My sad situation - advice needed

(BLS, URM status, non-traditional, GLBT)
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Joe Quincy
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Re: My sad situation - advice needed

Postby Joe Quincy » Thu Oct 03, 2013 9:45 am

TSLexi wrote:
Joe Quincy wrote:I think people ITT may be confusing getting law school student loans for undergrad. Many undergrads require a co-signer because of adverse credit, even for federal loans. There are ways around it though and no credit isn't the same as adverse credit.


I need to wait until I'm 26 to take PLUS loans out myself. Then I'll return to UG.


Why would you need to be 26? You're an independent student at 24: http://www.fastweb.com/financial-aid/articles/699-fafsa-and-the-independent-student, and a school's financial aid people can independently determine you're independent based upon the circumstances even before that age.

You can't take a ParentPLUS loan out on yourself and GradPLUS is only for grad school.

TSLexi
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Re: My sad situation - advice needed

Postby TSLexi » Thu Oct 03, 2013 7:48 pm

Okay, I read more about California's LSOP. Nothing in the regarding prohibit the supervising attorney from employing you during your studies. Most of the lawyers here worked for their supervisers while reading law: http://www.callawyer.com/Clstory.cfm?eid=916106

And, isn't the bar exam supposed to be an equalizer? If you pass it, it indicates you have the minimum level of competence the State requires to license you as an attorney-at-law.

If you disagree, then please explain why a bar exam exists.

Lawyers are not physicians. The job of a lawyer, is to read, write, and speak in order to provide a client effective advocacy. That does not require expensive formal education.

Once again, for centuries lawyers read law, and no one argued President Abraham Lincoln was an incompetent attorney.

If you are motivated to become an attorney, your job is half-done. Everything else is studying to get admitted to practice.

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rinkrat19
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Re: My sad situation - advice needed

Postby rinkrat19 » Thu Oct 03, 2013 8:00 pm

TSLexi wrote:Okay, I read more about California's LSOP. Nothing in the regarding prohibit the supervising attorney from employing you during your studies. Most of the lawyers here worked for their supervisers while reading law: http://www.callawyer.com/Clstory.cfm?eid=916106

And, isn't the bar exam supposed to be an equalizer? If you pass it, it indicates you have the minimum level of competence the State requires to license you as an attorney-at-law.

If you disagree, then please explain why a bar exam exists.

Lawyers are not physicians. The job of a lawyer, is to read, write, and speak in order to provide a client effective advocacy. That does not require expensive formal education.

Once again, for centuries lawyers read law, and no one argued President Abraham Lincoln was an incompetent attorney.

If you are motivated to become an attorney, your job is half-done. Everything else is studying to get admitted to practice.

Legal hiring is almost entirely prestige-based. There are people from Berkeley and Stanford searching for jobs, lots of people from USC and UCLA looking for jobs, and almost everyone from all the other accredited California looking for jobs. Why would anyone hire a law-study "lawyer"? Lawyers don't make money by teaching you how to be a lawyer. That's not how the legal market works. Besides that, the California bar exam is known as the hardest in the country. IF you pass the "baby bar" (almost nobody does), then you have a small chance of passing the real bar exam without having gone to a proper law school.

You sound very young and naive. It's a shame your parents reacted so badly to your announcement, but the answer is not to rush off half-cocked and make terrible decisions. Come back to the US, finish your degree with federal loans, and then think about law school.

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ScottRiqui
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Re: My sad situation - advice needed

Postby ScottRiqui » Thu Oct 03, 2013 8:03 pm

rinkrat19 wrote: It's a shame your parents reacted so badly to your announcement, but the answer is not to rush off half-cocked and make terrible decisions.


I don't think he's that far along in the transition. :D

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rinkrat19
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Re: My sad situation - advice needed

Postby rinkrat19 » Thu Oct 03, 2013 8:03 pm

ScottRiqui wrote:
rinkrat19 wrote: It's a shame your parents reacted so badly to your announcement, but the answer is not to rush off half-cocked and make terrible decisions.


I don't think he's that far along in the transition. :D

:lol: ba dum tshh!

TSLexi
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Re: My sad situation - advice needed

Postby TSLexi » Thu Oct 03, 2013 8:33 pm

rinkrat19 wrote:
TSLexi wrote:Okay, I read more about California's LSOP. Nothing in the regarding prohibit the supervising attorney from employing you during your studies. Most of the lawyers here worked for their supervisers while reading law: http://www.callawyer.com/Clstory.cfm?eid=916106

And, isn't the bar exam supposed to be an equalizer? If you pass it, it indicates you have the minimum level of competence the State requires to license you as an attorney-at-law.

If you disagree, then please explain why a bar exam exists.

Lawyers are not physicians. The job of a lawyer, is to read, write, and speak in order to provide a client effective advocacy. That does not require expensive formal education.

Once again, for centuries lawyers read law, and no one argued President Abraham Lincoln was an incompetent attorney.

If you are motivated to become an attorney, your job is half-done. Everything else is studying to get admitted to practice.

Legal hiring is almost entirely prestige-based. There are people from Berkeley and Stanford searching for jobs, lots of people from USC and UCLA looking for jobs, and almost everyone from all the other accredited California looking for jobs. Why would anyone hire a law-study "lawyer"? Lawyers don't make money by teaching you how to be a lawyer. That's not how the legal market works. Besides that, the California bar exam is known as the hardest in the country. IF you pass the "baby bar" (almost nobody does), then you have a small chance of passing the real bar exam without having gone to a proper law school.

You sound very young and naive. It's a shame your parents reacted so badly to your announcement, but the answer is not to rush off half-cocked and make terrible decisions. Come back to the US, finish your degree with federal loans, and then think about law school.


She, please. I was pretty far along, actually. I passed nearly perfectly.

Also, if you do manage to pass the incredibly tough California bar with only law office study, wouldn't that make you look incredibly good?

Prestige is meaningless. I personally know Harvard JDs who can't write themselves out of a paper bag. I don't care about your resume, I want to see examples of your work.

Have you ever met an LSOP lawyer? They are all incredibly smart and determined. They took the toughest route to becoming a lawyer, and they succeeded after years of trying.

You act like reading the law is some sort of shortcut. It's harder and it takes one year longer at minimum than law school.

Getting a job or a clientele is all about marketing...what makes me stand out in an appealing way? I'd argue that a lawyer who read law is more attractive because:

1. The firm doesn't need to reimburse tuition (if they offer it) and the candidate is willing to work cheaply because they don't need to pay back loans on top of whatever expenses they may have.

2. If solo, the lawyer can undercut the competition, making them more attractive to clients.

3. The lawyer has demonstrated a remarkable drive to succeed, and has passed two difficult state exams, which should translate into effective advocacy.

4. The lawyer has years of practical experience in a law firm, rather than just a few summers.

You do realize LSOP requirements for the superviser are to submit a study plan for every six months, and give a monthly exam. The actual learning can be done by the reader. How exactly does that eat up a majority of a lawyer's time?

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danitt
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Re: My sad situation - advice needed

Postby danitt » Thu Oct 03, 2013 8:43 pm

Nova wrote:It doesn't seem like you want advice

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rinkrat19
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Re: My sad situation - advice needed

Postby rinkrat19 » Thu Oct 03, 2013 8:47 pm

10 people doing the law study program took the California baby bar last June.
*8 first-time takers: 1 passed
*2 retakers: 0 passed

22 people took the California bar exam in February doing the law study program.
*2 first-time takers: 1 passed
*20 retakers: 1 passed

Those are ASTRONOMICALLY bad odds. The law study program does NOT in ANY WAY prepare you to pass the bar exam.

If you can't comprehend what a catastrophically bad idea this plan is, there's no hope for you. Prepare for life to step on your repeatedly as you continue you make really poor life decisions.

There are better ways to accomplish your goals: ways that actually have some measurable odds at success. Don't be a self-destructive idiot.

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ScottRiqui
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Re: My sad situation - advice needed

Postby ScottRiqui » Thu Oct 03, 2013 8:48 pm

TSLexi wrote:Have you ever met an LSOP lawyer? They are all incredibly smart and determined. They took the toughest route to becoming a lawyer, and they succeeded after years of trying.


You probably know more LSOP lawyers than we do - you might be better off asking them. You would also be well-advised to talk to the ones who *haven't* had successful outcomes, but they may be harder to locate.

If LSOP lawyers are truly getting the kinds of jobs you want, or if you want to go solo and can afford to keep yourself afloat until business starts coming in, then what exactly are you asking us?

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redsox
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Re: My sad situation - advice needed

Postby redsox » Thu Oct 03, 2013 8:55 pm

Pics or it didn't happen.

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MoMettaMonk
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Re: My sad situation - advice needed

Postby MoMettaMonk » Thu Oct 03, 2013 8:55 pm

TSLexi wrote:
She, please. I was pretty far along, actually. I passed nearly perfectly.

Also, if you do manage to pass the incredibly tough California bar with only law office study, wouldn't that make you look incredibly good?

Prestige is meaningless. I personally know Harvard JDs who can't write themselves out of a paper bag. I don't care about your resume, I want to see examples of your work.

Have you ever met an LSOP lawyer? They are all incredibly smart and determined. They took the toughest route to becoming a lawyer, and they succeeded after years of trying.

You act like reading the law is some sort of shortcut. It's harder and it takes one year longer at minimum than law school.

Getting a job or a clientele is all about marketing...what makes me stand out in an appealing way? I'd argue that a lawyer who read law is more attractive because:

1. The firm doesn't need to reimburse tuition (if they offer it) and the candidate is willing to work cheaply because they don't need to pay back loans on top of whatever expenses they may have.

2. If solo, the lawyer can undercut the competition, making them more attractive to clients.

3. The lawyer has demonstrated a remarkable drive to succeed, and has passed two difficult state exams, which should translate into effective advocacy.

4. The lawyer has years of practical experience in a law firm, rather than just a few summers.

You do realize LSOP requirements for the superviser are to submit a study plan for every six months, and give a monthly exam. The actual learning can be done by the reader. How exactly does that eat up a majority of a lawyer's time?


All of these things are excellent points, truly. Unfortunately reality doesn't work out quite so nicely. There is an absolute glut of lawyers in places where the work would allow you to make a decent living (i.e. there's a need for a lot of law work to be done that deals with clients who can't pay/can't pay much). It is totally possible that you could read law and then go solo or join a small firm, and become a decent or even great lawyer. What the people on this thread have been saying is that it just isn't LIKELY. Also, there are plenty of people who pass the Cali bar and then don't get jobs as a lawyer. It is, unfortunately, not as impressive a feat as one would like it to be.

And FYI, you should probably amend your statement about prestige to something like "Prestige SHOULD BE meaningless," or "Prestige is meaningless at the levels of lawyer work that I'm looking into" because prestige is definitely not meaningless in this profession.

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hephaestus
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Re: My sad situation - advice needed

Postby hephaestus » Thu Oct 03, 2013 8:58 pm

danitt wrote:
Nova wrote:It doesn't seem like you want advice

This. If you disagree with everything people ITT are saying, why bother with all the questions?

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ScottRiqui
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Re: My sad situation - advice needed

Postby ScottRiqui » Thu Oct 03, 2013 8:59 pm

rinkrat19 wrote:10 people doing the law study program took the California baby bar last June.
*8 first-time takers: 1 passed
*2 retakers: 0 passed

22 people took the California bar exam in February doing the law study program.
*2 first-time takers: 1 passed
*20 retakers: 1 passed

Those are ASTRONOMICALLY bad odds. The law study program does NOT in ANY WAY prepare you to pass the bar exam.


Along the same lines, I keep hearing that even going to a good law school doesn't prepare you for the bar; that's why the post-graduation/pre-bar prep period is so brutal. But as you pointed out, self-studiers do lousy on the bar exam. Students from TTTT places like Cooley do horribly as a group too.

So, is it that the people who choose the TTTT/self-study route are just less likely to have the aptitude to pass the bar, or is there actually something you learn in a "good" law school that helps better prepare you for it?

TSLexi
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Re: My sad situation - advice needed

Postby TSLexi » Thu Oct 03, 2013 9:22 pm

My goal is to practice shipping law or average adjusting. Shipping law is incredibly niche, as many lawyers aren't qualified to do the work.

Before/during LSOP, I plan to earn the Insurance Institutes of America's Associate in Maritime Insurance Management and the Association of Average Adjusters of the United States and Canada's Marine Hull Claims Professional.

My Dad is an internationally-recognized marine surveyor, and he works with adjusters and maritime lawyers all the time.

My maritime lawyer friend in NY, along with my other friend, an average adjuster who is the past president of the AAAUSC, said that I should get qualified as a paralegal so I can get work at a maritime law firm, earn my marine insurance qualifications, and then figure out how to become a lawyer, as average adjusting, while not actually requiring a law license, is intimately involved with admiralty law.

I do plan to audit law school classes while reading law, to make up for whatever deficiencies are in my education.

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dr123
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Re: My sad situation - advice needed

Postby dr123 » Thu Oct 03, 2013 9:23 pm

Just finish up your degree at the local CSU or whatever

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MoMettaMonk
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Re: My sad situation - advice needed

Postby MoMettaMonk » Thu Oct 03, 2013 9:54 pm

TSLexi wrote:My goal is to practice shipping law or average adjusting. Shipping law is incredibly niche, as many lawyers aren't qualified to do the work.

Before/during LSOP, I plan to earn the Insurance Institutes of America's Associate in Maritime Insurance Management and the Association of Average Adjusters of the United States and Canada's Marine Hull Claims Professional.

My Dad is an internationally-recognized marine surveyor, and he works with adjusters and maritime lawyers all the time.

My maritime lawyer friend in NY, along with my other friend, an average adjuster who is the past president of the AAAUSC, said that I should get qualified as a paralegal so I can get work at a maritime law firm, earn my marine insurance qualifications, and then figure out how to become a lawyer, as average adjusting, while not actually requiring a law license, is intimately involved with admiralty law.

I do plan to audit law school classes while reading law, to make up for whatever deficiencies are in my education.


You have all of this info, have all of these contacts, and have this plan pretty much set in your mind about what you freely admit is an incredibly niche area of the law. At this point I'm just wondering what information you expected to get from the people on this site. It is admittedly a forum all about a subset of law schools (it's called top-law-schools after all), and your plan doesn't involve going to law school at all.

Were you just looking for a rubber stamp from the hivemind? Because that's not going to happen. The advice you're most likely to get from anyone on this site is to find a way to finish your bachelor's degree, work at a law firm to see if you truly like law, go to the best school you can (because as other people have pointed out, of the people who do read law, the vast majority don't pass the bar), and then find your niche and have a great career.

This will most likely be the last time I post on this thread, so I just wanted to say that I personally wish you the best of luck with your transition and with whatever you decide to do with your life. But please, do make sure that you weigh all of your options objectively.

TSLexi
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Re: My sad situation - advice needed

Postby TSLexi » Thu Oct 03, 2013 10:15 pm

I think once I save up enough money from my paralegal work to retransition and I can be reclassified by FAFSA as an independent student, I'll attend Cal Maritime to earn my BS in Global Affairs and Maritime Studies. Then I'll either try for law school, or engage in LSOP.

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romothesavior
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Re: My sad situation - advice needed

Postby romothesavior » Thu Oct 03, 2013 10:28 pm

danitt wrote:
Nova wrote:It doesn't seem like you want advice

Seriously. OP, why are you even here? You clearly know nothing about student loans, the paralegal market, or the job market for lawyers, and instead of listening to the people who you solicited for advice, you're being arrogant and stubborn.

TSLexi
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Re: My sad situation - advice needed

Postby TSLexi » Thu Oct 03, 2013 10:56 pm

romothesavior wrote:
danitt wrote:
Nova wrote:It doesn't seem like you want advice

Seriously. OP, why are you even here? You clearly know nothing about student loans, the paralegal market, or the job market for lawyers, and instead of listening to the people who you solicited for advice, you're being arrogant and stubborn.


Read the above post.

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dr123
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Re: My sad situation - advice needed

Postby dr123 » Thu Oct 03, 2013 11:13 pm

Why can you go to a CC but not like a CSU or something. I don't get it.

TSLexi
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Re: My sad situation - advice needed

Postby TSLexi » Thu Oct 03, 2013 11:15 pm

dr123 wrote:Why can you go to a CC but not like a CSU or something. I don't get it.


Money.

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dr123
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Re: My sad situation - advice needed

Postby dr123 » Thu Oct 03, 2013 11:17 pm

TSLexi wrote:
dr123 wrote:Why can you go to a CC but not like a CSU or something. I don't get it.


Money.


You already have like 3 years of college done right? Is finishing a degree at a CSU really going be that much more than like a 2 yr degree at a CC?

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guano
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Re: My sad situation - advice needed

Postby guano » Thu Oct 03, 2013 11:25 pm

TSLexi wrote:Have you ever met an LSOP lawyer? They are all incredibly foolhardy. They took the dumbest route to becoming a lawyer, and they somehow succeeded after years of trying.
fixed

No way am I gonna choose the lawyer too dumb to get into a reputable school over the one with a perfect pedigree

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guano
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Re: My sad situation - advice needed

Postby guano » Thu Oct 03, 2013 11:28 pm

dr123 wrote:
TSLexi wrote:
dr123 wrote:Why can you go to a CC but not like a CSU or something. I don't get it.


Money.


You already have like 3 years of college done right? Is finishing a degree at a CSU really going be that much more than like a 2 yr degree at a CC?

I just want to point out that tuition rates in Leeds are probably lower than a community college

TSLexi
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Re: My sad situation - advice needed

Postby TSLexi » Thu Oct 03, 2013 11:28 pm

dr123 wrote:
TSLexi wrote:
dr123 wrote:Why can you go to a CC but not like a CSU or something. I don't get it.


Money.


You already have like 3 years of college done right? Is finishing a degree at a CSU really going be that much more than like a 2 yr degree at a CC?


The problem is the courses aren't transferable, as the UK system is very different. If I had the degree, I'd have no problem.

Also, I had loads of CC credit from way back when, so all I need to do to get the AA is do the certificate courses.




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