times when the white partners\associates I worked with raged against black lawyers for being incompetent and made negative comments when it was just us white lawyers\paras around. Only for me to work with the same black lawyers and find out it wasn't even true, remotely. Goran @ 7/28 6:51AM.

I had to create an account just to say I'm a former Debevoise associate and this post really hit home. Do you have any idea how many promising black litigators were discriminated against during the Mary Jo White era? Great black lawyers were forced out of the firm because of bigot partners, many of whom are still at Debevoise. Belkin0238 @ 7/28 6:34PM.

I've litigated cases opposite Debevoise. Its a great shop but I also wrote at the beginning of this thread that I wouldnt work there if I was a black associate. I remember one case that dragged on for a while where one of the Debevoise leads was a black associate. Clearly smart and a pleasure to deal with. We directed most questions to her because the white partner was clearly too busy to maintain control of the case. What was off about the whole structure was that the partner left her off most emails and it felt like we were the ones actually providing her with updates about her own case. Discrimination? Not on the face of those facts. There could be various reasons, for example, maybe the partner wanted to take on more of the lead role. Except that was clearly not the case since the partner was too busy. And I also personally knew it not to be the case, because the partner did not handle case 2, another case we litigated but different team, in the same way. A white associate led a separate team on case 2 with this same partner. The white associate was on all emails and our principal contact at Debevoise until settlement. White associate was also junior (maybe by a year or two) to black associate. So why the different treatment of the black associate? I dont know. And not my problem. But if someone at Debevoise saw this clear difference in treatment, they shouldve reported it. I'll tell you this much, about a year after case 1 ended, an issue came up and I reached back out to the black associate. I got an email bounce back. She had already left the firm. That kind of associate would've been made partner at my firm. Mokosc @ 7/30 6:51AM.

A huge part of the problem are the racist/biased partners, and we're really talking about a handful of people here, many that are still at Debevoise and are incredibly skilled at keeping this whole cycle of hate going just so they can dictate what the partnership looks like. . . . many of these partners do have their minions within the senior associate ranks who effectively sell their souls and terrorize black associates in hopes of one day becoming partner themselves. Belkin0238 @ 7/31 6:14AM.

And let's be clear about something: It is NOT at all hard for Debevoise to find the problem partners. In fact, Debevoise should already know who the problem partners are. If upward reviews and multiple surveys didn't tease this out for you, then how about asking your associates about their treatment. Ask your staff about their treatment. If there is a platform to speak honestly, without recourse, many people will speak up. And even better, look at the track record of the partners. You have partners who are KNOWN for mistreating black lawyers at your firm. Belkin0238 @ 7/31 6:14AM.

We're staying on topic that these are partners or senior level folks with real, clearly articulable issues when it comes to lawyers of color and you have the stories to back up your claims. Let me know when Im coming undone here. Still on track? Ok good - listen, the only real "positive" way to move on is to get the word out about these poeple. Let the investigation take its course and start the healing. Mokosc @ 8/3 5:45AM

I remember two lit partners at Debevoise were a bit loose with their use of colorful language while addressing AA associates. The male partner parted ways with the firm, or maybe it was the other way around, some years back but doubtful it was over an issue like racial discrimination. The female lit partner is known for casually dropping the N word in safe spaces but screwed up bigly by doing one day while in a room with another analyst, an associate, and bingo, an African American associate. Said partner was mortified and apologized right away and then followed up with the AA associate to make sure they were good. Dont know if the AA associate actually reported. The partner is still at the firm, mind you, long after the rest of us have left. Goran @ 8/3 8:27AM.

It happened. But its "water under the bridge". She apologized and the associate accepted the apology instead of making a bigger deal of it. She's definitely one of the rotten apples that come to mind. Might be the worst of the bunch actually. But she carries a big book of business and a bigger obnoxious laugh that she uses to defuse situations. Belkin0238 @ 8/3 9:00AM.

$hit just got real. Said partner wouldn't be a former AUSA in the lower part of Manhattan would she? :roll: How sad that "casually" was my tipoff HMPFF! If its her then she tried some cases alongside one of my older siblings who told me some crazy war stories about her. Hell of a lawyer but she has issues. Mokosc @ 8/3 9:17AM.

I did not say or inference that the partner called the associate the N word. I said she used the word when an African American associate was in the room. African Americans do have a problem with a white person using the N word even in casual conversation. I brought up the situation to highlight a point which is, you shouldnt be a crusader because it doesnt mean a partner's ((maybe unintended)) offensive conduct will result in drastic action being taken. I repeat, I was not saying that Debevoise is a place where partners go about calling their associates the N word. . . . No it is not. I don't know who you are referring to but that is not the partner I am talking about. The person I am talking about got along fine but she assumed she was in a safe space when she used the bad language. As I already said she was remorseful and apologized when she realized the African American associate was in the room. I used it as an example of when an action that can cause hurt might still not get disciplined so dont be a crusader. Goran @ 8/3 7:54PM.

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nealric

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Re: Debevoise

Postby nealric » Wed Aug 08, 2018 8:29 am

I issued explicit instructions to stay on topic and PM the mods about moderation issues, but a user insisted on using this thread to discuss alt account theories. The user has been given a 3 day posting vacation.



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