URM 2016-2017 Cycle Thread Forum

[20171lhopeful]

This is exactly what I feared. Everyone talks about reapplying but it isn't always the best option. I have always been afraid of reapplying and doing worse or just getting a few points more on my LSAT and getting the same results.

I think that for non-URM applicants it might be that straightforward. Like a 165 to a 168 (or in my case a 163 to mid 16X) might open more doors and push you into a better school. BUT because URMs have such unpredictable cycles and because I think our processes are highly holistic/dependent on competition with other URMs, it's not as simple as reapply with a better lsat - unless someone can break from 160s to past 170 I would think.

I do have like 8 schools to hear back from, but unless a t6 gives me money or I magically land Yale, I probably wont be that much happier with my choices than I was last year. I'm just happy I graduated from college early for my M.A. so I still feel like I'm "on track".

Agreed.[/quote]

Sorry for my ignorance, but what do you guys mean by dependent on competition with other URMs?

I will go ahead and check in too since my cycle is almost over!

MA URM
In at: USC, UCLA, Cornell, Georgetown, Duke, UVA, Berkeley, UMich, Chicago, NYU, Stanford
WL at Penn
Pending: H

It sounds like there are many of us having great cycles![/quote]

As URMs I don't think we're being compared to non-URM applicants, but instead being judged against other URMs. I think it's not just about how good our stats are, but how good they are relative to other URM applicants.

[brinicolec]

Idk if I could reapply after one cycle. My parents would be angry too.

I'm pretty hypercritical of myself so my parents usually don't nag at me too much about anything. Perk: no nagging. Drawback: hypercriticalness lol

[bunney_j]

This is exactly what I feared. Everyone talks about reapplying but it isn't always the best option. I have always been afraid of reapplying and doing worse or just getting a few points more on my LSAT and getting the same results.

I think that for non-URM applicants it might be that straightforward. Like a 165 to a 168 (or in my case a 163 to mid 16X) might open more doors and push you into a better school. BUT because URMs have such unpredictable cycles and because I think our processes are highly holistic/dependent on competition with other URMs, it's not as simple as reapply with a better lsat - unless someone can break from 160s to past 170 I would think.

I do have like 8 schools to hear back from, but unless a t6 gives me money or I magically land Yale, I probably wont be that much happier with my choices than I was last year. I'm just happy I graduated from college early for my M.A. so I still feel like I'm "on track".

Agreed.

Sorry for my ignorance, but what do you guys mean by dependent on competition with other URMs?

I will go ahead and check in too since my cycle is almost over!

MA URM
In at: USC, UCLA, Cornell, Georgetown, Duke, UVA, Berkeley, UMich, Chicago, NYU, Stanford
WL at Penn
Pending: H
[/quote]

It sounds like there are many of us having great cycles![/quote]
As a URM you are fighting other URMs for spots. I bet you have great stats as well lol. I think my cycle is going well. I just applied to see how it was and if I didn't get into any good schools I was gonna reapply. I like this cycle though.[/quote]

Basically this. A few older threads have gone over the numbers/scores of URMs, and how relatively small our populations are compared to non-URMs. I think I saw the breakdown somewhere was that there were around 170 AA students at T14 schools, with 53 at Harvard and like 25 at Columbia (this was 2014 or something). I imagine for Hispanic URMs (MA + PR) the numbers are less and even less with NA. So basically the t14 fight for top URM applicants, and then there's a trickle down effect, with lower ranked schools taking URMs with lower and lower numbers to keep a diverse population.

But I've heard and I would imagine that for us as applicants we're not necessarily looked at against non-URM students, but against other students in our demographics/race, which makes sense. I think I said this earlier, but in an admissions book they mention how a non spanish speaking hispanic might be "diverse enough" for chicago or mich, but not for a school on either coast.

And congrats! When did you apply? I'm still waiting to hear back from basically all those minus the cali schools.

[dietcoke1]

This is exactly what I feared. Everyone talks about reapplying but it isn't always the best option. I have always been afraid of reapplying and doing worse or just getting a few points more on my LSAT and getting the same results.

I think that for non-URM applicants it might be that straightforward. Like a 165 to a 168 (or in my case a 163 to mid 16X) might open more doors and push you into a better school. BUT because URMs have such unpredictable cycles and because I think our processes are highly holistic/dependent on competition with other URMs, it's not as simple as reapply with a better lsat - unless someone can break from 160s to past 170 I would think.

I do have like 8 schools to hear back from, but unless a t6 gives me money or I magically land Yale, I probably wont be that much happier with my choices than I was last year. I'm just happy I graduated from college early for my M.A. so I still feel like I'm "on track".

Agreed.

Sorry for my ignorance, but what do you guys mean by dependent on competition with other URMs?

I will go ahead and check in too since my cycle is almost over!

MA URM
In at: USC, UCLA, Cornell, Georgetown, Duke, UVA, Berkeley, UMich, Chicago, NYU, Stanford
WL at Penn
Pending: H

It sounds like there are many of us having great cycles![/quote]
As a URM you are fighting other URMs for spots. I bet you have great stats as well lol. I think my cycle is going well. I just applied to see how it was and if I didn't get into any good schools I was gonna reapply. I like this cycle though.[/quote]

Basically this. A few older threads have gone over the numbers/scores of URMs, and how relatively small our populations are compared to non-URMs. I think I saw the breakdown somewhere was that there were around 170 AA students at T14 schools, with 53 at Harvard and like 25 at Columbia (this was 2014 or something). I imagine for Hispanic URMs (MA + PR) the numbers are less and even less with NA. So basically the t14 fight for top URM applicants, and then there's a trickle down effect, with lower ranked schools taking URMs with lower and lower numbers to keep a diverse population.

But I've heard and I would imagine that for us as applicants we're not necessarily looked at against non-URM students, but against other students in our demographics/race, which makes sense. I think I said this earlier, but in an admissions book they mention how a non spanish speaking hispanic might be "diverse enough" for chicago or mich, but not for a school on either coast.

And congrats! When did you apply? I'm still waiting to hear back from basically all those minus the cali schools.[/quote]

I think your right in that our cycle depends on which other URMs apply in our cycle. But for Hispanics, there are around like 300 or so that go to T14s. Around double the amount of AAs.

[brinicolec]

This is exactly what I feared. Everyone talks about reapplying but it isn't always the best option. I have always been afraid of reapplying and doing worse or just getting a few points more on my LSAT and getting the same results.

I think that for non-URM applicants it might be that straightforward. Like a 165 to a 168 (or in my case a 163 to mid 16X) might open more doors and push you into a better school. BUT because URMs have such unpredictable cycles and because I think our processes are highly holistic/dependent on competition with other URMs, it's not as simple as reapply with a better lsat - unless someone can break from 160s to past 170 I would think.

I do have like 8 schools to hear back from, but unless a t6 gives me money or I magically land Yale, I probably wont be that much happier with my choices than I was last year. I'm just happy I graduated from college early for my M.A. so I still feel like I'm "on track".

Agreed.

Sorry for my ignorance, but what do you guys mean by dependent on competition with other URMs?

I will go ahead and check in too since my cycle is almost over!

MA URM
In at: USC, UCLA, Cornell, Georgetown, Duke, UVA, Berkeley, UMich, Chicago, NYU, Stanford
WL at Penn
Pending: H

It sounds like there are many of us having great cycles!

As a URM you are fighting other URMs for spots. I bet you have great stats as well lol. I think my cycle is going well. I just applied to see how it was and if I didn't get into any good schools I was gonna reapply. I like this cycle though.[/quote]

Basically this. A few older threads have gone over the numbers/scores of URMs, and how relatively small our populations are compared to non-URMs. I think I saw the breakdown somewhere was that there were around 170 AA students at T14 schools, with 53 at Harvard and like 25 at Columbia (this was 2014 or something). I imagine for Hispanic URMs (MA + PR) the numbers are less and even less with NA. So basically the t14 fight for top URM applicants, and then there's a trickle down effect, with lower ranked schools taking URMs with lower and lower numbers to keep a diverse population.

But I've heard and I would imagine that for us as applicants we're not necessarily looked at against non-URM students, but against other students in our demographics/race, which makes sense. I think I said this earlier, but in an admissions book they mention how a non spanish speaking hispanic might be "diverse enough" for chicago or mich, but not for a school on either coast.

And congrats! When did you apply? I'm still waiting to hear back from basically all those minus the cali schools.[/quote]

I think your right in that our cycle depends on which other URMs apply in our cycle. But for Hispanics, there are around like 300 or so that go to T14s. Around double the amount of AAs.[/quote]

Yeah, AAs are rarities -- AA men even more than women

[bunney_j]

This is exactly what I feared. Everyone talks about reapplying but it isn't always the best option. I have always been afraid of reapplying and doing worse or just getting a few points more on my LSAT and getting the same results.

I think that for non-URM applicants it might be that straightforward. Like a 165 to a 168 (or in my case a 163 to mid 16X) might open more doors and push you into a better school. BUT because URMs have such unpredictable cycles and because I think our processes are highly holistic/dependent on competition with other URMs, it's not as simple as reapply with a better lsat - unless someone can break from 160s to past 170 I would think.

I do have like 8 schools to hear back from, but unless a t6 gives me money or I magically land Yale, I probably wont be that much happier with my choices than I was last year. I'm just happy I graduated from college early for my M.A. so I still feel like I'm "on track".

Agreed.

Sorry for my ignorance, but what do you guys mean by dependent on competition with other URMs?

I will go ahead and check in too since my cycle is almost over!

MA URM
In at: USC, UCLA, Cornell, Georgetown, Duke, UVA, Berkeley, UMich, Chicago, NYU, Stanford
WL at Penn
Pending: H

It sounds like there are many of us having great cycles!

As a URM you are fighting other URMs for spots. I bet you have great stats as well lol. I think my cycle is going well. I just applied to see how it was and if I didn't get into any good schools I was gonna reapply. I like this cycle though.[/quote]

Basically this. A few older threads have gone over the numbers/scores of URMs, and how relatively small our populations are compared to non-URMs. I think I saw the breakdown somewhere was that there were around 170 AA students at T14 schools, with 53 at Harvard and like 25 at Columbia (this was 2014 or something). I imagine for Hispanic URMs (MA + PR) the numbers are less and even less with NA. So basically the t14 fight for top URM applicants, and then there's a trickle down effect, with lower ranked schools taking URMs with lower and lower numbers to keep a diverse population.

But I've heard and I would imagine that for us as applicants we're not necessarily looked at against non-URM students, but against other students in our demographics/race, which makes sense. I think I said this earlier, but in an admissions book they mention how a non spanish speaking hispanic might be "diverse enough" for chicago or mich, but not for a school on either coast.

And congrats! When did you apply? I'm still waiting to hear back from basically all those minus the cali schools.[/quote]

I think your right in that our cycle depends on which other URMs apply in our cycle. But for Hispanics, there are around like 300 or so that go to T14s. Around double the amount of AAs.[/quote]

Yeah you're definitely right. I was self-centeredly thinking about only PRs in comparison (particulary bc so many of us self select and only apply to school in PR).

Thread on representation : http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... law+school

[bunney_j]

This is exactly what I feared. Everyone talks about reapplying but it isn't always the best option. I have always been afraid of reapplying and doing worse or just getting a few points more on my LSAT and getting the same results.

I think that for non-URM applicants it might be that straightforward. Like a 165 to a 168 (or in my case a 163 to mid 16X) might open more doors and push you into a better school. BUT because URMs have such unpredictable cycles and because I think our processes are highly holistic/dependent on competition with other URMs, it's not as simple as reapply with a better lsat - unless someone can break from 160s to past 170 I would think.

I do have like 8 schools to hear back from, but unless a t6 gives me money or I magically land Yale, I probably wont be that much happier with my choices than I was last year. I'm just happy I graduated from college early for my M.A. so I still feel like I'm "on track".

Agreed.

Sorry for my ignorance, but what do you guys mean by dependent on competition with other URMs?

I will go ahead and check in too since my cycle is almost over!

MA URM
In at: USC, UCLA, Cornell, Georgetown, Duke, UVA, Berkeley, UMich, Chicago, NYU, Stanford
WL at Penn
Pending: H

It sounds like there are many of us having great cycles!

As a URM you are fighting other URMs for spots. I bet you have great stats as well lol. I think my cycle is going well. I just applied to see how it was and if I didn't get into any good schools I was gonna reapply. I like this cycle though.

Basically this. A few older threads have gone over the numbers/scores of URMs, and how relatively small our populations are compared to non-URMs. I think I saw the breakdown somewhere was that there were around 170 AA students at T14 schools, with 53 at Harvard and like 25 at Columbia (this was 2014 or something). I imagine for Hispanic URMs (MA + PR) the numbers are less and even less with NA. So basically the t14 fight for top URM applicants, and then there's a trickle down effect, with lower ranked schools taking URMs with lower and lower numbers to keep a diverse population.

But I've heard and I would imagine that for us as applicants we're not necessarily looked at against non-URM students, but against other students in our demographics/race, which makes sense. I think I said this earlier, but in an admissions book they mention how a non spanish speaking hispanic might be "diverse enough" for chicago or mich, but not for a school on either coast.

And congrats! When did you apply? I'm still waiting to hear back from basically all those minus the cali schools.[/quote]

I think your right in that our cycle depends on which other URMs apply in our cycle. But for Hispanics, there are around like 300 or so that go to T14s. Around double the amount of AAs.[/quote]

Yeah, AAs are rarities -- AA men even more than women[/quote]


http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... law+school

The chart on the first page. It's interesting that about half have a larger percentage of AA students. UVA, PENN, Michigan, Duke, Columbia and Georgetown, and the rest are actually about equal besides Stanford Berkeley and Chicago which heavily have more Hispanic.

Does anyone know if this data is limited to PR/MA? Because if not there can't be that many more hispanics total at t14. It doesn't add up.

[Mr_Chukes]

I guess I'm a hot commodity lol.

[playersball]

As a URM you are fighting other URMs for spots. I bet you have great stats as well lol. I think my cycle is going well. I just applied to see how it was and if I didn't get into any good schools I was gonna reapply. I like this cycle though.

Basically this. A few older threads have gone over the numbers/scores of URMs, and how relatively small our populations are compared to non-URMs. I think I saw the breakdown somewhere was that there were around 170 AA students at T14 schools, with 53 at Harvard and like 25 at Columbia (this was 2014 or something). I imagine for Hispanic URMs (MA + PR) the numbers are less and even less with NA. So basically the t14 fight for top URM applicants, and then there's a trickle down effect, with lower ranked schools taking URMs with lower and lower numbers to keep a diverse population.

But I've heard and I would imagine that for us as applicants we're not necessarily looked at against non-URM students, but against other students in our demographics/race, which makes sense. I think I said this earlier, but in an admissions book they mention how a non spanish speaking hispanic might be "diverse enough" for chicago or mich, but not for a school on either coast.

And congrats! When did you apply? I'm still waiting to hear back from basically all those minus the cali schools.

I think your right in that our cycle depends on which other URMs apply in our cycle. But for Hispanics, there are around like 300 or so that go to T14s. Around double the amount of AAs.[/quote]

I definitely am aware of how severely underrepresented minorities are in the applicant pool and in the legal community overall. I just haven't seen how this is evidence to us competing one another for a limited number of spots (more limited than the overall applicant pool) in a zero-sum scenario, and not being compared to non-URM applicants. I haven't seen anything that would convince me that an adcomm would decide that they really like an applicant, but because they are URM they cannot accept them due to the quota already being met. The difference may lie in that this corresponds more to URM applicants with numbers well below median or 25th, whereas I am not necessarily referring to that scenario. In that case, I would think the unpredictability may lie in their URM status and their lack of competitiveness number-wise and we do not really have a way of knowing which one applies to what extent.

I may be totally off, granted I haven't done as much reading on the forums for URMs as I should, but I felt like being URM was just another feather on the scale in my favor throughout my cycle, albeit a really heavy feather. This is a really interesting discussion, and btw I applied late Oct-December.

Good luck to everyone! I hope there is more good news!

Edit to say: This quoting thing is all jacked up, my bad haha

[PrezRand]

I think AA's are a rarity because there are a lot who have good LSATs but low gpas relative to t14 students and other AA students just don't apply to law school. It sucks

[brinicolec]

I think AA's are a rarity because there are a lot who have good LSATs but low gpas relative to t14 students and other AA students just don't apply to law school. It sucks

I'm in that first group lol. I have what is probably a valid reason but not a good reason, if that makes any sense.

I think the cost is probably a deterrence for a lot of people too.

[PrezRand]

I think AA's are a rarity because there are a lot who have good LSATs but low gpas relative to t14 students and other AA students just don't apply to law school. It sucks

I'm in that first group lol. I have what is probably a valid reason but not a good reason, if that makes any sense.

I think the cost is probably a deterrence for a lot of people too.

I hope to be in that first group. Law school isn't as appealing anymore to a lot of people

[brinicolec]

I think AA's are a rarity because there are a lot who have good LSATs but low gpas relative to t14 students and other AA students just don't apply to law school. It sucks

I'm in that first group lol. I have what is probably a valid reason but not a good reason, if that makes any sense.

I think the cost is probably a deterrence for a lot of people too.

I hope to be in that first group. Law school isn't as appealing anymore to a lot of people

Yeah. Job outlook is weird. I think also, for people who feel passionate about law because of injustices or something, it's kind of crappy because most work associated with that within the field doesn't pay well.

[PrezRand]

I think AA's are a rarity because there are a lot who have good LSATs but low gpas relative to t14 students and other AA students just don't apply to law school. It sucks

I'm in that first group lol. I have what is probably a valid reason but not a good reason, if that makes any sense.

I think the cost is probably a deterrence for a lot of people too.

I hope to be in that first group. Law school isn't as appealing anymore to a lot of people

Yeah. Job outlook is weird. I think also, for people who feel passionate about law because of injustices or something, it's kind of crappy because most work associated with that within the field doesn't pay well.

I remember one of my concerns about going to law school was that it would be 3 years without any work experience and zero earnings unless you get a summer associate gig. If it was 2 years like Obama said it should be, I think more people would be interested.

[Mr_Chukes]

I think AA's are a rarity because there are a lot who have good LSATs but low gpas relative to t14 students and other AA students just don't apply to law school. It sucks

I heard from one of my professors that most AA's who graduate have sub 3.0 gpas.

[brinicolec]

I think AA's are a rarity because there are a lot who have good LSATs but low gpas relative to t14 students and other AA students just don't apply to law school. It sucks

I heard from one of my professors that most AA's who graduate have sub 3.0 gpas.

Yikes

[PrezRand]

I think AA's are a rarity because there are a lot who have good LSATs but low gpas relative to t14 students and other AA students just don't apply to law school. It sucks

I heard from one of my professors that most AA's who graduate have sub 3.0 gpas.

Might be true

[Mr_Chukes]

I think AA's are a rarity because there are a lot who have good LSATs but low gpas relative to t14 students and other AA students just don't apply to law school. It sucks

I heard from one of my professors that most AA's who graduate have sub 3.0 gpas.

Might be true

When he told me this, It made sense why schools would pick many AA's with High GPA's.

[PrezRand]

I think AA's are a rarity because there are a lot who have good LSATs but low gpas relative to t14 students and other AA students just don't apply to law school. It sucks

I heard from one of my professors that most AA's who graduate have sub 3.0 gpas.

Might be true

When he told me this, It made sense why schools would pick many AA's with High GPA's.

And lower Lsats. It makes sense. But I also think schools usually prefer students with higher gpas anyways.

[texcellence]

http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... law+school

The chart on the first page. It's interesting that about half have a larger percentage of AA students. UVA, PENN, Michigan, Duke, Columbia and Georgetown, and the rest are actually about equal besides Stanford Berkeley and Chicago which heavily have more Hispanic.

Does anyone know if this data is limited to PR/MA? Because if not there can't be that many more hispanics total at t14. It doesn't add up.

I feel pretty confident this does not only include MA/PR. This is totally based on my obsessive data-crunching of the last couple of cycles and observations at BL firm events and discussions with other POC law students/lawyers, but it seems like most if not all T14 schools except Berkeley/UCLA will still count white-passing, wealthy Colombians/Venezuelans/Cubans or the non-Spanish-speaking 1/4 MAs without strong cultural ties as "URM Hispanics." Trust me there aren't 300+ people in T14s from el barrio.

[alpha kenny body]

I guess I'm a hot commodity lol.

I think I mentioned this a page or two ago after reading the newest Spivey data. It's true, though.

[Stephylynette]

I think AA's are a rarity because there are a lot who have good LSATs but low gpas relative to t14 students and other AA students just don't apply to law school. It sucks

I heard from one of my professors that most AA's who graduate have sub 3.0 gpas.

Might be true

When he told me this, It made sense why schools would pick many AA's with High GPA's.

+1. I think that's why I've had such success this cycle. My LSAT is a mess but my GPA is solid. I think it's helped me a great deal. My low LSAT has almost been a non-factor.

[Hi-So - ArshavinFan]

I think AA's are a rarity because there are a lot who have good LSATs but low gpas relative to t14 students and other AA students just don't apply to law school. It sucks

I heard from one of my professors that most AA's who graduate have sub 3.0 gpas.

Might be true

When he told me this, It made sense why schools would pick many AA's with High GPA's.

And lower Lsats. It makes sense. But I also think schools usually prefer students with higher gpas anyways.

Um, is this really true though? I mean jnwa's cycle from last year kinda throws this in the water. And i highly doubt that Higher GPA could offset a low LSAT THAT much. I mean yes, schools will take you, but I also think for an AA male, school will take a AA MAle with a 165+ any day of the week as long as GPA 3.0+ with some fantastic essays.

I should know, i put in a quick fast app in LATE january, early feb to duke and got priority reserve when I know they actually rejected a URM candidate.

I think the bigger problem is that there just arent enough AA's who score over 165+ on this test. Brinicole still got into 2 T-14s as is it, and will probably get into more.

[PrezRand]

I think AA's are a rarity because there are a lot who have good LSATs but low gpas relative to t14 students and other AA students just don't apply to law school. It sucks

I heard from one of my professors that most AA's who graduate have sub 3.0 gpas.

Might be true

When he told me this, It made sense why schools would pick many AA's with High GPA's.

And lower Lsats. It makes sense. But I also think schools usually prefer students with higher gpas anyways.

Um, is this really true though? I mean jnwa's cycle from last year kinda throws this in the water. And i highly doubt that Higher GPA could offset a low LSAT THAT much. I mean yes, schools will take you, but I also think for an AA male, school will take a AA MAle with a 165+ any day of the week as long as GPA 3.0+ with some fantastic essays.

I should know, i put in a quick fast app in LATE january, early feb to duke and got priority reserve when I know they actually rejected a URM candidate.

I think the bigger problem is that there just arent enough AA's who score over 165+ on this test. Brinicole still got into 2 T-14s as is it, and will probably get into more.

It's easier to get into law school being a URM with a 3.7+ than a 173. Jnwa didn't crack HYS. Someone with a 3.8 163 could do that.

[Hi-So - ArshavinFan]

I think AA's are a rarity because there are a lot who have good LSATs but low gpas relative to t14 students and other AA students just don't apply to law school. It sucks
It's easier to get into law school being a URM with a 3.7+ than a 173. Jnwa didn't crack HYS. Someone with a 3.8 163 could do that.

The key thing here is COULD.

First things first, you are deluded in thinking that if a Black/AA applicant got into Harvard with a low GPA, he would post it on LSN. I know one who has, and he definitely didnt.

Let's look at the facts: http://www.abarequireddisclosures.org/
If you look up Harvard for 2016, we know for a fact 33 AAs got in for their 1L year. We dont know all their GPA ( i only know one, but his GPA low, LSAT high - but he went to an Ivy though)

I'm willing to argue that most of the URM that list their stats or info on TLS/LSN are not Ivy league ( or even T15 schools on USNWR) - this really alters a LOT for their rest of us. For anybody else, it's not as possible. But it is indeed possible.

the one constant here, is that we dont know anything! We only can guess, but to really know is difficult.