URM 2013-2014 Cycle Thread

(BLS, URM status, non-traditional, GLBT)
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twenty
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Re: URM 2013-2014 Cycle Thread

Postby twenty » Tue Oct 22, 2013 12:56 am

Also, for what it's worth, going from biglaw to government is totally a thing. As is, (which I was very surprised at) going from government back into biglaw. The vast majority of the honors attorneys with my agency have been with the agency for only few years. After that, they usually jump ship for other (better paying) options.

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Dr.Zer0
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Re: URM 2013-2014 Cycle Thread

Postby Dr.Zer0 » Tue Oct 22, 2013 1:12 am

twentypercentmore wrote:Also, for what it's worth, going from biglaw to government is totally a thing. As is, (which I was very surprised at) going from government back into biglaw. The vast majority of the honors attorneys with my agency have been with the agency for only few years. After that, they usually jump ship for other (better paying) options.



In your opinion, what's easier, from gov to big law or vice versa?

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twenty
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Re: URM 2013-2014 Cycle Thread

Postby twenty » Tue Oct 22, 2013 1:50 am

As with almost everything, it depends. My particular agency does almost all of its hiring via honors, but another agency that I have a few friends working at does almost all of its hiring from biglaw laterals that get burned out. Some government components, like AUSA in SDNY, basically hire no one except biglaw alumni, preferably with a clerkship under their belts. Others, like DOJ lateral white collar won't even look at you if you don't have 4-8 years of JAG in the prosecution seat.

I can't speak too much going the other way, but I can give a little detail on my agency. A large and very surprising number of people from my agency leave within the first six months because they realize very quickly on that the only thing they're going to be doing with their JDs is labor law so long as they stay. We also do a lot of contract law (appeals mostly) and a specific type of law that would make a lateral very appealing to certain transactional-heavy firms. Those guys leave after a few years, usually to mid-law spots that pay market that don't usually hire grads.

I'd imagine an attorney coming from SBA, SEC, CFPB (I'm continually stunned at the experience these people get as first years), certain DOJ spots, and FTC laterals are swimming in biglaw opportunities. DOL, DoEd, and FCC maybe not so much.

So. Long answer to your short question: with obvious exceptions, it's probably easier going from bigfed -> biglaw, BUT it's way easier getting biglaw (from a T14) in the first place.

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Re: URM 2013-2014 Cycle Thread

Postby sassybassy » Tue Oct 22, 2013 8:11 am

I think you're over generalizing. I can't imagine even with work experience a person with a degree from a non-T14 would beat out a person with a degree from say Yale for a coveted government agency position. I think it depends on what level you're looking at. T14 is name recognition and a great deal of their alumni who have decided to take the government route are well and highly placed from my understanding. Just look at the Obama administration. Like anywhere, it's about who you know.

I think schools like GW place a significant number of grads in government positions because of the type of students who choose that school and not necessarily because they have better programs or the like. Most students at T14 schools want Big Law and consequently end up at Big Law.

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AAJD2B
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Re: URM 2013-2014 Cycle Thread

Postby AAJD2B » Tue Oct 22, 2013 8:13 am

Futuregohan14 wrote:
AAJD2B wrote:Yup, Future. This is why so many AA URMs on this forum are pushing hard and are advised to not settle for sub-165 LSAT scores.


Honest question: why is the bar set at 165 specifically? The data above seem to indicate pretty strong chances for scores even below that (161-164, with the bulk of the 162+ camp having a good shot at YHS) and I'm sure someone could argue for setting the bar above that (ex: 167 or 170+), so why is 165 the bar to push for?

I'm genuinely curious. Why not 163, 164 or 166? Why specifically 165? Is there some data backing that standard up that I haven't seen? Or is it just kind of arbitrary?

There is just too much at stake-- free rides, major $$$$$ and acceptances at a T3 -- to settle for less, especially if you know you can/have been scoring higher on practice tests.


The message I was trying to get across in the last shouting contest I engaged in here was that if the bolded does not apply (as it did not in my case), one should not feel any qualms about having a 161-164 type of score, assuming they've done at least one re-take, have a good GPA and have peaked as far as their prep/practice tests go.

That's the reasonable conclusion in my mind. You can feel free to disagree (I suspect most here still do), but I'm done arguing about it.


The 165 threshold is for $$$ purposes and by extension negotiations between top schools vying for top AA applicants. Sure, a 160-164 can land AA applicants into some of the top law schools in the country but seldom, if ever, are they accepted with a substantial scholarship. Exceptions to this are H, S and Columbia, which are known to be stingy with giving away $$$.

The goal is not only acceptance into a great law school but acceptance without the debt. A 165 or higher makes this reality a stronger possibility.

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Re: URM 2013-2014 Cycle Thread

Postby AAJD2B » Tue Oct 22, 2013 8:31 am

Mandyjay and EvMont, any updates on your Penn visit? :mrgreen:

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Percival Jenkins
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Re: URM 2013-2014 Cycle Thread

Postby Percival Jenkins » Tue Oct 22, 2013 8:49 am

viewtopic.php?f=14&t=195443

http://www.americanbar.org/content/dam/ ... eckdam.pdf

I posted this last year in the Black and Law School: By The Numbers thread last year. The amicus brief the ABA filed with the Supreme Court last year for the Fisher case stated that there were only 63 black applicants 3.5+/165+ during the 09-10 cycle. To put that in perspective, since the 09-10 cycle there has been a little bit over a 20% dip in blacks who take the LSAT, and that will probably continue to decline this year. The drop in and black applicants in general may mean that there are even less than that around today. With HYS taking in more than 63 blacks in just one cycle, 165 is the only number that we have as minorities that gives a sense of where we stand. Plus its the most concrete numbers that I and others have seen about GPA and LSAT. Now this does not count the folks with really high GPAs (think 3.9+)/ 160-164, who seem to have no problem making into HYS, and even a 165 will leave you out in the cold at Y. But of course the TCR will always be SHOOT FOR 180.

ETA The numbers for Hispanics are the ABA report as well.

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Re: URM 2013-2014 Cycle Thread

Postby AAJD2B » Tue Oct 22, 2013 9:53 am

Nick, correct me if I am wrong but given the thread you reference, in 2009-2010, of the roughly 14,500 AA/Black prospectives sitting for the test, 88 scored at or higher than a 164???? That roughly accounts for .6%.

And of your crunched numbers for the 2011-2012 cycle, of the roughly 11,400 AA/Black prospectives sitting for the test, 57 scored at or higher than 164...which accounts for .4% of applicants.

If this is true, I am flabbergasted. :?

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Percival Jenkins
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Re: URM 2013-2014 Cycle Thread

Postby Percival Jenkins » Tue Oct 22, 2013 10:20 am

AAJD2B wrote:Nick, correct me if I am wrong but given the thread you reference, in 2009-2010, of the roughly 14,500 AA/Black prospectives sitting for the test, 88 scored at or higher than a 164???? That roughly accounts for .6%.

And of your crunched numbers for the 2011-2012 cycle, of the roughly 11,400 AA/Black prospectives sitting for the test, 57 scored at or higher than 164...which accounts for .4% of applicants.

If this is true, I am flabbergasted. :?


Yes, but there are caveats. The first is that LSAC still averages scores for their research, schools don't. The second is that we assumed a normal distribution of scores, which is LSAC does not do. So I would say that the numbers are higher, probably not by much though. That was just to give people an idea of the information that's out there. But where we get into trouble is that 3.5 seems to be a minimum to be competitive at HYS and other top schools for URMs. The farther you dip below 3.5, the higher your LSAT has to be. Then again some will be locked out no matter how high their LSAT is because their GPA is too low. So while the information that LSAC publishes is helpful, its incomplete because we don't have anything on the GPAs of people that score that high. That's why the ABA brief was so interesting, because it added the GPA data that we needed for context.

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Re: URM 2013-2014 Cycle Thread

Postby anubis1911 » Tue Oct 22, 2013 10:27 am

So take me for example. I am sitting on a 3.67 GPA (3.7 at the end of the semester) and a 165 LSAT as an AA male. You are saying that I am a virtual lock for HLS? I find that remarkably hard to believe, although I really want to.

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Re: URM 2013-2014 Cycle Thread

Postby Percival Jenkins » Tue Oct 22, 2013 10:32 am

anubis1911 wrote:So take me for example. I am sitting on a 3.67 GPA (3.7 at the end of the semester) and a 165 LSAT as an AA male. You are saying that I am a virtual lock for HLS? I find that remarkably hard to believe, although I really want to.


Lock, no. Competitive, yes. But you still need to put together a stellar application. Plus, I would say that H is the only one of HYS where applying early makes a big difference for URMs. Last cycle there were some really competitive URMs that applied in January but were waitlisted. Ironically, all of them ended up in at Stanford.

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Re: URM 2013-2014 Cycle Thread

Postby mandyjay11 » Tue Oct 22, 2013 10:40 am

AAJD2B wrote:Mandyjay and EvMont, any updates on your Penn visit? :mrgreen:


The visit was nice! We sat in on a Civ Pro class and we got to see how the professor calls on students. It looked like this Professor had a "next in line" system and the questions they were being asked, they got beforehand. That helped ease my anxieties a little, because I always though they just asked you random things out of the blue.

After that we got a tour that wasn't as much as a tour as it was the 2L asking us if we had questions while showing us a few places in the building.

The Q&A was the most informative. Lot's of the same stuff you read on the internet. We got the normal "we look at your application holistically and we dont have a number below which we dont read the full application" speech. But what was new to me was that Penn has a mentorship program that every students gets to take advantage of where you get a faculty mentor, a administration mentor, an alumni mentor and a 3 L mentor.

I also asked if there was any truth to the idea that if we apply early decision and are accepted that we get less aid. She said no, the aid is considered in March at the same time as everyone else who is accepted. ED just means that you really want to come to Penn and we dont want to penalize you or trap you because you really love our school.

I was also informed that there is a 1 week program for about 10 students before they start law school (for which they provide scholarships) that is like an introduction to what law school will be like. As I understood it, this is separate from orientation and more of getting a few students an idea of what the work will be like.

They also talked about how 1Ls were assisted in finding positions for 1L summer and those people who dont go the normal route of working for a judge or as a SA are given opportunities to do research. I got the impression that they want to make sure everyone has something to do during the 1L summer.

Other than that, there was really not much that we haven't discussed in this forum already. I did realize as I was talking to EvMont that there are really no full-time Black Male/ Hispanic Male professors, but I do not know if that is the norm or not.

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Re: URM 2013-2014 Cycle Thread

Postby lemons » Tue Oct 22, 2013 10:44 am

nick1 wrote:
anubis1911 wrote:So take me for example. I am sitting on a 3.67 GPA (3.7 at the end of the semester) and a 165 LSAT as an AA male. You are saying that I am a virtual lock for HLS? I find that remarkably hard to believe, although I really want to.


Lock, no. Competitive, yes. But you still need to put together a stellar application. Plus, I would say that H is the only one of HYS where applying early makes a big difference for URMs. Last cycle there were some really competitive URMs that applied in January but were waitlisted. Ironically, all of them ended up in at Stanford.


Do you think someone who identifies as hispanic (or MA) with similar stats would also be competitive? because my understanding is that more MAs are applying and are attending law schools. basically, does more spots mean that a 3.5+ UGPA and 165 LSAT from MAs are equally competitive?

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Re: URM 2013-2014 Cycle Thread

Postby AAJD2B » Tue Oct 22, 2013 11:05 am

mandyjay11 wrote:
AAJD2B wrote:Mandyjay and EvMont, any updates on your Penn visit? :mrgreen:


The visit was nice! We sat in on a Civ Pro class and we got to see how the professor calls on students. It looked like this Professor had a "next in line" system and the questions they were being asked, they got beforehand. That helped ease my anxieties a little, because I always though they just asked you random things out of the blue.

After that we got a tour that wasn't as much as a tour as it was the 2L asking us if we had questions while showing us a few places in the building.

The Q&A was the most informative. Lot's of the same stuff you read on the internet. We got the normal "we look at your application holistically and we dont have a number below which we dont read the full application" speech. But what was new to me was that Penn has a mentorship program that every students gets to take advantage of where you get a faculty mentor, a administration mentor, an alumni mentor and a 3 L mentor.

I also asked if there was any truth to the idea that if we apply early decision and are accepted that we get less aid. She said no, the aid is considered in March at the same time as everyone else who is accepted. ED just means that you really want to come to Penn and we dont want to penalize you or trap you because you really love our school.

I was also informed that there is a 1 week program for about 10 students before they start law school (for which they provide scholarships) that is like an introduction to what law school will be like. As I understood it, this is separate from orientation and more of getting a few students an idea of what the work will be like.

They also talked about how 1Ls were assisted in finding positions for 1L summer and those people who dont go the normal route of working for a judge or as a SA are given opportunities to do research. I got the impression that they want to make sure everyone has something to do during the 1L summer.

Other than that, there was really not much that we haven't discussed in this forum already. I did realize as I was talking to EvMont that there are really no full-time Black Male/ Hispanic Male professors, but I do not know if that is the norm or not.


Wow Mandy, thank you for the thorough review!! Is UPenn your top choice?? I like the fact that 1Ls have such an extensive mentorship program. This is reassuring.

Yeah, I am not surprised by the non-existence of black/Hispanic male faculty. There are so few attending law school to begin with. :(

Can you speak to the faculties of the school and the feel amongst students? Did it appear friendly?
Last edited by AAJD2B on Tue Oct 22, 2013 11:10 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: URM 2013-2014 Cycle Thread

Postby AAJD2B » Tue Oct 22, 2013 11:08 am

As a side note, I spoke to a member of admissions from UVA during the LSAC forum and he advised I send it my app now, even without an LSAT score. I am thinking of sending my app out. It will be my first. I have a fee waiver too. Any thoughts on this??

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Re: URM 2013-2014 Cycle Thread

Postby lemons » Tue Oct 22, 2013 11:14 am

AAJD2B wrote:As a side note, I spoke to a member of admissions from UVA during the LSAC forum and he advised I send it my app now, even without an LSAT score. I am thinking of sending my app out. It will be my first. I have a fee waiver too. Any thoughts on this??


AAJ2B did you take the October LSAT? I've never heard of sending in incomplete apps and having that give you any type of early boost. I attended a virtual talk with Dean Anne Richard and she said they don't review applications until they are complete. But also, the Oct. LSAT scores are probably coming out within the next week so I don't think it would hurt that much to wait.

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Re: URM 2013-2014 Cycle Thread

Postby EvMont » Tue Oct 22, 2013 11:25 am

AAJD2B wrote:
mandyjay11 wrote:
AAJD2B wrote:Mandyjay and EvMont, any updates on your Penn visit? :mrgreen:


The visit was nice! We sat in on a Civ Pro class and we got to see how the professor calls on students. It looked like this Professor had a "next in line" system and the questions they were being asked, they got beforehand. That helped ease my anxieties a little, because I always though they just asked you random things out of the blue.

After that we got a tour that wasn't as much as a tour as it was the 2L asking us if we had questions while showing us a few places in the building.

The Q&A was the most informative. Lot's of the same stuff you read on the internet. We got the normal "we look at your application holistically and we dont have a number below which we dont read the full application" speech. But what was new to me was that Penn has a mentorship program that every students gets to take advantage of where you get a faculty mentor, a administration mentor, an alumni mentor and a 3 L mentor.

I also asked if there was any truth to the idea that if we apply early decision and are accepted that we get less aid. She said no, the aid is considered in March at the same time as everyone else who is accepted. ED just means that you really want to come to Penn and we dont want to penalize you or trap you because you really love our school.

I was also informed that there is a 1 week program for about 10 students before they start law school (for which they provide scholarships) that is like an introduction to what law school will be like. As I understood it, this is separate from orientation and more of getting a few students an idea of what the work will be like.

They also talked about how 1Ls were assisted in finding positions for 1L summer and those people who dont go the normal route of working for a judge or as a SA are given opportunities to do research. I got the impression that they want to make sure everyone has something to do during the 1L summer.

Other than that, there was really not much that we haven't discussed in this forum already. I did realize as I was talking to EvMont that there are really no full-time Black Male/ Hispanic Male professors, but I do not know if that is the norm or not.


Wow Mandy, thank you for the thorough review!! Is UPenn your top choice?? I like the fact that 1Ls have such an extensive mentorship program. This is reassuring.

Yeah, I am not surprised by the non-existence of black/Hispanic male faculty. There are so few attending law school to begin with. :(

Can you speak to the faculties of the school and the feel amongst students? Did it appear friendly?



As Mandyjay mentioned, the second part was a guided tour. The school seemed pretty small (4 or 5 interconnect buildings with a small quad in the middle), but I'm starting to realize that's just how it is for law schools. All of Penn's schools are in the same general location. So even though the law school is in it's own little enclave, it's a really close walk to everything else "Penn." Note: the grand pink room you see in all of the brochures was EMPTY, which surprised me.

The third part was a presentation from admissions. A lot of this was standard (e.g. optional essays are really optional, DS and Why Penn are not necessary). They also told us that each application is read by 2-4 people, and decisions are rendered 8-12 weeks after submission. For people who've taken the LSAT more than once, you should consider writing an addendum if your score changes by 3+ pts. BUt, the addendum can be just a few sentences explaining you were sick, studied more/differently, whatever the case may be.

A few things I heard again and again: 1) students really aren't competitive, and Penn has a really collegial/collaborate environment. The school has tons or clinic, externship, journal (etc.) opportunites given the number of students that there isn't any reason for competition. 2) Supposedly, they don't issue class rankings, even by percentile. (I'm not sure if this is always true, but they definitely don't do for OCI). 3) Doing a joint degree is REALLY easy, and those who want to are encouraged to do it.

The night before, I met up with a friend from ug who's a 1L at Penn (AA male). He said there are only 16 AAs (9 male, 6 female) in his class, and they all definitely look out for each other. He also said admissions had approached them for help in recruit more AAs. According to him, they seemed a little desperate for AAs. I'm not sure how this jives with Penn's tendency to YP. So, take it how you will.

I really enjoyed my visit to Penn. I'll definitely be applying.

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Re: URM 2013-2014 Cycle Thread

Postby mandyjay11 » Tue Oct 22, 2013 11:44 am

AAJD2B wrote:
mandyjay11 wrote:
AAJD2B wrote:Mandyjay and EvMont, any updates on your Penn visit? :mrgreen:


The visit was nice! We sat in on a Civ Pro class and we got to see how the professor calls on students. It looked like this Professor had a "next in line" system and the questions they were being asked, they got beforehand. That helped ease my anxieties a little, because I always though they just asked you random things out of the blue.

After that we got a tour that wasn't as much as a tour as it was the 2L asking us if we had questions while showing us a few places in the building.

The Q&A was the most informative. Lot's of the same stuff you read on the internet. We got the normal "we look at your application holistically and we dont have a number below which we dont read the full application" speech. But what was new to me was that Penn has a mentorship program that every students gets to take advantage of where you get a faculty mentor, a administration mentor, an alumni mentor and a 3 L mentor.

I also asked if there was any truth to the idea that if we apply early decision and are accepted that we get less aid. She said no, the aid is considered in March at the same time as everyone else who is accepted. ED just means that you really want to come to Penn and we dont want to penalize you or trap you because you really love our school.

I was also informed that there is a 1 week program for about 10 students before they start law school (for which they provide scholarships) that is like an introduction to what law school will be like. As I understood it, this is separate from orientation and more of getting a few students an idea of what the work will be like.

They also talked about how 1Ls were assisted in finding positions for 1L summer and those people who dont go the normal route of working for a judge or as a SA are given opportunities to do research. I got the impression that they want to make sure everyone has something to do during the 1L summer.

Other than that, there was really not much that we haven't discussed in this forum already. I did realize as I was talking to EvMont that there are really no full-time Black Male/ Hispanic Male professors, but I do not know if that is the norm or not.


Wow Mandy, thank you for the thorough review!! Is UPenn your top choice?? I like the fact that 1Ls have such an extensive mentorship program. This is reassuring.

Yeah, I am not surprised by the non-existence of black/Hispanic male faculty. There are so few attending law school to begin with. :(

Can you speak to the faculties of the school and the feel amongst students? Did it appear friendly?


The school and the students appeared really friendly many of them introducing themselves to us during the class. It doesn't seem like a competitive environment at all, they way the students explain it. They also said they don't do GPA or class ranking so during OCI the interviewers just talk with the people who bid on the firm.

The faculty is very impressive though, I must say. I am very impressed by Dorothy Roberts, so impressed that I am putting her in my Why X statement. Most of these professors are legitimately leaders in their field.

As for the building, EvMont mentioned it seemed small. In comparison to other campuses it is actually quite large and one of the most updated law schools I have been to. A private courtyard encompassed by 4 buildings makes it it's own little community and you will rarely if ever run into outside people in the school.


Does this answer your question?

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twenty
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Re: URM 2013-2014 Cycle Thread

Postby twenty » Tue Oct 22, 2013 12:06 pm

sassybassy wrote:I think you're over generalizing. I can't imagine even with work experience a person with a degree from a non-T14 would beat out a person with a degree from say Yale for a coveted government agency position. I think it depends on what level you're looking at. T14 is name recognition and a great deal of their alumni who have decided to take the government route are well and highly placed from my understanding. Just look at the Obama administration. Like anywhere, it's about who you know.

I think schools like GW place a significant number of grads in government positions because of the type of students who choose that school and not necessarily because they have better programs or the like. Most students at T14 schools want Big Law and consequently end up at Big Law.


There's no question there's a significant amount of self-selection and that a good portion of T14 students are gunning for biglaw right out of 1L. The idea that GWU places a larger number of grads due to their location is not entirely true, as evidenced from American, and their ranking on USNWR doesn't explain it either, since the schools before and after it have substantially lower government/PI placement.

That said, the overgeneralizing is absolutely what happens. I've personally seen it -- as I mentioned, I have lunch with the guy in charge of our agency's attorney hiring for the west, and he was mentioning how they'd just hired a Santa Clara grad and turned down a Berkeley grad; and this was a regular occurrence. The feeling for PI/Govt hiring is that the school matters far, far less than it does for biglaw/federal clerkships. Many agencies are so paranoid of school preference that they forward the applications on to hiring officials with the school name redacted.

The one major exception to this is DOJ Honors.

The Obama administration is very different from run-of-the-mill hiring, since most of those people DID go to places where school name matters a lot (ACLU, biglaw, SCOTUS clerkships, etc.)

Anyway, not saying that HYS is a terrible idea; far from it. :P Just make sure you understand how PI/govt hiring works before you jump in. It's very different from biglaw hiring.

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Re: URM 2013-2014 Cycle Thread

Postby mandyjay11 » Tue Oct 22, 2013 12:13 pm

sassybassy wrote:I think you're over generalizing. I can't imagine even with work experience a person with a degree from a non-T14 would beat out a person with a degree from say Yale for a coveted government agency position. I think it depends on what level you're looking at. T14 is name recognition and a great deal of their alumni who have decided to take the government route are well and highly placed from my understanding. Just look at the Obama administration. Like anywhere, it's about who you know.

I think schools like GW place a significant number of grads in government positions because of the type of students who choose that school and not necessarily because they have better programs or the like. Most students at T14 schools want Big Law and consequently end up at Big Law.



speaking of GW http://www.washingtoncitypaper.com/blog ... wait-list/

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Re: URM 2013-2014 Cycle Thread

Postby sassybassy » Tue Oct 22, 2013 12:48 pm

Twentypercentmore, I think you misunderstand me. I don't think GW enjoys advantages because of its location, but rather because of the interests of the types of students who choose to attend law there.

If you're goal isn't a high-level position or prestigious organization but rather government agency positions in general, then I completely agree that attending a T14 confers almost no advantages and may put you at a disadvantage because of your potential salary requirements - at least that's what I read about nonprofits. In those cases, I would think that a MPP or MPA would make more sense.

Mandyjay11 - OMG! That hurts my and my LSAC fee waiver's feelings. Lol. That's shocking! You think it's the same for their law school? Do other schools do that also?

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Re: URM 2013-2014 Cycle Thread

Postby mandyjay11 » Tue Oct 22, 2013 12:52 pm

sassybassy wrote:Twentypercentmore, I think you misunderstand me. I don't think GW enjoys advantages because of its location, but rather because of the interests of the types of students who choose to attend law there.

If you're goal isn't a high-level position or prestigious organization but rather government agency positions in general, then I completely agree that attending a T14 confers almost no advantages and may put you at a disadvantage because of your potential salary requirements - at least that's what I read about nonprofits. In those cases, I would think that a MPP or MPA would make more sense.

Mandyjay11 - OMG! That hurts my and my LSAC fee waiver's feelings. Lol. That's shocking! You think it's the same for their law school? Do other schools do that also?



Haha I have no clue if they do this at the law school, but I just found it to be so ridiculous.

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Re: URM 2013-2014 Cycle Thread

Postby Mojosodope » Tue Oct 22, 2013 1:00 pm

AAJD2B wrote:
Futuregohan14 wrote:
AAJD2B wrote:Yup, Future. This is why so many AA URMs on this forum are pushing hard and are advised to not settle for sub-165 LSAT scores.


Honest question: why is the bar set at 165 specifically? The data above seem to indicate pretty strong chances for scores even below that (161-164, with the bulk of the 162+ camp having a good shot at YHS) and I'm sure someone could argue for setting the bar above that (ex: 167 or 170+), so why is 165 the bar to push for?

I'm genuinely curious. Why not 163, 164 or 166? Why specifically 165? Is there some data backing that standard up that I haven't seen? Or is it just kind of arbitrary?

There is just too much at stake-- free rides, major $$$$$ and acceptances at a T3 -- to settle for less, especially if you know you can/have been scoring higher on practice tests.


The message I was trying to get across in the last shouting contest I engaged in here was that if the bolded does not apply (as it did not in my case), one should not feel any qualms about having a 161-164 type of score, assuming they've done at least one re-take, have a good GPA and have peaked as far as their prep/practice tests go.

That's the reasonable conclusion in my mind. You can feel free to disagree (I suspect most here still do), but I'm done arguing about it.


The 165 threshold is for $$$ purposes and by extension negotiations between top schools vying for top AA applicants. Sure, a 160-164 can land AA applicants into some of the top law schools in the country but seldom, if ever, are they accepted with a substantial scholarship. Exceptions to this are H, S and Columbia, which are known to be stingy with giving away $$$.

The goal is not only acceptance into a great law school but acceptance without the debt. A 165 or higher makes this reality a stronger possibility.


H and S aren't stingy they just only give need-based aid

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twenty
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Re: URM 2013-2014 Cycle Thread

Postby twenty » Tue Oct 22, 2013 1:13 pm

Twentypercentmore, I think you misunderstand me. I don't think GW enjoys advantages because of its location, but rather because of the interests of the types of students who choose to attend law there.


That could very well be. Personally, I think it's a career services officer hell-bent on placing students in PI/Govt, but I have no ability to back that up; so our theories are about equal. :P

If you're goal isn't a high-level position or prestigious organization but rather government agency positions in general, then I completely agree that attending a T14 confers almost no advantages and may put you at a disadvantage because of your potential salary requirements - at least that's what I read about nonprofits. In those cases, I would think that a MPP or MPA would make more sense.


Yeah, but you can't practice law with an MPP/MPA. We're talking about agency attorney hiring -- though I agree that in a lot of cases an MPP/MPA would be more beneficial to an agency-hopeful.

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Percival Jenkins
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Re: URM 2013-2014 Cycle Thread

Postby Percival Jenkins » Tue Oct 22, 2013 2:27 pm

lemons wrote:
nick1 wrote:
anubis1911 wrote:So take me for example. I am sitting on a 3.67 GPA (3.7 at the end of the semester) and a 165 LSAT as an AA male. You are saying that I am a virtual lock for HLS? I find that remarkably hard to believe, although I really want to.


Lock, no. Competitive, yes. But you still need to put together a stellar application. Plus, I would say that H is the only one of HYS where applying early makes a big difference for URMs. Last cycle there were some really competitive URMs that applied in January but were waitlisted. Ironically, all of them ended up in at Stanford.


Do you think someone who identifies as hispanic (or MA) with similar stats would also be competitive? because my understanding is that more MAs are applying and are attending law schools. basically, does more spots mean that a 3.5+ UGPA and 165 LSAT from MAs are equally competitive?


To be honest I am not sure.




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