URM 2013-2014 Cycle Thread

(BLS, URM status, non-traditional, GLBT)
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okaygo
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Re: URM 2013-2014 Cycle Thread

Postby okaygo » Sun Jan 05, 2014 1:35 am

ktatl14 wrote:I reflected earlier, and was interested in what people on here though about this. Disclaimer: this doesn't represent what I believe, necessarily, but it's purpose is to spark discussion.

The times I lurk on this forum, all I hear is the talk about HYS and other t-14's. In fact, it is all I hear from most law school hopefuls. While there is no doubt our passion to attend t-14 schools are no different from our non-URM counterparts (job prospects), our job outlook is similar to the boost that we receive in law school admission. It appears that we, including myself, pursue t-14's because saying "I went to Harvard Law" creates the illusion that we are "better than" others, particularly people in our community. We are willing to take on $200,000 in debt to feed that illusion. What happened to Howard? Though we can still act as the talented tenth in whatever school we attend, why is Howard's median LSAT a 153? The jobs prospects are nearly the same as a t-14 schools. I know some will argue about the quality of education compared to Yale or Stanford, but, would you agree that the quality of the school is determined by the quality of the student body and alum?

Note, I haven't applied to Howard, nor am I saying that we should lower our standards to attend a school like Howard, but I'm asking, why would we consider a school like Howard to be of "lower standard?" just curious :shock: :roll:


No, no they aren't.

ktatl14
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Re: URM 2013-2014 Cycle Thread

Postby ktatl14 » Sun Jan 05, 2014 1:36 am

okaygo wrote:
ktatl14 wrote:I reflected earlier, and was interested in what people on here though about this. Disclaimer: this doesn't represent what I believe, necessarily, but it's purpose is to spark discussion.

The times I lurk on this forum, all I hear is the talk about HYS and other t-14's. In fact, it is all I hear from most law school hopefuls. While there is no doubt our passion to attend t-14 schools are no different from our non-URM counterparts (job prospects), our job outlook is similar to the boost that we receive in law school admission. It appears that we, including myself, pursue t-14's because saying "I went to Harvard Law" creates the illusion that we are "better than" others, particularly people in our community. We are willing to take on $200,000 in debt to feed that illusion. What happened to Howard? Though we can still act as the talented tenth in whatever school we attend, why is Howard's median LSAT a 153? The jobs prospects are nearly the same as a t-14 schools. I know some will argue about the quality of education compared to Yale or Stanford, but, would you agree that the quality of the school is determined by the quality of the student body and alum?

Note, I haven't applied to Howard, nor am I saying that we should lower our standards to attend a school like Howard, but I'm asking, why would we consider a school like Howard to be of "lower standard?" just curious :shock: :roll:


No, no they aren't.


elaborate.

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okaygo
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Re: URM 2013-2014 Cycle Thread

Postby okaygo » Sun Jan 05, 2014 1:43 am

viewtopic.php?f=14&t=221964

I see where you are going with the discussion. But I think the majority of us don't want to go to T14s isn't because we are mindless prestige whores. With the job prospects as they stand now, we want to be able to maximize our chances of getting jobs to pay off the substantial debt it takes to go to law school. That is less likely to happen at Howard, per the evidence cited in the thread above.

Plus, I don't think people are just willing to go into debt. From what I've seen it's often advised to take a full ride at CCN over HYS, outside of a desired interest in academia or the like.
Last edited by okaygo on Sun Jan 05, 2014 1:55 am, edited 1 time in total.

blackbirdfly
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Re: URM 2013-2014 Cycle Thread

Postby blackbirdfly » Sun Jan 05, 2014 1:52 am

Check law school transparency

http://www.lstscorereports.com/?school=howard
http://www.lstscorereports.com/?school=gulc
http://www.lstscorereports.com/?school=harvard


You do raise an interesting point, though. I never even considered applying to Howard.

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Mojosodope
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Re: URM 2013-2014 Cycle Thread

Postby Mojosodope » Sun Jan 05, 2014 2:01 am

ktatl14 wrote:I reflected earlier, and was interested in what people on here though about this. Disclaimer: this doesn't represent what I believe, necessarily, but it's purpose is to spark discussion.

The times I lurk on this forum, all I hear is the talk about HYS and other t-14's. In fact, it is all I hear from most law school hopefuls. While there is no doubt our passion to attend t-14 schools are no different from our non-URM counterparts (job prospects), our job outlook is similar to the boost that we receive in law school admission. It appears that we, including myself, pursue t-14's because saying "I went to Harvard Law" creates the illusion that we are "better than" others, particularly people in our community. We are willing to take on $200,000 in debt to feed that illusion. What happened to Howard? Though we can still act as the talented tenth in whatever school we attend, why is Howard's median LSAT a 153? The jobs prospects are nearly the same as a t-14 schools. I know some will argue about the quality of education compared to Yale or Stanford, but, would you agree that the quality of the school is determined by the quality of the student body and alum?

Note, I haven't applied to Howard, nor am I saying that we should lower our standards to attend a school like Howard, but I'm asking, why would we consider a school like Howard to be of "lower standard?" just curious :shock: :roll:


because their job placement isn't very good.

next question

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ThePiedPiper
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Re: URM 2013-2014 Cycle Thread

Postby ThePiedPiper » Sun Jan 05, 2014 2:05 am

Well I can elaborate and give my 0.02 cents. I am not all gun ho crazy about a T14. Prestige was never a factor for me. However, as Okaygo stated people do want to go to a school where they are likely to get a job after they complete law school to pay the debt back. There are many good schools outside the T14 that can offer a person a great quality of life after law school. Breaking the T14 is a great accomplishment but by no means is it the end all be all for some. Like in my case I just want to live comfortably and make a way for others who were less fortunate like me when I grew up.
Last edited by ThePiedPiper on Sun Jan 05, 2014 5:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

ktatl14
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Re: URM 2013-2014 Cycle Thread

Postby ktatl14 » Sun Jan 05, 2014 2:09 am

okaygo wrote:http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=221964

I see where you are going with the discussion. But I think the majority of us don't want to go to T14s because we are mindless prestige whores. With the job prospects as they stand now, we want to be able to maximize our chances of getting jobs to pay off the substantial debt it takes to go to law school. That is less likely to happen at Howard, per the evidence cited in the thread above.

Plus, I don't think people are just willing to go into debt. From what I've seen it's often advised to take a full ride at CCN over HYS, outside of a desired interest in academia or the like.


I agree with the stats and job prospects argument. However, I'd like to offer a hypothetical. Let's say the LSAT determines how well you do in law school, which eventually correlates to how well you do on the bar, if URM's with a 165 or higher attended HU, would it not increase the overall job prospects of HU? Let's look at the stats. Only 64% of HU grads pass the bar the first time, and their overall employment rate is 47.7 percent. I'm not a statistician, but compared to those who bass the bar (96 students) nearly 80% of HU grads (71 students) who pass the bar have a job. (Yale employment score is 82%, not that I'd try to compare HU to Yale). Moreover, nearly 13% (19 students) of HU grads are hired in the NLJ250, which compared to the 65% (96 students) who pass the bar, which is a little over 20% of students, which doesn't necessarily compare to the 40% at HYS, but it isn't a bad stat. This goes to say, if those with higher LSAT scores attending Howard, more HU students will pass the bar, the credibility of a HU law degree would increase, and so would recruitment from the NLJ250. I know this is super hypothetical, but consider it.

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Re: URM 2013-2014 Cycle Thread

Postby ktatl14 » Sun Jan 05, 2014 2:11 am

Mojosodope wrote:
ktatl14 wrote:I reflected earlier, and was interested in what people on here though about this. Disclaimer: this doesn't represent what I believe, necessarily, but it's purpose is to spark discussion.

The times I lurk on this forum, all I hear is the talk about HYS and other t-14's. In fact, it is all I hear from most law school hopefuls. While there is no doubt our passion to attend t-14 schools are no different from our non-URM counterparts (job prospects), our job outlook is similar to the boost that we receive in law school admission. It appears that we, including myself, pursue t-14's because saying "I went to Harvard Law" creates the illusion that we are "better than" others, particularly people in our community. We are willing to take on $200,000 in debt to feed that illusion. What happened to Howard? Though we can still act as the talented tenth in whatever school we attend, why is Howard's median LSAT a 153? The jobs prospects are nearly the same as a t-14 schools. I know some will argue about the quality of education compared to Yale or Stanford, but, would you agree that the quality of the school is determined by the quality of the student body and alum?

Note, I haven't applied to Howard, nor am I saying that we should lower our standards to attend a school like Howard, but I'm asking, why would we consider a school like Howard to be of "lower standard?" just curious :shock: :roll:


because their job placement isn't very good.

next question


you must've done debate?

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Re: URM 2013-2014 Cycle Thread

Postby Mojosodope » Sun Jan 05, 2014 2:15 am

ktatl14 wrote:
Mojosodope wrote:
ktatl14 wrote:I reflected earlier, and was interested in what people on here though about this. Disclaimer: this doesn't represent what I believe, necessarily, but it's purpose is to spark discussion.

The times I lurk on this forum, all I hear is the talk about HYS and other t-14's. In fact, it is all I hear from most law school hopefuls. While there is no doubt our passion to attend t-14 schools are no different from our non-URM counterparts (job prospects), our job outlook is similar to the boost that we receive in law school admission. It appears that we, including myself, pursue t-14's because saying "I went to Harvard Law" creates the illusion that we are "better than" others, particularly people in our community. We are willing to take on $200,000 in debt to feed that illusion. What happened to Howard? Though we can still act as the talented tenth in whatever school we attend, why is Howard's median LSAT a 153? The jobs prospects are nearly the same as a t-14 schools. I know some will argue about the quality of education compared to Yale or Stanford, but, would you agree that the quality of the school is determined by the quality of the student body and alum?

Note, I haven't applied to Howard, nor am I saying that we should lower our standards to attend a school like Howard, but I'm asking, why would we consider a school like Howard to be of "lower standard?" just curious :shock: :roll:


because their job placement isn't very good.

next question


you must've done debate?


and you must write fiction with that imaginative hypothetical you came up with

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Re: URM 2013-2014 Cycle Thread

Postby okaygo » Sun Jan 05, 2014 2:17 am

I don't like your hypothetical. I'm not playing anymore. *passes baton*

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Re: URM 2013-2014 Cycle Thread

Postby blackbirdfly » Sun Jan 05, 2014 2:18 am

That escalated quickly.

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Re: URM 2013-2014 Cycle Thread

Postby ktatl14 » Sun Jan 05, 2014 2:20 am

Mojosodope wrote:
ktatl14 wrote:
Mojosodope wrote:
ktatl14 wrote:I reflected earlier, and was interested in what people on here though about this. Disclaimer: this doesn't represent what I believe, necessarily, but it's purpose is to spark discussion.

The times I lurk on this forum, all I hear is the talk about HYS and other t-14's. In fact, it is all I hear from most law school hopefuls. While there is no doubt our passion to attend t-14 schools are no different from our non-URM counterparts (job prospects), our job outlook is similar to the boost that we receive in law school admission. It appears that we, including myself, pursue t-14's because saying "I went to Harvard Law" creates the illusion that we are "better than" others, particularly people in our community. We are willing to take on $200,000 in debt to feed that illusion. What happened to Howard? Though we can still act as the talented tenth in whatever school we attend, why is Howard's median LSAT a 153? The jobs prospects are nearly the same as a t-14 schools. I know some will argue about the quality of education compared to Yale or Stanford, but, would you agree that the quality of the school is determined by the quality of the student body and alum?

Note, I haven't applied to Howard, nor am I saying that we should lower our standards to attend a school like Howard, but I'm asking, why would we consider a school like Howard to be of "lower standard?" just curious :shock: :roll:


because their job placement isn't very good.

next question


you must've done debate?


and you must write fiction with that imaginative hypothetical you came up with


Yes indeed, wrote the story of your life , because for some reason you think you matter. With that being said, I have love for you bro, so no hard feelings. Thanks for the comment though. If you'd like to offer a detailed critique to my hypothetical, I'd appreciate it.

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Re: URM 2013-2014 Cycle Thread

Postby Mojosodope » Sun Jan 05, 2014 2:29 am

ktatl14 wrote:Yes indeed, wrote the story of your life , because for some reason you think you matter. With that being said, I have love for you bro, so no hard feelings. Thanks for the comment though. If you'd like to offer a detailed critique to my hypothetical, I'd appreciate it.


because I said that Howard's job placement is bad? I would say that about a lot of schools.

But LSAT score does not equal school prestige, bar passage, or job prospects. There are plenty of schools with a fairly decent median LSAT that don't place students well.

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Re: URM 2013-2014 Cycle Thread

Postby ktatl14 » Sun Jan 05, 2014 2:37 am

Mojosodope wrote:
ktatl14 wrote:Yes indeed, wrote the story of your life , because for some reason you think you matter. With that being said, I have love for you bro, so no hard feelings. Thanks for the comment though. If you'd like to offer a detailed critique to my hypothetical, I'd appreciate it.


because I said that Howard's job placement is bad? I would say that about a lot of schools.

But LSAT score does not equal school prestige, bar passage, or job prospects. There are plenty of schools with a fairly decent median LSAT that don't place students well.


I agree. However, I think what makes Howard an exception, and what could potentially give Howard boost, is their uniqueness as the best HBCU Law School. If HU made it way into the top50, (which could only happen if their LSAT and GPA medians increase and their bar passage, which I think definitely correlates to the quality of students attending HU), HU would be even more attractive as a place for top firms to recruit minority grads. Undoubtedly, law firms would still prefer minority grads from t-14's but the job prospects at HU would increase.

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Re: URM 2013-2014 Cycle Thread

Postby Mojosodope » Sun Jan 05, 2014 2:41 am

ktatl14 wrote:
Mojosodope wrote:
ktatl14 wrote:Yes indeed, wrote the story of your life , because for some reason you think you matter. With that being said, I have love for you bro, so no hard feelings. Thanks for the comment though. If you'd like to offer a detailed critique to my hypothetical, I'd appreciate it.


because I said that Howard's job placement is bad? I would say that about a lot of schools.

But LSAT score does not equal school prestige, bar passage, or job prospects. There are plenty of schools with a fairly decent median LSAT that don't place students well.


I agree. However, I think what makes Howard an exception, and what could potentially give Howard boost, is their uniqueness as the best HBCU Law School. If HU made it way into the top50, (which could only happen if their LSAT and GPA medians increase and their bar passage, which I think definitely correlates to the quality of students attending HU), HU would be even more attractive as a place for top firms to recruit minority grads. Undoubtedly, law firms would still prefer minority grads from t-14's but the job prospects at HU would increase.


Why would anything change if they moved into the top 50? Aren't they considered the best HBCU Law School right now? Why is their placement so bad as we speak?

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Re: URM 2013-2014 Cycle Thread

Postby ktatl14 » Sun Jan 05, 2014 2:54 am

Mojosodope wrote:
ktatl14 wrote:
Mojosodope wrote:
ktatl14 wrote:Yes indeed, wrote the story of your life , because for some reason you think you matter. With that being said, I have love for you bro, so no hard feelings. Thanks for the comment though. If you'd like to offer a detailed critique to my hypothetical, I'd appreciate it.


because I said that Howard's job placement is bad? I would say that about a lot of schools.

But LSAT score does not equal school prestige, bar passage, or job prospects. There are plenty of schools with a fairly decent median LSAT that don't place students well.


I agree. However, I think what makes Howard an exception, and what could potentially give Howard boost, is their uniqueness as the best HBCU Law School. If HU made it way into the top50, (which could only happen if their LSAT and GPA medians increase and their bar passage, which I think definitely correlates to the quality of students attending HU), HU would be even more attractive as a place for top firms to recruit minority grads. Undoubtedly, law firms would still prefer minority grads from t-14's but the job prospects at HU would increase.


Why would anything change if they moved into the top 50? Aren't they considered the best HBCU Law School right now? Why is their placement so bad as we speak?


My argument is their placement is below 47% because only 65% of HU grads pass the bar. If their rank increase, it would mean their bar passage rate increase, which would make more than 96 of the 148 students employable. Their employment in the legal field is 47 percent, whereas their overall employment rate is over 80%, correct me if I'm wrong.

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Re: URM 2013-2014 Cycle Thread

Postby JodieLovesChachi » Sun Jan 05, 2014 6:38 am

ktatl14 wrote:
Mojosodope wrote:
ktatl14 wrote:Yes indeed, wrote the story of your life , because for some reason you think you matter. With that being said, I have love for you bro, so no hard feelings. Thanks for the comment though. If you'd like to offer a detailed critique to my hypothetical, I'd appreciate it.


because I said that Howard's job placement is bad? I would say that about a lot of schools.

But LSAT score does not equal school prestige, bar passage, or job prospects. There are plenty of schools with a fairly decent median LSAT that don't place students well.


I agree. However, I think what makes Howard an exception, and what could potentially give Howard boost, is their uniqueness as the best HBCU Law School. If HU made it way into the top50, (which could only happen if their LSAT and GPA medians increase and their bar passage, which I think definitely correlates to the quality of students attending HU), HU would be even more attractive as a place for top firms to recruit minority grads. Undoubtedly, law firms would still prefer minority grads from t-14's but the job prospects at HU would increase.


While most of what you've said is only conjecture, I like where you're coming from. At some point, we need to start thinking like this instead of allowing "brain drain" to decrease the quality of our schools.

Additionally, it should be said that job placement is more than merely the percentages that a particular school boasts of (this is especially true for students of color, since we are such a minority in the job market anyway). If the combination of LSAT and GPA scores correlate (somewhat) with success in law school, attending HU with an LSAT and GPA index significantly higher than the school's 75th percentile gives you a fighter's shot at performing at the top of your class--not an insignificant factor in securing job placement at a highly recruited (relative to its tier) law school.

That being said, who's brave enough to take that plunge? Those employment numbers are enough to make an applicant hesitate. Like Big Sean said in Control, "power moves only..."

Still though, (since I can't post gifs yet):
"Nxggas lookin' like PREACH!" :shock:

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Re: URM 2013-2014 Cycle Thread

Postby JodieLovesChachi » Sun Jan 05, 2014 6:43 am

BTW, I DID apply to Howard this cycle because I've thought about this same discussion.

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Re: URM 2013-2014 Cycle Thread

Postby Futuregohan14 » Sun Jan 05, 2014 10:52 am

ktatl14 wrote: If you'd like to offer a detailed critique to my hypothetical, I'd appreciate it.


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ktatl14 wrote:I reflected earlier, and was interested in what people on here though about this. Disclaimer: this doesn't represent what I believe, necessarily, but it's purpose is to spark discussion.

The times I lurk on this forum, all I hear is the talk about HYS and other t-14's. In fact, it is all I hear from most law school hopefuls. While there is no doubt our passion to attend t-14 schools are no different from our non-URM counterparts (job prospects), our job outlook is similar to the boost that we receive in law school admission.


...if we attend quality schools.

It appears that we, including myself, pursue t-14's because saying "I went to Harvard Law" creates the illusion that we are "better than" others, particularly people in our community.


No, not really. I just want a high-paying job that will help me kick off a successful and lucrative legal career. Harvard is good for that, as are other T-14s. Howard is not so good.

What happened to Howard?


I dunno. Who cares?

Though we can still act as the talented tenth in whatever school we attend, why is Howard's median LSAT a 153?


Because those with better scores tend to have better options and rarely choose to attend Howard.

The jobs prospects are nearly the same as a t-14 schools.


--ImageRemoved--

No

I know some will argue about the quality of education compared to Yale or Stanford, but, would you agree that the quality of the school is determined by the quality of the student body and alum?


In part and to a degree.

Note, I haven't applied to Howard, nor am I saying that we should lower our standards to attend a school like Howard, but I'm asking, why would we consider a school like Howard to be of "lower standard?"


...because it is?

ktatl14 wrote:

I agree with the stats and job prospects argument. However, I'd like to offer a hypothetical. Let's say the LSAT determines how well you do in law school,


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_7_xHsce57c

Skip to 15:00 in that video. 16% of one's law school GPA is attributable (read: can be predicted by) the test. The other 80% comes down to work ethic, fit, persona, discipline, etc.

Thus, you're right to note that we can say that the LSAT determines how well you do in law school...but only up to a certain extent.

which eventually correlates to how well you do on the bar,


Maybe...to an extent.

if URM's with a 165 or higher attended HU, would it not increase the overall job prospects of HU?


Those students would not come unless the caliber of HU as an institution of learning increased substantially (read: better teaching, better administration, superior financial aid, better placement, etc). The decision of 165+ AAs not to attend HU is not the root cause of HU's poor overall job prospects. Those prospects are primarily the product of HU's relatively sub-par quality as an institution of learning (relative to T-14 and quite a few Tier One schools).

Even if said students did come, you must keep in mind what I mentioned above: only 16% of one's law school GPA is predicted by the LSAT. The rest comes down to other factors. Some of these factors are tied to the caliber of the institution itself: how good is the instruction? How strong is the curriculum? How good is job placement and fin. aid (read: how stressed are students about their ability to make a living after law school and avoid debt)?

Howard pales in comparison to elite Law schools when it comes to these factors, and that could blunt the performance of any high scoring URMs who chose to attend. They'd be exposed to inferior instruction at Howard relative to the T-14/T20 they could be attending and may not reach their full potential, which isn't a good outcome for anyone.

Let's look at the stats. Only 64% of HU grads pass the bar the first time and their overall employment rate is 47.7 percent. I'm not a statistician, but compared to those who bass the bar (96 students) nearly 80% of HU grads (71 students) who pass the bar have a job.


So?

The fact is that the school can't get two-thirds of its graduates to pass the bar. You might try to make HU look better by telling me that 80% of their grads who do pass get jobs, but that's meaningless to me when I can attend a T-14 where 85-90% of ALL grads find gainful employment.

HU is strong for a Third Tier school, but that's it. Your stats say nothing more than that.

Moreover, nearly 13% (19 students) of HU grads are hired in the NLJ250, which compared to the 65% (96 students) who pass the bar, which is a little over 20% of students, which doesn't necessarily compare to the 40% at HYS, but it isn't a bad stat.


It is good for a Tier Three school.

This goes to say, if those with higher LSAT scores attending Howard, more HU students will pass the bar, the credibility of a HU law degree would increase, and so would recruitment from the NLJ250. I know this is super hypothetical, but consider it.


I don't see the point of the hypothetical. Rational higher caliber students with relatively high LSAT scores aren't going to attend Howard until the credibility of its degree increases, and that won't happen until it improves as an institution of learning and can match better schools in terms of instructor quality, job placement, financial aid, etc, etc.

Any scenario in which said students begin attending Howard en masse before its credibility rises is too implausible to consider. High-scoring URMs simply aren't that daft. Incentives drive behavior, and there is no incentive right now for these high scoring URMs to consider Howard ahead of the multiple T-14s and T20s they have to choose from.

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Re: URM 2013-2014 Cycle Thread

Postby okaygo » Sun Jan 05, 2014 2:45 pm

I'm feeling good about next week.

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Re: URM 2013-2014 Cycle Thread

Postby mandyjay11 » Sun Jan 05, 2014 2:55 pm

okaygo wrote:I'm feeling good about next week.


Who are you waiting on ? Gw and who else?

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Re: URM 2013-2014 Cycle Thread

Postby okaygo » Sun Jan 05, 2014 2:57 pm

mandyjay11 wrote:
okaygo wrote:I'm feeling good about next week.


Who are you waiting on ? Gw and who else?


NYU, UVA, Penn & USC.

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Re: URM 2013-2014 Cycle Thread

Postby mandyjay11 » Sun Jan 05, 2014 3:07 pm

okaygo wrote:
mandyjay11 wrote:
okaygo wrote:I'm feeling good about next week.


Who are you waiting on ? Gw and who else?


NYU, UVA, Penn & USC.


Ahhh ok !

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Re: URM 2013-2014 Cycle Thread

Postby okaygo » Sun Jan 05, 2014 3:08 pm

Where are you waiting on Mandy?

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Re: URM 2013-2014 Cycle Thread

Postby mandyjay11 » Sun Jan 05, 2014 3:10 pm

okaygo wrote:Where are you waiting on Mandy?


Every-frickin-where Cornell, Penn , UVA, NYU, Harvard, W&M, Emory, Chicago, USC, Stanford, Michigan, Duke, GULC, & GW




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