URM 2013-2014 Cycle Thread Forum

[Percival Jenkins]

As a side note, I spoke to a member of admissions from UVA during the LSAC forum and he advised I send it my app now, even without an LSAT score. I am thinking of sending my app out. It will be my first. I have a fee waiver too. Any thoughts on this??

I would actually do this but only if you are applying for this year no matter your LSAT score and only if you are completely satisfied with your application as is. It probably wont mean an earlier decision. But do you want them to process your application during down time or when they doing 1000 other applicants as well. I think it would give you some peace of mind, you can check your status checker like a 1000 times before everyone else who took in October can. If you are into that at least.

[Futuregohan14]

The 165 threshold is for $$$ purposes and by extension negotiations between top schools vying for top AA applicants. Sure, a 160-164 can land AA applicants into some of the top law schools in the country but seldom, if ever, are they accepted with a substantial scholarship. Exceptions to this are H, S and Columbia, which are known to be stingy with giving away $$$.

The goal is not only acceptance into a great law school but acceptance without the debt. A 165 or higher makes this reality a stronger possibility.

This makes sense. Thanks for taking the time to provide a reasonable answer. nick1 has also provided a good answer, credit to him.

Nick, I have a quick question for you though.

http://top-law-schools.com/forums/viewt ... 4&t=195443

http://www.americanbar.org/content/dam/ ... eckdam.pdf

I posted this last year in the Black and Law School: By The Numbers thread last year. The amicus brief the ABA filed with the Supreme Court last year for the Fisher case stated that there were only 63 black applicants 3.5+/165+ during the 09-10 cycle.

You noted earlier than the first time the ABA used the "2 or more races" category was in 2012 for Fall 2011 matrics. The data above from the 09-10 cycle refers to the class just before that one, I presume. We've assumed earlier than it is likely that those in the "two or more races" category were just included in with the other individual races (ex: half MA = just Mexcian American, etc).

http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 5#p7172726

Since the info we're discussing is from 09-10, is it therefore quite likely that there are mixed students among the 63 black applicants mentioned by the ABA brief? Would these students still be grouped in generally among "black" applicants in the numbers for later cycles, or would they be separated out?

Yes, but there are caveats. The first is that LSAC still averages scores for their research, schools don't. The second is that we assumed a normal distribution of scores, which is LSAC does not do. So I would say that the numbers are higher, probably not by much though.

So we think that the actual numbers aren't dead-on with the normal distribution analysis, but pretty close. You say they are probably higher (read: the numbers given by the normal distrib analysis underestimate the number of high scoring AAs, but just slightly), but is it also possible that they could be lower (the normal distrib analysis overestimates the number of high scoring AAs, though just slightly)? Do we have anything that allows us to lean one way or the other here?

[Futuregohan14]

Nick, correct me if I am wrong but given the thread you reference, in 2009-2010, of the roughly 14,500 AA/Black prospectives sitting for the test, 88 scored at or higher than a 164???? That roughly accounts for .6%.

And of your crunched numbers for the 2011-2012 cycle, of the roughly 11,400 AA/Black prospectives sitting for the test, 57 scored at or higher than 164...which accounts for .4% of applicants.

If this is true, I am flabbergasted.

I was taken aback to but upon further reading I think this makes sense. Check the By the Numbers thread again:

http://top-law-schools.com/forums/viewt ... 5#p6918378

The general trend among LSAT test takers points to a general decline in the overall number of test-takers, but a disproportionately large decline among the higher scorers.
In that post there's some data showing that the mean for AA test-takers has been declining in recent years as well, which would indicate that this broader trend touches AAs too.

So fewer people overall are taking the test, which means fewer AAs are taking the test, and even fewer potentially high-scoring AAs are taking the test (just as even fewer high scorers overall are taking the test), which means fewer AAs getting 164+ and a corresponding decrease in the overall mean scores for AAs. It all lines up.

[Percival Jenkins]

The 165 threshold is for $$$ purposes and by extension negotiations between top schools vying for top AA applicants. Sure, a 160-164 can land AA applicants into some of the top law schools in the country but seldom, if ever, are they accepted with a substantial scholarship. Exceptions to this are H, S and Columbia, which are known to be stingy with giving away $$$.

The goal is not only acceptance into a great law school but acceptance without the debt. A 165 or higher makes this reality a stronger possibility.

This makes sense. Thanks for taking the time to provide a reasonable answer. nick1 has also provided a good answer, credit to him.

Nick, I have a quick question for you though.

http://top-law-schools.com/forums/viewt ... 4&t=195443

http://www.americanbar.org/content/dam/ ... eckdam.pdf

I posted this last year in the Black and Law School: By The Numbers thread last year. The amicus brief the ABA filed with the Supreme Court last year for the Fisher case stated that there were only 63 black applicants 3.5+/165+ during the 09-10 cycle.

You noted earlier than the first time the ABA used the "2 or more races" category was in 2012 for Fall 2011 matrics. The data above from the 09-10 cycle refers to the class just before that one, I presume. We've assumed earlier than it is likely that those in the "two or more races" category were just included in with the other individual races (ex: half MA = just Mexcian American, etc).

http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 5#p7172726

Since the info we're discussing is from 09-10, is it therefore quite likely that there are mixed students among the 63 black applicants mentioned by the ABA brief? Would these students still be grouped in generally among "black" applicants in the numbers for later cycles, or would they be separated out?

Yes, but there are caveats. The first is that LSAC still averages scores for their research, schools don't. The second is that we assumed a normal distribution of scores, which is LSAC does not do. So I would say that the numbers are higher, probably not by much though.

So we think that the actual numbers aren't dead-on with the normal distribution analysis, but pretty close. You say they are probably higher (read: the numbers given by the normal distrib analysis underestimate the number of high scoring AAs, but just slightly), but is it also possible that they could be lower (the normal distrib analysis overestimates the number of high scoring AAs, though just slightly)? Do we have anything that allows us to lean one way or the other here?

The answer to the first question it depends but I believe its more likely that they dont include multiracial applicants. The ABA brief is based on info they got from LSAC, LSAC has always allowed people to check that they are multiracial when taking the LSAT which is where LSAC gathers their data from. So I believe its more likely that they are talking about people who identified themselves as only AA.

I say that the numbers are probably higher because LSAC still averages test takers that retake the LSAT. So in a way the data is already skewed lower than it really is, since LSAC averages people who retake it undermines the data for the purposes that we care about. Lets say there is a person with a 165 and a 155, LSAC looks at that as a 160. Schools, which is the only thing that matters to us, look at this as a 165. But a person with a 160 average LSAT wont be included in the higher score band with someone who scored a 165 on the first try. Which leaves me to assume that the data is skewed lower.

[Dr.Zer0]

[redacted]

[AAJD2B]

As a side note, I spoke to a member of admissions from UVA during the LSAC forum and he advised I send it my app now, even without an LSAT score. I am thinking of sending my app out. It will be my first. I have a fee waiver too. Any thoughts on this??

AAJ2B did you take the October LSAT? I've never heard of sending in incomplete apps and having that give you any type of early boost. I attended a virtual talk with Dean Anne Richard and she said they don't review applications until they are complete. But also, the Oct. LSAT scores are probably coming out within the next week so I don't think it would hurt that much to wait.

Hey lemons, yes, I did sit in October. Thanks for your insight. I actually went ahead and sent in my application as advised by one of the school's adcomm. I am not sure why Dean Richard and this particular representative are saying differently. Either way, I noted the school requested my report. They are waiting for my score. Fingers crossed that I did well.

[AAJD2B]

Mandyjay and EvMont, any updates on your Penn visit?

The visit was nice! We sat in on a Civ Pro class and we got to see how the professor calls on students. It looked like this Professor had a "next in line" system and the questions they were being asked, they got beforehand. That helped ease my anxieties a little, because I always though they just asked you random things out of the blue.

After that we got a tour that wasn't as much as a tour as it was the 2L asking us if we had questions while showing us a few places in the building.

The Q&A was the most informative. Lot's of the same stuff you read on the internet. We got the normal "we look at your application holistically and we dont have a number below which we dont read the full application" speech. But what was new to me was that Penn has a mentorship program that every students gets to take advantage of where you get a faculty mentor, a administration mentor, an alumni mentor and a 3 L mentor.

I also asked if there was any truth to the idea that if we apply early decision and are accepted that we get less aid. She said no, the aid is considered in March at the same time as everyone else who is accepted. ED just means that you really want to come to Penn and we dont want to penalize you or trap you because you really love our school.

I was also informed that there is a 1 week program for about 10 students before they start law school (for which they provide scholarships) that is like an introduction to what law school will be like. As I understood it, this is separate from orientation and more of getting a few students an idea of what the work will be like.

They also talked about how 1Ls were assisted in finding positions for 1L summer and those people who dont go the normal route of working for a judge or as a SA are given opportunities to do research. I got the impression that they want to make sure everyone has something to do during the 1L summer.

Other than that, there was really not much that we haven't discussed in this forum already. I did realize as I was talking to EvMont that there are really no full-time Black Male/ Hispanic Male professors, but I do not know if that is the norm or not.

Wow Mandy, thank you for the thorough review!! Is UPenn your top choice?? I like the fact that 1Ls have such an extensive mentorship program. This is reassuring.

Yeah, I am not surprised by the non-existence of black/Hispanic male faculty. There are so few attending law school to begin with.

Can you speak to the faculties of the school and the feel amongst students? Did it appear friendly?

As Mandyjay mentioned, the second part was a guided tour. The school seemed pretty small (4 or 5 interconnect buildings with a small quad in the middle), but I'm starting to realize that's just how it is for law schools. All of Penn's schools are in the same general location. So even though the law school is in it's own little enclave, it's a really close walk to everything else "Penn." Note: the grand pink room you see in all of the brochures was EMPTY, which surprised me.

The third part was a presentation from admissions. A lot of this was standard (e.g. optional essays are really optional, DS and Why Penn are not necessary). They also told us that each application is read by 2-4 people, and decisions are rendered 8-12 weeks after submission. For people who've taken the LSAT more than once, you should consider writing an addendum if your score changes by 3+ pts. BUt, the addendum can be just a few sentences explaining you were sick, studied more/differently, whatever the case may be.

A few things I heard again and again: 1) students really aren't competitive, and Penn has a really collegial/collaborate environment. The school has tons or clinic, externship, journal (etc.) opportunites given the number of students that there isn't any reason for competition. 2) Supposedly, they don't issue class rankings, even by percentile. (I'm not sure if this is always true, but they definitely don't do for OCI). 3) Doing a joint degree is REALLY easy, and those who want to are encouraged to do it.

The night before, I met up with a friend from ug who's a 1L at Penn (AA male). He said there are only 16 AAs (9 male, 6 female) in his class, and they all definitely look out for each other. He also said admissions had approached them for help in recruit more AAs. According to him, they seemed a little desperate for AAs. I'm not sure how this jives with Penn's tendency to YP. So, take it how you will.

I really enjoyed my visit to Penn. I'll definitely be applying.

Wow, thanks for sharing your experience as well. I am now really excited to visit on Friday. I am sort of surprised that they only recruited 16 AAs. I was expecting a bit more. If they want more AAs they should stop YPing us!

[AAJD2B]

Mandyjay and EvMont, any updates on your Penn visit?

The visit was nice! We sat in on a Civ Pro class and we got to see how the professor calls on students. It looked like this Professor had a "next in line" system and the questions they were being asked, they got beforehand. That helped ease my anxieties a little, because I always though they just asked you random things out of the blue.

After that we got a tour that wasn't as much as a tour as it was the 2L asking us if we had questions while showing us a few places in the building.

The Q&A was the most informative. Lot's of the same stuff you read on the internet. We got the normal "we look at your application holistically and we dont have a number below which we dont read the full application" speech. But what was new to me was that Penn has a mentorship program that every students gets to take advantage of where you get a faculty mentor, a administration mentor, an alumni mentor and a 3 L mentor.

I also asked if there was any truth to the idea that if we apply early decision and are accepted that we get less aid. She said no, the aid is considered in March at the same time as everyone else who is accepted. ED just means that you really want to come to Penn and we dont want to penalize you or trap you because you really love our school.

I was also informed that there is a 1 week program for about 10 students before they start law school (for which they provide scholarships) that is like an introduction to what law school will be like. As I understood it, this is separate from orientation and more of getting a few students an idea of what the work will be like.

They also talked about how 1Ls were assisted in finding positions for 1L summer and those people who dont go the normal route of working for a judge or as a SA are given opportunities to do research. I got the impression that they want to make sure everyone has something to do during the 1L summer.

Other than that, there was really not much that we haven't discussed in this forum already. I did realize as I was talking to EvMont that there are really no full-time Black Male/ Hispanic Male professors, but I do not know if that is the norm or not.

Wow Mandy, thank you for the thorough review!! Is UPenn your top choice?? I like the fact that 1Ls have such an extensive mentorship program. This is reassuring.

Yeah, I am not surprised by the non-existence of black/Hispanic male faculty. There are so few attending law school to begin with.

Can you speak to the faculties of the school and the feel amongst students? Did it appear friendly?

The school and the students appeared really friendly many of them introducing themselves to us during the class. It doesn't seem like a competitive environment at all, they way the students explain it. They also said they don't do GPA or class ranking so during OCI the interviewers just talk with the people who bid on the firm.

The faculty is very impressive though, I must say. I am very impressed by Dorothy Roberts, so impressed that I am putting her in my Why X statement. Most of these professors are legitimately leaders in their field.

As for the building, EvMont mentioned it seemed small. In comparison to other campuses it is actually quite large and one of the most updated law schools I have been to. A private courtyard encompassed by 4 buildings makes it it's own little community and you will rarely if ever run into outside people in the school.


Does this answer your question?

Yes it certainly has. Thanks Mandy. Now you got me curious about Dorothy Roberts. Off to research her.

[AAJD2B]

FYI everyone, if anyone is interested in history there is a really interesting series called "The African Americans: Many Rivers Crossed" on PBS. It's hosted by Henry Louis Gates, Jr. I was completely unaware about this series until today. It wasn't even widely publicized. Ugh.

Here is the link for more info:

http://www.pbs.org/wnet/african-america ... -to-cross/

[Mojosodope]

FYI everyone, if anyone is interested in history there is a really interesting series called "The African Americans: Many Rivers Crossed" on PBS. It's hosted by Henry Louis Gates, Jr. I was completely unaware about this series until today. It wasn't even widely publicized. Ugh.

Here is the link for more info:

http://www.pbs.org/wnet/african-america ... -to-cross/

A show on PBS, about AA, not publicized? No Way?!

[AAJD2B]

FYI everyone, if anyone is interested in history there is a really interesting series called "The African Americans: Many Rivers Crossed" on PBS. It's hosted by Henry Louis Gates, Jr. I was completely unaware about this series until today. It wasn't even widely publicized. Ugh.

Here is the link for more info:

http://www.pbs.org/wnet/african-america ... -to-cross/

A show on PBS, about AA, not publicized? No Way?!

Exit stage left with your sarcasm. Thank you.

[sassybassy]

I've been debating whether or not to apply to Yale and Stanford. I have the LSAC fee waiver, but these two schools don't honor it in terms of waiving their application fees. They each have their own separate and lengthy processes. Should I apply it would cost an additional $210, which is more than I'm spending on all my other apps combined. I feel like with their acceptance rates, it would be a waste of money.

My decision will largely depend on my LSAT score, but what is the minimum LSAT score do you all think one should obtain before it makes sense to apply to these schools?

[EvMont]

I've been debating whether or not to apply to Yale and Stanford. I have the LSAC fee waiver, but these two schools don't honor it in terms of waiving their application fees. They each have their own separate and lengthy processes. Should I apply it would cost an additional $210, which is more than I'm spending on all my other apps combined. I feel like with their acceptance rates, it would be a waste of money.

My decision will largely depend on my LSAT score, but what is the minimum LSAT score do you all think one should obtain before it makes sense to apply to these schools?

I'm not sure about the LSAT score portion, but I imagine it'll depend on your GPA.

Why would it cost $210? I think Stanford's app fee this year is $100 and Yale's is $60. (Not sure if the $50 makes is difference for you, though.)

[mandyjay11]

I've been debating whether or not to apply to Yale and Stanford. I have the LSAC fee waiver, but these two schools don't honor it in terms of waiving their application fees. They each have their own separate and lengthy processes. Should I apply it would cost an additional $210, which is more than I'm spending on all my other apps combined. I feel like with their acceptance rates, it would be a waste of money.

My decision will largely depend on my LSAT score, but what is the minimum LSAT score do you all think one should obtain before it makes sense to apply to these schools?

I'm not sure about the LSAT score portion, but I imagine it'll depend on your GPA.

Why would it cost $210? I think Stanford's app fee this year is $100 and Yale's is $60. (Not sure if the $50 makes is difference for you, though.)

you have to factor in $25 CRS fee

[EvMont]

I've been debating whether or not to apply to Yale and Stanford. I have the LSAC fee waiver, but these two schools don't honor it in terms of waiving their application fees. They each have their own separate and lengthy processes. Should I apply it would cost an additional $210, which is more than I'm spending on all my other apps combined. I feel like with their acceptance rates, it would be a waste of money.

My decision will largely depend on my LSAT score, but what is the minimum LSAT score do you all think one should obtain before it makes sense to apply to these schools?

I'm not sure about the LSAT score portion, but I imagine it'll depend on your GPA.

Why would it cost $210? I think Stanford's app fee this year is $100 and Yale's is $60. (Not sure if the $50 makes is difference for you, though.)

you have to factor in $25 CRS fee

Ahh, yes. That makes sense. I just assumed the lsac fee waiver would cover those fees for all applications. Oops.

[mandyjay11]

I've been debating whether or not to apply to Yale and Stanford. I have the LSAC fee waiver, but these two schools don't honor it in terms of waiving their application fees. They each have their own separate and lengthy processes. Should I apply it would cost an additional $210, which is more than I'm spending on all my other apps combined. I feel like with their acceptance rates, it would be a waste of money.

My decision will largely depend on my LSAT score, but what is the minimum LSAT score do you all think one should obtain before it makes sense to apply to these schools?

I'm not sure about the LSAT score portion, but I imagine it'll depend on your GPA.

Why would it cost $210? I think Stanford's app fee this year is $100 and Yale's is $60. (Not sure if the $50 makes is difference for you, though.)

you have to factor in $25 CRS fee

Ahh, yes. That makes sense. I just assumed the lsac fee waiver would cover those fees for all applications. Oops.

oh wait... maybe you are right

[sassybassy]

Well, GPA wise I have a 3.7... because I failed a non major course... senior year... due to external factors that were under my control... Hard to explain

[Dr.Zer0]

Well, GPA wise I have a 3.7... because I failed a non major course... senior year... due to external factors that were under my control... Hard to explain

A 165+ would give you a good shot at Stanford...Yale idk its a black box already. But ask yourself, if admitted would you go? If so, I would say its worth the $125 shot. Or why not just apply for their fee waiver, yes its annoying but saving $100 is worth the trouble.

[mt2165]

Well, GPA wise I have a 3.7... because I failed a non major course... senior year... due to external factors that were under my control... Hard to explain

Well if history is any indication, I would say with a 165+ and a 3.7 you have a pretty substantial shot at Stanford.....Yale, eh? I definitely think we're talking very competitively if that LSAT starts approaching or supersedes 170. But that's just what I've observed on this forum.

[twenty]

If you have no interest in going, don't waste your time or money. Trust me, if you have the numbers to get into Stanford, you will have no problem getting into a school you actually want to go to (with lots of money).

For what it's worth, this is why I'm not applying to Cornell or Northwestern.

[AOT]

Quick question: what are the restrictions on identifying as a particular race? I think I filled one of the forms as AA, despite the fact that I'm only half-black, because it seemed like the answer that most closely fits my self-perception, among other things. I'm worried now that it will look strange on the application, because I make no effort to hide my mixed heritage (and wouldn't want to!).

[Mojosodope]

FYI everyone, if anyone is interested in history there is a really interesting series called "The African Americans: Many Rivers Crossed" on PBS. It's hosted by Henry Louis Gates, Jr. I was completely unaware about this series until today. It wasn't even widely publicized. Ugh.

Here is the link for more info:

http://www.pbs.org/wnet/african-america ... -to-cross/

A show on PBS, about AA, not publicized? No Way?!

Exit stage left with your sarcasm. Thank you.

I apologize, how is the show anyway

[twenty]

Quick question: what are the restrictions on identifying as a particular race? I think I filled one of the forms as AA, despite the fact that I'm only half-black, because it seemed like the answer that most closely fits my self-perception, among other things. I'm worried now that it will look strange on the application, because I make no effort to hide my mixed heritage (and wouldn't want to!).

You should check both AA and Caucasian. You'll get the same boost as someone who was fully AA. It really doesn't matter that much anyway, though.

[AAJD2B]

FYI everyone, if anyone is interested in history there is a really interesting series called "The African Americans: Many Rivers Crossed" on PBS. It's hosted by Henry Louis Gates, Jr. I was completely unaware about this series until today. It wasn't even widely publicized. Ugh.

Here is the link for more info:

http://www.pbs.org/wnet/african-america ... -to-cross/

A show on PBS, about AA, not publicized? No Way?!

Exit stage left with your sarcasm. Thank you.

I apologize, how is the show anyway

You should tune in to see. I think any documentary chronologizing the history of our ancestors is a worthwhile watch. We can never have too much information, especially when it comes to our history (much of which has been lost or forgotten).

[AAJD2B]

So I have to muster the energy to complete the following outstanding items:

Why statements for:
Columbia
UPenn
Berkeley
Michigan
Duke

I didn't think it was necessary for Harvard as I can explain why Harvard should I be granted the chance to have a JS1. I did one for Stanford and UVA. None for Chicago (they seem to prefer bare minimum), Georgetown or Northwestern (also have the opportunity to explain via interview). Cornell leaves room in their app to explain why I am interested, so I didn't bother here either.

Should I add any others?

I also need to write my AnBryce statement, after which I should be done on my end! I just need my LSAT score LSAC, please and thanks. Hoping for a Friday or Monday score release.