2.9, 177 AA/Hispanic Gay

(BLS, URM status, non-traditional, GLBT)
theventriloquist
Posts: 154
Joined: Wed Apr 19, 2017 2:25 am

Re: 2.9, 177 AA/Hispanic Gay

Postby theventriloquist » Sat Apr 22, 2017 5:23 am

Mr_Chukes wrote:
theventriloquist wrote:Thanks a lot for that info! Thank you to you and everyone for all the help! I'll think about it. Honestly Harvard at sticker price is well worth it.

I took the LSAT a while ago, so I think it might expire, I'm going to check. Thank you all again!

God bless your soul. Thank you for taking the advice! Good Luck!


haha thank you! Thank you for everyone for explaning all my options and giving me such good advice!

CurvedSurface
Posts: 20
Joined: Sun Mar 22, 2015 9:21 pm

Re: 2.9, 177 AA/Hispanic Gay

Postby CurvedSurface » Sat Apr 22, 2017 10:16 am

Congrats on the LSAT score, OP. You fucking nailed it. I'm sorry that your parents were unsupportive of your getting your ADHD treated while being overly pushy on the med school front -- sounds like an awful combination. Kudos to you for getting yourself the right care and deciding what's right for you.

If you apply to law school, I agree that you should blanket the whole T20. At the low end of the T20, you'll get big money from WUSTL. But definitely see what happens in the middle and the top of the T20, too. As folks have said, you're going to have an unpredictable cycle.

Here's what I think has gotten lost in the discussion so far: Do you even want to go to law school? I know you have a fantastic LSAT, but as people on this site frequently point out, law can be a grueling profession, even with a no-cost/low-cost degree from a great school. We know you don't want to go to med school. But why law school? What are your goals? It's not worth going to law school if you don't want to be a lawyer (maybe except for Yale unicorns, but no one should be applying to law school banking on getting into YLS). Maybe you've thought all of this out already and you just haven't shared -- great, no problem. But if you haven't, think about it. Based on your posts, it seems like you need to do a lot more research yet. Going to law school is really a life-changing event that orients the remainder of your career. Yeah, you can leave practicing law later on, but you're still shaped by having spent three years getting a JD and likely some number of years practicing law after school.

My anecdote: Like you, I had a high LSAT and was debt-averse, though I had 3.7. I ended up taking big money at the lower T20. When I was applying to law school, though, I was one of those kids applying just so that I could get a JD and have an advanced degree. Before law school I worked for an elected official, and I wanted to keep doing that type of work post-law school, just with a better position and more pay. Going into law school with this goal made the experience a big struggle for me. That's because law school teaches you to be a lawyer. The culture is built around big firms where people go to practice law. The whole orientation is toward becoming a lawyer, and the biggest providers of lawyer jobs are law firms and DOJ/state AGs, where you're surrounded by lawyers. 95% of the alumni that you network with are lawyers who practice law. Law school is not about getting non-lawyer jobs. From a conventional standpoint, things have worked out very well for me: I got big law + clerkship in a desirable region. But it's not the goal I came in with, and I had to do a lot of soul-searching about whether these "good outcomes" would/will really make me happy.

Best of luck with your application cycle if you apply.

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MrJD2020
Posts: 277
Joined: Thu Jan 26, 2017 10:59 am

Re: 2.9, 177 AA/Hispanic Gay

Postby MrJD2020 » Sat Apr 22, 2017 2:27 pm

CurvedSurface wrote:Congrats on the LSAT score, OP. You fucking nailed it. I'm sorry that your parents were unsupportive of your getting your ADHD treated while being overly pushy on the med school front -- sounds like an awful combination. Kudos to you for getting yourself the right care and deciding what's right for you.

If you apply to law school, I agree that you should blanket the whole T20. At the low end of the T20, you'll get big money from WUSTL. But definitely see what happens in the middle and the top of the T20, too. As folks have said, you're going to have an unpredictable cycle.

Here's what I think has gotten lost in the discussion so far: Do you even want to go to law school? I know you have a fantastic LSAT, but as people on this site frequently point out, law can be a grueling profession, even with a no-cost/low-cost degree from a great school. We know you don't want to go to med school. But why law school? What are your goals? It's not worth going to law school if you don't want to be a lawyer (maybe except for Yale unicorns, but no one should be applying to law school banking on getting into YLS). Maybe you've thought all of this out already and you just haven't shared -- great, no problem. But if you haven't, think about it. Based on your posts, it seems like you need to do a lot more research yet. Going to law school is really a life-changing event that orients the remainder of your career. Yeah, you can leave practicing law later on, but you're still shaped by having spent three years getting a JD and likely some number of years practicing law after school.

My anecdote: Like you, I had a high LSAT and was debt-averse, though I had 3.7. I ended up taking big money at the lower T20. When I was applying to law school, though, I was one of those kids applying just so that I could get a JD and have an advanced degree. Before law school I worked for an elected official, and I wanted to keep doing that type of work post-law school, just with a better position and more pay. Going into law school with this goal made the experience a big struggle for me. That's because law school teaches you to be a lawyer. The culture is built around big firms where people go to practice law. The whole orientation is toward becoming a lawyer, and the biggest providers of lawyer jobs are law firms and DOJ/state AGs, where you're surrounded by lawyers. 95% of the alumni that you network with are lawyers who practice law. Law school is not about getting non-lawyer jobs. From a conventional standpoint, things have worked out very well for me: I got big law + clerkship in a desirable region. But it's not the goal I came in with, and I had to do a lot of soul-searching about whether these "good outcomes" would/will really make me happy.

Best of luck with your application cycle if you apply.



This is all great advice. I will only add one thing: DO APPLY. You can always defer after getting in. But it will be much harder to decide to apply later as life gets in the way, and as your relationships with the people you want recommendations from get stale. And, if you decide you do want it after missing this upcoming cycle, you will be very annoyed with yourself for losing a year because other people discouraged you. Be risk-averse enough to know that you need to explore what being a lawyer can be like BEFORE 1L begins. But don't be so risk averse that you don't even apply early this upcoming cycle. That often happens to people who get the above advice from too many people -- you start thinking that you shouldn't even apply. Don't let that happen.

If you can work at a V5 law firm before law school (SEO's 0L summer program the summer before classes start would be ideal if you're eligible for it), that could help you know before you actually start classes whether it's for you. Also, there are so many different types of law you can practice. For example, I have zero interest in litigation, but I think corporate M&A work is super interesting, but I also think internal compliance work in financial institutions (which I have experience in) is not so great. So I'm happy to go to law school because I've crossed off two types of law practice off the list of post-school opportunities and am going into school with a laser-like focus on being an M&A associate after school. So try to get some sort of exposure to more than one type of law/law practice, if possible.

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MrJD2020
Posts: 277
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Re: 2.9, 177 AA/Hispanic Gay

Postby MrJD2020 » Sat Apr 22, 2017 2:31 pm

Oh, also, be sure to indicate that you're LGBT somehow. It might not be easy to just randomly mention it in an essay if it's not relevant (I didn't), but if there's some extracurricular you participated in (or can get involved in now) that is LGBT-related, put it in the activities section of your resume so they know. I think most schools also explicitly ask - so check the box.

theventriloquist
Posts: 154
Joined: Wed Apr 19, 2017 2:25 am

Re: 2.9, 177 AA/Hispanic Gay

Postby theventriloquist » Tue May 02, 2017 7:39 pm

CurvedSurface wrote:Congrats on the LSAT score, OP. You fucking nailed it. I'm sorry that your parents were unsupportive of your getting your ADHD treated while being overly pushy on the med school front -- sounds like an awful combination. Kudos to you for getting yourself the right care and deciding what's right for you.

If you apply to law school, I agree that you should blanket the whole T20. At the low end of the T20, you'll get big money from WUSTL. But definitely see what happens in the middle and the top of the T20, too. As folks have said, you're going to have an unpredictable cycle.

Here's what I think has gotten lost in the discussion so far: Do you even want to go to law school? I know you have a fantastic LSAT, but as people on this site frequently point out, law can be a grueling profession, even with a no-cost/low-cost degree from a great school. We know you don't want to go to med school. But why law school? What are your goals? It's not worth going to law school if you don't want to be a lawyer (maybe except for Yale unicorns, but no one should be applying to law school banking on getting into YLS). Maybe you've thought all of this out already and you just haven't shared -- great, no problem. But if you haven't, think about it. Based on your posts, it seems like you need to do a lot more research yet. Going to law school is really a life-changing event that orients the remainder of your career. Yeah, you can leave practicing law later on, but you're still shaped by having spent three years getting a JD and likely some number of years practicing law after school.

My anecdote: Like you, I had a high LSAT and was debt-averse, though I had 3.7. I ended up taking big money at the lower T20. When I was applying to law school, though, I was one of those kids applying just so that I could get a JD and have an advanced degree. Before law school I worked for an elected official, and I wanted to keep doing that type of work post-law school, just with a better position and more pay. Going into law school with this goal made the experience a big struggle for me. That's because law school teaches you to be a lawyer. The culture is built around big firms where people go to practice law. The whole orientation is toward becoming a lawyer, and the biggest providers of lawyer jobs are law firms and DOJ/state AGs, where you're surrounded by lawyers. 95% of the alumni that you network with are lawyers who practice law. Law school is not about getting non-lawyer jobs. From a conventional standpoint, things have worked out very well for me: I got big law + clerkship in a desirable region. But it's not the goal I came in with, and I had to do a lot of soul-searching about whether these "good outcomes" would/will really make me happy.

Best of luck with your application cycle if you apply.


Hey thank you for all the advice. it was extremely helpful. I think a law carear would be good for me, because its involves a lot of the things I like to do (such as write and think).

I was also thinking of Finance. But after I learnt about that, I realized that finance involves a lot of personality and dealing with people. It depends a lot on connections, which I have difficulty develoing. And at this point, breaking into finance is very hard, but its easy to break into law as long as you have good grades. Business is very personality-driven, and I think that someone who gets nervous in public would have a difficult time. By contrast, such a person would be better off in law.

Of course, I could be wrong. I' going to look at some free law-related coruses in EdX, etc. to check out. I'll send out my applications this cycle. Again, thanks a lot!

theventriloquist
Posts: 154
Joined: Wed Apr 19, 2017 2:25 am

Re: 2.9, 177 AA/Hispanic Gay

Postby theventriloquist » Tue May 02, 2017 7:44 pm

MrJD2020 wrote:
CurvedSurface wrote:Congrats on the LSAT score, OP. You fucking nailed it. I'm sorry that your parents were unsupportive of your getting your ADHD treated while being overly pushy on the med school front -- sounds like an awful combination. Kudos to you for getting yourself the right care and deciding what's right for you.

If you apply to law school, I agree that you should blanket the whole T20. At the low end of the T20, you'll get big money from WUSTL. But definitely see what happens in the middle and the top of the T20, too. As folks have said, you're going to have an unpredictable cycle.

Here's what I think has gotten lost in the discussion so far: Do you even want to go to law school? I know you have a fantastic LSAT, but as people on this site frequently point out, law can be a grueling profession, even with a no-cost/low-cost degree from a great school. We know you don't want to go to med school. But why law school? What are your goals? It's not worth going to law school if you don't want to be a lawyer (maybe except for Yale unicorns, but no one should be applying to law school banking on getting into YLS). Maybe you've thought all of this out already and you just haven't shared -- great, no problem. But if you haven't, think about it. Based on your posts, it seems like you need to do a lot more research yet. Going to law school is really a life-changing event that orients the remainder of your career. Yeah, you can leave practicing law later on, but you're still shaped by having spent three years getting a JD and likely some number of years practicing law after school.

My anecdote: Like you, I had a high LSAT and was debt-averse, though I had 3.7. I ended up taking big money at the lower T20. When I was applying to law school, though, I was one of those kids applying just so that I could get a JD and have an advanced degree. Before law school I worked for an elected official, and I wanted to keep doing that type of work post-law school, just with a better position and more pay. Going into law school with this goal made the experience a big struggle for me. That's because law school teaches you to be a lawyer. The culture is built around big firms where people go to practice law. The whole orientation is toward becoming a lawyer, and the biggest providers of lawyer jobs are law firms and DOJ/state AGs, where you're surrounded by lawyers. 95% of the alumni that you network with are lawyers who practice law. Law school is not about getting non-lawyer jobs. From a conventional standpoint, things have worked out very well for me: I got big law + clerkship in a desirable region. But it's not the goal I came in with, and I had to do a lot of soul-searching about whether these "good outcomes" would/will really make me happy.

Best of luck with your application cycle if you apply.



This is all great advice. I will only add one thing: DO APPLY. You can always defer after getting in. But it will be much harder to decide to apply later as life gets in the way, and as your relationships with the people you want recommendations from get stale. And, if you decide you do want it after missing this upcoming cycle, you will be very annoyed with yourself for losing a year because other people discouraged you. Be risk-averse enough to know that you need to explore what being a lawyer can be like BEFORE 1L begins. But don't be so risk averse that you don't even apply early this upcoming cycle. That often happens to people who get the above advice from too many people -- you start thinking that you shouldn't even apply. Don't let that happen.

If you can work at a V5 law firm before law school (SEO's 0L summer program the summer before classes start would be ideal if you're eligible for it), that could help you know before you actually start classes whether it's for you. Also, there are so many different types of law you can practice. For example, I have zero interest in litigation, but I think corporate M&A work is super interesting, but I also think internal compliance work in financial institutions (which I have experience in) is not so great. So I'm happy to go to law school because I've crossed off two types of law practice off the list of post-school opportunities and am going into school with a laser-like focus on being an M&A associate after school. So try to get some sort of exposure to more than one type of law/law practice, if possible.


Thanks a lot for this advice. I too think that corporate law, M&A, and restructuring/finance is very interesting. I was looking at wachtell--not because I think I'd be able to get a job their, but becasue I wanted to read about the sort of work M&A does at the highest levels. I read some of the cases available online

I also have read supreme court cases (all are online), to see if I would be happy with reading such stuff all day long. So far, it does intereste me. Of course, actual law is much more boring, but I think that if such stuff intereste me, I would find law a worthy endeavor as well.

CurvedSurface
Posts: 20
Joined: Sun Mar 22, 2015 9:21 pm

Re: 2.9, 177 AA/Hispanic Gay

Postby CurvedSurface » Tue May 02, 2017 10:26 pm

theventriloquist wrote:
Hey thank you for all the advice. it was extremely helpful. I think a law carear would be good for me, because its involves a lot of the things I like to do (such as write and think).

I was also thinking of Finance. But after I learnt about that, I realized that finance involves a lot of personality and dealing with people. It depends a lot on connections, which I have difficulty develoing. And at this point, breaking into finance is very hard, but its easy to break into law as long as you have good grades. Business is very personality-driven, and I think that someone who gets nervous in public would have a difficult time. By contrast, such a person would be better off in law.

Of course, I could be wrong. I' going to look at some free law-related coruses in EdX, etc. to check out. I'll send out my applications this cycle. Again, thanks a lot!


theventriloquist wrote:
Thanks a lot for this advice. I too think that corporate law, M&A, and restructuring/finance is very interesting. I was looking at wachtell--not because I think I'd be able to get a job their, but becasue I wanted to read about the sort of work M&A does at the highest levels. I read some of the cases available online

I also have read supreme court cases (all are online), to see if I would be happy with reading such stuff all day long. So far, it does intereste me. Of course, actual law is much more boring, but I think that if such stuff intereste me, I would find law a worthy endeavor as well.


OP, you should decide to go to law school based on something more concrete than having found some Supreme Court cases interesting. Law tends to be very interesting: That's why it's in the news so often. But having fun thinking about the law is different from actually practicing law. Only go to law school if you want to become a practicing attorney (or have some other specific-to-you defensible plan that justifies the out-of-pocket and opportunity costs).

So, yes, cool that you're checking out law firm websites and reading court decisions. But try talking to some actual attorneys about the day-to-day of their careers. Read the threads on here about 'my actual day.' Do other things that acquaint you with the realities of what living out a career as a lawyer would be like.

Please don't just approach going to law school as an alternative to finance. If you're going to law school, be very intentional about it. Go because you want to be a lawyer. There are too many non-law school, non-finance options out there for you to feel constrained to these options.

Yes, you're right: some lawyers do a ton of reading and writing. But it all happens in a specific work context. It's not people just sitting around contemplating what the law should be. This is a service profession. Associates work for higher level associates and partners. All lawyers work for their clients. The work is driven by the clients' interests.

And getting a job or getting a client is very personality and connections driven. It's not just good grades and *zam* job. People work their networks to land interviews. If they don't have networks, they build them. And then you have to maintain your network, a never-ending task. During the interview, interviewers are looking for fit. Are you somebody they want to spend billing 2000 hours with each year? That's all about personality.

I'm not suggesting that you don't go to law school. But please just get informed first. It sounds like you want to do that, so my recommendation is to focus on doing it in a way that tells you whether you'll actually be happy dedicating three years of your life to law school and then an unknown but likely substantial number of years of your life to practicing law. Think hard about that before you get extremely invested in this process because then it's harder to pull back. I know it's tempting to not "waste" your great LSAT score, but if you don't think you're going to be happy going to work every day as a lawyer, don't go to law school.

theventriloquist
Posts: 154
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Re: 2.9, 177 AA/Hispanic Gay

Postby theventriloquist » Tue May 02, 2017 11:15 pm

CurvedSurface wrote:
theventriloquist wrote:
Hey thank you for all the advice. it was extremely helpful. I think a law carear would be good for me, because its involves a lot of the things I like to do (such as write and think).

I was also thinking of Finance. But after I learnt about that, I realized that finance involves a lot of personality and dealing with people. It depends a lot on connections, which I have difficulty develoing. And at this point, breaking into finance is very hard, but its easy to break into law as long as you have good grades. Business is very personality-driven, and I think that someone who gets nervous in public would have a difficult time. By contrast, such a person would be better off in law.

Of course, I could be wrong. I' going to look at some free law-related coruses in EdX, etc. to check out. I'll send out my applications this cycle. Again, thanks a lot!


theventriloquist wrote:
Thanks a lot for this advice. I too think that corporate law, M&A, and restructuring/finance is very interesting. I was looking at wachtell--not because I think I'd be able to get a job their, but becasue I wanted to read about the sort of work M&A does at the highest levels. I read some of the cases available online

I also have read supreme court cases (all are online), to see if I would be happy with reading such stuff all day long. So far, it does intereste me. Of course, actual law is much more boring, but I think that if such stuff intereste me, I would find law a worthy endeavor as well.


OP, you should decide to go to law school based on something more concrete than having found some Supreme Court cases interesting. Law tends to be very interesting: That's why it's in the news so often. But having fun thinking about the law is different from actually practicing law. Only go to law school if you want to become a practicing attorney (or have some other specific-to-you defensible plan that justifies the out-of-pocket and opportunity costs).

So, yes, cool that you're checking out law firm websites and reading court decisions. But try talking to some actual attorneys about the day-to-day of their careers. Read the threads on here about 'my actual day.' Do other things that acquaint you with the realities of what living out a career as a lawyer would be like.

Please don't just approach going to law school as an alternative to finance. If you're going to law school, be very intentional about it. Go because you want to be a lawyer. There are too many non-law school, non-finance options out there for you to feel constrained to these options.

Yes, you're right: some lawyers do a ton of reading and writing. But it all happens in a specific work context. It's not people just sitting around contemplating what the law should be. This is a service profession. Associates work for higher level associates and partners. All lawyers work for their clients. The work is driven by the clients' interests.

And getting a job or getting a client is very personality and connections driven. It's not just good grades and *zam* job. People work their networks to land interviews. If they don't have networks, they build them. And then you have to maintain your network, a never-ending task. During the interview, interviewers are looking for fit. Are you somebody they want to spend billing 2000 hours with each year? That's all about personality.

I'm not suggesting that you don't go to law school. But please just get informed first. It sounds like you want to do that, so my recommendation is to focus on doing it in a way that tells you whether you'll actually be happy dedicating three years of your life to law school and then an unknown but likely substantial number of years of your life to practicing law. Think hard about that before you get extremely invested in this process because then it's harder to pull back. I know it's tempting to not "waste" your great LSAT score, but if you don't think you're going to be happy going to work every day as a lawyer, don't go to law school.


Thanks a lot for this post.

For a long while I wanted to be a doctor, in fact. I got a very good MCAT score--on par with my LSAT score percentile. Trouble is, I can't get into medical school because of my low GPA in biology courses.

Thing is: I don't like biology. So even if I could get into medical school, I wouldn't like it.

But here's the other thing: If I had majored in something else, and had just taken the medical school pre-req's, I would've been a doctor by now.

But if I ask people on the forum here about being a lawyer, basically 100% of them hate it.

My thinking, I will say is this:

Here I am, getting older all the time, wasting my mind. Certainly, it would not be too arrogant to say that I can do better than what I am doing now: a low-level lab technician. I have published papers. But no matter: Without a PhD, I cannot get any good job. I have tried. And I also basically hate the work. Of course, science is cool, necessary, etc. but its not for me

My max earning now is 30-40K.

I have a lot of savings, plus with my parents I'd have no debt--even with minimal aid.

Here is what I am thinking: I'd go to a law school, and work in BigLaw for a few years. Then I will buy small busiensses (restruants, cafes, etc). I have experience in this area.

I just don't see any alternative here. I am good enough dealing w/ people to get various LSAT/MCAT tutoring jobs, and to get lab jobs and get my name on papers.

I just want to get out of my life. I work so hard now. I work in a lab, and then I work as a tutor, and also as a Uber drive. I basically work 12 hours a day and I am not getting anywhere.

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lymenheimer
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Re: 2.9, 177 AA/Hispanic Gay

Postby lymenheimer » Wed May 03, 2017 12:39 am

Why not take the money your parents will waste on you getting a JD, and open up businesses with that?

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cdotson2
Posts: 802
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Re: 2.9, 177 AA/Hispanic Gay

Postby cdotson2 » Wed May 03, 2017 12:42 am

theventriloquist wrote:I have a lot of savings, plus with my parents I'd have no debt--even with minimal aid.

theventriloquist wrote:I really don't want debt, I currently don't have any debt.

theventriloquist wrote:I was thinking of BU for L1, and then transferring over to a higher school.

theventriloquist wrote:The thing is, I really don't want debt. I think that I ought to do BU L1 tuition free, and then transfer over to another school. That would save a lot of money.

theventriloquist wrote:Debt is a major factor for me b/c if I apply this comming cycle, I'll start at age 28. So I'l graduate at 30, so IDK about my chances at biglaw and such.

theventriloquist wrote:Thanks a lot! I am wondering, is Boston University really so bad? NU, even w/ 150K, would be 90K in loans. BU would be 60K--only the living expenses.

theventriloquist wrote:Honestly Harvard at sticker price is well worth it.
I took the LSAT a while ago, so I think it might expire, I'm going to check. Thank you all again


is no one going to call flame?

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lymenheimer
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Re: 2.9, 177 AA/Hispanic Gay

Postby lymenheimer » Wed May 03, 2017 12:45 am

cdotson2 wrote:is no one going to call flame?

He's not going away even if flame, and he's spreading all over the place. It'd be one thing if it were a single thread, but concise countering of all his bullshit is the only way, unless the mods want to get involved.

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brinicolec
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Re: 2.9, 177 AA/Hispanic Gay

Postby brinicolec » Wed May 03, 2017 3:01 am

lymenheimer wrote:
cdotson2 wrote:is no one going to call flame?

He's not going away even if flame, and he's spreading all over the place. It'd be one thing if it were a single thread, but concise countering of all his bullshit is the only way, unless the mods want to get involved.


Honestly, he's like a goddamn weed.

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Mr_Chukes
Posts: 1153
Joined: Wed Dec 14, 2016 5:01 pm

Re: 2.9, 177 AA/Hispanic Gay

Postby Mr_Chukes » Wed May 03, 2017 11:52 pm

brinicolec wrote:
lymenheimer wrote:
cdotson2 wrote:is no one going to call flame?

He's not going away even if flame, and he's spreading all over the place. It'd be one thing if it were a single thread, but concise countering of all his bullshit is the only way, unless the mods want to get involved.


Honestly, he's like a goddamn weed.

He's a weed garden growing out of control lol.




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