URM 2015-2016 Cycle Thread

(BLS, URM status, non-traditional, GLBT)

You would turn down YSH for...(choose up to 4)

Hamilton @ CLS
42
20%
Ruby @ Chicago
29
14%
AnBryce/RTK @ NYU
26
13%
Levy @ Penn (LOL, no URM in history has ever gotten one)
13
6%
Dillard/Darrow/Full Scholarship @ UVA/Mich/Berk
25
12%
Mordecai/Full Scholly/Hughes/Full Scholly @ Duke/NW/Cornell/GULC
23
11%
Full @ Texas/UCLA/Vandy
10
5%
F* that dude...literally nothing could keep me from YSH. Debt be damned!
37
18%
 
Total votes: 205

Nlawsing
Posts: 107
Joined: Wed Dec 02, 2015 7:53 am

Re: URM 2015-2016 Cycle Thread

Postby Nlawsing » Thu Apr 07, 2016 10:04 am

ih8makingscreennames wrote:
Harvette wrote:How many hls waitlists here? Looks like the list is bigger than ever this cycle?


Waitlisted without a JS1, but unbothered. I don't think I wrote in here that I got the call from Texas 2 days ago. I thought it would be inappropriate to withdraw over the phone, but I wasn't going to withdraw early bc I was going to make them answer me.

Now Northwestern is the only school I have left.


+1 I am hoping for some Waitlist movement from HLS around mid to late May . But regardless I would've already deposited at another school by then.

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fliptrip
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Joined: Sun Oct 04, 2015 9:10 pm

Re: URM 2015-2016 Cycle Thread

Postby fliptrip » Thu Apr 07, 2016 10:18 am

ert2sk wrote:Hey guys! I posted this in the UVA Law Class of 2019 thread, but I wanted to see if any of you had advice for me as well.... Please see below!!

HELP! After the open house, I was pretty much set on UVA Law. My choice was between UVA & Michigan, both at sticker.

Then, I received a need-based scholarship from Michigan for 60k+ (total for all three years). UVA has made it clear they are not negotiating with me which I thought was ok since both Michigan and UVA are ranked #8. I visited Ann Arbor last week, and absolutely loved it and I'm 90% sure I'll attend. However, I'm having second thoughts about not attending UVA. I'm from Virginia (and actually went to UVA for undergrad) so I'm a little nervous about leaving this area to go freeze to death in Ann Arbor. Plus, I feel like UVA's employment stats are slightly better than Michigan's. But what do you guys think, am I making the right decision by taking the money and running?

Also, I don't really have a strong preference for which market I'd like to work in post graduation. I just want a (biglaw) job.

PLEASE HELP. Any advice/tips anyone can offer would be greatly appreciated!


Christ Almighty, get on the brakes!!!!!!!!!

UVA at sticker is a no-go proposition. So, don't think for a second you're leaving something good on the table by not taking that deal. Michigan at 60k off is on the razor's edge, but it is defensible at that cost. You'll owe $203k on graduation. Let me cook you a debt steak and you can see if you can handle how it tastes:

Monthly (straight, 10 year am): $2,336
Remaining Gross for housing + other debt (BL salary): $3,333
Minimum salary to stay on 10-year am: ~$95,000/year

What do ya think?

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magnum_law
Posts: 193
Joined: Wed Sep 30, 2015 5:32 pm

Re: URM 2015-2016 Cycle Thread

Postby magnum_law » Thu Apr 07, 2016 10:21 am

ert2sk wrote:Hey guys! I posted this in the UVA Law Class of 2019 thread, but I wanted to see if any of you had advice for me as well.... Please see below!!

HELP! After the open house, I was pretty much set on UVA Law. My choice was between UVA & Michigan, both at sticker.

Then, I received a need-based scholarship from Michigan for 60k+ (total for all three years). UVA has made it clear they are not negotiating with me which I thought was ok since both Michigan and UVA are ranked #8. I visited Ann Arbor last week, and absolutely loved it and I'm 90% sure I'll attend. However, I'm having second thoughts about not attending UVA. I'm from Virginia (and actually went to UVA for undergrad) so I'm a little nervous about leaving this area to go freeze to death in Ann Arbor. Plus, I feel like UVA's employment stats are slightly better than Michigan's. But what do you guys think, am I making the right decision by taking the money and running?

Also, I don't really have a strong preference for which market I'd like to work in post graduation. I just want a (biglaw) job.

PLEASE HELP. Any advice/tips anyone can offer would be greatly appreciated!


Wouldn't in-state tuition at UVA make this an easy choice?

ETA: nevermind. Just checked what the discount would be and its a MISERABLE 3k/ year.

ert2sk
Posts: 30
Joined: Tue Oct 22, 2013 2:51 pm

Re: URM 2015-2016 Cycle Thread

Postby ert2sk » Thu Apr 07, 2016 10:42 am

fliptrip wrote:
ert2sk wrote:Hey guys! I posted this in the UVA Law Class of 2019 thread, but I wanted to see if any of you had advice for me as well.... Please see below!!

HELP! After the open house, I was pretty much set on UVA Law. My choice was between UVA & Michigan, both at sticker.

Then, I received a need-based scholarship from Michigan for 60k+ (total for all three years). UVA has made it clear they are not negotiating with me which I thought was ok since both Michigan and UVA are ranked #8. I visited Ann Arbor last week, and absolutely loved it and I'm 90% sure I'll attend. However, I'm having second thoughts about not attending UVA. I'm from Virginia (and actually went to UVA for undergrad) so I'm a little nervous about leaving this area to go freeze to death in Ann Arbor. Plus, I feel like UVA's employment stats are slightly better than Michigan's. But what do you guys think, am I making the right decision by taking the money and running?

Also, I don't really have a strong preference for which market I'd like to work in post graduation. I just want a (biglaw) job.

PLEASE HELP. Any advice/tips anyone can offer would be greatly appreciated!


Christ Almighty, get on the brakes!!!!!!!!!

UVA at sticker is a no-go proposition. So, don't think for a second you're leaving something good on the table by not taking that deal. Michigan at 60k off is on the razor's edge, but it is defensible at that cost. You'll owe $203k on graduation. Let me cook you a debt steak and you can see if you can handle how it tastes:

Monthly (straight, 10 year am): $2,336
Remaining Gross for housing + other debt (BL salary): $3,333
Minimum salary to stay on 10-year am: ~$95,000/year

What do ya think?



Is that owing 203k on graduation what would happen at UMich or Virginia? Just need some clarification!

ert2sk
Posts: 30
Joined: Tue Oct 22, 2013 2:51 pm

Re: URM 2015-2016 Cycle Thread

Postby ert2sk » Thu Apr 07, 2016 10:45 am

magnum_law wrote:
ert2sk wrote:Hey guys! I posted this in the UVA Law Class of 2019 thread, but I wanted to see if any of you had advice for me as well.... Please see below!!

HELP! After the open house, I was pretty much set on UVA Law. My choice was between UVA & Michigan, both at sticker.

Then, I received a need-based scholarship from Michigan for 60k+ (total for all three years). UVA has made it clear they are not negotiating with me which I thought was ok since both Michigan and UVA are ranked #8. I visited Ann Arbor last week, and absolutely loved it and I'm 90% sure I'll attend. However, I'm having second thoughts about not attending UVA. I'm from Virginia (and actually went to UVA for undergrad) so I'm a little nervous about leaving this area to go freeze to death in Ann Arbor. Plus, I feel like UVA's employment stats are slightly better than Michigan's. But what do you guys think, am I making the right decision by taking the money and running?

Also, I don't really have a strong preference for which market I'd like to work in post graduation. I just want a (biglaw) job.

PLEASE HELP. Any advice/tips anyone can offer would be greatly appreciated!


Wouldn't in-state tuition at UVA make this an easy choice?

ETA: nevermind. Just checked what the discount would be and its a MISERABLE 3k/ year.


Yeah, unfortunately no but I guess I do have to factor in travel to Ann Arbor from Virginia a couple times every year.

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fliptrip
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Re: URM 2015-2016 Cycle Thread

Postby fliptrip » Thu Apr 07, 2016 10:45 am

ert2sk wrote:

Is that owing 203k on graduation what would happen at UMich or Virginia? Just need some clarification!


That's what you'd owe at Michigan, but can you help me out? Do you know Michigan's actual Cost of Attendance figure for out of state for 16-17? I did my first calculation based on the 15-16 number.

FWIW, you'd owe close to $300,000 by taking sticker at UVA. That's too expensive for the outcomes.

ert2sk
Posts: 30
Joined: Tue Oct 22, 2013 2:51 pm

Re: URM 2015-2016 Cycle Thread

Postby ert2sk » Thu Apr 07, 2016 10:53 am

fliptrip wrote:
ert2sk wrote:

Is that owing 203k on graduation what would happen at UMich or Virginia? Just need some clarification!


That's what you'd owe at Michigan, but can you help me out? Do you know Michigan's actual Cost of Attendance figure for out of state for 16-17? I did my first calculation based on the 15-16 number.

FWIW, you'd owe close to $300,000 by taking sticker at UVA. That's too expensive for the outcomes.


Okay now it makes sense! And yes they haven't released the 16-17 figures yet, but at their ASW, they said it would be close to 77,000 per year out of state. I totally agree :shock: 300k is a hard pill to swallow. It's definitely not worth it! I live in Richmond, and most of my family is here, so it would be very convenient. But unfortunately, money talks!

User avatar
fliptrip
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Re: URM 2015-2016 Cycle Thread

Postby fliptrip » Thu Apr 07, 2016 10:57 am

Well, honestly, neither option is great on the numbers side. Let me give you Michigan's figures again, but we'll use that ~$77k figure:

You'd owe $212k at graduation
Your monthly will be $2,450.

Also, you're cutting your surplus value to only $10k, meaning you're not getting a ton of value for your investment.

Did they share updated employment statistics? If so, can you tell me their latest big law (100+ attys) + federal clerkship numbers? That changes the calculus as well.

ert2sk
Posts: 30
Joined: Tue Oct 22, 2013 2:51 pm

Re: URM 2015-2016 Cycle Thread

Postby ert2sk » Thu Apr 07, 2016 11:44 am

fliptrip wrote:Well, honestly, neither option is great on the numbers side. Let me give you Michigan's figures again, but we'll use that ~$77k figure:

You'd owe $212k at graduation
Your monthly will be $2,450.

Also, you're cutting your surplus value to only $10k, meaning you're not getting a ton of value for your investment.

Did they share updated employment statistics? If so, can you tell me their latest big law (100+ attys) + federal clerkship numbers? That changes the calculus as well.


For the class of 2014 (which is the most updated info they have on the website) 18.7% of grads went to clerkships, 53.2% to law firms. Out of a graduating class of 390, 199 went into private practice with 169 going into biglaw. Doesn't seem so bad to me.

ert2sk
Posts: 30
Joined: Tue Oct 22, 2013 2:51 pm

Re: URM 2015-2016 Cycle Thread

Postby ert2sk » Thu Apr 07, 2016 11:51 am

fliptrip wrote:Well, honestly, neither option is great on the numbers side. Let me give you Michigan's figures again, but we'll use that ~$77k figure:

You'd owe $212k at graduation
Your monthly will be $2,450.

Also, you're cutting your surplus value to only $10k, meaning you're not getting a ton of value for your investment.

Did they share updated employment statistics? If so, can you tell me their latest big law (100+ attys) + federal clerkship numbers? That changes the calculus as well.


I'd disagree with not getting a ton of value for my investment either way though. As the child of immigrant parents raised by a single mom (and I have absolutely no money) law school in general has the potential to change the trajectory of my life. And getting into a top ten law school, no matter what is said on here, certainly puts me in a much better position than most law students in this country. With that being said, even the possibility of 'maybe' making 160k in three years I think, is certainly valuable in and of itself. So yeah, I actually do think I am getting a ton of value (becoming a lawyer, having the potential to make more money than me or my family has ever seen) for my 200k investment.

Budfox55
Posts: 301
Joined: Fri Mar 27, 2015 6:05 pm

Re: URM 2015-2016 Cycle Thread

Postby Budfox55 » Thu Apr 07, 2016 12:10 pm

ert2sk wrote:
fliptrip wrote:Well, honestly, neither option is great on the numbers side. Let me give you Michigan's figures again, but we'll use that ~$77k figure:

You'd owe $212k at graduation
Your monthly will be $2,450.

Also, you're cutting your surplus value to only $10k, meaning you're not getting a ton of value for your investment.

Did they share updated employment statistics? If so, can you tell me their latest big law (100+ attys) + federal clerkship numbers? That changes the calculus as well.


I'd disagree with not getting a ton of value for my investment either way though. As the child of immigrant parents raised by a single mom (and I have absolutely no money) law school in general has the potential to change the trajectory of my life. And getting into a top ten law school, no matter what is said on here, certainly puts me in a much better position than most law students in this country. With that being said, even the possibility of 'maybe' making 160k in three years I think, is certainly valuable in and of itself. So yeah, I actually do think I am getting a ton of value (becoming a lawyer, having the potential to make more money than me or my family has ever seen) for my 200k investment.


Do you have work experience? Can't get into it now bc I'm working and don't have time and I'm sure others will opine, but this is a dangerous way of thinking. I'm also the child of immigrants and I understand your mentality. But as someone said before me, put on the brakes.

BillClinton Jr
Posts: 306
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Re: URM 2015-2016 Cycle Thread

Postby BillClinton Jr » Thu Apr 07, 2016 12:20 pm

I have to agree with fliptrip on this one: those numbers are just too high but if you "HAVE" to pick one, it's Michigan easy. I hate the constant "retake/reaaply" that you hear on TLS but this may be a time where I have to be that annoying voice.

Budfox55
Posts: 301
Joined: Fri Mar 27, 2015 6:05 pm

Re: URM 2015-2016 Cycle Thread

Postby Budfox55 » Thu Apr 07, 2016 12:52 pm

Budfox55 wrote:
ert2sk wrote:
fliptrip wrote:Well, honestly, neither option is great on the numbers side. Let me give you Michigan's figures again, but we'll use that ~$77k figure:

You'd owe $212k at graduation
Your monthly will be $2,450.

Also, you're cutting your surplus value to only $10k, meaning you're not getting a ton of value for your investment.

Did they share updated employment statistics? If so, can you tell me their latest big law (100+ attys) + federal clerkship numbers? That changes the calculus as well.


I'd disagree with not getting a ton of value for my investment either way though. As the child of immigrant parents raised by a single mom (and I have absolutely no money) law school in general has the potential to change the trajectory of my life. And getting into a top ten law school, no matter what is said on here, certainly puts me in a much better position than most law students in this country. With that being said, even the possibility of 'maybe' making 160k in three years I think, is certainly valuable in and of itself. So yeah, I actually do think I am getting a ton of value (becoming a lawyer, having the potential to make more money than me or my family has ever seen) for my 200k investment.


Do you have work experience? Can't get into it now bc I'm working and don't have time and I'm sure others will opine, but this is a dangerous way of thinking. I'm also the child of immigrants and I understand your mentality. But as someone said before me, put on the brakes.


Have you done research on biglaw outcomes? Most people don't make it past five years. Many leave within three years. Its an up and out system and after five years, most people start getting pushed OUT. You will most likely not stick around long enough to make partner. What does this mean? It means that your stint in biglaw will be your highest salary at least for a while, possibly in your life. What does this really mean? It means that after 3 years you may well end up in a job where your making 70k or less while still having to serve $2,450/month. The alternative is to stick around in biglaw for at least 7 or so years. It is not guaranteed that you will make it that long. Big law is miserable and the vast majority of people do not stick around longer than 3 years because they choose too. It's because they HAVE to. You will not have a life and if you have a SO or attempt to get into a relationship, get married, etc, do not underestimate how much your work will deteriorate your relationship. There are countless big law associates/partners who barely see their partners and kids. It is not a way to live your life for a considerable time period.

I 100% understand your mentality. I did a year of investment banking after graduating college which has similar and in most cases worse hours than biglaw. I knew how awful the lifestyle would be, but I said that all these people did not understand. I came from poverty. I was raised in a single-parent household and would be making more than 4x than what my mother made. I thought that all of the people complaining were just privileged folks who've never had to struggle for anything in their lives. That they didn't understand what it meant to not be entirely sure when your next meal is going to come from. I was wrong As a poor immigrant you're drilled into you that you should work as hard as possible to get the highest paying/most prestigious job possible. These people were right. My experiences and upbringing made no difference. I thought the value of making that much money would outweigh the associated costs of the lifestyle. It did not . for other people in finance who came from similar backgrounds as us...it did not for them either. You will most likely be as miserable as everyone else is.

I didn't really take this into account, but you also have to remember your HAPPINESS. You are also in a completely different situation than what your family understands. Im sure for most people that they probably know, they had to sacrifice all semblance of happiness at the opportunity to be middle or upper-middle class. You DON'T. You are smart. You have options. You can go to one of these schools with a lot less debt. Its possible to have your cake and eat it too. You can make decent money, have a good life, and have a good lifestyle. Please don't undervalue your happiness. If you're KJD, I would urge you to get work experience and retake. Apply next cycle, and take more $$$. That way you will have the ability to leave biglaw after 3 years if you so choose and if you decide that biglaw is the path for you, you can make that decision without the noose of debt around your neck and you'll be able to use the money that you would have used on debt to build your nest egg and even give back to your family if you'd like.

Apologies for any spelling/grammar mistakes and my stream of consciousness-like rant. Busted this out quickly at work.

ert2sk
Posts: 30
Joined: Tue Oct 22, 2013 2:51 pm

Re: URM 2015-2016 Cycle Thread

Postby ert2sk » Thu Apr 07, 2016 1:31 pm

Budfox55 wrote:
ert2sk wrote:
fliptrip wrote:Well, honestly, neither option is great on the numbers side. Let me give you Michigan's figures again, but we'll use that ~$77k figure:

You'd owe $212k at graduation
Your monthly will be $2,450.

Also, you're cutting your surplus value to only $10k, meaning you're not getting a ton of value for your investment.

Did they share updated employment statistics? If so, can you tell me their latest big law (100+ attys) + federal clerkship numbers? That changes the calculus as well.


I'd disagree with not getting a ton of value for my investment either way though. As the child of immigrant parents raised by a single mom (and I have absolutely no money) law school in general has the potential to change the trajectory of my life. And getting into a top ten law school, no matter what is said on here, certainly puts me in a much better position than most law students in this country. With that being said, even the possibility of 'maybe' making 160k in three years I think, is certainly valuable in and of itself. So yeah, I actually do think I am getting a ton of value (becoming a lawyer, having the potential to make more money than me or my family has ever seen) for my 200k investment.


Do you have work experience? Can't get into it now bc I'm working and don't have time and I'm sure others will opine, but this is a dangerous way of thinking. I'm also the child of immigrants and I understand your mentality. But as someone said before me, put on the brakes.


Two years work experience as a Paralegal.

ert2sk
Posts: 30
Joined: Tue Oct 22, 2013 2:51 pm

Re: URM 2015-2016 Cycle Thread

Postby ert2sk » Thu Apr 07, 2016 1:33 pm

Budfox55 wrote:
Budfox55 wrote:
ert2sk wrote:
fliptrip wrote:Well, honestly, neither option is great on the numbers side. Let me give you Michigan's figures again, but we'll use that ~$77k figure:

You'd owe $212k at graduation
Your monthly will be $2,450.

Also, you're cutting your surplus value to only $10k, meaning you're not getting a ton of value for your investment.

Did they share updated employment statistics? If so, can you tell me their latest big law (100+ attys) + federal clerkship numbers? That changes the calculus as well.


I'd disagree with not getting a ton of value for my investment either way though. As the child of immigrant parents raised by a single mom (and I have absolutely no money) law school in general has the potential to change the trajectory of my life. And getting into a top ten law school, no matter what is said on here, certainly puts me in a much better position than most law students in this country. With that being said, even the possibility of 'maybe' making 160k in three years I think, is certainly valuable in and of itself. So yeah, I actually do think I am getting a ton of value (becoming a lawyer, having the potential to make more money than me or my family has ever seen) for my 200k investment.


Do you have work experience? Can't get into it now bc I'm working and don't have time and I'm sure others will opine, but this is a dangerous way of thinking. I'm also the child of immigrants and I understand your mentality. But as someone said before me, put on the brakes.


Have you done research on biglaw outcomes? Most people don't make it past five years. Many leave within three years. Its an up and out system and after five years, most people start getting pushed OUT. You will most likely not stick around long enough to make partner. What does this mean? It means that your stint in biglaw will be your highest salary at least for a while, possibly in your life. What does this really mean? It means that after 3 years you may well end up in a job where your making 70k or less while still having to serve $2,450/month. The alternative is to stick around in biglaw for at least 7 or so years. It is not guaranteed that you will make it that long. Big law is miserable and the vast majority of people do not stick around longer than 3 years because they choose too. It's because they HAVE to. You will not have a life and if you have a SO or attempt to get into a relationship, get married, etc, do not underestimate how much your work will deteriorate your relationship. There are countless big law associates/partners who barely see their partners and kids. It is not a way to live your life for a considerable time period.

I 100% understand your mentality. I did a year of investment banking after graduating college which has similar and in most cases worse hours than biglaw. I knew how awful the lifestyle would be, but I said that all these people did not understand. I came from poverty. I was raised in a single-parent household and would be making more than 4x than what my mother made. I thought that all of the people complaining were just privileged folks who've never had to struggle for anything in their lives. That they didn't understand what it meant to not be entirely sure when your next meal is going to come from. I was wrong As a poor immigrant you're drilled into you that you should work as hard as possible to get the highest paying/most prestigious job possible. These people were right. My experiences and upbringing made no difference. I thought the value of making that much money would outweigh the associated costs of the lifestyle. It did not . for other people in finance who came from similar backgrounds as us...it did not for them either. You will most likely be as miserable as everyone else is.

I didn't really take this into account, but you also have to remember your HAPPINESS. You are also in a completely different situation than what your family understands. Im sure for most people that they probably know, they had to sacrifice all semblance of happiness at the opportunity to be middle or upper-middle class. You DON'T. You are smart. You have options. You can go to one of these schools with a lot less debt. Its possible to have your cake and eat it too. You can make decent money, have a good life, and have a good lifestyle. Please don't undervalue your happiness. If you're KJD, I would urge you to get work experience and retake. Apply next cycle, and take more $$$. That way you will have the ability to leave biglaw after 3 years if you so choose and if you decide that biglaw is the path for you, you can make that decision without the noose of debt around your neck and you'll be able to use the money that you would have used on debt to build your nest egg and even give back to your family if you'd like.

Apologies for any spelling/grammar mistakes and my stream of consciousness-like rant. Busted this out quickly at work.



Thanks for all the input. I've definitely done my research when it comes to law school and big law outcomes in general. (I've been on TLS since 2013...but thanks for all of your opinions.)

ert2sk
Posts: 30
Joined: Tue Oct 22, 2013 2:51 pm

Re: URM 2015-2016 Cycle Thread

Postby ert2sk » Thu Apr 07, 2016 1:42 pm

BillClinton Jr wrote:I have to agree with fliptrip on this one: those numbers are just too high but if you "HAVE" to pick one, it's Michigan easy. I hate the constant "retake/reaaply" that you hear on TLS but this may be a time where I have to be that annoying voice.


Thanks for this, but unfortunately this was my "retake/reaaply" cycle. I've been around this block before. lol.

Budfox55
Posts: 301
Joined: Fri Mar 27, 2015 6:05 pm

Re: URM 2015-2016 Cycle Thread

Postby Budfox55 » Thu Apr 07, 2016 2:13 pm

ert2sk wrote:
Budfox55 wrote:
Budfox55 wrote:
ert2sk wrote:
fliptrip wrote:Well, honestly, neither option is great on the numbers side. Let me give you Michigan's figures again, but we'll use that ~$77k figure:

You'd owe $212k at graduation
Your monthly will be $2,450.

Also, you're cutting your surplus value to only $10k, meaning you're not getting a ton of value for your investment.

Did they share updated employment statistics? If so, can you tell me their latest big law (100+ attys) + federal clerkship numbers? That changes the calculus as well.


I'd disagree with not getting a ton of value for my investment either way though. As the child of immigrant parents raised by a single mom (and I have absolutely no money) law school in general has the potential to change the trajectory of my life. And getting into a top ten law school, no matter what is said on here, certainly puts me in a much better position than most law students in this country. With that being said, even the possibility of 'maybe' making 160k in three years I think, is certainly valuable in and of itself. So yeah, I actually do think I am getting a ton of value (becoming a lawyer, having the potential to make more money than me or my family has ever seen) for my 200k investment.


Do you have work experience? Can't get into it now bc I'm working and don't have time and I'm sure others will opine, but this is a dangerous way of thinking. I'm also the child of immigrants and I understand your mentality. But as someone said before me, put on the brakes.


Have you done research on biglaw outcomes? Most people don't make it past five years. Many leave within three years. Its an up and out system and after five years, most people start getting pushed OUT. You will most likely not stick around long enough to make partner. What does this mean? It means that your stint in biglaw will be your highest salary at least for a while, possibly in your life. What does this really mean? It means that after 3 years you may well end up in a job where your making 70k or less while still having to serve $2,450/month. The alternative is to stick around in biglaw for at least 7 or so years. It is not guaranteed that you will make it that long. Big law is miserable and the vast majority of people do not stick around longer than 3 years because they choose too. It's because they HAVE to. You will not have a life and if you have a SO or attempt to get into a relationship, get married, etc, do not underestimate how much your work will deteriorate your relationship. There are countless big law associates/partners who barely see their partners and kids. It is not a way to live your life for a considerable time period.

I 100% understand your mentality. I did a year of investment banking after graduating college which has similar and in most cases worse hours than biglaw. I knew how awful the lifestyle would be, but I said that all these people did not understand. I came from poverty. I was raised in a single-parent household and would be making more than 4x than what my mother made. I thought that all of the people complaining were just privileged folks who've never had to struggle for anything in their lives. That they didn't understand what it meant to not be entirely sure when your next meal is going to come from. I was wrong As a poor immigrant you're drilled into you that you should work as hard as possible to get the highest paying/most prestigious job possible. These people were right. My experiences and upbringing made no difference. I thought the value of making that much money would outweigh the associated costs of the lifestyle. It did not . for other people in finance who came from similar backgrounds as us...it did not for them either. You will most likely be as miserable as everyone else is.

I didn't really take this into account, but you also have to remember your HAPPINESS. You are also in a completely different situation than what your family understands. Im sure for most people that they probably know, they had to sacrifice all semblance of happiness at the opportunity to be middle or upper-middle class. You DON'T. You are smart. You have options. You can go to one of these schools with a lot less debt. Its possible to have your cake and eat it too. You can make decent money, have a good life, and have a good lifestyle. Please don't undervalue your happiness. If you're KJD, I would urge you to get work experience and retake. Apply next cycle, and take more $$$. That way you will have the ability to leave biglaw after 3 years if you so choose and if you decide that biglaw is the path for you, you can make that decision without the noose of debt around your neck and you'll be able to use the money that you would have used on debt to build your nest egg and even give back to your family if you'd like.

Apologies for any spelling/grammar mistakes and my stream of consciousness-like rant. Busted this out quickly at work.



Thanks for all the input. I've definitely done my research when it comes to law school and big law outcomes in general. (I've been on TLS since 2013...but thanks for all of your opinions.)


Ahh I see. This is what happens when you go on TLS during your 2 minutes of down time. I read the child of poor immigrant part and it hit a soft spot since I'm one myself and got a little worked up lol. I would still just be very wary of biglaw w.r.t. thinking that its not that bad because you may have gone through some shit growing up.

ert2sk
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Re: URM 2015-2016 Cycle Thread

Postby ert2sk » Thu Apr 07, 2016 2:29 pm

Budfox55 wrote:
ert2sk wrote:
Budfox55 wrote:
Budfox55 wrote:
ert2sk wrote:
fliptrip wrote:Well, honestly, neither option is great on the numbers side. Let me give you Michigan's figures again, but we'll use that ~$77k figure:

You'd owe $212k at graduation
Your monthly will be $2,450.

Also, you're cutting your surplus value to only $10k, meaning you're not getting a ton of value for your investment.

Did they share updated employment statistics? If so, can you tell me their latest big law (100+ attys) + federal clerkship numbers? That changes the calculus as well.


I'd disagree with not getting a ton of value for my investment either way though. As the child of immigrant parents raised by a single mom (and I have absolutely no money) law school in general has the potential to change the trajectory of my life. And getting into a top ten law school, no matter what is said on here, certainly puts me in a much better position than most law students in this country. With that being said, even the possibility of 'maybe' making 160k in three years I think, is certainly valuable in and of itself. So yeah, I actually do think I am getting a ton of value (becoming a lawyer, having the potential to make more money than me or my family has ever seen) for my 200k investment.


Do you have work experience? Can't get into it now bc I'm working and don't have time and I'm sure others will opine, but this is a dangerous way of thinking. I'm also the child of immigrants and I understand your mentality. But as someone said before me, put on the brakes.


Have you done research on biglaw outcomes? Most people don't make it past five years. Many leave within three years. Its an up and out system and after five years, most people start getting pushed OUT. You will most likely not stick around long enough to make partner. What does this mean? It means that your stint in biglaw will be your highest salary at least for a while, possibly in your life. What does this really mean? It means that after 3 years you may well end up in a job where your making 70k or less while still having to serve $2,450/month. The alternative is to stick around in biglaw for at least 7 or so years. It is not guaranteed that you will make it that long. Big law is miserable and the vast majority of people do not stick around longer than 3 years because they choose too. It's because they HAVE to. You will not have a life and if you have a SO or attempt to get into a relationship, get married, etc, do not underestimate how much your work will deteriorate your relationship. There are countless big law associates/partners who barely see their partners and kids. It is not a way to live your life for a considerable time period.

I 100% understand your mentality. I did a year of investment banking after graduating college which has similar and in most cases worse hours than biglaw. I knew how awful the lifestyle would be, but I said that all these people did not understand. I came from poverty. I was raised in a single-parent household and would be making more than 4x than what my mother made. I thought that all of the people complaining were just privileged folks who've never had to struggle for anything in their lives. That they didn't understand what it meant to not be entirely sure when your next meal is going to come from. I was wrong As a poor immigrant you're drilled into you that you should work as hard as possible to get the highest paying/most prestigious job possible. These people were right. My experiences and upbringing made no difference. I thought the value of making that much money would outweigh the associated costs of the lifestyle. It did not . for other people in finance who came from similar backgrounds as us...it did not for them either. You will most likely be as miserable as everyone else is.

I didn't really take this into account, but you also have to remember your HAPPINESS. You are also in a completely different situation than what your family understands. Im sure for most people that they probably know, they had to sacrifice all semblance of happiness at the opportunity to be middle or upper-middle class. You DON'T. You are smart. You have options. You can go to one of these schools with a lot less debt. Its possible to have your cake and eat it too. You can make decent money, have a good life, and have a good lifestyle. Please don't undervalue your happiness. If you're KJD, I would urge you to get work experience and retake. Apply next cycle, and take more $$$. That way you will have the ability to leave biglaw after 3 years if you so choose and if you decide that biglaw is the path for you, you can make that decision without the noose of debt around your neck and you'll be able to use the money that you would have used on debt to build your nest egg and even give back to your family if you'd like.

Apologies for any spelling/grammar mistakes and my stream of consciousness-like rant. Busted this out quickly at work.



Thanks for all the input. I've definitely done my research when it comes to law school and big law outcomes in general. (I've been on TLS since 2013...but thanks for all of your opinions.)


Ahh I see. This is what happens when you go on TLS during your 2 minutes of down time. I read the child of poor immigrant part and it hit a soft spot since I'm one myself and got a little worked up lol. I would still just be very wary of biglaw w.r.t. thinking that its not that bad because you may have gone through some shit growing up.


Haha it would hit a soft spot with me as well! Hoping and praying to be accepted into SEO for the summer so I can get a glimpse of what working in big law would actually be like. I work for a medium sized firm in a non-major legal market now, so it would be nice to see how the New York lawyers are living, working, surviving, etc. lol.

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fliptrip
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Re: URM 2015-2016 Cycle Thread

Postby fliptrip » Thu Apr 07, 2016 2:50 pm

ert2sk wrote:
BillClinton Jr wrote:I have to agree with fliptrip on this one: those numbers are just too high but if you "HAVE" to pick one, it's Michigan easy. I hate the constant "retake/reaaply" that you hear on TLS but this may be a time where I have to be that annoying voice.


Thanks for this, but unfortunately this was my "retake/reaaply" cycle. I've been around this block before. lol.


Alright, you came asking if you were making a mistake taking Michigan over UVA in your situation and the answer is no. A major issue with advice on TLS is that it has inherent limitations. Basically I/we can do one of two things:

1. Give you some information based on an objective analysis, so what I try to do with expected payoffs and net values, etc. I
2. How we feel about your choice. A close cousin of "what I would do in your situation."

So, when I say you're only getting $10k in value by going to Michigan and you counter by talking about how meaningful it will be for you to go to a school as good as Michigan or UVA, we are talking about different things. I, the internet rando, cannot put a value on that for you. Who am I to tell you how much intrinsic value this choice will have for you? If it's immense, then terrific and I wish you nothing but the best of luck. That doesn't make my objective analysis wrong, however.

I think it's helpful though to ask yourself how you would feel if you end up in the worst-case scenario. Missing out on biglaw is a real possibility at Michigan in a way that it's not at a place like Harvard or Columbia. If you miss, and end up in something else where you aren't making six figures and probably something in the $60-$70k range more likely, will you be okay with that? Depending on what exactly the job is, you may not qualify for Michigan's LRAP or PSLF forgiveness, so you could be stuck trying to service $212k in debt on a $60k salary. How in the world would you make a $2,400 monthly payment? You wouldn't. You'd re-am your loan to 25-years, but that's going to only cut your payment to $1,478, which is serviceable in the strictest sense but will leave you only $650/month to spend on housing. So, re-amming your loan isn't going to work. You'll have to go on IBR, which will drive your payment down to $527/month, but with no PSLF forgiveness, you'll have to do that for 25 years to have the balance forgiven. But at $527/month, your loan balance is actually growing over time. It's growing and compounding so much over time that by the time you get ready to have your loan forgiven, you'll owe $745,000. The tax nuclear bomb that will drop on you that day will be $253,000.

That's not me being shrill and telling you that no school is worth $160k or that I am literally ill every time I look at any bill that says I owe something. That's just realistic numbers and objective analysis. Keep in mind that the road to that worst case scenario begins with your 33% chance of not getting biglaw at Michigan.

So, how would you feel if ^^ happens? Would you be alright or would you not?

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Iam3hunna
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Re: URM 2015-2016 Cycle Thread

Postby Iam3hunna » Thu Apr 07, 2016 3:00 pm

^^^^ You really have a way with words, flip. Go ahead and ruin his dreams why don't ya!?

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fliptrip
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Re: URM 2015-2016 Cycle Thread

Postby fliptrip » Thu Apr 07, 2016 3:10 pm

Iam3hunna wrote:^^^^ You really have a way with words, flip. Go ahead and ruin his dreams why don't ya!?


You know I'm not trying to crush anything, just trying to outline what we are facing a little better. Let me be clear, that downside scenario exists for all of us regardless of what school we are going to. The only thing that varies is your odds of ending up there and how costly that worst case scenario is.

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Iam3hunna
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Re: URM 2015-2016 Cycle Thread

Postby Iam3hunna » Thu Apr 07, 2016 3:15 pm

fliptrip wrote:
Iam3hunna wrote:^^^^ You really have a way with words, flip. Go ahead and ruin his dreams why don't ya!?


You know I'm not trying to crush anything, just trying to outline what we are facing a little better. Let me be clear, that downside scenario exists for all of us regardless of what school we are going to. The only thing that varies is your odds of ending up there and how costly that worst case scenario is.


I know I know. It was mainly just a shot at how vivid you tell it. If this law school thing fails, you can always become the next Stephen King.

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fliptrip
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Re: URM 2015-2016 Cycle Thread

Postby fliptrip » Thu Apr 07, 2016 3:23 pm

Iam3hunna wrote:
fliptrip wrote:
Iam3hunna wrote:^^^^ You really have a way with words, flip. Go ahead and ruin his dreams why don't ya!?


You know I'm not trying to crush anything, just trying to outline what we are facing a little better. Let me be clear, that downside scenario exists for all of us regardless of what school we are going to. The only thing that varies is your odds of ending up there and how costly that worst case scenario is.


I know I know. It was mainly just a shot at how vivid you tell it. If this law school thing fails, you can always become the next Stephen King.


LOL, if anyone around here is really interested in horror stories, I'll start sharing vignettes from my love life.

ih8makingscreennames
Posts: 173
Joined: Tue Feb 23, 2016 6:34 pm

Re: URM 2015-2016 Cycle Thread

Postby ih8makingscreennames » Thu Apr 07, 2016 3:32 pm

fliptrip wrote:
ert2sk wrote:
BillClinton Jr wrote:I have to agree with fliptrip on this one: those numbers are just too high but if you "HAVE" to pick one, it's Michigan easy. I hate the constant "retake/reaaply" that you hear on TLS but this may be a time where I have to be that annoying voice.


Thanks for this, but unfortunately this was my "retake/reaaply" cycle. I've been around this block before. lol.


Alright, you came asking if you were making a mistake taking Michigan over UVA in your situation and the answer is no. A major issue with advice on TLS is that it has inherent limitations. Basically I/we can do one of two things:

1. Give you some information based on an objective analysis, so what I try to do with expected payoffs and net values, etc. I
2. How we feel about your choice. A close cousin of "what I would do in your situation."

So, when I say you're only getting $10k in value by going to Michigan and you counter by talking about how meaningful it will be for you to go to a school as good as Michigan or UVA, we are talking about different things. I, the internet rando, cannot put a value on that for you. Who am I to tell you how much intrinsic value this choice will have for you? If it's immense, then terrific and I wish you nothing but the best of luck. That doesn't make my objective analysis wrong, however.

I think it's helpful though to ask yourself how you would feel if you end up in the worst-case scenario. Missing out on biglaw is a real possibility at Michigan in a way that it's not at a place like Harvard or Columbia. If you miss, and end up in something else where you aren't making six figures and probably something in the $60-$70k range more likely, will you be okay with that? Depending on what exactly the job is, you may not qualify for Michigan's LRAP or PSLF forgiveness, so you could be stuck trying to service $212k in debt on a $60k salary. How in the world would you make a $2,400 monthly payment? You wouldn't. You'd re-am your loan to 25-years, but that's going to only cut your payment to $1,478, which is serviceable in the strictest sense but will leave you only $650/month to spend on housing. So, re-amming your loan isn't going to work. You'll have to go on IBR, which will drive your payment down to $527/month, but with no PSLF forgiveness, you'll have to do that for 25 years to have the balance forgiven. But at $527/month, your loan balance is actually growing over time. It's growing and compounding so much over time that by the time you get ready to have your loan forgiven, you'll owe $745,000. The tax nuclear bomb that will drop on you that day will be $253,000.

That's not me being shrill and telling you that no school is worth $160k or that I am literally ill every time I look at any bill that says I owe something. That's just realistic numbers and objective analysis. Keep in mind that the road to that worst case scenario begins with your 33% chance of not getting biglaw at Michigan.

So, how would you feel if ^^ happens? Would you be alright or would you not?


This bought an actual tear to my eyes, and I quite literally grabbed the necklace that I have around my neck.

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Iam3hunna
Posts: 194
Joined: Wed Jul 29, 2015 9:36 pm

Re: URM 2015-2016 Cycle Thread

Postby Iam3hunna » Thu Apr 07, 2016 3:37 pm

ih8makingscreennames wrote:This bought an actual tear to my eyes, and I quite literally grabbed the necklace that I have around my neck.


This man knows what I'm talking about.




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