Does Undergrad Matter for URM Admissions?

(BLS, URM status, non-traditional, GLBT)
lawgurl192
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Does Undergrad Matter for URM Admissions?

Postby lawgurl192 » Sun Jul 14, 2013 10:03 pm

Hi, all, first time posting on this forum and I need some advice. My dream school is Stanford Law. I've been browsing LSN recently and have noticed that majority of the admitted students from LSN who applied to YHSC...etc. often had UG degrees from HYPS especially for some whose GPA or LSAT were slightly lower than the average URM YHSC applicant. I'm a tad concerned because I don't attend any of these UG colleges (top 20 liberal arts college) and I'm afraid I'll be at a disadvantage because of it. I was wondering what you guys here thought.

thanks in advance

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bizzybone1313
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Re: Does Undergrad Matter for URM Admissions?

Postby bizzybone1313 » Sun Jul 14, 2013 10:18 pm

The best way to put it is that HYSC prefer URM's from elite schools and like to draw from that pool, but coming from a lower ranked school is doable with the right numbers. Columbia, in particular, seems like elitist assholes. For URM's, it almost seems like it is easier to get into Harvard than Columbia and this might very well be the case. Columbia doesn't seem too be fond of URM's. I have seen 3.6ish/169-171ish not get into Columbia.

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stillwater
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Re: Does Undergrad Matter for URM Admissions?

Postby stillwater » Sun Jul 14, 2013 10:24 pm

bizzybone1313 wrote:The best way to put it is that HYSC prefer URM's from elite schools and like to draw from that pool, but coming from a lower ranked school is doable with the right numbers. Columbia, in particular, seems like elitist assholes. For URM's, it almost seems like it is easier to get into Harvard than Columbia and this might very well be the case. Columbia doesn't seem too be fond of URM's. I have seen 3.6ish/169-171ish not get into Columbia.


interesting theory bro

lawgurl192
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Re: Does Undergrad Matter for URM Admissions?

Postby lawgurl192 » Sun Jul 14, 2013 11:15 pm

Wormfather wrote:
lawgurl192 wrote:Hi, all, first time posting on this forum and I need some advice. My dream school is Stanford Law. I've been browsing LSN recently and have noticed that majority of the admitted students from LSN who applied to YHSC...etc. often had UG degrees from HYPS especially for some whose GPA or LSAT were slightly lower than the average URM YHSC applicant. I'm a tad concerned because I don't attend any of these UG colleges (top 20 liberal arts college) and I'm afraid I'll be at a disadvantage because of it. I was wondering what you guys here thought.

thanks in advance


I went to a small LA school as a URM and got S, if you can get around 170, you'll get at least 2/3 of HYS.


Haven't taken the LSAT yet but my practice tests range from high 160s to low 170s (168-171), however my gpa is really low, projecting 3.4-3.45 realistically (not like it matters but my school is notorious for grade deflation)

Athlone McGinnis
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Re: Does Undergrad Matter for URM Admissions?

Postby Athlone McGinnis » Mon Jul 15, 2013 5:08 am

I'm curious about this topic as well.

My impression based on years of lurking on forums like these has been that undergrad does carry more weight for URMs than others. As far as African Americans go, I got the impression that schools favored those from Ivies (plus Stanford and a couple of other Ivy-caliber schools) and top HBCU's (ex: Howard, Morehouse, Spelman). The many pages of advice I read targeted at AA applicants implied that applicants with pedigrees from those institutions tended to get a slight bump in admissions.

That being said, this is all hearsay gleaned in bits and pieces over a few years of reading advice on forums like this. I'm not at all sure about this, which is why I'd love to hear more from other posters here who might have insight on this topic.

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John_rizzy_rawls
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Re: Does Undergrad Matter for URM Admissions?

Postby John_rizzy_rawls » Mon Jul 15, 2013 6:03 am

Softs, in general, matter a bit more in URM admissions. Overcoming obstacles, diversity of experience, UG strength, etc. All of those things seem to matter a bit more in URM applications than in non-URM ones.

HYPS UG seems to provide a decent bump. Top 25 UGs/Top 10 LACs seem to provide a very slight one. Other than that, maybe some HBCUs, but that's about it.

But mostly, it goes: LSAT > GPA >>> PS and DS > LORs >>>>> tiny stuff like UG strength.

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PDaddy
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Re: Does Undergrad Matter for URM Admissions?

Postby PDaddy » Mon Jul 15, 2013 6:31 am

lawgurl192 wrote:
Wormfather wrote:
lawgurl192 wrote:Hi, all, first time posting on this forum and I need some advice. My dream school is Stanford Law. I've been browsing LSN recently and have noticed that majority of the admitted students from LSN who applied to YHSC...etc. often had UG degrees from HYPS especially for some whose GPA or LSAT were slightly lower than the average URM YHSC applicant. I'm a tad concerned because I don't attend any of these UG colleges (top 20 liberal arts college) and I'm afraid I'll be at a disadvantage because of it. I was wondering what you guys here thought.

thanks in advance


I went to a small LA school as a URM and got S, if you can get around 170, you'll get at least 2/3 of HYS.


Haven't taken the LSAT yet but my practice tests range from high 160s to low 170s (168-171), however my gpa is really low, projecting 3.4-3.45 realistically (not like it matters but my school is notorious for grade deflation)


At "3.4-ish" your GPA is actually very solid - though not stellar. As long as it is above 3.2 you are set. Get a 165+ score and you can go to any school. Also keep in mind that soft factors are about 10-20% of a non-URM's admissions, whereas they are about 30-45% of URM admissions. Your essays, WE, community service, and LOR's will make a huge impact.

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PDaddy
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Re: Does Undergrad Matter for URM Admissions?

Postby PDaddy » Mon Jul 15, 2013 7:18 am

Athlone McGinnis wrote:I'm curious about this topic as well.

My impression based on years of lurking on forums like these has been that undergrad does carry more weight for URMs than others. As far as African Americans go, I got the impression that schools favored those from Ivies (plus Stanford and a couple of other Ivy-caliber schools) and top HBCU's (ex: Howard, Morehouse, Spelman). The many pages of advice I read targeted at AA applicants implied that applicants with pedigrees from those institutions tended to get a slight bump in admissions.

That being said, this is all hearsay gleaned in bits and pieces over a few years of reading advice on forums like this. I'm not at all sure about this, which is why I'd love to hear more from other posters here who might have insight on this topic.


You are absolutely correct about the "bump" given to URM's from Ivies, "Non-Ivy Elites" (like Stanford, Vandy, MIT, or Northwestern) and top HBCU's (esp. Howard, Spelman and Morehouse. Not sure about FAMU, Clark, Hampton, and Southern grads, but my guess is that they are also well-regarded.

I really don't understand the HBCU bump, because black students who attend mostly white local state colleges and universities (prestigious or not) continue to face much of the same adversity that led to both the formation of HBCU's and the graduate URM admissions bump to begin with. This can negatively impact the academic performances of those students. That's nonexistent at the HBCU's. One would think that grad school adcoms would take this into consideration, but I am glad they value the academic rigor of undergraduate HBCU's.

As well, maybe transcripts from graduates of HBCU's are taken more seriously because adcoms know that there's no "white guilt" reflected in the grades (just a theory). Maybe grade inflation is less pervasive at HBCU's. Top students at HBCU's are truly the cream of the crop at HBCU's.

However, there is also much racism on white campuses, administratively, academically and socially; for anyone to discount this is insane. Furthermore, we know that grade inflation is rampant at the Ivies; so lack of grade inflation doesn't explain why Ivy graduates get admissions boosts.

If adcoms don't value as highly the accomplishments of black students at state universities and colleges (excluding Berkeley, UVA, Michigan, UCLA, UNC, UWashington, UC-Irvine, UC-Davis, UCSD, or GA Tech) or those from lower-ranked private schools - like any of the Loyolas - it's wrong.

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AAJD2B
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Re: Does Undergrad Matter for URM Admissions?

Postby AAJD2B » Mon Jul 15, 2013 9:46 am

Wormfather wrote:
lawgurl192 wrote:Hi, all, first time posting on this forum and I need some advice. My dream school is Stanford Law. I've been browsing LSN recently and have noticed that majority of the admitted students from LSN who applied to YHSC...etc. often had UG degrees from HYPS especially for some whose GPA or LSAT were slightly lower than the average URM YHSC applicant. I'm a tad concerned because I don't attend any of these UG colleges (top 20 liberal arts college) and I'm afraid I'll be at a disadvantage because of it. I was wondering what you guys here thought.

thanks in advance


I went to a small LA school as a URM and got S, if you can get around 170, you'll get at least 2/3 of HYS.


Lest we forget your 3.9 GPA alongside you 170 highest LSAT? With that type of GPA it does not matter where you went to undergrad as a URM, more so if AA. A 160+ alongside such would guarantee admission to at least one T6.

The OP presents a different scenario. I do not believe your situation applies here.

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AAJD2B
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Re: Does Undergrad Matter for URM Admissions?

Postby AAJD2B » Mon Jul 15, 2013 9:51 am

bizzybone1313 wrote: Columbia, in particular, seems like elitist assholes. For URM's, it almost seems like it is easier to get into Harvard than Columbia and this might very well be the case. Columbia doesn't seem too be fond of URM's. I have seen 3.6ish/169-171ish not get into Columbia.


I would have to disagree. CLS values elite softs in the case of non-Ivy/top HBCU/top LAC URM graduates. Work experience seems to be the most heavily weighted.

All this goes to show that there is no set formula or guarantees for URM admissions. Best advice is to market yourself as best as possible.

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AAJD2B
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Re: Does Undergrad Matter for URM Admissions?

Postby AAJD2B » Mon Jul 15, 2013 9:58 am

PDaddy, elite law schools are loving FAMU graduates. A number of these grads are at HLS and CLS in particular.

As for your other point, I completely agree that URMs have to face more environmental challenges at predominantly WASP undergrads vs. HBCUs, hence the importance to bring this to light in applications through recommendations, a resume or statement.

As a graduate of a LAC, I ensured one of my recommenders made comment on my involvement in helping my undergrad become a more welcoming environment for URM students. My resume also highlights such involvement.

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AAJD2B
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Re: Does Undergrad Matter for URM Admissions?

Postby AAJD2B » Mon Jul 15, 2013 10:04 am

John_rizzy_rawls wrote:Softs, in general, matter a bit more in URM admissions. Overcoming obstacles, diversity of experience, UG strength, etc. All of those things seem to matter a bit more in URM applications than in non-URM ones.

HYPS UG seems to provide a decent bump. Top 25 UGs/Top 10 LACs seem to provide a very slight one. Other than that, maybe some HBCUs, but that's about it.

But mostly, it goes: LSAT > GPA >>> PS and DS > LORs >>>>> tiny stuff like UG strength.


Agreed. I would just add that timing is also huge. The lower your numbers the better your chances of admittance if applying early (before Turkey Day).

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John_rizzy_rawls
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Re: Does Undergrad Matter for URM Admissions?

Postby John_rizzy_rawls » Mon Jul 15, 2013 11:18 am

AAJD2B wrote:
John_rizzy_rawls wrote:Softs, in general, matter a bit more in URM admissions. Overcoming obstacles, diversity of experience, UG strength, etc. All of those things seem to matter a bit more in URM applications than in non-URM ones.

HYPS UG seems to provide a decent bump. Top 25 UGs/Top 10 LACs seem to provide a very slight one. Other than that, maybe some HBCUs, but that's about it.

But mostly, it goes: LSAT > GPA >>> PS and DS > LORs >>>>> tiny stuff like UG strength.


Agreed. I would just add that timing is also huge. The lower your numbers the better your chances of admittance if applying early (before Turkey Day).


Not necessarily. Anytime before January is generally fine for URMs; as they tend not to hear back for a while anyway.

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AAJD2B
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Re: Does Undergrad Matter for URM Admissions?

Postby AAJD2B » Mon Jul 15, 2013 11:30 am

John_rizzy_rawls wrote:
AAJD2B wrote:
John_rizzy_rawls wrote:Softs, in general, matter a bit more in URM admissions. Overcoming obstacles, diversity of experience, UG strength, etc. All of those things seem to matter a bit more in URM applications than in non-URM ones.

HYPS UG seems to provide a decent bump. Top 25 UGs/Top 10 LACs seem to provide a very slight one. Other than that, maybe some HBCUs, but that's about it.

But mostly, it goes: LSAT > GPA >>> PS and DS > LORs >>>>> tiny stuff like UG strength.


Agreed. I would just add that timing is also huge. The lower your numbers the better your chances of admittance if applying early (before Turkey Day).


Not necessarily. Anytime before January is generally fine for URMs; as they tend not to hear back for a while anyway.


I had specified URMs with low numbers, not all URMs. Anyone who has been following previous cycles know that timely applications can make the world of difference, especially given the fact that as the cycle draws closer to an end, law schools look for higher numbers to help compensate for lower numbers already admitted.

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John_rizzy_rawls
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Re: Does Undergrad Matter for URM Admissions?

Postby John_rizzy_rawls » Mon Jul 15, 2013 11:33 am

Right, I just don't think 3.4/167+ is low for AA URM. It's actually pretty high. Assuming she scores that high.

lawgurl192
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Re: Does Undergrad Matter for URM Admissions?

Postby lawgurl192 » Mon Jul 15, 2013 2:04 pm

Thanks for responding everyone. So, from what I'm seeing UG prestige gives a decent boost for URMs. I have a few questions though, if anyone would care to help:

1. Would a 3.4~ GPA/170 LSAT be enough for SLS or Harvard/Columbia (assuming no chance at Yale). btw I'm a black female.

2. In the scenario that my stats are comparable to that of a HYPS UG would I be at a disadvantage coming from a slightly less prestigious college (Top 20 LAC)

3. Would I be better off applying ED to Columbia/UChicago/NYU?

4. Because URMs tend to hear about T-14 admission decisions really late and are normally waitlisted, would that allow me to send in my 1st semester senior year grades in order to boost my GPA? Would this new gpa be reported to LSAC rather than the one that only includes grades up to end of Junior Year?

5. Or would I be better off waiting a year or two to apply to law school to be more competitive and raise my gpa?

thanks you guys

steven21
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Re: Does Undergrad Matter for URM Admissions?

Postby steven21 » Mon Jul 15, 2013 2:07 pm

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Last edited by steven21 on Sat Apr 26, 2014 12:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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AAJD2B
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Re: Does Undergrad Matter for URM Admissions?

Postby AAJD2B » Mon Jul 15, 2013 2:22 pm

1. Yes. A former AA female applicant got in and is attending HLS with a 3.4/170. She had unique softs though. Another AA female landed HLS with a 3.4/168, Hampton grad. It is a strong shoe in at CLS. SLS admitted a 3.4/169 URM female this past cycle as well.

2. With a 165+ LSAT and AA status, it does not matter where you attend. Law schools will want you and throw $$$$ at you.

3. No, even moreso if you scored a 165+.

4. Yes to both.

5. It depends on your goals. If you score well, I say still apply and see where the chips fall.

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Re: Does Undergrad Matter for URM Admissions?

Postby californiauser » Mon Jul 15, 2013 10:53 pm

Athlone McGinnis wrote:I'm curious about this topic as well.

My impression based on years of lurking on forums like these has been that undergrad does carry more weight for URMs than others. As far as African Americans go, I got the impression that schools favored those from Ivies (plus Stanford and a couple of other Ivy-caliber schools) and top HBCU's (ex: Howard, Morehouse, Spelman). The many pages of advice I read targeted at AA applicants implied that applicants with pedigrees from those institutions tended to get a slight bump in admissions.

That being said, this is all hearsay gleaned in bits and pieces over a few years of reading advice on forums like this. I'm not at all sure about this, which is why I'd love to hear more from other posters here who might have insight on this topic.


I find this hard to believe. Why would they like HBCUs just for being HBCUs? It seems more likely that they're more likely to accept URM students from those schools because more URMs are applying from those schools. None of the HBCUs are difficult to get into or known for being particularly rigorous. I seriously doubt Columbia's admission staff is salivating over FAMU and Spelman grads.

lawgurl192
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Re: Does Undergrad Matter for URM Admissions?

Postby lawgurl192 » Tue Jul 16, 2013 3:07 am

lawgurl192 wrote:Thanks for responding everyone. So, from what I'm seeing UG prestige gives a decent boost for URMs. I have a few questions though, if anyone would care to help:

1. Would a 3.4~ GPA/170 LSAT be enough for SLS or Harvard/Columbia (assuming no chance at Yale). btw I'm a black female.

2. In the scenario that my stats are comparable to that of a HYPS UG would I be at a disadvantage coming from a slightly less prestigious college (Top 20 LAC)

3. Would I be better off applying ED to Columbia/UChicago/NYU?

4. Because URMs tend to hear about T-14 admission decisions really late and are normally waitlisted, would that allow me to send in my 1st semester senior year grades in order to boost my GPA? Would this new gpa be reported to LSAC rather than the one that only includes grades up to end of Junior Year?

5. Or would I be better off waiting a year or two to apply to law school to be more competitive and raise my gpa?

thanks you guys



Does anyone else have any advice to give? I find it hard to believe a 3.4/170 LSAT would stand a chance at Harvard, much less Stanford and I've seen applicants with slightly higher GPAs that have been rejected. I really don't want to stay in up North, I can't stand the weather and California is far more like home to me and I'd be very interested in working there after law school.

would appreciate some more opinions.

Athlone McGinnis
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Re: Does Undergrad Matter for URM Admissions?

Postby Athlone McGinnis » Tue Jul 16, 2013 7:19 am

californiauser wrote:

I find this hard to believe. Why would they like HBCUs just for being HBCUs? It seems more likely that they're more likely to accept URM students from those schools because more URMs are applying from those schools. None of the HBCUs are difficult to get into or known for being particularly rigorous. I seriously doubt Columbia's admission staff is salivating over FAMU and Spelman grads.


I found it hard to believe as well, which is why I asked. They don't seem particularly rigorous, but then again that may not be enough to prevent them punching above their weight. Consider the case of Howard Law when it comes to NLJ250 placement:

http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNL ... 0616070546

Check that list and you can find Howard at #31. Howard is a third tier law school, yet it outranks many Tier 1 schools and even solid T20s like Minnesota in NLJ250 placement. As a TTT, Howard shouldn't theoretically be anywhere near the likes of UNC, Washington, Wake Forest or Minnesota, yet it actually stands ahead of these schools. Many would attribute this mind-boggling performance to the fact that Howard is an HBCU. It would seem that, for some reason, legal employers give some weight to top HBCU applicants (in this case mostly Howard grads since Howard is far and away the premier HBCU law school) that candidates from non-HBCUs of similar rank/rigor just don't get.

Obviously we're talking about different dynamics here (law school admissions vs. law firm hiring), but regardless of that we can see that HBCUs don't always behave as their levels of rigor would have you expect. They do have the potential to vastly outperform their ranking when it comes to legal hiring, and it isn't inconceivable that the same could be true of admissions.

Athlone McGinnis
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Re: Does Undergrad Matter for URM Admissions?

Postby Athlone McGinnis » Tue Jul 16, 2013 7:48 am

lawgurl192 wrote:Thanks for responding everyone. So, from what I'm seeing UG prestige gives a decent boost for URMs. I have a few questions though, if anyone would care to help:

1. Would a 3.4~ GPA/170 LSAT be enough for SLS or Harvard/Columbia (assuming no chance at Yale). btw I'm a black female.

2. In the scenario that my stats are comparable to that of a HYPS UG would I be at a disadvantage coming from a slightly less prestigious college (Top 20 LAC)

3. Would I be better off applying ED to Columbia/UChicago/NYU?

4. Because URMs tend to hear about T-14 admission decisions really late and are normally waitlisted, would that allow me to send in my 1st semester senior year grades in order to boost my GPA? Would this new gpa be reported to LSAC rather than the one that only includes grades up to end of Junior Year?

5. Or would I be better off waiting a year or two to apply to law school to be more competitive and raise my gpa?

thanks you guys


1. 3.4/170 should give you a strong shot at all three of those schools.
2. This probably would not make enough of a difference to worry about. An AA with a 170 is extremely rare, schools will take them from wherever they can get them.
3. 3.4/170 wouldn't need to ED, just make sure you apply early (well before Thanksgiving). See this thread:
viewtopic.php?f=14&t=213044
4. Not sure about this, I'll let someone else answer.
5. Your GPA really isn't that bad. If you can manage a decent LSAT score (160+), you should manage to get some decent T-14 results with what you have. Schools like USC and UCLA will likely give positive responses as well if California really is your focus.

Does anyone else have any advice to give? I find it hard to believe a 3.4/170 LSAT would stand a chance at Harvard, much less Stanford and I've seen applicants with slightly higher GPAs that have been rejected.


Read through this thread thoroughly:
viewtopic.php?f=14&t=213044

I don't think you understand just how rare an AA with a 170 is. The number of AAs who manage such a score is in the low single digits annually. In 2012, the number of AAs who managed a 167 or higher was approximately 11. Harvard, meanwhile, enrolled 45 AAs. Yale and Stanford enrolled 16 and 12, respectively.

In short, ~12 AAs with 167 or above competed for what shook out to 73 spots at HYS (probably more if we assume that not every student admitted to those schools chose to attend). Do the math and you can see why any AA with a 170 would have a very good shot at one of those schools assuming he/she has a decent GPA (a 3.4 is decent). There are probably only going to be 2 or 3 of those in a year and these schools need many more AAs than that.

An AA test taker looking to merely "stand a chance" at Harvard with a 3.4 GPA probably only needs to hit around a 163-164. AAs with such scores are rare enough to warrant serious consideration, even from a school like Harvard.

I really don't want to stay in up North, I can't stand the weather and California is far more like home to me and I'd be very interested in working there after law school.


3.4/170 would get you very good results at Berkeley, UCLA or USC and I would also bet on that score gaining admission to Stanford as well.

lawgurl192
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Re: Does Undergrad Matter for URM Admissions?

Postby lawgurl192 » Tue Jul 16, 2013 5:59 pm

Wow. Well, thanks everyone. And here I was thinking I wouldn't have any chance at the T-14, much less SLS, this really made my day :D

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musharraf
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Re: Does Undergrad Matter for URM Admissions?

Postby musharraf » Thu Sep 26, 2013 8:40 pm

Piggybacking on this thread: I'm in a similar boat. AA male, 174 LSAT but living with a 3.2 GPA from a top-20 non-Ivy private university. My GPA is a like a weight around my neck, but I'm hoping it's mitigated by having taken a break from school for a few years to gain very unique and mildly prestigious work experience.

From reading this thread and diving into LSAC standard deviations, I'm confident I can break into the T14. But is a 170+ AA so rare that my GPA will be given serious consideration in the T6?

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Nova
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Re: Does Undergrad Matter for URM Admissions?

Postby Nova » Thu Sep 26, 2013 8:45 pm

musharraf wrote:From reading this thread and diving into LSAC standard deviations, I'm confident I can break into the T14. But is a 170+ AA so rare that my GPA will be given serious consideration in the T6?

Im sure CCN will seriously consider you




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