URM 2016-2017 Cycle Thread

(BLS, URM status, non-traditional, GLBT)
onlyhere4fun

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Re: URM 2016-2017 Cycle Thread

Postby onlyhere4fun » Wed Feb 15, 2017 5:58 pm

That's true that they don't boost as hard but Idk I feel like people make assumptions about S and Y (and t-14 in general) based on mylsn because it's the only reference we have for Acceptances. But it's especially unreliable for URMS (and even more so for AA URMS). I hesitate to say Bri definitely doesn't have the stats for either school because I'm not sure (and I doubt many people know) if it's unprecedented for a URM to be admitted to those schools with similar stats because there are so few of these types of people to begin with. Does Bri have a strong chance? No. But does Bri have no chance? Eh I hesitate to say "Yes Bri has no chance and it's impossible".

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PrezRand

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Re: URM 2016-2017 Cycle Thread

Postby PrezRand » Wed Feb 15, 2017 6:00 pm

brinicolec wrote:
PrezRand wrote:Y/S do not boost URMs as hard because they take the URMs with comparable stats to their normal applicants.

As for you brinicolec, I didn't know you were mixed. Personally, I wouldn't consider you a URM unless you were mixed with two different URM groups. That's just my take. I think I read somewhere on this forum that mixed URMs don't get as much of a boost. Your LSAT was like a 169 right? Your cycle should have been better


Meh, I'd argue that it depends on what I identify with most/am identified as most (which would be black). I really don't receive any of the benefits of being white or Asian at all.

And no, my LSAT was a 167 and my GPA is below 25ths.

Eh. 2 tls students last year with similar or lower stats than you had a better cycle but both just AAs. When did you apply?

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brinicolec

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Re: URM 2016-2017 Cycle Thread

Postby brinicolec » Wed Feb 15, 2017 6:01 pm

Mrocky2 wrote:Huh?!?!? Since when do you need two URM groups to be a URM, Idk the breakdown nor does it matter, but certainly if you're half black, 1/4 white and 1/4 Asian you're a URM


Yup, that's the mix! Lol.

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S.Picquery

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Re: URM 2016-2017 Cycle Thread

Postby S.Picquery » Wed Feb 15, 2017 6:02 pm

So I'm in a similar situation to bri, I have no scholly from UMich, still waiting on the UVA scholarship, but I have a HEFTY scholarship from Emory (whether or not I get the Woodruff). Got WL'd at Chicago, and GULC, and am pending at HLS and UPenn. (These aren't all the schools I applied to but, the only ones in my cycle that matter at this point.) I think this has been a weeeeiiiird cycle for URMs, but I also wanna practice in Atlanta. This may mean Emory is the right choice for me. I, for example, think it would be bananas for me to take out $288k to pay back UVA/UMich to work in a secondary market. Even if I got Atl BL, paying that back wouldn't be easy AND I'd probably have way more trouble proving my "ties" there (something that seems pretty important in the Atl area).

Now if UVA magically decides to give me a scholarship that's anything more than mediocre, we have a new conversation. But, there are always other circumstances. Just another 2 cents that no one asked for :P

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brinicolec

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Re: URM 2016-2017 Cycle Thread

Postby brinicolec » Wed Feb 15, 2017 6:02 pm

PrezRand wrote:
brinicolec wrote:
PrezRand wrote:Y/S do not boost URMs as hard because they take the URMs with comparable stats to their normal applicants.

As for you brinicolec, I didn't know you were mixed. Personally, I wouldn't consider you a URM unless you were mixed with two different URM groups. That's just my take. I think I read somewhere on this forum that mixed URMs don't get as much of a boost. Your LSAT was like a 169 right? Your cycle should have been better


Meh, I'd argue that it depends on what I identify with most/am identified as most (which would be black). I really don't receive any of the benefits of being white or Asian at all.

And no, my LSAT was a 167 and my GPA is below 25ths.

Eh. 2 tls students last year with similar or lower stats than you had a better cycle but both just AAs. When did you apply?


Last year is important to emphasize. Even folks like MS9 have said this cycle is weird, and I think it's weird in a way that doesn't favor people with stats like mine, especially the GPA. I applied late-November.

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Mrocky2

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Re: URM 2016-2017 Cycle Thread

Postby Mrocky2 » Wed Feb 15, 2017 6:06 pm

PrezRand wrote:
brinicolec wrote:
PrezRand wrote:Y/S do not boost URMs as hard because they take the URMs with comparable stats to their normal applicants.

As for you brinicolec, I didn't know you were mixed. Personally, I wouldn't consider you a URM unless you were mixed with two different URM groups. That's just my take. I think I read somewhere on this forum that mixed URMs don't get as much of a boost. Your LSAT was like a 169 right? Your cycle should have been better


Meh, I'd argue that it depends on what I identify with most/am identified as most (which would be black). I really don't receive any of the benefits of being white or Asian at all.

And no, my LSAT was a 167 and my GPA is below 25ths.

Eh. 2 tls students last year with similar or lower stats than you had a better cycle but both just AAs. When did you apply?


I don't know the circumstances, adcoms look at the whole package plus when you apply is important, but I would say as a general note, prior years reliability will be worse and worse. I would say the 2015 and 2016 cycle were the best for all, including URM's, out of the recent years. People just weren't applying after the downturn, this started to change at the beginning of 2016, add with that the new 180 scale and apps will continue to shoot up
Last edited by Mrocky2 on Wed Feb 15, 2017 6:09 pm, edited 2 times in total.

onlyhere4fun

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Re: URM 2016-2017 Cycle Thread

Postby onlyhere4fun » Wed Feb 15, 2017 6:06 pm

brinicolec wrote:
onlyhere4fun wrote:
brinicolec wrote:
onlyhere4fun wrote:
brinicolec wrote:
onlyhere4fun wrote:
P.S.I stalk this forum a lot and I've seen your stats and your current outcome this cycle and I think you really underperformed. I would absolutely not suggest that you take t-14 at sticker because you should definitely be able to get significant scholly at a few of them. If I were in your shoes I wouldn't even retake I would just work for another year fine tune my apps and apply on September 1st. (Obviously retake if you feel you can improve and you don't mind suffering through the test again but your score plus your urm status should get you a much better outcome than what you got this cycle).


Based on LSN, I don't really know if I think it's a matter of underperforming. I think this is a bad cycle for my GPA/LSAT combo. I also mark multiple races on apps (only one which is considered URM), wonder if that matters.


Hmm it might have. If you don't mind me asking, what are you mixed as?

I also think this has just been a harsh/unusual cycle in general for URMs though.


Black, Japanese, and white. Really, you can primarily tell because I'm lighter-skinned and some people can see the Asian in my face, but other than that, I look more like a light-skinned black woman than anything else.


So I'm going to say this with no offense intended, but if you do reapply just put black. I'm not trying to say you shouldn't embrace the other aspects of your race nor that you shouldn't let people know who you are and that you're proud to be you. But you really should put black just to game the system deadass :lol:

If I were in your shoes I would. If you feel like it's dishonest or you're not comfortable with doing that then I understand. But to me, doing that, plus fine tuning your apps would make HYS in contention for you, let alone scholly from the T-14.

And it isn't lying technically. It would just be how you choose to identify yourself in the moment that you complete your applications. And you are part black, so it's not like you're pulling something out of your ass. :lol:


Are you sure you've seen my stats because I don't have Y/S stats lol. And yeah, idk about doing that.


Actually now that I think about it, my suggestion probably isn't a good idea since the schools you've applied to will have your previous application on file probably and could check to see if you remained consistent with how you chose to identify yourself. I really don't think there's anything wrong with someone mixed race (especially if mostly black) identifying as black though because for all intents and purposes the world will treat you as such.

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Mr_Chukes

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Re: URM 2016-2017 Cycle Thread

Postby Mr_Chukes » Wed Feb 15, 2017 6:14 pm

brinicolec wrote:
PrezRand wrote:Y/S do not boost URMs as hard because they take the URMs with comparable stats to their normal applicants.

As for you brinicolec, I didn't know you were mixed. Personally, I wouldn't consider you a URM unless you were mixed with two different URM groups. That's just my take. I think I read somewhere on this forum that mixed URMs don't get as much of a boost. Your LSAT was like a 169 right? Your cycle should have been better


Meh, I'd argue that it depends on what I identify with most/am identified as most (which would be black). I really don't receive any of the benefits of being white or Asian at all.

And no, my LSAT was a 167 and my GPA is below 25ths.

That's all that matters. It would be different to identify as white and then go around and claim being black just to get a boost lol.

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brinicolec

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Re: URM 2016-2017 Cycle Thread

Postby brinicolec » Wed Feb 15, 2017 6:15 pm

onlyhere4fun wrote:
brinicolec wrote:
onlyhere4fun wrote:
brinicolec wrote:
onlyhere4fun wrote:
brinicolec wrote:
onlyhere4fun wrote:
P.S.I stalk this forum a lot and I've seen your stats and your current outcome this cycle and I think you really underperformed. I would absolutely not suggest that you take t-14 at sticker because you should definitely be able to get significant scholly at a few of them. If I were in your shoes I wouldn't even retake I would just work for another year fine tune my apps and apply on September 1st. (Obviously retake if you feel you can improve and you don't mind suffering through the test again but your score plus your urm status should get you a much better outcome than what you got this cycle).


Based on LSN, I don't really know if I think it's a matter of underperforming. I think this is a bad cycle for my GPA/LSAT combo. I also mark multiple races on apps (only one which is considered URM), wonder if that matters.


Hmm it might have. If you don't mind me asking, what are you mixed as?

I also think this has just been a harsh/unusual cycle in general for URMs though.


Black, Japanese, and white. Really, you can primarily tell because I'm lighter-skinned and some people can see the Asian in my face, but other than that, I look more like a light-skinned black woman than anything else.


So I'm going to say this with no offense intended, but if you do reapply just put black. I'm not trying to say you shouldn't embrace the other aspects of your race nor that you shouldn't let people know who you are and that you're proud to be you. But you really should put black just to game the system deadass :lol:

If I were in your shoes I would. If you feel like it's dishonest or you're not comfortable with doing that then I understand. But to me, doing that, plus fine tuning your apps would make HYS in contention for you, let alone scholly from the T-14.

And it isn't lying technically. It would just be how you choose to identify yourself in the moment that you complete your applications. And you are part black, so it's not like you're pulling something out of your ass. :lol:


Are you sure you've seen my stats because I don't have Y/S stats lol. And yeah, idk about doing that.


Actually now that I think about it, my suggestion probably isn't a good idea since the schools you've applied to will have your previous application on file probably and could check to see if you remained consistent with how you chose to identify yourself. I really don't think there's anything wrong with someone mixed race (especially if mostly black) identifying as black though because for all intents and purposes the world will treat you as such.


Eh, if anything I'd drop the white but not the Japanese. Might be weird but it's important to me lol.

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S.Picquery

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Re: URM 2016-2017 Cycle Thread

Postby S.Picquery » Wed Feb 15, 2017 6:44 pm

brinicolec wrote:Eh, if anything I'd drop the white but not the Japanese. Might be weird but it's important to me lol.

This makes perfect sense to me.

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Re: URM 2016-2017 Cycle Thread

Postby bunney_j » Wed Feb 15, 2017 6:49 pm

Torres1893 wrote:
onlyhere4fun wrote:
S.Picquery wrote:
20171lhopeful wrote:Can I ask why you're opposed to paying sticker at Mich?


Maybe because upon repayment bri would owe 288k and that's a crippling amount of debt? I'm staring at the numbers too and may have to make the same decision :/


Ahh I'm happy you guys are having at least some-what decent cycles (any T-14 acceptances). Keep in mind though that there are probably external scholarships outside of the ones schools give you (although internal scholarships seem to have the potential to be the most generous). Since I've been battling whether I should go to LS cuz of the cost and my subpar stats I've decided to conduct some research on a bunch of scholarships that I am eligible to receive. These are a few (although a few of them are for AA makes specifically). Just google them and they should come up.

LMJ Scholarship Program
Sidney B. Williams scholarships
Donald W. Banner Diversity Scholarship
Law students Legal Opportunity Scholarship Fund,
Earl Warren Scholarship

And there are bunch more depending on whether you're male or female or a specific minority. These scholarships aren't guaranteed and they aren't offering a crazy amount but they're worth a shot, and if you accrew enough of them then they may even add up to a significant amount.

And on another note regarding debt-aversion, I'm not sure if you get into a t-14 that you should pass it up even if you have to pay sticker. As long as you do well enough (meaning median or better at the T-13) then you have a good chance of snagging big law especially with the diversity bump we would get during OCI. And although burnout in BL is real and you can't really set in stone how long you will work there, it still gives you the opportunity to really increase your earning potential in a way that has a lesser chance of happening from lower ranked schools.

I totally get if people don't want to take the chance with that crazy debt (because it's definitely crazy, I was seriously considering not going to Law school because of it) but there may be long term consequences which may limit your overall earning potential by going the safer route (t20-30 with a lot of scholly vs t-14 with little schoolly or sticker). And even thought that earning potential might be tied to a crazy debt load, if you can pay it off and break even you could be making six figures for the rest of your professional career.

Sorry for the long-ass post I just was struggling with the debt aspect of Law School myself recently, and I thought sharing this scholly info might help. I seriously encourage you guys to search for more scholly info and also take a look at this thread which speaks on the T-14 at sticker topic in more detail and gave me a different perspective on the matter.

viewtopic.php?f=5&t=262005

P.S. This is under the assumption that you wouldn't be able to break 6 figures without law school and that you're only considering law school as a grad school option.


I started the cycle with the thought that I would only attend a law school that offers me a good scholarship, now that idea has changed. I got a full ride to IU Maurer (ranked 25th), which would allow me to graduate with less than 50k in loans (possibly even less than 35k if I split housing costs with someone). I was real excited about going there, but after looking more at the employment prospects/starting salary/employment location I began to have doubts. I don't mind starting my career in the midwest, but I want to work in Texas and make enough money to make the investment of law school worth it. I've recently been accepted to UT, and looking at posts of Texas residents a lot of them are not getting scholarships or only really low offers. So, now I'm considering paying sticker or taking out like 150k in loans to attend UT, that way I have a far greater chance of working in Houston and having a higher earning potential/better job outcomes.

I can't stop thinking about whether I should go to Maurer or UT. I think about it at work, at the gym, watching tv, or playing video games. these next few weeks are going to suck until I get my offer from UT, and I really hope it's something more than 15k, but since I'm below 25th for LSAT and a Tex resident I'm expecting $0.



I was considering Indiana at full as well and made a thread: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=274019

Everyone basically said disregard Indiana! Though I want to work in NY so maybe that's why

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Re: URM 2016-2017 Cycle Thread

Postby bunney_j » Wed Feb 15, 2017 7:05 pm

Mrocky2 wrote:
onlyhere4fun wrote:
Mrocky2 wrote:
onlyhere4fun wrote:
S.Picquery wrote:
20171lhopeful wrote:Can I ask why you're opposed to paying sticker at Mich?


Maybe because upon repayment bri would owe 288k and that's a crippling amount of debt? I'm staring at the numbers too and may have to make the same decision :/


Ahh I'm happy you guys are having at least some-what decent cycles (any T-14 acceptances). Keep in mind though that there are probably external scholarships outside of the ones schools give you (although internal scholarships seem to have the potential to be the most generous). Since I've been battling whether I should go to LS cuz of the cost and my subpar stats I've decided to conduct some research on a bunch of scholarships that I am eligible to receive. These are a few (although a few of them are for AA makes specifically). Just google them and they should come up.

LMJ Scholarship Program
Sidney B. Williams scholarships
Donald W. Banner Diversity Scholarship
Law students Legal Opportunity Scholarship Fund,
Earl Warren Scholarship

And there are bunch more depending on whether you're male or female or a specific minority. These scholarships aren't guaranteed and they aren't offering a crazy amount but they're worth a shot, and if you accrew enough of them then they may even add up to a significant amount.

And on another note regarding debt-aversion, I'm not sure if you get into a t-14 that you should pass it up even if you have to pay sticker. As long as you do well enough (meaning median or better at the T-13) then you have a good chance of snagging big law especially with the diversity bump we would get during OCI. And although burnout in BL is real and you can't really set in stone how long you will work there, it still gives you the opportunity to really increase your earning potential in a way that has a lesser chance of happening from lower ranked schools.

I totally get if people don't want to take the chance with that crazy debt (because it's definitely crazy, I was seriously considering not going to Law school because of it) but there may be long term consequences which may limit your overall earning potential by going the safer route (t20-30 with a lot of scholly vs t-14 with little schoolly or sticker). And even thought that earning potential might be tied to a crazy debt load, if you can pay it off and break even you could be making six figures for the rest of your professional career.

Sorry for the long-ass post I just was struggling with the debt aspect of Law School myself recently, and I thought sharing this scholly info might help. I seriously encourage you guys to search for more scholly info and also take a look at this thread which speaks on the T-14 at sticker topic in more detail and gave me a different perspective on the matter.

viewtopic.php?f=5&t=262005

P.S. This is under the assumption that you wouldn't be able to break 6 figures without law school and that you're only considering law school as a grad school option.


Thats definitely good advice about outside scholarships, a few grand here and there means a lot when calculated with the interest from loans over 10 years. I definitely agree with the sentiment that the T-14 sets you up with the best opportunity to get BL and you don't even need to be above median for many schools. However, paying sticker even with big law would be a miserable experience, not only do people not last enough time to reasonably pay that off in BL, minorities tend to leave BL even sooner. Paying off 300k is no joke, especially in the prime of your life, and tuition does increase every year. Don't write off the strain on relationships, personal fulfillment, comfort, family goals with that much debt. I get it, I really do. I applied one cycle got into my dream schools including Harvard and others with decent scholarships and then decided to take a look at what this would mean for my happiness and I decided to give that all up, take the LSAT for a 3rd time and try again, I lived at home (I know thats not possible for everyone) saved up money, did better and got a much better scholarship, went T6, SEO, landed a 1l gig the whole 9 and most importantly, I'm much happier with my future financial outlook, of course this is all in hindsight, but when I say it was one of the hardest things that I have had to do, especially moving back home, working in a job that i didn't particularly like etc. and studying AGAIN for that awful test it was terrible. But, I would do it again. Everyone's situation isn't the same, but many URM's will be fully taking on this debt without much help from parents etc. and so seeing that half of the class has no scholarship might look normal (This is T14), but some people's situations are different, I've seen it myself.Just my 2 cents,



Bro you're preaching to the converted!! I actually want your out come to be honest and I'm going to take the lsat a 4th time ( I hate this test with every fiber of my being), and work for about 2-3 years (and hopefully save around 20-30k) in order to get closer to the outcome you had. But honestly your outcome is ideal and many URMs are going to have to face the hard decision of whether to go to a T-14 for sticker or going to a lower school for more scholly. I just wanted to present a different perspective because it really should be seen as an investment and shouldn't be shut off by default. Obviously if you have the option to sit out, retake, and reapply that will always be the superior option but many people are not willing to wait. I'm hoping this info helps some of those people. And there's some contention about the yield rate of URMS in big law. There have been many that posted in this forum that have said that URMS stay less often in big law than their non-URM counterparts because they are often offered more appealing exit options at a higher rate than their non-URMs counterparts which justify a lateral move rather than staying in the hell that is big law. You won't be making as much probably but you'd still have a good chance at making 6 figures. When a URM decides to lateral though is a personal one. If I were in the position of attending a t-14 at sticker and I got biglaw at market paying rate then I would do my best to stay there at least 3 years and live VERY frugally for those 3 years to pay off as much as I can (I'm used to living with very little in the way of money and even after half of my salary would go to loan payments I would still be making more than I do now :lol: ). This is all hoping for an ideal outcome but it's a risk versus reward type of situation. I just don't think people should unequivocally say that it isn't worth the risk because they may shut themselves out of an opportunity by being too risk-averse. Obviously the opposite worst possible case scenario is also possible but in reality we don't live our lives expecting the worst, we do our best and hope for the best. In the end, this is a very personal decision and I don't think there is necessarily a wrong answer (unless retaking is an option :lol: ).


For sure! It's such a tough decision, and I agree, my story, outcome, and situation is different from each and every person's personal story. I would absolutely call myself an optimistic person so that definitely made my decisions that much harder. I absolutely appreciate your perspective because it's needed, but it seems like you've come to a point where you have done some self reflection and are working toward the best case scenario for you, there's not much more you can do after that. I just want to make sure that other people do that too and forget about the prestige, how your family will look at you etc. and ask yourself truthfully, not artificially, if you would be okay with the decision you're about to make and how regardless of the financial ROI (because yes like you said it's an investment), what about the intangibles, quantify that and then revisit your calculations. And yea you're right about urm's leaving for more comfortable opportunities so that's a plus :)!


I agree with what y'all are saying and for a lot of people it does make sense to reapply and wait out a cycle - I just want to provide my take.

I'm applied last year with a lower LSAT while in grad school. I got into Chicago + Cornell + NW + vandy, waitlisted by Columbia + Emory + NYU, and rejected by Duke. I didn't apply to a large range of schools and got almost no money. Everyone on here basically told me to retake, blanket the t14, etc.

This cycle I have a higher LSAT, more WE, and overall better stats, and have received a lot of money from t20 schools and back accepted by cornell and vandy, etc. BUT I was also waitlisted by Chicago AND Northwestern unexpectedly. Last year with a "Worse" app I was held from NW and then accepted and straight admitted to Chicago. I still have most of the t14 to hear back from.

I do almost wish I just went to school last year. I regret passing up chicago at sticker & definitely will regret it if I don't get into a t6 this time. I think URM cycles are always unpredictable and moreso as reapplicants. Though there are definitely success stories I feel like there are downsides. I'm currently working a job just for my resume basically, and would probably rather be in school pursuing what I know I want to do in my life.

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Re: URM 2016-2017 Cycle Thread

Postby sfn91 » Wed Feb 15, 2017 7:23 pm

I think there is such a small sample size of URM applicants that it's much harder to predict what will happen with any given application and a holistic review is more relevant with these applications. Law schools don't really need URMs to keep their stats - there is such a dearth of them to begin with that they don't affect their medians.

GPA and not LSAT seems to be the most predictive aspect of URM applications.
Last edited by sfn91 on Wed Feb 15, 2017 7:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Mr_Chukes

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Re: URM 2016-2017 Cycle Thread

Postby Mr_Chukes » Wed Feb 15, 2017 7:24 pm

bunney_j wrote:
Mrocky2 wrote:
onlyhere4fun wrote:
Mrocky2 wrote:
onlyhere4fun wrote:
S.Picquery wrote:
20171lhopeful wrote:Can I ask why you're opposed to paying sticker at Mich?


Maybe because upon repayment bri would owe 288k and that's a crippling amount of debt? I'm staring at the numbers too and may have to make the same decision :/


Ahh I'm happy you guys are having at least some-what decent cycles (any T-14 acceptances). Keep in mind though that there are probably external scholarships outside of the ones schools give you (although internal scholarships seem to have the potential to be the most generous). Since I've been battling whether I should go to LS cuz of the cost and my subpar stats I've decided to conduct some research on a bunch of scholarships that I am eligible to receive. These are a few (although a few of them are for AA makes specifically). Just google them and they should come up.

LMJ Scholarship Program
Sidney B. Williams scholarships
Donald W. Banner Diversity Scholarship
Law students Legal Opportunity Scholarship Fund,
Earl Warren Scholarship

And there are bunch more depending on whether you're male or female or a specific minority. These scholarships aren't guaranteed and they aren't offering a crazy amount but they're worth a shot, and if you accrew enough of them then they may even add up to a significant amount.

And on another note regarding debt-aversion, I'm not sure if you get into a t-14 that you should pass it up even if you have to pay sticker. As long as you do well enough (meaning median or better at the T-13) then you have a good chance of snagging big law especially with the diversity bump we would get during OCI. And although burnout in BL is real and you can't really set in stone how long you will work there, it still gives you the opportunity to really increase your earning potential in a way that has a lesser chance of happening from lower ranked schools.

I totally get if people don't want to take the chance with that crazy debt (because it's definitely crazy, I was seriously considering not going to Law school because of it) but there may be long term consequences which may limit your overall earning potential by going the safer route (t20-30 with a lot of scholly vs t-14 with little schoolly or sticker). And even thought that earning potential might be tied to a crazy debt load, if you can pay it off and break even you could be making six figures for the rest of your professional career.

Sorry for the long-ass post I just was struggling with the debt aspect of Law School myself recently, and I thought sharing this scholly info might help. I seriously encourage you guys to search for more scholly info and also take a look at this thread which speaks on the T-14 at sticker topic in more detail and gave me a different perspective on the matter.

viewtopic.php?f=5&t=262005

P.S. This is under the assumption that you wouldn't be able to break 6 figures without law school and that you're only considering law school as a grad school option.


Thats definitely good advice about outside scholarships, a few grand here and there means a lot when calculated with the interest from loans over 10 years. I definitely agree with the sentiment that the T-14 sets you up with the best opportunity to get BL and you don't even need to be above median for many schools. However, paying sticker even with big law would be a miserable experience, not only do people not last enough time to reasonably pay that off in BL, minorities tend to leave BL even sooner. Paying off 300k is no joke, especially in the prime of your life, and tuition does increase every year. Don't write off the strain on relationships, personal fulfillment, comfort, family goals with that much debt. I get it, I really do. I applied one cycle got into my dream schools including Harvard and others with decent scholarships and then decided to take a look at what this would mean for my happiness and I decided to give that all up, take the LSAT for a 3rd time and try again, I lived at home (I know thats not possible for everyone) saved up money, did better and got a much better scholarship, went T6, SEO, landed a 1l gig the whole 9 and most importantly, I'm much happier with my future financial outlook, of course this is all in hindsight, but when I say it was one of the hardest things that I have had to do, especially moving back home, working in a job that i didn't particularly like etc. and studying AGAIN for that awful test it was terrible. But, I would do it again. Everyone's situation isn't the same, but many URM's will be fully taking on this debt without much help from parents etc. and so seeing that half of the class has no scholarship might look normal (This is T14), but some people's situations are different, I've seen it myself.Just my 2 cents,



Bro you're preaching to the converted!! I actually want your out come to be honest and I'm going to take the lsat a 4th time ( I hate this test with every fiber of my being), and work for about 2-3 years (and hopefully save around 20-30k) in order to get closer to the outcome you had. But honestly your outcome is ideal and many URMs are going to have to face the hard decision of whether to go to a T-14 for sticker or going to a lower school for more scholly. I just wanted to present a different perspective because it really should be seen as an investment and shouldn't be shut off by default. Obviously if you have the option to sit out, retake, and reapply that will always be the superior option but many people are not willing to wait. I'm hoping this info helps some of those people. And there's some contention about the yield rate of URMS in big law. There have been many that posted in this forum that have said that URMS stay less often in big law than their non-URM counterparts because they are often offered more appealing exit options at a higher rate than their non-URMs counterparts which justify a lateral move rather than staying in the hell that is big law. You won't be making as much probably but you'd still have a good chance at making 6 figures. When a URM decides to lateral though is a personal one. If I were in the position of attending a t-14 at sticker and I got biglaw at market paying rate then I would do my best to stay there at least 3 years and live VERY frugally for those 3 years to pay off as much as I can (I'm used to living with very little in the way of money and even after half of my salary would go to loan payments I would still be making more than I do now :lol: ). This is all hoping for an ideal outcome but it's a risk versus reward type of situation. I just don't think people should unequivocally say that it isn't worth the risk because they may shut themselves out of an opportunity by being too risk-averse. Obviously the opposite worst possible case scenario is also possible but in reality we don't live our lives expecting the worst, we do our best and hope for the best. In the end, this is a very personal decision and I don't think there is necessarily a wrong answer (unless retaking is an option :lol: ).


For sure! It's such a tough decision, and I agree, my story, outcome, and situation is different from each and every person's personal story. I would absolutely call myself an optimistic person so that definitely made my decisions that much harder. I absolutely appreciate your perspective because it's needed, but it seems like you've come to a point where you have done some self reflection and are working toward the best case scenario for you, there's not much more you can do after that. I just want to make sure that other people do that too and forget about the prestige, how your family will look at you etc. and ask yourself truthfully, not artificially, if you would be okay with the decision you're about to make and how regardless of the financial ROI (because yes like you said it's an investment), what about the intangibles, quantify that and then revisit your calculations. And yea you're right about urm's leaving for more comfortable opportunities so that's a plus :)!


I agree with what y'all are saying and for a lot of people it does make sense to reapply and wait out a cycle - I just want to provide my take.

I'm applied last year with a lower LSAT while in grad school. I got into Chicago + Cornell + NW + vandy, waitlisted by Columbia + Emory + NYU, and rejected by Duke. I didn't apply to a large range of schools and got almost no money. Everyone on here basically told me to retake, blanket the t14, etc.

This cycle I have a higher LSAT, more WE, and overall better stats, and have received a lot of money from t20 schools and back accepted by cornell and vandy, etc. BUT I was also waitlisted by Chicago AND Northwestern unexpectedly. Last year with a "Worse" app I was held from NW and then accepted and straight admitted to Chicago. I still have most of the t14 to hear back from.

I do almost wish I just went to school last year. I regret passing up chicago at sticker & definitely will regret it if I don't get into a t6 this time. I think URM cycles are always unpredictable and moreso as reapplicants. Though there are definitely success stories I feel like there are downsides. I'm currently working a job just for my resume basically, and would probably rather be in school pursuing what I know I want to do in my life.

This is exactly what I feared. Everyone talks about reapplying but it isn't always the best option. I have always been afraid of reapplying and doing worse or just getting a few points more on my LSAT and getting the same results.

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Re: URM 2016-2017 Cycle Thread

Postby Hi-So - ArshavinFan » Wed Feb 15, 2017 7:28 pm

brinicolec wrote:
onlyhere4fun wrote:
P.S.I stalk this forum a lot and I've seen your stats and your current outcome this cycle and I think you really underperformed. I would absolutely not suggest that you take t-14 at sticker because you should definitely be able to get significant scholly at a few of them. If I were in your shoes I wouldn't even retake I would just work for another year fine tune my apps and apply on September 1st. (Obviously retake if you feel you can improve and you don't mind suffering through the test again but your score plus your urm status should get you a much better outcome than what you got this cycle).


Based on LSN, I don't really know if I think it's a matter of underperforming. I think this is a bad cycle for my GPA/LSAT combo. I also mark multiple races on apps (only one which is considered URM), wonder if that matters.



Umm OMG.....why why why why why.

Did you at least explain in detail in your PS. I'm sorry but your cycle has been UTTERLY perplexing, and I wouldnt be the least surprised if this helps explain some of it.

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Re: URM 2016-2017 Cycle Thread

Postby bunney_j » Wed Feb 15, 2017 8:05 pm

Hi-So - ArshavinFan wrote:
brinicolec wrote:
onlyhere4fun wrote:
P.S.I stalk this forum a lot and I've seen your stats and your current outcome this cycle and I think you really underperformed. I would absolutely not suggest that you take t-14 at sticker because you should definitely be able to get significant scholly at a few of them. If I were in your shoes I wouldn't even retake I would just work for another year fine tune my apps and apply on September 1st. (Obviously retake if you feel you can improve and you don't mind suffering through the test again but your score plus your urm status should get you a much better outcome than what you got this cycle).


Based on LSN, I don't really know if I think it's a matter of underperforming. I think this is a bad cycle for my GPA/LSAT combo. I also mark multiple races on apps (only one which is considered URM), wonder if that matters.



Umm OMG.....why why why why why.

Did you at least explain in detail in your PS. I'm sorry but your cycle has been UTTERLY perplexing, and I wouldnt be the least surprised if this helps explain some of it.


Read Gaia's URM threads, older cycles, etc. I think law schools abide by the "one drop" rule - sorry for dated/antebellum south language. A URM is a URM

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Re: URM 2016-2017 Cycle Thread

Postby brinicolec » Wed Feb 15, 2017 8:10 pm

Hi-So - ArshavinFan wrote:
brinicolec wrote:
onlyhere4fun wrote:
P.S.I stalk this forum a lot and I've seen your stats and your current outcome this cycle and I think you really underperformed. I would absolutely not suggest that you take t-14 at sticker because you should definitely be able to get significant scholly at a few of them. If I were in your shoes I wouldn't even retake I would just work for another year fine tune my apps and apply on September 1st. (Obviously retake if you feel you can improve and you don't mind suffering through the test again but your score plus your urm status should get you a much better outcome than what you got this cycle).


Based on LSN, I don't really know if I think it's a matter of underperforming. I think this is a bad cycle for my GPA/LSAT combo. I also mark multiple races on apps (only one which is considered URM), wonder if that matters.



Umm OMG.....why why why why why.

Did you at least explain in detail in your PS. I'm sorry but your cycle has been UTTERLY perplexing, and I wouldnt be the least surprised if this helps explain some of it.


If you're asking why I didn't only mark black, it's because I've never only marked black before and don't see it as "honest" of me to only mark black because I want a boost. I also wrote my DS about dealing with being multiracial but not necessarily having the tell-tale "mixed" features such as "mixed" hair and how that shaped how I identify.

I feel like you guys are more confused by my cycle than I am. Based on how this cycle looks (NOT previous cycles) it's not really coming as a surprise to me at all

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Re: URM 2016-2017 Cycle Thread

Postby brinicolec » Wed Feb 15, 2017 8:12 pm

@Mr_Chukes I agree. I asked about retaking in the MS9 thread and they basically said some schools may put you on the WL because they're worried about you not attending since you didn't attend the previous year but it just depends

Edit: autocorrect
Last edited by brinicolec on Wed Feb 15, 2017 8:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: URM 2016-2017 Cycle Thread

Postby bunney_j » Wed Feb 15, 2017 8:13 pm

[/quote]
This is exactly what I feared. Everyone talks about reapplying but it isn't always the best option. I have always been afraid of reapplying and doing worse or just getting a few points more on my LSAT and getting the same results.[/quote]



I think that for non-URM applicants it might be that straightforward. Like a 165 to a 168 (or in my case a 163 to mid 16X) might open more doors and push you into a better school. BUT because URMs have such unpredictable cycles and because I think our processes are highly holistic/dependent on competition with other URMs, it's not as simple as reapply with a better lsat - unless someone can break from 160s to past 170 I would think.

I do have like 8 schools to hear back from, but unless a t6 gives me money or I magically land Yale, I probably wont be that much happier with my choices than I was last year. I'm just happy I graduated from college early for my M.A. so I still feel like I'm "on track".

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Re: URM 2016-2017 Cycle Thread

Postby bunney_j » Wed Feb 15, 2017 8:16 pm

Mrocky2 wrote:Huh?!?!? Since when do you need two URM groups to be a URM, Idk the breakdown nor does it matter, but certainly if you're half black, 1/4 white and 1/4 Asian you're a URM


this was my impression as well...especially because you can qualify for NA even at like 1/8 (with a tribal card)

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Re: URM 2016-2017 Cycle Thread

Postby 20171lhopeful » Wed Feb 15, 2017 8:22 pm

bunney_j wrote:

This is exactly what I feared. Everyone talks about reapplying but it isn't always the best option. I have always been afraid of reapplying and doing worse or just getting a few points more on my LSAT and getting the same results.[/quote]



I think that for non-URM applicants it might be that straightforward. Like a 165 to a 168 (or in my case a 163 to mid 16X) might open more doors and push you into a better school. BUT because URMs have such unpredictable cycles and because I think our processes are highly holistic/dependent on competition with other URMs, it's not as simple as reapply with a better lsat - unless someone can break from 160s to past 170 I would think.

I do have like 8 schools to hear back from, but unless a t6 gives me money or I magically land Yale, I probably wont be that much happier with my choices than I was last year. I'm just happy I graduated from college early for my M.A. so I still feel like I'm "on track".[/quote]

Agreed.

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PrezRand

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Re: URM 2016-2017 Cycle Thread

Postby PrezRand » Wed Feb 15, 2017 9:46 pm

Idk if I could reapply after one cycle. My parents would be angry too.

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Re: URM 2016-2017 Cycle Thread

Postby playersball » Wed Feb 15, 2017 10:14 pm

20171lhopeful wrote:
bunney_j wrote:

This is exactly what I feared. Everyone talks about reapplying but it isn't always the best option. I have always been afraid of reapplying and doing worse or just getting a few points more on my LSAT and getting the same results.




I think that for non-URM applicants it might be that straightforward. Like a 165 to a 168 (or in my case a 163 to mid 16X) might open more doors and push you into a better school. BUT because URMs have such unpredictable cycles and because I think our processes are highly holistic/dependent on competition with other URMs, it's not as simple as reapply with a better lsat - unless someone can break from 160s to past 170 I would think.

I do have like 8 schools to hear back from, but unless a t6 gives me money or I magically land Yale, I probably wont be that much happier with my choices than I was last year. I'm just happy I graduated from college early for my M.A. so I still feel like I'm "on track".[/quote]

Agreed.[/quote]

Sorry for my ignorance, but what do you guys mean by dependent on competition with other URMs?

I will go ahead and check in too since my cycle is almost over!

MA URM
In at: USC, UCLA, Cornell, Georgetown, Duke, UVA, Berkeley, UMich, Chicago, NYU, Stanford
WL at Penn
Pending: H

It sounds like there are many of us having great cycles!

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Mr_Chukes

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Re: URM 2016-2017 Cycle Thread

Postby Mr_Chukes » Wed Feb 15, 2017 10:18 pm

PrezRand wrote:Idk if I could reapply after one cycle. My parents would be angry too.

My Mom is already telling her friends that I'm going to USC lmao.

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Re: URM 2016-2017 Cycle Thread

Postby Mr_Chukes » Wed Feb 15, 2017 10:26 pm

playersball wrote:
20171lhopeful wrote:
bunney_j wrote:

This is exactly what I feared. Everyone talks about reapplying but it isn't always the best option. I have always been afraid of reapplying and doing worse or just getting a few points more on my LSAT and getting the same results.




I think that for non-URM applicants it might be that straightforward. Like a 165 to a 168 (or in my case a 163 to mid 16X) might open more doors and push you into a better school. BUT because URMs have such unpredictable cycles and because I think our processes are highly holistic/dependent on competition with other URMs, it's not as simple as reapply with a better lsat - unless someone can break from 160s to past 170 I would think.

I do have like 8 schools to hear back from, but unless a t6 gives me money or I magically land Yale, I probably wont be that much happier with my choices than I was last year. I'm just happy I graduated from college early for my M.A. so I still feel like I'm "on track".


Agreed.[/quote]

Sorry for my ignorance, but what do you guys mean by dependent on competition with other URMs?

I will go ahead and check in too since my cycle is almost over!

MA URM
In at: USC, UCLA, Cornell, Georgetown, Duke, UVA, Berkeley, UMich, Chicago, NYU, Stanford
WL at Penn
Pending: H
[/quote]

It sounds like there are many of us having great cycles![/quote]
As a URM you are fighting other URMs for spots. I bet you have great stats as well lol. I think my cycle is going well. I just applied to see how it was and if I didn't get into any good schools I was gonna reapply. I like this cycle though.



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