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saltshaker
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Postby saltshaker » Mon Jan 16, 2017 4:44 pm

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Last edited by saltshaker on Sat Dec 02, 2017 6:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Mixed AA female, 3.6 174 - sights on Stanford?

Postby Nebby » Mon Jan 16, 2017 4:46 pm

You'd have a fine shot, but don't put the cart before the horse.

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Re: Mixed AA female, 3.6 174 - sights on Stanford?

Postby armc808 » Mon Jan 16, 2017 11:38 pm

Nebby wrote:You'd have a fine shot, but don't put the cart before the horse.

+1

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Re: Mixed AA female, 3.6 174 - sights on Stanford?

Postby saltshaker » Mon Jan 16, 2017 11:57 pm

Duly noted. To my second question: can a HLS grad with no California ties comfortably land a California PI job, or would I be better off taking the $$$ from Boalt (assuming I get in) or even UCLA, if my goal is Cali PI?

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Re: Mixed AA female, 3.6 174 - sights on Stanford?

Postby future liT1g4tor » Tue Jan 17, 2017 12:27 am

saltshaker wrote:Duly noted. To my second question: can a HLS grad with no California ties comfortably land a California PI job, or would I be better off taking the $$$ from Boalt (assuming I get in) or even UCLA, if my goal is Cali PI?


I can't see how attending Berkeley in the state you ultimately want to practice can hurt. Especially if your goal is PI & Berkeley throws $ your way.

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Re: Mixed AA female, 3.6 174 - sights on Stanford?

Postby Nebby » Tue Jan 17, 2017 12:30 am

saltshaker wrote:Duly noted. To my second question: can a HLS grad with no California ties comfortably land a California PI job, or would I be better off taking the $$$ from Boalt (assuming I get in) or even UCLA, if my goal is Cali PI?

Yes you can get a Cali PI job from HLS. HLS also has a better LRAP and fellowship funding than Boalt. For someone who is certain they're going PI and is okay with debt (that will likely not have to be repaid), then HLS is better.

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Re: Mixed AA female, 3.6 174 - sights on Stanford?

Postby future liT1g4tor » Tue Jan 17, 2017 12:55 am

Nebby wrote:
saltshaker wrote:Duly noted. To my second question: can a HLS grad with no California ties comfortably land a California PI job, or would I be better off taking the $$$ from Boalt (assuming I get in) or even UCLA, if my goal is Cali PI?

Yes you can get a Cali PI job from HLS. HLS also has a better LRAP and fellowship funding than Boalt. For someone who is certain they're going PI and is okay with debt (that will likely not have to be repaid), then HLS is better.


I just woke up and I was thinking Personal Injury for some reason, lol. What if one figures they hate PI work then they wouldnt necessarily be able to switch out because they took Harvard at sticker? Obviously you could just work non-PI and pay it back but in all honesty (I'm asking you) do you really see it that wise to put it in your overall calculation of attending LS? How do we know how absolutely sure they are they want PI or continue to want it. I just don't like the idea.

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Re: Mixed AA female, 3.6 174 - sights on Stanford?

Postby Nebby » Tue Jan 17, 2017 1:24 am

future liT1g4tor wrote:
Nebby wrote:
saltshaker wrote:Duly noted. To my second question: can a HLS grad with no California ties comfortably land a California PI job, or would I be better off taking the $$$ from Boalt (assuming I get in) or even UCLA, if my goal is Cali PI?

Yes you can get a Cali PI job from HLS. HLS also has a better LRAP and fellowship funding than Boalt. For someone who is certain they're going PI and is okay with debt (that will likely not have to be repaid), then HLS is better.


I just woke up and I was thinking Personal Injury for some reason, lol. What if one figures they hate PI work then they wouldnt necessarily be able to switch out because they took Harvard at sticker? Obviously you could just work non-PI and pay it back but in all honesty (I'm asking you) do you really see it that wise to put it in your overall calculation of attending LS? How do we know how absolutely sure they are they want PI or continue to want it. I just don't like the idea.

How do we know? We don't. It's up to them and how well they know themselves.

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Re: Mixed AA female, 3.6 174 - sights on Stanford?

Postby BlendedUnicorn » Tue Jan 17, 2017 1:31 am

Right now my biggest piece of advice for someone looking to do PI in the future would be to minimize costs. Nobody knows what PSLF will look like 4 or 5 years from now or if it will even exist. So if it did come down to Harvard at cost vs Berk with $$$ and you were 100% set on PI in CA (which is a little weird because usually people are dead set on a certain type of Pi but whatever) I would take Berk. Limiting debt maximizes your flexibility. But, again, who the fuck knows.

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Re: Mixed AA female, 3.6 174 - sights on Stanford?

Postby saltshaker » Tue Jan 17, 2017 10:41 am

I'm aiming for the unicorn PI jobs HYS grads typically have an easier time landing (Lamba, ACLU). Barring HYS, I'm willing to run the Biglaw-for-3yrs track, but it's not what I'm ~dreaming of.

Harvard's LIPP sounds at least marginally better than Stanford's LRAP (easier on assets, childcare), but I'd like to work in California. I fear HLS would make that more difficult than necessary, but I could be wrong. I appreciate the reassurances.

IIRC You can't qualify for Berk's LRAP if your debt is under 100k, which is a problem depending on the money offered. (And such a case where I would go the BL route). For PI, Stanford would ultimately be cheaper than Berk.

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Re: Mixed AA female, 3.6 174 - sights on Stanford?

Postby future liT1g4tor » Tue Jan 17, 2017 1:05 pm

saltshaker wrote:I'm aiming for the unicorn PI jobs HYS grads typically have an easier time landing (Lamba, ACLU). Barring HYS, I'm willing to run the Biglaw-for-3yrs track, but it's not what I'm ~dreaming of.

Harvard's LIPP sounds at least marginally better than Stanford's LRAP (easier on assets, childcare), but I'd like to work in California. I fear HLS would make that more difficult than necessary, but I could be wrong. I appreciate the reassurances.

IIRC You can't qualify for Berk's LRAP if your debt is under 100k, which is a problem depending on the money offered. (And such a case where I would go the BL route). For PI, Stanford would ultimately be cheaper than Berk.


If your debt is under 100k you should think twice about making it higher just for LRAP.

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Re: Mixed AA female, 3.6 174 - sights on Stanford?

Postby Nebby » Tue Jan 17, 2017 1:18 pm

saltshaker wrote:I'm aiming for the unicorn PI jobs HYS grads typically have an easier time landing (Lamba, ACLU). Barring HYS, I'm willing to run the Biglaw-for-3yrs track, but it's not what I'm ~dreaming of.

Harvard's LIPP sounds at least marginally better than Stanford's LRAP (easier on assets, childcare), but I'd like to work in California. I fear HLS would make that more difficult than necessary, but I could be wrong. I appreciate the reassurances.

IIRC You can't qualify for Berk's LRAP if your debt is under 100k, which is a problem depending on the money offered. (And such a case where I would go the BL route). For PI, Stanford would ultimately be cheaper than Berk.

If all you want is Lamba, ACLU, then HYS won't do anything that Berkeley won't.

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Re: Mixed AA female, 3.6 174 - sights on Stanford?

Postby BlendedUnicorn » Tue Jan 17, 2017 1:20 pm

How much impact PI is there in CA? I'd assume being willing to move to DC or NY is going to be important for that especially since I assume like-minded lawyers will be fleeing the government and taking desirable jobs with those orgs.

IDK though don't limit your options yet. Come back with offers and numbers and we'll have a better sense of the state of the legal profession to boot.

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Re: Mixed AA female, 3.6 174 - sights on Stanford?

Postby saltshaker » Tue Jan 17, 2017 2:35 pm

Nebby wrote:
saltshaker wrote:I'm aiming for the unicorn PI jobs HYS grads typically have an easier time landing (Lamba, ACLU). Barring HYS, I'm willing to run the Biglaw-for-3yrs track, but it's not what I'm ~dreaming of.

Harvard's LIPP sounds at least marginally better than Stanford's LRAP (easier on assets, childcare), but I'd like to work in California. I fear HLS would make that more difficult than necessary, but I could be wrong. I appreciate the reassurances.

IIRC You can't qualify for Berk's LRAP if your debt is under 100k, which is a problem depending on the money offered. (And such a case where I would go the BL route). For PI, Stanford would ultimately be cheaper than Berk.

If all you want is Lamba, ACLU, then HYS won't do anything that Berkeley won't.


Just out of curiosity - if Lamba/ACLU is modest for HLS/SLS, what kind of prestigious unicorn PI are we talking about here? I have a passing knowledge of other fellowships/impact orgos, but ACLU's attorney roster looks replete with Ivy grads. I'm interested if there's anything else I should be looking at.

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Re: Mixed AA female, 3.6 174 - sights on Stanford?

Postby alpha kenny body » Tue Jan 17, 2017 2:36 pm

I have roughly those same stats, and I am half AA as well. I was recently WL at Y, and I have a JS1 this week.

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Re: Mixed AA female, 3.6 174 - sights on Stanford?

Postby saltshaker » Tue Jan 17, 2017 2:39 pm

fips tedora wrote:I have roughly those same stats, and I am half AA as well. I was recently WL at Y, and I have a JS1 this week.


Encouraging. Hope all goes well! If it's fine with you, drop in w/ how it goes+any material deets.

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Re: Mixed AA female, 3.6 174 - sights on Stanford?

Postby Nebby » Tue Jan 17, 2017 2:46 pm

saltshaker wrote:
Nebby wrote:
saltshaker wrote:I'm aiming for the unicorn PI jobs HYS grads typically have an easier time landing (Lamba, ACLU). Barring HYS, I'm willing to run the Biglaw-for-3yrs track, but it's not what I'm ~dreaming of.

Harvard's LIPP sounds at least marginally better than Stanford's LRAP (easier on assets, childcare), but I'd like to work in California. I fear HLS would make that more difficult than necessary, but I could be wrong. I appreciate the reassurances.

IIRC You can't qualify for Berk's LRAP if your debt is under 100k, which is a problem depending on the money offered. (And such a case where I would go the BL route). For PI, Stanford would ultimately be cheaper than Berk.

If all you want is Lamba, ACLU, then HYS won't do anything that Berkeley won't.


Just out of curiosity - if Lamba/ACLU is modest for HLS/SLS, what kind of prestigious unicorn PI are we talking about here? I have a passing knowledge of other fellowships/impact orgos, but ACLU's attorney roster looks replete with Ivy grads. I'm interested if there's anything else I should be looking at.

Modest? Nothing is modest in upper-level PI. There are a handful of entry-level PI jobs available every year and it takes a combination of luck, skill, hard work, networking, personality, luck, a good school, and more luck to obtain them. A Boalt grad can land anything in the entry-level category that a HLS grad can.

I briefly looked at ACLU of Northern California and ACLU Illinois' attorney list, and of the publically available data about half did not attend HYS. What did the majority of them have in common though? They worked somewhere else prior to joining ACLU and gained the requisite skill set necessary to practice at ACLU. The same is true at Lamba--the overwhelming majority of their attorneys worked somewhere else first and gained necessary experience. The same is true at every other org in every other sphere.

My specialty is enviro nonprofit impact orgs, and I work at one currently. The majority of attorneys did not begin here, but rather worked elsewhere and lateraled here. The same is true in the other major enviro impact orgs.

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Re: Mixed AA female, 3.6 174 - sights on Stanford?

Postby saltshaker » Tue Jan 17, 2017 2:58 pm

Nebby wrote:
saltshaker wrote:
Nebby wrote:
saltshaker wrote:I'm aiming for the unicorn PI jobs HYS grads typically have an easier time landing (Lamba, ACLU). Barring HYS, I'm willing to run the Biglaw-for-3yrs track, but it's not what I'm ~dreaming of.

Harvard's LIPP sounds at least marginally better than Stanford's LRAP (easier on assets, childcare), but I'd like to work in California. I fear HLS would make that more difficult than necessary, but I could be wrong. I appreciate the reassurances.

IIRC You can't qualify for Berk's LRAP if your debt is under 100k, which is a problem depending on the money offered. (And such a case where I would go the BL route). For PI, Stanford would ultimately be cheaper than Berk.

If all you want is Lamba, ACLU, then HYS won't do anything that Berkeley won't.


Just out of curiosity - if Lamba/ACLU is modest for HLS/SLS, what kind of prestigious unicorn PI are we talking about here? I have a passing knowledge of other fellowships/impact orgos, but ACLU's attorney roster looks replete with Ivy grads. I'm interested if there's anything else I should be looking at.

Modest? Nothing is modest in upper-level PI. There are a handful of entry-level PI jobs available every year and it takes a combination of luck, skill, hard work, networking, personality, luck, a good school, and more luck to obtain them. A Boalt grad can land anything in the entry-level category that a HLS grad can.

I briefly looked at ACLU of Northern California and ACLU Illinois' attorney list, and of the publically available data about half did not attend HYS. What did the majority of them have in common though? They worked somewhere else prior to joining ACLU and gained the requisite skill set necessary to practice at ACLU. The same is true at Lamba--the overwhelming majority of their attorneys worked somewhere else first and gained necessary experience. The same is true at every other org in every other sphere.

My specialty is enviro nonprofit impact orgs, and I work at one currently. The majority of attorneys did not begin here, but rather worked elsewhere and lateraled here. The same is true in the other major enviro impact orgs.


This is mighty helpful, thanks. I'm guessing it's not typical for freshly minted federal clerks to lateral into these upper-level impact PIs, since clerking doesn't necessarily give you the requisite skills/on-job training. What kinds of PI jobs would a YLS grad have a better chance at, however? Does it really all come down to the strength of HYS's loan repayment programs, over T6 schools who offer merit $$$ to PI-minded students? I guess I'm confused as to the raw benefits of going to HYS if your goals are ACLU/Lamba, unless there's something even more unicorn-y out there.

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Re: Mixed AA female, 3.6 174 - sights on Stanford?

Postby Nebby » Tue Jan 17, 2017 3:10 pm

saltshaker wrote:
Nebby wrote:Modest? Nothing is modest in upper-level PI. There are a handful of entry-level PI jobs available every year and it takes a combination of luck, skill, hard work, networking, personality, luck, a good school, and more luck to obtain them. A Boalt grad can land anything in the entry-level category that a HLS grad can.

I briefly looked at ACLU of Northern California and ACLU Illinois' attorney list, and of the publically available data about half did not attend HYS. What did the majority of them have in common though? They worked somewhere else prior to joining ACLU and gained the requisite skill set necessary to practice at ACLU. The same is true at Lamba--the overwhelming majority of their attorneys worked somewhere else first and gained necessary experience. The same is true at every other org in every other sphere.

My specialty is enviro nonprofit impact orgs, and I work at one currently. The majority of attorneys did not begin here, but rather worked elsewhere and lateraled here. The same is true in the other major enviro impact orgs.


This is mighty helpful, thanks. I'm guessing it's not typical for freshly minted federal clerks to lateral into these upper-level impact PIs, since clerking doesn't necessarily give you the requisite skills/on-job training. What kinds of PI jobs would a YLS grad have a better chance at, however? Does it really all come down to the strength of HYS's loan repayment programs, over T6 schools who offer merit $$$ to PI-minded students? I guess I'm confused as to the raw benefits of going to HYS if your goals are ACLU/Lamba, unless there's something even more unicorn-y out there.

Freshly minted federal clerks will have a better shot at a PI org entry-level position than a non-clerk. I don't really know if a newly-minted clerk has a better shot than a litigation attorney with a year experience, however. If I was hiring, I'd choose the attorney with 1-year of experience over the clerk in most circumstances, assuming other things being equal. With that said, you should definitely clerk if you're interested in PI. It can only help.

For me, yes the main difference between say CLS (where I graduated from) and HYS is the financial boost from the LRAP. CLS has a great LRAP, all things being equal, but HLS' is even better.

It is incredibly hard for me to state, and I don't know if there even is, the raw-benefit of HYS over Boalt + $ for PI. I can objectively say that HYS has the best LRAP. I cannot objectively say that HYS will give you a PI employment boost compared to Boalt, however. It largely comes down to the person hiring, and it's incredibly idiosyncratic. Most PI orgs are looking for someone with good skills and someone they'd like to work with, and school rank between HYS and T6 is not informative.

On a related but unrelated note and some general advice: Fellowships are the best way into the practice of PI. There are relatively few entry-level PI gigs, but there are fellowship opportunities. They usually are funded by either Equal Justice Works, Skadden, or the respective school. Some school's offer pretty generous funding for post-grad fellowships. For instance, Boalt's is $45k, CLS' is only $30k, and I don't know what HYS is but I assume it is comparable to Boalt.

Students will do the fellowship for a year, and either (1) get hired as a staff attorney at that org, or (2) will get a job elsewhere in a staff attorney/associate capacity. Occasionally, PI people will get a clerkship that begins a year after graduation, and they will go: (1) fellowship, (2) clerkship, (3) staff attorney position.

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Re: Mixed AA female, 3.6 174 - sights on Stanford?

Postby saltshaker » Tue Jan 17, 2017 3:28 pm

Nebby wrote:Freshly minted federal clerks will have a better shot at a PI org entry-level position than a non-clerk. I don't really know if a newly-minted clerk has a better shot than a litigation attorney with a year experience, however. If I was hiring, I'd choose the attorney with 1-year of experience over the clerk in most circumstances, assuming other things being equal. With that said, you should definitely clerk if you're interested in PI. It can only help.

For me, yes the main difference between say CLS (where I graduated from) and HYS is the financial boost from the LRAP. CLS has a great LRAP, all things being equal, but HLS' is even better.

It is incredibly hard for me to state, and I don't know if there even is, the raw-benefit of HYS over Boalt + $ for PI. I can objectively say that HYS has the best LRAP. I cannot objectively say that HYS will give you a PI employment boost compared to Boalt, however. It largely comes down to the person hiring, and it's incredibly idiosyncratic. Most PI orgs are looking for someone with good skills and someone they'd like to work with, and school rank between HYS and T6 is not informative.

On a related but unrelated note and some general advice: Fellowships are the best way into the practice of PI. There are relatively few entry-level PI gigs, but there are fellowship opportunities. They usually are funded by either Equal Justice Works, Skadden, or the respective school. Some school's offer pretty generous funding for post-grad fellowships. For instance, Boalt's is $45k, CLS' is only $30k, and I don't know what HYS is but I assume it is comparable to Boalt.

Students will do the fellowship for a year, and either (1) get hired as a staff attorney at that org, or (2) will get a job elsewhere in a staff attorney/associate capacity. Occasionally, PI people will get a clerkship that begins a year after graduation, and they will go: (1) fellowship, (2) clerkship, (3) staff attorney position.


You mentioned in an earlier reply that HLS' fellowship funding outpaces Boalt's, and if my intuition is any judge I'm inclined to go with that. Safe to say, if my choices were between SLS at sticker, HLS at sticker, and Boalt + $$$ (enough $$$ to disqualify me from their LRAP) - I should go with SLS, aiming for those clerkships + fellowships + entry level jobs.

The real problem is - Boalt with just enough money to qualify me for their LRAP, versus SLS/HLS at sticker.




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