Howard?

(BLS, URM status, non-traditional, GLBT)
idilbeshir
Posts: 5
Joined: Sat Sep 02, 2017 2:11 pm

Howard?

Postby idilbeshir » Tue Nov 14, 2017 8:27 pm

Hi everyone.

Wondering what the general thoughts are on Howard? I've spoken to a few black lawyers who recommended I apply there because big law firms recruit many students from there annually (more so than some T-14's, and stats support this).

I've also heard awful things about being a minority at many T-14 schools, and law school seems stressful enough without having to worry about racist profs/students.

Would love any and all feedback.

Thanks!

sparkytrainer
Posts: 319
Joined: Sat Jan 17, 2015 12:32 am

Re: Howard?

Postby sparkytrainer » Tue Nov 14, 2017 8:34 pm

What do you mean they do really well with biglaw?

That objectively is false.

See https://www.lstreports.com/schools/howard/jobs/

Less than 50% of Howard grads are getting long-term, legal jobs. You have more than a coins flip chance at never working in law at all, let alone big law. Less than 20% of the class even sniffs biglaw, very generously defined.

At the t13, you have a better change of getting biglaw 60% from Cornell to 85% chance at Columbia and Duke. How is 85% chance of biglaw specifically at a t13 in any way comparable to a law school who doesn't have HALF THE CLASS EVER GET A LEGAL JOB?

So yeah.

Edit: and at my t13, I have not heard of a single case of a racist professor or student or any racist incident involving the law school. The URM community at mine is fantastic and I am glad I came here.

idilbeshir
Posts: 5
Joined: Sat Sep 02, 2017 2:11 pm

Re: Howard?

Postby idilbeshir » Tue Nov 14, 2017 8:52 pm

sparkytrainer wrote:What do you mean they do really well with biglaw?

That objectively is false.

See https://www.lstreports.com/schools/howard/jobs/

Less than 50% of Howard grads are getting long-term, legal jobs. You have more than a coins flip chance at never working in law at all, let alone big law. Less than 20% of the class even sniffs biglaw, very generously defined.

At the t13, you have a better change of getting biglaw 60% from Cornell to 85% chance at Columbia and Duke. How is 85% chance of biglaw specifically at a t13 in any way comparable to a law school who doesn't have HALF THE CLASS EVER GET A LEGAL JOB?

So yeah.

Edit: and at my t13, I have not heard of a single case of a racist professor or student or any racist incident involving the law school. The URM community at mine is fantastic and I am glad I came here.


Thanks for that. What I was told was that big law firms actively recruit from Howard to hire diverse associates, and that they are more likely to top 15% of a class from Howard, than dig into the bottom half of T-14 schools (HSY excluded). I also know many people who've graduated from Howard and are doing very well for themselves. Howard has a lower LSAT median, so of course there are some people who shouldn't be in law school...but I don't think that's to say there is a problem with how the school teaches.

I've talked to former students who are happy, and current students who love it. I'm obviously hesitant because of the numbers, but I have family that graduated from t-14 schools in the last few years, and watched their struggle.

So yeah.

sparkytrainer
Posts: 319
Joined: Sat Jan 17, 2015 12:32 am

Re: Howard?

Postby sparkytrainer » Tue Nov 14, 2017 9:01 pm

idilbeshir wrote:
sparkytrainer wrote:What do you mean they do really well with biglaw?

That objectively is false.

See https://www.lstreports.com/schools/howard/jobs/

Less than 50% of Howard grads are getting long-term, legal jobs. You have more than a coins flip chance at never working in law at all, let alone big law. Less than 20% of the class even sniffs biglaw, very generously defined.

At the t13, you have a better change of getting biglaw 60% from Cornell to 85% chance at Columbia and Duke. How is 85% chance of biglaw specifically at a t13 in any way comparable to a law school who doesn't have HALF THE CLASS EVER GET A LEGAL JOB?

So yeah.

Edit: and at my t13, I have not heard of a single case of a racist professor or student or any racist incident involving the law school. The URM community at mine is fantastic and I am glad I came here.


Thanks for that. What I was told was that big law firms actively recruit from Howard to hire diverse associates, and that they are more likely to top 15% of a class from Howard, than dig into the bottom half of T-14 schools (HSY excluded). I also know many people who've graduated from Howard and are doing very well for themselves. Howard has a lower LSAT median, so of course there are some people who shouldn't be in law school...but I don't think that's to say there is a problem with how the school teaches.

I've talked to former students who are happy, and current students who love it. I'm obviously hesitant because of the numbers, but I have family that graduated from t-14 schools in the last few years, and watched their struggle.

So yeah.


I mean so you have a couple of anecdotes, but I am just pointing out the data. You are MORE likely to graduate from Howard law and NEVER work as a lawyer than work as a lawyer - in any job.

Further, I know people in the top 5% at Howard and all handful of them struggled to get biglaw, in which only 1 actually did.

It is actually much easier to get biglaw at median from a t13 than get biglaw even at top 15% at Howard.

I'm just letting you know, if you want biglaw, or even more than 50% chance OF EVER BEING A LAWYER, dont go to Howard. The data OVERWHELMINGLY proves this.

User avatar
TheBlueDevil
Posts: 44
Joined: Mon Jul 31, 2017 7:00 pm

Re: Howard?

Postby TheBlueDevil » Tue Nov 14, 2017 9:06 pm

Howard definitely does not come close to the T14 in terms of legal hiring. I believe that Yale technically has the lowest big law placement in the T14 (at 38.9%—still almost twice that of Howard), but obviously they're rather special. Setting Yale aside, the lowest in the T13 is Berkeley at 49.7%. And, within the T14, depending on how you define it, you have either Georgetown at 46.2% or Texas at 35.9%. And this doesn't even include highly prestigious and competitive jobs (federal clerkships, certain PI jobs, etc.). Berkeley, for instance, placed 11.8% into federal clerkships (compare with Howard's 1.5%). At the highest end of the T14, there's Columbia with 77.6% of the class entering big law, and another 4.9% entering federal clerkships. Setting placement into high end jobs aside (which, given the statistics, is sensible when talking about Howard), frankly the gap only widens. 21.3% of Howard graduates are totally unemployed, and only two thirds secured long-term, full-time work at all.

There's no getting around it, at US News rank #120, Howard is a TTT. And there's just no comparing TTTs to the T14. However, among TTTs, Howard does punch well above its weight. At #120, Howard is tied with DePaul (6.4% big law placement), Creighton (0.8%), Seattle (4.3%), Montana (0%), and St. Thomas (5.7%). So, when compared to its peers, Howard actually does quite well. Noting that four of the five schools tied with Howard are located in big cities (one in a major legal market), I can only imagine that Howard's unusually strong placement is due to its HBCU status. There are other schools that punch well above their weights too (Fordham, for instance).

So, insofar as you are deciding among TTTs, I think attending Howard is actually a good choice. But between a TTT and a T14—it's really no choice at all.

idilbeshir
Posts: 5
Joined: Sat Sep 02, 2017 2:11 pm

Re: Howard?

Postby idilbeshir » Tue Nov 14, 2017 9:17 pm

sparkytrainer wrote:
idilbeshir wrote:
sparkytrainer wrote:What do you mean they do really well with biglaw?

That objectively is false.

See https://www.lstreports.com/schools/howard/jobs/

Less than 50% of Howard grads are getting long-term, legal jobs. You have more than a coins flip chance at never working in law at all, let alone big law. Less than 20% of the class even sniffs biglaw, very generously defined.

At the t13, you have a better change of getting biglaw 60% from Cornell to 85% chance at Columbia and Duke. How is 85% chance of biglaw specifically at a t13 in any way comparable to a law school who doesn't have HALF THE CLASS EVER GET A LEGAL JOB?

So yeah.

Edit: and at my t13, I have not heard of a single case of a racist professor or student or any racist incident involving the law school. The URM community at mine is fantastic and I am glad I came here.


Thanks for that. What I was told was that big law firms actively recruit from Howard to hire diverse associates, and that they are more likely to top 15% of a class from Howard, than dig into the bottom half of T-14 schools (HSY excluded). I also know many people who've graduated from Howard and are doing very well for themselves. Howard has a lower LSAT median, so of course there are some people who shouldn't be in law school...but I don't think that's to say there is a problem with how the school teaches.

I've talked to former students who are happy, and current students who love it. I'm obviously hesitant because of the numbers, but I have family that graduated from t-14 schools in the last few years, and watched their struggle.

So yeah.


I mean so you have a couple of anecdotes, but I am just pointing out the data. You are MORE likely to graduate from Howard law and NEVER work as a lawyer than work as a lawyer - in any job.

Further, I know people in the top 5% at Howard and all handful of them struggled to get biglaw, in which only 1 actually did.

It is actually much easier to get biglaw at median from a t13 than get biglaw even at top 15% at Howard.

I'm just letting you know, if you want biglaw, or even more than 50% chance OF EVER BEING A LAWYER, dont go to Howard. The data OVERWHELMINGLY proves this.



Thank you! Genuinely appreciate it.

idilbeshir
Posts: 5
Joined: Sat Sep 02, 2017 2:11 pm

Re: Howard?

Postby idilbeshir » Tue Nov 14, 2017 9:22 pm

TheBlueDevil wrote:Howard definitely does not come close to the T14 in terms of legal hiring. I believe that Yale technically has the lowest big law placement in the T14 (at 38.9%—still almost twice that of Howard), but obviously they're rather special. Setting Yale aside, the lowest in the T13 is Berkeley at 49.7%. And, within the T14, depending on how you define it, you have either Georgetown at 46.2% or Texas at 35.9%. And this doesn't even include highly prestigious and competitive jobs (federal clerkships, certain PI jobs, etc.). Berkeley, for instance, placed 11.8% into federal clerkships (compare with Howard's 1.5%). At the highest end of the T14, there's Columbia with 77.6% of the class entering big law, and another 4.9% entering federal clerkships. Setting placement into high end jobs aside (which, given the statistics, is sensible when talking about Howard), frankly the gap only widens. 21.3% of Howard graduates are totally unemployed, and only two thirds secured long-term, full-time work at all.

There's no getting around it, at US News rank #120, Howard is a TTT. And there's just no comparing TTTs to the T14. However, among TTTs, Howard does punch well above its weight. At #120, Howard is tied with DePaul (6.4% big law placement), Creighton (0.8%), Seattle (4.3%), Montana (0%), and St. Thomas (5.7%). So, when compared to its peers, Howard actually does quite well. Noting that four of the five schools tied with Howard are located in big cities (one in a major legal market), I can only imagine that Howard's unusually strong placement is due to its HBCU status. There are other schools that punch well above their weights too (Fordham, for instance).

So, insofar as you are deciding among TTTs, I think attending Howard is actually a good choice. But between a TTT and a T14—it's really no choice at all.


Thank you! Appreciate your insight.

Articles like this one just make it so tempting...https://www.law.com/americanlawyer/almID/1202721057038

But I get it.

BigZuck
Posts: 11719
Joined: Tue Sep 04, 2012 9:53 am

Re: Howard?

Postby BigZuck » Tue Nov 14, 2017 10:38 pm

A URM at Harvard or Chicago or Michigan or Georgetown, etc. is way more likely to get hired at a big law firm than a URM at Howard. Just think about it.

User avatar
Cogburn1984
Posts: 29
Joined: Tue Sep 13, 2016 3:00 pm

Re: Howard?

Postby Cogburn1984 » Wed Nov 15, 2017 2:56 pm

idilbeshir wrote:Hi everyone.

Wondering what the general thoughts are on Howard? I've spoken to a few black lawyers who recommended I apply there because big law firms recruit many students from there annually (more so than some T-14's, and stats support this).

I've also heard awful things about being a minority at many T-14 schools, and law school seems stressful enough without having to worry about racist profs/students.

Would love any and all feedback.

Thanks!


These lawyers wouldn't happen to have gone to Howard, would they? If so, I'd probably be skeptical of anything they say about how great their Alma matter is. I work with a lot of lawyers who swear to me that American is a great school for DC firms.




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