Newbie to this forum

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PrezRand
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Re: Newbie to this forum

Postby PrezRand » Tue Jun 16, 2015 8:16 pm

Kinky John wrote:
PrezRand wrote:Why is it that people always come to the conclusion that politics is only about being a politician?


This is too good to be true :lol:

You do realize there is more to politics than just politicians right? Or did you just assume...

artistar
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Re: Newbie to this forum

Postby artistar » Tue Jun 16, 2015 8:30 pm

Kinky John, stop being mean. I've run into like three mean moments from you on the forum today and the day isn't even over yet.

Prez - You do you. I like that you are so focused as driven at 19. I think that thinking about the LSAT (and GRE) right now is a great idea, as is the advice from other posters to concentrate the hardest on your GPA. If you practice test w/ the LSAT and get good scores, getting the LSAT out of the way early seems like a smart idea.

Good luck.

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PrezRand
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Re: Newbie to this forum

Postby PrezRand » Tue Jun 16, 2015 9:02 pm

artistar wrote:Kinky John, stop being mean. I've run into like three mean moments from you on the forum today and the day isn't even over yet.

Prez - You do you. I like that you are so focused as driven at 19. I think that thinking about the LSAT (and GRE) right now is a great idea, as is the advice from other posters to concentrate the hardest on your GPA. If you practice test w/ the LSAT and get good scores, getting the LSAT out of the way early seems like a smart idea.

Good luck.

Literally the first positive comment. Thanks

PoopNpants
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Re: Newbie to this forum

Postby PoopNpants » Tue Jun 16, 2015 9:26 pm

PrezRand wrote:
artistar wrote:Kinky John, stop being mean. I've run into like three mean moments from you on the forum today and the day isn't even over yet.

Prez - You do you. I like that you are so focused as driven at 19. I think that thinking about the LSAT (and GRE) right now is a great idea, as is the advice from other posters to concentrate the hardest on your GPA. If you practice test w/ the LSAT and get good scores, getting the LSAT out of the way early seems like a smart idea.

Good luck.

Literally the first positive comment. Thanks


Damn, I thought my comment was kinda positive OP :x

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PrezRand
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Re: Newbie to this forum

Postby PrezRand » Tue Jun 16, 2015 10:12 pm

PoopNpants wrote:
PrezRand wrote:
artistar wrote:Kinky John, stop being mean. I've run into like three mean moments from you on the forum today and the day isn't even over yet.

Prez - You do you. I like that you are so focused as driven at 19. I think that thinking about the LSAT (and GRE) right now is a great idea, as is the advice from other posters to concentrate the hardest on your GPA. If you practice test w/ the LSAT and get good scores, getting the LSAT out of the way early seems like a smart idea.

Good luck.

Literally the first positive comment. Thanks


Damn, I thought my comment was kinda positive OP :x

You too

Budfox55
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Re: Newbie to this forum

Postby Budfox55 » Tue Jun 16, 2015 10:33 pm

Yea I don't get why everyone's being so mean to the OP, he's 19 years old. Also, he's right in that many people who go or who want to go (myself included) to law school do so because they are interested in and want to influence policy in some capacity.

To try and help you to clear some things up, there are many ways in which a JD can help you to influence policy. Being a judge, litigation for a PI/non-profit, government, working at a think tank(although this usually requires a degree in another field as well or if not then decent work experience.), etc. I think what other posters are trying to get at is that most of these fields involve actual lawyering, so if you don't understand and think you will enjoy the practice of law, then this may not be the best route. Especially if you want to do something like advocacy, where the JD is not necessary and you don't waste time and money studying law.

Quick aside, I saw a poster mention how you originally wrote about pursuing law if getting to the phd in Econ is too rigorous. From being in TLS and seeing other posters react to similar statements, I'm assuming that the poster was essentially mocking you for your naivity because they probably think that getting into law school is so rigorous in itself. Before anyone else tries to attack this part of the OPs post, I went to a top undergrad where one of my majors was economics and know people who went on to get top Econ PhDs...I would argue that it is objectively MUCH more difficult to get into a top 10 Econ PhD program than it is to get into a top 10 law school. Like it's not even close.

OP to answer your original question, I would personally wait a while. What the other posters are getting at is that, depending on your timeline, studying for the LSAT will be the equivalent of a part time job or 1 or 2 extra classes. Just due to time constraints, this can have a negative impact on your GPA. You can take the LSAT whenever you want, but you only have one shot at your undergrad GPA so you're better off focusing on maximizing your GPA. Also, dude you're in college, have fun. It's only 4 years. I get thinking ahead and all that, but I'm working full time now and trust me, it fucking sucks. I would do anything to be 19 and in college again. If you study for the lsat, combined with your class load, other ECs you're involved in, and preparing/interviewing for internships, you'll honestly have no fucking life. If I were going to take it in undergrad, I would wait until those times that I had no classes like in between semesters or internships and study like 40 hours a week during those periods. Either way, you're only 19. Take some time to do some research and see if law is really for you and enjoy your time because it only comes by once!

Budfox55
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Re: Newbie to this forum

Postby Budfox55 » Tue Jun 16, 2015 10:37 pm

Budfox55 wrote:Yea I don't get why everyone's being so mean to the OP, he's 19 years old. Also, he's right in that many people who go or who want to go (myself included) to law school do so because they are interested in and want to influence policy in some capacity.

To try and help you to clear some things up, there are many ways in which a JD can help you to influence policy. Being a judge, litigation for a PI/non-profit, government, working at a think tank(although this usually requires a degree in another field as well or if not then decent work experience.), etc. I think what other posters are trying to get at is that most of these fields involve actual lawyering, so if you don't understand and think you will enjoy the practice of law, then this may not be the best route. Especially if you want to do something like advocacy, where the JD is not necessary and you don't waste time and money studying law.

Quick aside, I saw a poster mention how you originally wrote about pursuing law if getting to the phd in Econ is too rigorous. From being in TLS and seeing other posters react to similar statements, I'm assuming that the poster was essentially mocking you for your naivity because they probably think that getting into law school is so rigorous in itself. Before anyone else tries to attack this part of the OPs post, I went to a top undergrad where one of my majors was economics and know people who went on to get top Econ PhDs...I would argue that it is objectively MUCH more difficult to get into a top 10 Econ PhD program than it is to get into a top 10 law school. Like it's not even close.

OP to answer your original question, I would personally wait a while. What the other posters are getting at is that, depending on your timeline, studying for the LSAT will be the equivalent of a part time job or 1 or 2 extra classes. Just due to time constraints, this can have a negative impact on your GPA. You can take the LSAT whenever you want, but you only have one shot at your undergrad GPA so you're better off focusing on maximizing your GPA. Also, dude you're in college, have fun. It's only 4 years. I get thinking ahead and all that, but I'm working full time now and trust me, it fucking sucks. I would do anything to be 19 and in college again. If you study for the lsat, combined with your class load, other ECs you're involved in, and preparing/interviewing for internships, you'll honestly have no fucking life. If I were going to take it in undergrad, I would wait until those times that I had no classes like in between semesters or internships and study like 40 hours a week during those periods. Either way, you're only 19. Take some time to do some research and see if law is really for you and enjoy your time because it only comes by once!


Also, I wrote this on my iPhone while watching the finals and didn't really read it over so TLS please chiiiiiill about any grammar or spelling mistakes. I know how some of you guys attack that kind of shit like a bunch of hungry piranhas :D .

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stego
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Re: Newbie to this forum

Postby stego » Wed Jun 17, 2015 1:15 am

Budfox55 wrote:Quick aside, I saw a poster mention how you originally wrote about pursuing law if getting to the phd in Econ is too rigorous. From being in TLS and seeing other posters react to similar statements, I'm assuming that the poster was essentially mocking you for your naivity because they probably think that getting into law school is so rigorous in itself. Before anyone else tries to attack this part of the OPs post, I went to a top undergrad where one of my majors was economics and know people who went on to get top Econ PhDs...I would argue that it is objectively MUCH more difficult to get into a top 10 Econ PhD program than it is to get into a top 10 law school. Like it's not even close.


This.
It is WAY harder to get into a top PhD program in most fields than into a top law school. A typical PhD program is fully funded (both tuition and cost of living) for 5 years, so the PhD students are costing the school money.
Law schools make bank off most of their students and give full rides to a fraction of them to game the USNWR numbers.

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PrezRand
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Re: Newbie to this forum

Postby PrezRand » Wed Jun 17, 2015 1:27 am

Yeah, I basically deduced that the posters didn't realize that PhD programs are easily leagues ahead of law school in terms of getting accepted. Getting a good GRE score isn't enough for those programs.

Again, a big thanks to everyone who gave me advice.

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Kinky John
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Re: Newbie to this forum

Postby Kinky John » Wed Jun 17, 2015 5:26 pm

Thanks for introducing yourself, you're a really special guy master of deduction.

Is that nice enough?
Last edited by Kinky John on Wed Jun 17, 2015 5:58 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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BasilHallward
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Re: Newbie to this forum

Postby BasilHallward » Wed Jun 17, 2015 5:51 pm

I like your ambition, OP, but, it seems that you are getting a little ahead of yourself (as most 19 year-olds do). There is nothing inherently wrong with taking the LSAT, IF you can handle juggling classes with INTENSE LSAT preparation. The GRE is, most would argue, a cakewalk when compared with the LSAT. The LSAT also holds much more weight in the application process. The GRE is not a big deal, save for the quantitative section, if you are interested in a high-level economics graduate program. But if you want to go to Chicago, LSE, Oxford, or MIT for Economics (top-level schools) you are best served to FOCUS on your undergrad coursework and taking upper-level mathematics/econometrics courses. Your undergrad performance, the institution that you attended, and the rigor of your major will be extremely important to top-level graduate programs. Don't worry about the GRE, you can take that in your senior year on a random day. After you have taken Linear Algebra and Differential Equations, the Quantitative section on the GRE will be the easiest thing you've ever set your eyes on, I promise you.

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BasilHallward
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Re: Newbie to this forum

Postby BasilHallward » Wed Jun 17, 2015 5:56 pm

PrezRand wrote:Yeah, I basically deduced that the posters didn't realize that PhD programs are easily leagues ahead of law school in terms of getting accepted. Getting a good GRE score isn't enough for those programs.

Again, a big thanks to everyone who gave me advice.



This is because the GRE is, again, MOST would say, a much easier test. The time constraints are very light and the math is very SAT-like, with some exceptions. The vocab crap is almost completely useless. The LSAT on the other hand is a SKILLS-based test. Many don't like it, but it does separate the men from the boys, or the women from the girls, as they say.

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PrezRand
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Re: Newbie to this forum

Postby PrezRand » Wed Jun 17, 2015 8:17 pm

BasilHallward wrote:
PrezRand wrote:Yeah, I basically deduced that the posters didn't realize that PhD programs are easily leagues ahead of law school in terms of getting accepted. Getting a good GRE score isn't enough for those programs.

Again, a big thanks to everyone who gave me advice.



This is because the GRE is, again, MOST would say, a much easier test. The time constraints are very light and the math is very SAT-like, with some exceptions. The vocab crap is almost completely useless. The LSAT on the other hand is a SKILLS-based test. Many don't like it, but it does separate the men from the boys, or the women from the girls, as they say.

That's not the reason. Even if the GRE was more difficult, these top PhD programs usually want you to have significant research experience. In some cases, they want you to be published. I'm not trying to get ahead of myself in any way. Sure the tests are hard. That's my main motivation for studying a year ahead. I know I can juggle school and study for both tests without worrying about my grades declining. This isn't me being arrogant either.

Kinky John wrote:Thanks for introducing yourself, you're a really special guy master of deduction.

Is that nice enough?

Why are you on my case with your sardonic tone? Did I offend you?

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BasilHallward
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Re: Newbie to this forum

Postby BasilHallward » Wed Jun 17, 2015 9:07 pm

PrezRand wrote:
BasilHallward wrote:
PrezRand wrote:Yeah, I basically deduced that the posters didn't realize that PhD programs are easily leagues ahead of law school in terms of getting accepted. Getting a good GRE score isn't enough for those programs.

Again, a big thanks to everyone who gave me advice.



This is because the GRE is, again, MOST would say, a much easier test. The time constraints are very light and the math is very SAT-like, with some exceptions. The vocab crap is almost completely useless. The LSAT on the other hand is a SKILLS-based test. Many don't like it, but it does separate the men from the boys, or the women from the girls, as they say.

That's not the reason. Even if the GRE was more difficult, these top PhD programs usually want you to have significant research experience. In some cases, they want you to be published. I'm not trying to get ahead of myself in any way. Sure the tests are hard. That's my main motivation for studying a year ahead. I know I can juggle school and study for both tests without worrying about my grades declining. This isn't me being arrogant either.

Kinky John wrote:Thanks for introducing yourself, you're a really special guy master of deduction.

Is that nice enough?

Why are you on my case with your sardonic tone? Did I offend you?


Fair enough. Good luck. I'm just suggesting that if you are focused on Masters/PhD Econ, you should really FOCUS on that. I was a Econ (BS) major with a 3.95 at state university and didn't crack LSE or Oxford. I got into Mannheim (6th strongest in Europe). Getting into these top programs is tough. Law school is EASY in that you just need the numbers, but the LSAT is a hell of an obstacle for many.

What is your undergrad major?

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PrezRand
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Re: Newbie to this forum

Postby PrezRand » Wed Jun 17, 2015 9:21 pm

BasilHallward wrote:
PrezRand wrote:
BasilHallward wrote:
PrezRand wrote:Yeah, I basically deduced that the posters didn't realize that PhD programs are easily leagues ahead of law school in terms of getting accepted. Getting a good GRE score isn't enough for those programs.

Again, a big thanks to everyone who gave me advice.



This is because the GRE is, again, MOST would say, a much easier test. The time constraints are very light and the math is very SAT-like, with some exceptions. The vocab crap is almost completely useless. The LSAT on the other hand is a SKILLS-based test. Many don't like it, but it does separate the men from the boys, or the women from the girls, as they say.

That's not the reason. Even if the GRE was more difficult, these top PhD programs usually want you to have significant research experience. In some cases, they want you to be published. I'm not trying to get ahead of myself in any way. Sure the tests are hard. That's my main motivation for studying a year ahead. I know I can juggle school and study for both tests without worrying about my grades declining. This isn't me being arrogant either.

Kinky John wrote:Thanks for introducing yourself, you're a really special guy master of deduction.

Is that nice enough?

Why are you on my case with your sardonic tone? Did I offend you?


Fair enough. Good luck. I'm just suggesting that if you are focused on Masters/PhD Econ, you should really FOCUS on that. I was a Econ (BS) major with a 3.95 at state university and didn't crack LSE or Oxford. I got into Mannheim (6th strongest in Europe). Getting into these top programs is tough. Law school is EASY in that you just need the numbers, but the LSAT is a hell of an obstacle for many.

What is your undergrad major?

I'm going to be honest. Because I know it's nearly impossible to get into any PhD program in Economics or Political Economy, that makes me seriously interested in pursuing law school because I can get involved in policy through there and still get a masters. It's pretty difficult to get a good job out of a PhD program if your school is ranked lower. The job market for professors is tough and any job working for the federal government requiring a PhD or some level of graduate school would also be difficult to get. I don't have as much of a problem with this when I go to law school. I do agree with you in that law school focuses more on academics.


I'm currently double majoring in Political Science and Economics with a double minor in Philosophy and National Security

Indifference
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Re: Newbie to this forum

Postby Indifference » Thu Jun 18, 2015 10:25 am

Just going to throw in my two cents here...

As others have said, it's great you are thinking ahead. That said...

Yes, the LSAT will be extremely important, and it is great you are thinking ahead, but at a 3.5 (I believe that's what you said, yes?) your primary goal if you want to crack the top schools should be to destroy every single class you have between now and graduation, with no distractions. Same goes for any MPP/MPA/PHD dreams you may have. When it comes to taking the GRE or the LSAT, you will have more than enough time to study for those. Your primary concern should be your GPA. You can take tests again, you can add work and research experience, but you cannot bring up a GPA after the fact. Simply put, prioritize. Grades are more important right now, so focus on those. After you graduate, if this is still what you want to do, then focus on the next step. There is no rush.

On the other side of the coin, I am also going to echo the idea that law school for politics, from a purely statistical perspective, is a terrible idea. People always like to cite the number of lawmakers who are JD grads. Or that one family friend who is in a policy position who went to law school. But they forget that these people are a fraction of the total number of JDs who were gunning for lawmaking/policymaking positions. They also forget the generational difference in hiring for JDs. Do some research, and you will find that with the exception of the very best schools, employment sucks for law grads. Most people strike out. For those who don't, debt is a very real problem for most. And JDs are not portable, fill all, cure all degrees. They qualify you to take the bar and practice law. That should be the only reason you go to law school.

That said, I honestly wish you the best of luck.

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PrezRand
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Re: Newbie to this forum

Postby PrezRand » Thu Jun 18, 2015 11:18 pm

Thanks for the advice. I've already decided after undergrad, I will attend grad school or law school right after. I don't want to wait a few years to decide if I want to go to law school or grad school, only to find out that I'm not capable of it. I would rather know ahead of time. Also, I have a feeling that if I do decide to wait it out and get work experience, I would be too focused on my current job and less interested in going back to school. I could work for a congressman or state politician after undergrad, but that is not my main concern atm.

I also have to consider the possibility of having to pay for this myself. If I wait too long, my parents already told me they would be less interested in paying.

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A. Nony Mouse
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Re: Newbie to this forum

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Thu Jun 18, 2015 11:32 pm

PrezRand wrote:Thanks for the advice. I've already decided after undergrad, I will attend grad school or law school right after. I don't want to wait a few years to decide if I want to go to law school or grad school, only to find out that I'm not capable of it. I would rather know ahead of time. Also, I have a feeling that if I do decide to wait it out and get work experience, I would be too focused on my current job and less interested in going back to school. I could work for a congressman or state politician after undergrad, but that is not my main concern atm.

I also have to consider the possibility of having to pay for this myself. If I wait too long, my parents already told me they would be less interested in paying.

If you do go out and get work experience, and get focused on your current job and become less interested in going back to school, you probably don't actually need to go back to school, then.




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