Career outlook

(BLS, URM status, non-traditional, GLBT)
californiauser
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Re: Career outlook

Postby californiauser » Wed Sep 25, 2013 5:03 pm

It'd be great if some URM t14 alumni would come back and post their experiences post law school. Sadly, it only happens every so often and their threads usually die out pretty quick. I think in the upcoming years we'll start to see more URMs maintain forum activity.

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AAJD2B
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Re: Career outlook

Postby AAJD2B » Wed Sep 25, 2013 5:09 pm

californiauser wrote:It'd be great if some URM t14 alumni would come back and post their experiences post law school. Sadly, it only happens every so often and their threads usually die out pretty quick. I think in the upcoming years we'll start to see more URMs maintain forum activity.


This is so key...paying it forward. Many have come and gone. Many are also busy trying to make a name for themselves. Be the change you seek. Hopefully you and a few others (myself included should I land a T14) will return to relay our experiences.

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AAJD2B
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Re: Career outlook

Postby AAJD2B » Wed Sep 25, 2013 5:11 pm

twentypercentmore wrote:I secretly do, too, but as soon as people start saying that, it's going to go from, "URMs in T14 law schools are more likely to get biglaw than their non-URM counterparts" to "HOMG URMS ARE BASICALLY GUARANTEED MULTIPLE OFFERS FROM WILLIAMS CONNOLLY."


LOL. Let them speculate and make deductions as they may.

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bizzybone1313
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Re: Career outlook

Postby bizzybone1313 » Wed Sep 25, 2013 5:37 pm

AAJD2B wrote:
MoMettaMonk wrote:I highly doubt this. I don't doubt that it might have the effect of excluding minorities who don't realize or don't take advantage of the financial aid opportunities that are available to them. But especially at the well funded, elite institutions (the HYSP's of the world) there is a wealth of... well wealth available to qualified minorities, especially those from families on the lower end of the socio-economic ladder.


The latter comment of yours is misleading. For the most part, the elite trinity does not have a history of offering full or near to full schollies to their law students, let alone minorities. It's just not happening. The most I have seen was Stanford offering one student 119k and he was not a minority student.

Let's be real: most of the minorities that are qualified for and attend the likes of HYS are not poor or from working-class families. They more align with the likes of Jack and Jill/upper-middle class and their educational experience and exposures reflect this.

But then you have schools like NYU, Cornell, Michigan, UVA, Penn, Chicago and Berkeley recruiting minorities to attend their schools because of their generous schollies. This would prove far more attractive for a minority applicant who came from humble beginnings v.s. a minority applicant who comes from money.

HYS law schools may have wealth but they sure as hell are not dishing it out like the others just below their class.


What I bolded is completely and unequivocally true. I debated this back and forth with a dumbass for hours on end. There is nothing worse than debating something with someone who doesn't know what the fuck they are talking about. The reason this is true, in part, is due to the strong correlation between socioeconomic status and standardized test scores.

People of any race from humble backgrounds are highly underrepresented at the most elite schools.

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Futuregohan14
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Re: Career outlook

Postby Futuregohan14 » Wed Sep 25, 2013 6:16 pm

californiauser wrote:It'd be great if some URM t14 alumni would come back and post their experiences post law school. Sadly, it only happens every so often and their threads usually die out pretty quick. I think in the upcoming years we'll start to see more URMs maintain forum activity.


viewtopic.php?f=14&t=37565
viewtopic.php?f=23&t=159744#p4575466

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smokenmirrors
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Re: Career outlook

Postby smokenmirrors » Wed Sep 25, 2013 6:18 pm

bizzybone1313 wrote:
AAJD2B wrote:
MoMettaMonk wrote:I highly doubt this. I don't doubt that it might have the effect of excluding minorities who don't realize or don't take advantage of the financial aid opportunities that are available to them. But especially at the well funded, elite institutions (the HYSP's of the world) there is a wealth of... well wealth available to qualified minorities, especially those from families on the lower end of the socio-economic ladder.


The latter comment of yours is misleading. For the most part, the elite trinity does not have a history of offering full or near to full schollies to their law students, let alone minorities. It's just not happening. The most I have seen was Stanford offering one student 119k and he was not a minority student.

Let's be real: most of the minorities that are qualified for and attend the likes of HYS are not poor or from working-class families. They more align with the likes of Jack and Jill/upper-middle class and their educational experience and exposures reflect this.

But then you have schools like NYU, Cornell, Michigan, UVA, Penn, Chicago and Berkeley recruiting minorities to attend their schools because of their generous schollies. This would prove far more attractive for a minority applicant who came from humble beginnings v.s. a minority applicant who comes from money.

HYS law schools may have wealth but they sure as hell are not dishing it out like the others just below their class.


What I bolded is completely and unequivocally true. I debated this back and forth with a dumbass for hours on end. There is nothing worse than debating something with someone who doesn't know what the fuck they are talking about. The reason this is true, in part, is due to the strong correlation between socioeconomic status and standardized test scores.

People of any race from humble backgrounds are highly underrepresented at the most elite schools.




All of what you are saying is undoubtedly true for the most part. My best friend a (URM) is a 2L at HLS and you better believe he already has an offer in biglaw (seeing he passes the bar and maintains his grades) but he also comes from a wealthy background and has been exposed to things most (assuing) URM in non T-14 LS have not. Also this guy had the chance to attend just about 8 of the T-14 LS you mentioned some with big schollies and yet, he chose Harvard.

Standardized testing, historically has been a big detterent for most URM's for many reasons as the studies show most are not great test takers. This doesn't prove or dispprove ones ability to be a great lawyer IMO but again, the rules are already in place and this is the measuring stick. So those URM that begin this test taking early on and whom are exposed to these types of rigorous methods usually come from higher socioeconomic backgrounds and tend to attend the HYSP or elite law schools.

This is getting long winded but Paul Campos basically explains all of this in detail from his book, "Dont Go to LS-Unless"

The reverse Robin Hood Principle

"Law students with few or no connections and consequently poorer job prospects, are on average, subsidizing those with "merit" scholarships- many of whom to quote "are the kind of people who were born on third base but think they hit a triple"

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MoMettaMonk
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Re: Career outlook

Postby MoMettaMonk » Wed Sep 25, 2013 6:21 pm

bizzybone1313 wrote:
AAJD2B wrote:
MoMettaMonk wrote:I highly doubt this. I don't doubt that it might have the effect of excluding minorities who don't realize or don't take advantage of the financial aid opportunities that are available to them. But especially at the well funded, elite institutions (the HYSP's of the world) there is a wealth of... well wealth available to qualified minorities, especially those from families on the lower end of the socio-economic ladder.


The latter comment of yours is misleading. For the most part, the elite trinity does not have a history of offering full or near to full schollies to their law students, let alone minorities. It's just not happening. The most I have seen was Stanford offering one student 119k and he was not a minority student.

Let's be real: most of the minorities that are qualified for and attend the likes of HYS are not poor or from working-class families. They more align with the likes of Jack and Jill/upper-middle class and their educational experience and exposures reflect this.

But then you have schools like NYU, Cornell, Michigan, UVA, Penn, Chicago and Berkeley recruiting minorities to attend their schools because of their generous schollies. This would prove far more attractive for a minority applicant who came from humble beginnings v.s. a minority applicant who comes from money.

HYS law schools may have wealth but they sure as hell are not dishing it out like the others just below their class.


What I bolded is completely and unequivocally true. I debated this back and forth with a dumbass for hours on end. There is nothing worse than debating something with someone who doesn't know what the fuck they are talking about. The reason this is true, in part, is due to the strong correlation between socioeconomic status and standardized test scores.

People of any race from humble backgrounds are highly underrepresented at the most elite schools.


Yes that is totally true, and as for what I wrote (the italicized) I was referring primarily to undergrad and not law, which is why I included Princeton.

HS (I don't know enough about YLS's financial aid to say anything about it) law's essentially mandatory loan programs make it a potentially deadly proposition if someone gets there and does too poorly (Twenty can comment with more knowledge than I on if any of their LRAP programs truly help mitigate the amount of risk their students take on).

As for the correlation between standardized test scores and socio-economic status I only have one thing to say: YUP.

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bizzybone1313
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Re: Career outlook

Postby bizzybone1313 » Wed Sep 25, 2013 6:23 pm

I just bought the Campos book the other day. I can't wait to read it. I already have a stack of books I am reading right now though. Bill Clinton's biography which is too long winded. It is good but not an outstanding book. I highly recommend you guys read the biography on Steve Jobs. That is one of the best books I have ever read.

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bizzybone1313
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Re: Career outlook

Postby bizzybone1313 » Wed Sep 25, 2013 6:34 pm

MoMettaMonk wrote:
bizzybone1313 wrote:
AAJD2B wrote:
MoMettaMonk wrote:I highly doubt this. I don't doubt that it might have the effect of excluding minorities who don't realize or don't take advantage of the financial aid opportunities that are available to them. But especially at the well funded, elite institutions (the HYSP's of the world) there is a wealth of... well wealth available to qualified minorities, especially those from families on the lower end of the socio-economic ladder.


The latter comment of yours is misleading. For the most part, the elite trinity does not have a history of offering full or near to full schollies to their law students, let alone minorities. It's just not happening. The most I have seen was Stanford offering one student 119k and he was not a minority student.

Let's be real: most of the minorities that are qualified for and attend the likes of HYS are not poor or from working-class families. They more align with the likes of Jack and Jill/upper-middle class and their educational experience and exposures reflect this.

But then you have schools like NYU, Cornell, Michigan, UVA, Penn, Chicago and Berkeley recruiting minorities to attend their schools because of their generous schollies. This would prove far more attractive for a minority applicant who came from humble beginnings v.s. a minority applicant who comes from money.

HYS law schools may have wealth but they sure as hell are not dishing it out like the others just below their class.


What I bolded is completely and unequivocally true. I debated this back and forth with a dumbass for hours on end. There is nothing worse than debating something with someone who doesn't know what the fuck they are talking about. The reason this is true, in part, is due to the strong correlation between socioeconomic status and standardized test scores.

People of any race from humble backgrounds are highly underrepresented at the most elite schools.


Yes that is totally true, and as for what I wrote (the italicized) I was referring primarily to undergrad and not law, which is why I included Princeton.

HS (I don't know enough about YLS's financial aid to say anything about it) law's essentially mandatory loan programs make it a potentially deadly proposition if someone gets there and does too poorly (Twenty can comment with more knowledge than I on if any of their LRAP programs truly help mitigate the amount of risk their students take on).

As for the correlation between standardized test scores and socio-economic status I only have one thing to say: YUP.


I agree with a lot of what you said in the earlier posts. I was referring more to schools like UNC, UCLA, UC Berkeley and those type of schools. I think a lot of the sub-elite schools and respectable institutions have guys at the top who really don't give a fuck if anyone can afford the tuition. The super elite schools like Harvard obviously have huge endowments to draw from and want to attract the best students regardless of what it takes.

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MoMettaMonk
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Re: Career outlook

Postby MoMettaMonk » Wed Sep 25, 2013 6:56 pm

Futuregohan14 wrote:
californiauser wrote:It'd be great if some URM t14 alumni would come back and post their experiences post law school. Sadly, it only happens every so often and their threads usually die out pretty quick. I think in the upcoming years we'll start to see more URMs maintain forum activity.


http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 14&t=37565
http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 4#p4575466


I've read through both of these threads before, but there hasn't been any substantial info added to either in years. However if anyone viewing this post hasn't read those threads, I highly recommend them.




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