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Do NOT choose Penn Law

Posted: Wed Sep 27, 2017 5:44 pm
by pennlawfor2020?
Penn Law does not support minorities.


At other law schools I interviewed at, the minority students told me that they had so much support from the administration. For example, the administration would meet the students and ask if there was anything they could do to help. And that it was not just words, there were actions as well.

At Penn Law, that is not the case. The school says they are willing to help (during the initial meeting they have with all of the affinity groups), but they do not help.

The greatest example of this is Professor Amy Wax. She says and writes things that are truly racist (there is no doubt about this) and just plain homophobic. It's not about her being conservative. There are many conservatives out there, and many conservative professors, but they aren't racist.

And there were even incidents in her classroom with minority students. Yet, they allow her to keep teaching 1Ls, the most important year of law school. No one is advocating for her to be fired, people just want her removed from the mandatory 1L schedule. However, the administration is still willing to allow students to be traumatized by her. If you go to Penn, there is a 33% chance you'll be taught by here. Don't roll the dice.

The administration will half-heartedly try to fix the problem. At least starting this year, they are having a counselor come to the school part-time. But they won't address the root cause.

Second, today, Heather Mac Donald came to speak at the law school. The school bent over backwards to accomodate her stay. There was security at the entrance, they closed one entrance, they blocked students from going to see faculty offices by the talk. This was heart breaking to see.

To top it off, FedSoc made people RSVP to the event, but some students, who had RSVP'ed, were turned away.

Third, Penn Law touts "collegiality" as a way for people to say really offensive things, in the name of "academic freedom."

There are many other reasons not to consider Penn Law other than the problems with race (which is applicable to non-minorities too):
1. Not many student spaces
- Most of the spaces in the law school are taken up by various offices, classrooms, etc. If you want to sit down in some place other than the library, you are limited to a few spaces.
- The administration will periodically close down those few spaces for events and for renovation. And they'll do it at the most inopportune times, like around finals. And there is never any notice.

2. The administration seems not to care. Truly, it seems like they are playing "law school."
- The entire year, even the winter, it is freezing in all of the classrooms. Even the guys are cold.
- One time last year, it was around 40-50 degrees outside, and one of the classrooms was 60 degrees.
- When SEPTA went on strike, we did not receive an email from the administration until the THIRD day of the strike about possible transportation options. And they had the audacity to start out by saying, "It's day TWO of the strike..."

3. Heavy casebooks? Suffer from back pain by lugging your books back and forth from home to school for the first couple of weeks of school!
- The administration will not give out lockers until a few weeks in, so the 1Ls have to suffer with carrying their books. All other schools I know of do not do this.
- The administration lied last year and said that some of the 2Ls were using the lockers for OCI, which is why they couldn't provide them for us for the first week of schools. Spoke to the 2Ls, turned out to be false. OCI even ended earlier than when school began.

4. Unprofessionalism.
- Many broken links on the Penn Law page. Many spelling errors.
- The school, including the Dean of Student Affairs, Registrar, and CP&P, will reply all to sensitive emails, or will accidentally include the "all students" email list, so that everyone in the school knows your business.
- CSR Presidents communicate from their gmail account, which just seems weird to me.
- The Registrar, though, is by far the worse. You won't know about your classes for the next year until close to OCI. Because you sign up in the summer, and they have not finalized their list of classes yet, you can't see the grade distributions, unless you're in Philly. What are you doing the entire year??

5. Facilities
- Rats. Rats. Rats. One interrupted our class, so you know it's a problem when a rat decides to venture out among 100 students in broad daylight.
- Roaches.
- Peeling Paint everywhere
- Leaking Roof. By the main entrance of the school, every time it rains, a part of the roof leaks. All they do is put a few buckets to catch the water, but they haven't attempted to fix the main problem. Then they paint over the messed up roof when it's time for parents and partners day.
- Blinking lights in many of the classrooms. In Fitts, there is a light that goes on and off continuously. Seems petty, but when sitting in Fitts for an hour, you start to develop a headache. This has been an issue since ASW.
- Some of the desks in the classroom have broken outlets. So your computer will shut down while in class, and not a thing you can do about it. Worse yet, you're taking finals, and can't get a comfortable seat.

6. Where is the money going to? Seriously, a lot of the equipment and rooms in that school are sponsored by alumni.
- Chairs in the library were very disgusting and uncomfortable for years, they finally just replaced some of them, but not all.
- When there are mandatory lectures during lunch, they will provide a bagged lunch, but say bring your own beverage.
- Transcripts, whether official or unofficial, cost 10.00. So if you're applying to 50 internships, the inadequate registrar's office profits 500.00.
- Even during informal orientation, you had to spend money to participate in those events. For some events, the school was like, go out and explore Philly! Go buy food at a food truck you don't have.
- Every school campus I've been to has an around the clock shuttle. Penn's starts at 5:00, even though it's a big campus.

7. Disability Access.
- If you have a disability where you can't take any stairs, good luck getting around. For a good portion of last year, the elevators were broken by Gittis. Plus, to access different parts of the building, you have to take different elevators. So it makes it difficult to get around.

8. Housing
- Penn will not help you with housing. Last year, there was a shooting over by the 52nd street station. Two police offers were shot, one person was killed. Penn Safety did not inform us of this incident until the next morning. It would have been good to know because the guy was running from 52nd street all the way to 47th. The school knows students live over that area. Otherwise, why would you have the Penn Bus go all the way to 48th street. And even if it was logical to conclude students don't live there, it's a major subway stop.
Story came out where Penn Safety said they advised students to not live west of Farragut Street (45th Street). But then why does the bus go to 48th street? Why was this never mentioned? That story was the first time anyone heard about that from the administration.


When picking a school, be aware of this. Ask questions. Figure out when people are bs'ing you. People will say all the great things about the school, but will never mention the bad, even when it's a one on one conversation.

Obviously, there are positives to Penn. But maybe the above negatives will be helpful in evaluating your decisions.

Re: Do NOT choose Penn Law

Posted: Wed Sep 27, 2017 6:21 pm
by Hi-So - ArshavinFan
I dont know how accurate your recollection is other than undisputed facts (im not saying i dont believe you, but your side, their side, and the truth). That being said, Penn is known to be the second or 3rd most conservative school of the T14/13

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/th ... w-schools/

So if any of what you said is true regarding their attitudes/behaviors - I wouldn't find it surprising.

Re: Do NOT choose Penn Law

Posted: Wed Sep 27, 2017 7:11 pm
by pennlawfor2020?
What specifically are the "disputed facts?" Everything below is undisputed, and I have emails/pictures to prove most of it. You can also look up newspaper articles re Amy Wax and the shooting. You can look on Penn Law's website to see the broken links and spelling errors. You can walk into the building and see the leaking roof. You can talk to people at Penn Law about the security in the building (police, men in suits, etc.). You'll probably see an article about that in the DP tomorrow anyway. You can walk into the building and feel the cold.

If you want evidence for one of the things I said, please let me know and I'll try to provide it.

The only thing you can say is a "disputed fact," is "Penn Law does not support minorities." But I used examples to try to support that. I'm sure they support minorities to some degree. I just didn't think it was necessary to qualify my statement.

Re: Do NOT choose Penn Law

Posted: Wed Sep 27, 2017 8:29 pm
by da.goat
ok, first off - I'm pretty sure I know who you are, and know that you are one of the most negative, quick-to-complain people I have ever met. I literally made an account just to correct all your ridiculous complaints.

First, minority experience at Penn:
I am a minority student at Penn Law. I have absolutely not had the same experience. Is Amy Wax a terrible person? YES, she is. That being said, I had her for civpro and, though I did feel uncomfortable at times in her class, I would not have traded her for another teacher. She is an amazing teacher, and I would rather be taught WELL by a problematic person than just have a so-so learning experience from the nicest professor alive.

Does Heather Mac Donald also suck? Yes, she does. But if want to you live in a bubble and never see points of view that you find deeply troubling, I don't think any university anywhere is for you. Also, the things that were closed off were only closed for an hour at most. Was anything really that urgent?

Student Spaces:
There are plenty of spaces within the law school to do work (Golkin cafe area, the amazing library, journal offices, the goat, the clock, etc.) Beyond that, it's healthy to get outside the law school and do work at Wharton, the bookstore, one of the million cafes nearby, etc. I'm getting that you would like to spend your law school experience in one building that shares only your views.

The administration:
Sorry you had to bring a sweater to class? and how would they have responded to the transportation strike any differently?

Lockers:
Yes, you may have to wait 2-3 weeks before getting a locker. Agreed, this sucks. But the 2Ls genuinely are using them for OCI (even after the on-campus part ends) - when you're getting ready for/going on a number of callbacks (many of which you get because you go to penn and have the awesome alumni network), cleaning out a locker is not a first priority. Would you rather job placement gets put on the back burner just so you can avoid a workout?

Unprofessionalism:
Sure, people screw up. I've been very annoyed by some of the gaffes made. However, none of those emails were "sensitive". And you know about your classes in early July, a month before OCI. Not a huge deal - actually, it gives you time to have been at your 1L summer job and get a better sense of what classes you would like to take/are interested in.

Facilities:
Penn is in Philly. A big, dirty city. I'm not sure where you grew up, but pests do exist. It is also a very old law school (which has lots of nice aspects). I was in the class that the "rat" (they are all mice, sorry) wandered into - it poked its nose out and ran away. I've seen a total of 2 mice, 1 roach. Sure they exist. But I'm not going to a worse school because I'm scared of the potential that roaches exist.
Also, LOL at "can't get a comfortable seat during finals." How fragile is your butt? it's finals. NO ONE feels comfortable.

Where is the money?
UNOFFICIAL TRANSCRIPTS ARE FREE. FREE. Idk wtf you spent your money on - but they are free. The lunch lectures are also *not* mandatory. But if you go, you get free food and good advice (oh poor you that you had to bring the free water bottle Lexis gave you)

Disability Access:
one of the career services counselors (sweetest woman alive) is wheelchair-bound. Many of the front desk people use canes. Penn clearly is aware that they have disabled individuals working there every day.

Housing:
Again, did you not know that Penn is in Philly? Did you expect there to be no crime? Yes, Penn advises you not to live west of 40th (the border of campus). The bus goes to 48th street because, even though Penn advises you not to live that far out, they still support you if you choose to do so for whatever reason. They have a whole housing presentation during ASW, and send out additional housing information after that. If you're so freaked out by the CRIME in the BIG CITY, live in the shitty grad dorms 2 steps from the law school.

Overall, if you are the person I'm pretty sure you are, you would have a litany of complaints no matter what school you went to. But just because you apparently grew up somewhere with no crime, no pests, lots of room, and no people who disagree with your views does not mean that that's Penn's fault. Pretty sure it's on you.

Side note - I do complain about a lot of things at Penn. But that's because sometimes it feels nice to complain when stressed. I'm extremely liberal but find Penn to be a great, welcoming place where ideas (yes, even shitty ones) are welcomed.

Re: Do NOT choose Penn Law

Posted: Fri Sep 29, 2017 12:10 am
by akane89
Mod edit: deleted and banned

Re: Do NOT choose Penn Law

Posted: Fri Sep 29, 2017 1:44 am
by KENYADIGG1T
da.goat wrote:ok, first off - I'm pretty sure I know who you are, and know that you are one of the most negative, quick-to-complain people I have ever met. I literally made an account just to correct all your ridiculous complaints.

First, minority experience at Penn:
I am a minority student at Penn Law. I have absolutely not had the same experience. Is Amy Wax a terrible person? YES, she is. That being said, I had her for civpro and, though I did feel uncomfortable at times in her class, I would not have traded her for another teacher. She is an amazing teacher, and I would rather be taught WELL by a problematic person than just have a so-so learning experience from the nicest professor alive.

Does Heather Mac Donald also suck? Yes, she does. But if want to you live in a bubble and never see points of view that you find deeply troubling, I don't think any university anywhere is for you. Also, the things that were closed off were only closed for an hour at most. Was anything really that urgent?

Student Spaces:
There are plenty of spaces within the law school to do work (Golkin cafe area, the amazing library, journal offices, the goat, the clock, etc.) Beyond that, it's healthy to get outside the law school and do work at Wharton, the bookstore, one of the million cafes nearby, etc. I'm getting that you would like to spend your law school experience in one building that shares only your views.

The administration:
Sorry you had to bring a sweater to class? and how would they have responded to the transportation strike any differently?

Lockers:
Yes, you may have to wait 2-3 weeks before getting a locker. Agreed, this sucks. But the 2Ls genuinely are using them for OCI (even after the on-campus part ends) - when you're getting ready for/going on a number of callbacks (many of which you get because you go to penn and have the awesome alumni network), cleaning out a locker is not a first priority. Would you rather job placement gets put on the back burner just so you can avoid a workout?

Unprofessionalism:
Sure, people screw up. I've been very annoyed by some of the gaffes made. However, none of those emails were "sensitive". And you know about your classes in early July, a month before OCI. Not a huge deal - actually, it gives you time to have been at your 1L summer job and get a better sense of what classes you would like to take/are interested in.

Facilities:
Penn is in Philly. A big, dirty city. I'm not sure where you grew up, but pests do exist. It is also a very old law school (which has lots of nice aspects). I was in the class that the "rat" (they are all mice, sorry) wandered into - it poked its nose out and ran away. I've seen a total of 2 mice, 1 roach. Sure they exist. But I'm not going to a worse school because I'm scared of the potential that roaches exist.
Also, LOL at "can't get a comfortable seat during finals." How fragile is your butt? it's finals. NO ONE feels comfortable.

Where is the money?
UNOFFICIAL TRANSCRIPTS ARE FREE. FREE. Idk wtf you spent your money on - but they are free. The lunch lectures are also *not* mandatory. But if you go, you get free food and good advice (oh poor you that you had to bring the free water bottle Lexis gave you)

Disability Access:
one of the career services counselors (sweetest woman alive) is wheelchair-bound. Many of the front desk people use canes. Penn clearly is aware that they have disabled individuals working there every day.

Housing:
Again, did you not know that Penn is in Philly? Did you expect there to be no crime? Yes, Penn advises you not to live west of 40th (the border of campus). The bus goes to 48th street because, even though Penn advises you not to live that far out, they still support you if you choose to do so for whatever reason. They have a whole housing presentation during ASW, and send out additional housing information after that. If you're so freaked out by the CRIME in the BIG CITY, live in the shitty grad dorms 2 steps from the law school.

Overall, if you are the person I'm pretty sure you are, you would have a litany of complaints no matter what school you went to. But just because you apparently grew up somewhere with no crime, no pests, lots of room, and no people who disagree with your views does not mean that that's Penn's fault. Pretty sure it's on you.

Side note - I do complain about a lot of things at Penn. But that's because sometimes it feels nice to complain when stressed. I'm extremely liberal but find Penn to be a great, welcoming place where ideas (yes, even shitty ones) are welcomed.


I really don't know if I have a mug big enough for all this tea

Re: Do NOT choose Penn Law

Posted: Fri Sep 29, 2017 10:22 am
by SkinnyFat
This is why Trump won.

Re: Do NOT choose Penn Law

Posted: Fri Sep 29, 2017 10:37 am
by Kummel
da.goat wrote:UNOFFICIAL TRANSCRIPTS ARE FREE. FREE. Idk wtf you spent your money on - but they are free. The lunch lectures are also *not* mandatory. But if you go, you get free food and good advice (oh poor you that you had to bring the free water bottle Lexis gave you)


Do you mean official transcripts? Cause there is nothing remotely interesting about having free unofficial transcripts. Also official transcripts being free is pretty norm now.

Re: Do NOT choose Penn Law

Posted: Fri Sep 29, 2017 11:14 am
by MarkinKansasCity
Kummel wrote:
da.goat wrote:UNOFFICIAL TRANSCRIPTS ARE FREE. FREE. Idk wtf you spent your money on - but they are free. The lunch lectures are also *not* mandatory. But if you go, you get free food and good advice (oh poor you that you had to bring the free water bottle Lexis gave you)


Do you mean official transcripts? Cause there is nothing remotely interesting about having free unofficial transcripts. Also official transcripts being free is pretty norm now.


He was responding to this:

pennlawfor2020? wrote:6. Where is the money going to?

- Transcripts, whether official or unofficial, cost 10.00. So if you're applying to 50 internships, the inadequate registrar's office profits 500.00.

Re: Do NOT choose Penn Law

Posted: Fri Sep 29, 2017 12:05 pm
by Kummel
MarkinKansasCity wrote:
Kummel wrote:
da.goat wrote:UNOFFICIAL TRANSCRIPTS ARE FREE. FREE. Idk wtf you spent your money on - but they are free. The lunch lectures are also *not* mandatory. But if you go, you get free food and good advice (oh poor you that you had to bring the free water bottle Lexis gave you)


Do you mean official transcripts? Cause there is nothing remotely interesting about having free unofficial transcripts. Also official transcripts being free is pretty norm now.


He was responding to this:

pennlawfor2020? wrote:6. Where is the money going to?

- Transcripts, whether official or unofficial, cost 10.00. So if you're applying to 50 internships, the inadequate registrar's office profits 500.00.


wow penn sucks

Re: Do NOT choose Penn Law

Posted: Fri Sep 29, 2017 12:11 pm
by MarkinKansasCity
Kummel wrote:
MarkinKansasCity wrote:
Kummel wrote:
da.goat wrote:UNOFFICIAL TRANSCRIPTS ARE FREE. FREE. Idk wtf you spent your money on - but they are free. The lunch lectures are also *not* mandatory. But if you go, you get free food and good advice (oh poor you that you had to bring the free water bottle Lexis gave you)


Do you mean official transcripts? Cause there is nothing remotely interesting about having free unofficial transcripts. Also official transcripts being free is pretty norm now.


He was responding to this:

pennlawfor2020? wrote:6. Where is the money going to?

- Transcripts, whether official or unofficial, cost 10.00. So if you're applying to 50 internships, the inadequate registrar's office profits 500.00.


wow penn sucks


da.goat wrote:I am a minority student at Penn Law.

UNOFFICIAL TRANSCRIPTS ARE FREE. FREE. Idk wtf you spent your money on - but they are free.

Re: Do NOT choose Penn Law

Posted: Fri Sep 29, 2017 5:34 pm
by Lalalsat96
Although I really enjoyed reading that counterargument to OP, I will say this did dissuade me from applying to Penn i am BIG proponent of engaging with those who have opposing views but having a significant chance of being taught by a racist is where I personally draw the line. I am actually pretty liberterian politically but I am also Black and avoiding a professor who is racist is a much stronger reason for not attending to me than simply saying " i dont want to be taught by a conservative or someone who disagrees with me." If OP is in fact correct that this individual is in fact a racist I will happily not be attending all while side-eyeing the university for employing such a person, scholar or otherwise.

Racist is a strong term so let's not treat it lightly as an invalid reason to not want to be at a school.

Re: Do NOT choose Penn Law

Posted: Fri Sep 29, 2017 7:32 pm
by landshoes
There are also a lot of schools where you can be taught by people who are good teachers and who don't make the classroom a shitty, uncomfortable place

Just sayin'

Re: Do NOT choose Penn Law

Posted: Sat Oct 07, 2017 5:04 pm
by pennlawfor2020?
da.goat wrote:ok, first off - I'm pretty sure I know who you are, and know that you are one of the most negative, quick-to-complain people I have ever met. I literally made an account just to correct all your ridiculous complaints.

First, minority experience at Penn:
I am a minority student at Penn Law. I have absolutely not had the same experience. Is Amy Wax a terrible person? YES, she is. That being said, I had her for civpro and, though I did feel uncomfortable at times in her class, I would not have traded her for another teacher. She is an amazing teacher, and I would rather be taught WELL by a problematic person than just have a so-so learning experience from the nicest professor alive.

Does Heather Mac Donald also suck? Yes, she does. But if want to you live in a bubble and never see points of view that you find deeply troubling, I don't think any university anywhere is for you. Also, the things that were closed off were only closed for an hour at most. Was anything really that urgent?

Student Spaces:
There are plenty of spaces within the law school to do work (Golkin cafe area, the amazing library, journal offices, the goat, the clock, etc.) Beyond that, it's healthy to get outside the law school and do work at Wharton, the bookstore, one of the million cafes nearby, etc. I'm getting that you would like to spend your law school experience in one building that shares only your views.

The administration:
Sorry you had to bring a sweater to class? and how would they have responded to the transportation strike any differently?

Lockers:
Yes, you may have to wait 2-3 weeks before getting a locker. Agreed, this sucks. But the 2Ls genuinely are using them for OCI (even after the on-campus part ends) - when you're getting ready for/going on a number of callbacks (many of which you get because you go to penn and have the awesome alumni network), cleaning out a locker is not a first priority. Would you rather job placement gets put on the back burner just so you can avoid a workout?

Unprofessionalism:
Sure, people screw up. I've been very annoyed by some of the gaffes made. However, none of those emails were "sensitive". And you know about your classes in early July, a month before OCI. Not a huge deal - actually, it gives you time to have been at your 1L summer job and get a better sense of what classes you would like to take/are interested in.

Facilities:
Penn is in Philly. A big, dirty city. I'm not sure where you grew up, but pests do exist. It is also a very old law school (which has lots of nice aspects). I was in the class that the "rat" (they are all mice, sorry) wandered into - it poked its nose out and ran away. I've seen a total of 2 mice, 1 roach. Sure they exist. But I'm not going to a worse school because I'm scared of the potential that roaches exist.
Also, LOL at "can't get a comfortable seat during finals." How fragile is your butt? it's finals. NO ONE feels comfortable.

Where is the money?
UNOFFICIAL TRANSCRIPTS ARE FREE. FREE. Idk wtf you spent your money on - but they are free. The lunch lectures are also *not* mandatory. But if you go, you get free food and good advice (oh poor you that you had to bring the free water bottle Lexis gave you)

Disability Access:
one of the career services counselors (sweetest woman alive) is wheelchair-bound. Many of the front desk people use canes. Penn clearly is aware that they have disabled individuals working there every day.

Housing:
Again, did you not know that Penn is in Philly? Did you expect there to be no crime? Yes, Penn advises you not to live west of 40th (the border of campus). The bus goes to 48th street because, even though Penn advises you not to live that far out, they still support you if you choose to do so for whatever reason. They have a whole housing presentation during ASW, and send out additional housing information after that. If you're so freaked out by the CRIME in the BIG CITY, live in the shitty grad dorms 2 steps from the law school.

Overall, if you are the person I'm pretty sure you are, you would have a litany of complaints no matter what school you went to. But just because you apparently grew up somewhere with no crime, no pests, lots of room, and no people who disagree with your views does not mean that that's Penn's fault. Pretty sure it's on you.

Side note - I do complain about a lot of things at Penn. But that's because sometimes it feels nice to complain when stressed. I'm extremely liberal but find Penn to be a great, welcoming place where ideas (yes, even shitty ones) are welcomed.



I doubt you know who I am. Because if you did, you would know that I really could care less about what you think about me. But if you would like to have a further conversation about my personality traits or to assassinate my character, you are more than welcome to approach me in public, instead of kee-keeing with your friends. Until then, bye. :roll:

Now, onto what is important.

As for the 0Ls, I just wanted to show you the other side of the law school - which, since my last post, has been experiencing an increasing amount of tension. I think it is horrible that certain people act as salespeople without commissions to trick you into coming to a school so that you'll be miserable together. OR maybe it's just because they don't want the rankings of Penn to change, since it will personally impact them.

I'm of the mind that you should know all aspects of a school before you make a choice and people should not lie straight to your face. TLS shows you the "good" side, I'm just giving you the other side. Take it or leave it. I have no skin in the game.

Now, for Mr. X's line-by-line "correction" of my points. I'd say something about Mr. X needing to take a Trial Ad class, but that may be a little too far. We're all still learning. So I'll say this instead:

If you can see, most of it is not saying my points are not true, but just saying why what I pointed out is not bad. I don't know, I don't want to be sitting in a freezing cold classroom in the middle of winter even with a coat on, but maybe that's just me. As well as to Mr. X's point that there are two people with disabilities working in the law school (which there are), doesn't really show how a 1L, who has to travel from classroom to (classroom, event, locker) almost every hour, can deal with the layout of the law school.

And Amy Wax's rants don't impact every group the same. She does speak about some groups differently than others, so some minorities (or non-URMs) may be fine with that. If so, ignore my post. But apparently, my not wanting to be taught by a racist means that I unilaterally don't want to be taught my professors with different views than I have. Okay. There are civ pro professors out there who aren't the "nicest people alive," but who are amazing teachers and happen to not be racist.

Also, anyone from any school can make their own unofficial transcript for free using Word. But I'll leave you all with this: https://www.law.upenn.edu/live/files/26 ... st-formpdf.

Re: Do NOT choose Penn Law

Posted: Sat Oct 07, 2017 6:48 pm
by KENYADIGG1T
pennlawfor2020? wrote:
da.goat wrote:ok, first off - I'm pretty sure I know who you are, and know that you are one of the most negative, quick-to-complain people I have ever met. I literally made an account just to correct all your ridiculous complaints.

First, minority experience at Penn:
I am a minority student at Penn Law. I have absolutely not had the same experience. Is Amy Wax a terrible person? YES, she is. That being said, I had her for civpro and, though I did feel uncomfortable at times in her class, I would not have traded her for another teacher. She is an amazing teacher, and I would rather be taught WELL by a problematic person than just have a so-so learning experience from the nicest professor alive.

Does Heather Mac Donald also suck? Yes, she does. But if want to you live in a bubble and never see points of view that you find deeply troubling, I don't think any university anywhere is for you. Also, the things that were closed off were only closed for an hour at most. Was anything really that urgent?

Student Spaces:
There are plenty of spaces within the law school to do work (Golkin cafe area, the amazing library, journal offices, the goat, the clock, etc.) Beyond that, it's healthy to get outside the law school and do work at Wharton, the bookstore, one of the million cafes nearby, etc. I'm getting that you would like to spend your law school experience in one building that shares only your views.

The administration:
Sorry you had to bring a sweater to class? and how would they have responded to the transportation strike any differently?

Lockers:
Yes, you may have to wait 2-3 weeks before getting a locker. Agreed, this sucks. But the 2Ls genuinely are using them for OCI (even after the on-campus part ends) - when you're getting ready for/going on a number of callbacks (many of which you get because you go to penn and have the awesome alumni network), cleaning out a locker is not a first priority. Would you rather job placement gets put on the back burner just so you can avoid a workout?

Unprofessionalism:
Sure, people screw up. I've been very annoyed by some of the gaffes made. However, none of those emails were "sensitive". And you know about your classes in early July, a month before OCI. Not a huge deal - actually, it gives you time to have been at your 1L summer job and get a better sense of what classes you would like to take/are interested in.

Facilities:
Penn is in Philly. A big, dirty city. I'm not sure where you grew up, but pests do exist. It is also a very old law school (which has lots of nice aspects). I was in the class that the "rat" (they are all mice, sorry) wandered into - it poked its nose out and ran away. I've seen a total of 2 mice, 1 roach. Sure they exist. But I'm not going to a worse school because I'm scared of the potential that roaches exist.
Also, LOL at "can't get a comfortable seat during finals." How fragile is your butt? it's finals. NO ONE feels comfortable.

Where is the money?
UNOFFICIAL TRANSCRIPTS ARE FREE. FREE. Idk wtf you spent your money on - but they are free. The lunch lectures are also *not* mandatory. But if you go, you get free food and good advice (oh poor you that you had to bring the free water bottle Lexis gave you)

Disability Access:
one of the career services counselors (sweetest woman alive) is wheelchair-bound. Many of the front desk people use canes. Penn clearly is aware that they have disabled individuals working there every day.

Housing:
Again, did you not know that Penn is in Philly? Did you expect there to be no crime? Yes, Penn advises you not to live west of 40th (the border of campus). The bus goes to 48th street because, even though Penn advises you not to live that far out, they still support you if you choose to do so for whatever reason. They have a whole housing presentation during ASW, and send out additional housing information after that. If you're so freaked out by the CRIME in the BIG CITY, live in the shitty grad dorms 2 steps from the law school.

Overall, if you are the person I'm pretty sure you are, you would have a litany of complaints no matter what school you went to. But just because you apparently grew up somewhere with no crime, no pests, lots of room, and no people who disagree with your views does not mean that that's Penn's fault. Pretty sure it's on you.

Side note - I do complain about a lot of things at Penn. But that's because sometimes it feels nice to complain when stressed. I'm extremely liberal but find Penn to be a great, welcoming place where ideas (yes, even shitty ones) are welcomed.



I doubt you know who I am. Because if you did, you would know that I really could care less about what you think about me. But if you would like to have a further conversation about my personality traits or to assassinate my character, you are more than welcome to approach me in public, instead of kee-keeing with your friends. Until then, bye. :roll:

Now, onto what is important.

As for the 0Ls, I just wanted to show you the other side of the law school - which, since my last post, has been experiencing an increasing amount of tension. I think it is horrible that certain people act as salespeople without commissions to trick you into coming to a school so that you'll be miserable together. OR maybe it's just because they don't want the rankings of Penn to change, since it will personally impact them.

I'm of the mind that you should know all aspects of a school before you make a choice and people should not lie straight to your face. TLS shows you the "good" side, I'm just giving you the other side. Take it or leave it. I have no skin in the game.

Now, for Mr. X's line-by-line "correction" of my points. I'd say something about Mr. X needing to take a Trial Ad class, but that may be a little too far. We're all still learning. So I'll say this instead:

If you can see, most of it is not saying my points are not true, but just saying why what I pointed out is not bad. I don't know, I don't want to be sitting in a freezing cold classroom in the middle of winter even with a coat on, but maybe that's just me. As well as to Mr. X's point that there are two people with disabilities working in the law school (which there are), doesn't really show how a 1L, who has to travel from classroom to (classroom, event, locker) almost every hour, can deal with the layout of the law school.

And Amy Wax's rants don't impact every group the same. She does speak about some groups differently than others, so some minorities (or non-URMs) may be fine with that. If so, ignore my post. But apparently, my not wanting to be taught by a racist means that I unilaterally don't want to be taught my professors with different views than I have. Okay. There are civ pro professors out there who aren't the "nicest people alive," but who are amazing teachers and happen to not be racist.

Also, anyone from any school can make their own unofficial transcript for free using Word. But I'll leave you all with this: https://www.law.upenn.edu/live/files/26 ... st-formpdf.


#CashMeOusside

Re: Do NOT choose Penn Law

Posted: Sat Oct 07, 2017 7:30 pm
by da.goat
I'm now mostly just upset that the OP just assumed my gender (it's Ms. X, thanks). Way to perpetuate a system you claim to hate :roll:

Re: Do NOT choose Penn Law

Posted: Sat Oct 07, 2017 7:35 pm
by runinthefront
KENYADIGG1T wrote:#CashMeOusside

Are you serious? :roll:

Re: Do NOT choose Penn Law

Posted: Sat Oct 07, 2017 8:45 pm
by Lalalsat96
da.goat wrote:I'm now mostly just upset that the OP just assumed my gender (it's Ms. X, thanks). Way to perpetuate a system you claim to hate :roll:


Ok that was a crappy counter. Assuming a gender can be honest mistake is not the same as perpetuating a systematically and overtly racist system. Assuming a gender can be OP falling for particular gender constructs society has which is an issue ofc. Yet, that in no way perpetuates a systematically racist system (in legal education for this case), the one that OP is calling out while it may perpetuate constructs on gender or the idea that lawyers/law students are males (not statistically true). Albeit race and gender issues do intersect but a professor being racist is not one of those intersectionalities. I am really annoyed that you just tried to mock OP about calling out racism by saying she assumed your gender and that made you "upset." femininity typically isn't so fragile....

I have no dog in this fight and your first counter was good genuinely but unless you can counter that professor is not being a racist (which is unlikely since inherently an educator by their position alone already has privilege and seems to be exerting such power in an offensive manner to that point where she has racist rhetoric in class !?) then you dont have a valid rebuttal and really shouldnt say OP is wrong for being offended. Im offended reading about it. I really dont see how OP is wrong for saying dont go to a school that has a racist professor - unless OP is using the term incorrectly < Thats where an argument can be made since you both seem to know the professor and attend the school.

My 2 cents...

Re: Do NOT choose Penn Law

Posted: Sat Oct 07, 2017 8:48 pm
by pennlawfor2020?
da.goat wrote:I'm now mostly just upset that the OP just assumed my gender (it's Ms. X, thanks). Way to perpetuate a system you claim to hate :roll:


Mmm kay, Mr. X. Which system do I hate? Did I ever once say that women are treated badly at Penn Law? I did not because in my opinion, they are not. I am concerned with how minorities, whether women or men, are treated.

I did not make any assumption about your gender. Not once did I say he or she. I used a well-known, general term to refer to you. For your reading knowledge: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mister_X

But I admit, maybe I should have gone with the da.goat, or Mx. X instead to be more inclusive.

Also, not advocating for anything others are implying. I really just wanna have a conversation about my personality.

Re: Do NOT choose Penn Law

Posted: Sat Oct 07, 2017 9:44 pm
by KENYADIGG1T
runinthefront wrote:
KENYADIGG1T wrote:#CashMeOusside

Are you serious? :roll:


:roll:

Re: Do NOT choose Penn Law

Posted: Sat Oct 07, 2017 10:29 pm
by dabigchina
TBH most of the complaints (minus the apparently shitty building) can be applied to literally any law school. Incompetence is like a prerequisite for working in law school admin. IDK enough about Wax to really speak to that point though.

Also, does Penn make you pay 10 dollars to see your grade? Seems like you could just print out your grades and call that your unofficial transcript.

Re: Do NOT choose Penn Law

Posted: Sat Oct 07, 2017 11:47 pm
by Wakhancorridor
Wow, I go to Berkeley which is poor as shit and even they don't charge for unofficial transcripts (or official!)

Re: Do NOT choose Penn Law

Posted: Sun Oct 08, 2017 11:32 am
by andysimbi
OP, why don't you transfer somewhere else, if you really hate it that much?

Re: Do NOT choose Penn Law

Posted: Sun Oct 08, 2017 11:58 am
by nick417
pennlawfor2020? wrote:
da.goat wrote:ok, first off - I'm pretty sure I know who you are, and know that you are one of the most negative, quick-to-complain people I have ever met. I literally made an account just to correct all your ridiculous complaints.

First, minority experience at Penn:
I am a minority student at Penn Law. I have absolutely not had the same experience. Is Amy Wax a terrible person? YES, she is. That being said, I had her for civpro and, though I did feel uncomfortable at times in her class, I would not have traded her for another teacher. She is an amazing teacher, and I would rather be taught WELL by a problematic person than just have a so-so learning experience from the nicest professor alive.

Does Heather Mac Donald also suck? Yes, she does. But if want to you live in a bubble and never see points of view that you find deeply troubling, I don't think any university anywhere is for you. Also, the things that were closed off were only closed for an hour at most. Was anything really that urgent?

Student Spaces:
There are plenty of spaces within the law school to do work (Golkin cafe area, the amazing library, journal offices, the goat, the clock, etc.) Beyond that, it's healthy to get outside the law school and do work at Wharton, the bookstore, one of the million cafes nearby, etc. I'm getting that you would like to spend your law school experience in one building that shares only your views.

The administration:
Sorry you had to bring a sweater to class? and how would they have responded to the transportation strike any differently?

Lockers:
Yes, you may have to wait 2-3 weeks before getting a locker. Agreed, this sucks. But the 2Ls genuinely are using them for OCI (even after the on-campus part ends) - when you're getting ready for/going on a number of callbacks (many of which you get because you go to penn and have the awesome alumni network), cleaning out a locker is not a first priority. Would you rather job placement gets put on the back burner just so you can avoid a workout?

Unprofessionalism:
Sure, people screw up. I've been very annoyed by some of the gaffes made. However, none of those emails were "sensitive". And you know about your classes in early July, a month before OCI. Not a huge deal - actually, it gives you time to have been at your 1L summer job and get a better sense of what classes you would like to take/are interested in.

Facilities:
Penn is in Philly. A big, dirty city. I'm not sure where you grew up, but pests do exist. It is also a very old law school (which has lots of nice aspects). I was in the class that the "rat" (they are all mice, sorry) wandered into - it poked its nose out and ran away. I've seen a total of 2 mice, 1 roach. Sure they exist. But I'm not going to a worse school because I'm scared of the potential that roaches exist.
Also, LOL at "can't get a comfortable seat during finals." How fragile is your butt? it's finals. NO ONE feels comfortable.

Where is the money?
UNOFFICIAL TRANSCRIPTS ARE FREE. FREE. Idk wtf you spent your money on - but they are free. The lunch lectures are also *not* mandatory. But if you go, you get free food and good advice (oh poor you that you had to bring the free water bottle Lexis gave you)

Disability Access:
one of the career services counselors (sweetest woman alive) is wheelchair-bound. Many of the front desk people use canes. Penn clearly is aware that they have disabled individuals working there every day.

Housing:
Again, did you not know that Penn is in Philly? Did you expect there to be no crime? Yes, Penn advises you not to live west of 40th (the border of campus). The bus goes to 48th street because, even though Penn advises you not to live that far out, they still support you if you choose to do so for whatever reason. They have a whole housing presentation during ASW, and send out additional housing information after that. If you're so freaked out by the CRIME in the BIG CITY, live in the shitty grad dorms 2 steps from the law school.

Overall, if you are the person I'm pretty sure you are, you would have a litany of complaints no matter what school you went to. But just because you apparently grew up somewhere with no crime, no pests, lots of room, and no people who disagree with your views does not mean that that's Penn's fault. Pretty sure it's on you.

Side note - I do complain about a lot of things at Penn. But that's because sometimes it feels nice to complain when stressed. I'm extremely liberal but find Penn to be a great, welcoming place where ideas (yes, even shitty ones) are welcomed.



I doubt you know who I am. Because if you did, you would know that I really could care less about what you think about me. But if you would like to have a further conversation about my personality traits or to assassinate my character, you are more than welcome to approach me in public, instead of kee-keeing with your friends. Until then, bye. :roll:

Now, onto what is important.

As for the 0Ls, I just wanted to show you the other side of the law school - which, since my last post, has been experiencing an increasing amount of tension. I think it is horrible that certain people act as salespeople without commissions to trick you into coming to a school so that you'll be miserable together. OR maybe it's just because they don't want the rankings of Penn to change, since it will personally impact them.

I'm of the mind that you should know all aspects of a school before you make a choice and people should not lie straight to your face. TLS shows you the "good" side, I'm just giving you the other side. Take it or leave it. I have no skin in the game.

Now, for Mr. X's line-by-line "correction" of my points. I'd say something about Mr. X needing to take a Trial Ad class, but that may be a little too far. We're all still learning. So I'll say this instead:

If you can see, most of it is not saying my points are not true, but just saying why what I pointed out is not bad. I don't know, I don't want to be sitting in a freezing cold classroom in the middle of winter even with a coat on, but maybe that's just me. As well as to Mr. X's point that there are two people with disabilities working in the law school (which there are), doesn't really show how a 1L, who has to travel from classroom to (classroom, event, locker) almost every hour, can deal with the layout of the law school.

And Amy Wax's rants don't impact every group the same. She does speak about some groups differently than others, so some minorities (or non-URMs) may be fine with that. If so, ignore my post. But apparently, my not wanting to be taught by a racist means that I unilaterally don't want to be taught my professors with different views than I have. Okay. There are civ pro professors out there who aren't the "nicest people alive," but who are amazing teachers and happen to not be racist.

Also, anyone from any school can make their own unofficial transcript for free using Word. But I'll leave you all with this: https://www.law.upenn.edu/live/files/26 ... st-formpdf.


Hahaha, I don't care what you think of me, but I am going to respond with a 6 paragraph response.

Is there anything funnier than someone stating opinions and then calling them "undisputed facts." You sound like seasoned lawyer already. Penn must be teaching you something.

Re: Do NOT choose Penn Law

Posted: Thu Oct 19, 2017 12:54 pm
by greatspirit
Well damn. Penn is my top choice.

Good thing I'm not getting in! :?

But in all seriousness, I'm cross-referencing this with the experiences of two AA males who I know of at Penn.