URM 2013-2014 Cycle Thread Forum

[californiauser]

I apologize if anyone was upset or offended by my discussion of HBCUs. I always think it's an interesting conversation to have especially since research has shown that top schools like pulling from certain, mostly Ivy League, institutions. I enjoy discussions in which there's no definitive yes or no answer because I think seeing how other people think and analyze the same set of facts is fruitful. But I'll let up for the sake of harmony, and let's face it - I'll rep my HBCU til the day I die so I probably wasn't that persuadable from the jump. Lol

It's all love ITT .

+1 just a friendly discussion girl! I see you reppin hard

Does that give me leave to keep talking about this? Because I was having quite a bit of fun. Lmao. I'll just keep going and y'all tell me when to shut it up.

I think this convo is helpful to future applicants in that it helps you weigh all your options. I was born Black. It's not something I can change prior to applying to law school, but it's interesting that it does play some role in the admissions process.

If you look at the list of where students at HYS are coming from in terms of undergrad, the same schools appear frequently, and Howard, Spelman, and Morehouse make a good showing. Not in large numbers perhaps, but they consistently appear.

Yes, but I think this more because of the number of applicants coming from these schools. Obviously a place like UC Berkeley isn't going to have a ton of black matriculants because there are hardly any black undergrads to begin with. It's like what I was saying earlier, if ad coms want to recruit URM students, they'll email HBCUs because it's the easiest surefire way to reach a large number of potential minority applicants.

[Futuregohan14]

I noted earlier in this thread that URMS who attend certain schools may get a slight "boost" from admins at decent law schools. I mentioned the Ivies along with a few elite non-Ivies (Williams, Stanford, Duke, etc):
http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 0#p7263939

I didn't mention it in that post, but my understanding was that, for AAs, top HBCUs (particularly Morehouse, Spelman, Hampton and Howard, but a couple of others as well; some of these schools have been called "Black Ivies") also provide a slight boost.

Johh_Rizzy_Rawls thought that my post was pure BS ("prestige starved school bundling" bothers him greatly; I do hope this post does not upset him too much), but this e-mail you got might indicate that there is indeed some sort of UG preference for URMs out there acting as a positive soft factor.

Or that Columbia just wants more URM's to apply.

Yeah that's probably a factor too.

With regard to HBCUs, my theory was that the brand mattered more than the quality. Because schools are looking for diversity, elite HBCU's end up getting treated a bit more favorably than one might expect looking at their selectivity/numbers/etc. They've got the rep as the "black ivies", which leads many to see them as sort of a default "go-to" source for AA applicants, which might allow an AA with decent numbers from one of those schools to get a bigger leg up than they would at other places outside of the Ivies/Stanford/MIT/Duke/etc.

I think we see that at the graduate level with Howard Law, which outperforms its ranking by a longshot if you look at its biglaw placement rates. Its status as an HBCU is a big reason for that IMO. Because it has a rep as the best HBCU law school, it has more credit among employers looking for diversity (its one of the first sources for diverse applicants that comes to mind), and that allows it to outperform its ranking when it comes to employment outcomes and all that.

From a political standpoint there are benefits as well. If you're trying to look "diverse", it helps to be known as an employer/law school that gives plenty of opportunities to great students from historically black institutions.

That being said, I must attach this disclaimer:

much speculation
cannot prove
such theoretical
very possible
not established
so potential incorrect
so potential correct
many uncertain
wow

[sassybassy]

Unfortunately the list doesn't specify what type of applicant is coming from each school, but I don't imagine Yale would select a Howard grad because they couldn't get an AA Berkeley grad or an Ivy black grad. Yet HU and Spelhouse make a showing most years (from what I've seen) at Yale and Harvard. I don't believe in coincidences.

[wlee1220]

Unfortunately the list doesn't specify what type of applicant is coming from each school, but I don't imagine Yale would select a Howard grad because they couldn't get an AA Berkeley grad or an Ivy black grad. Yet HU and Spelhouse make a showing most years (from what I've seen) at Yale and Harvard. I don't believe in coincidences.

This. Maybe my experiences are unique but the companies, networking opportunities, etc. from my HBCU far exceeded most of my friends with higher GPAs that went to PWIs. Again I don't want to make generalizations, but all things being as equal as possible, my friends from Howard/Spelhouse fared better with employment, grad school, fellowships, etc. than the ones who went to PWIs. I would be hard pressed to believe that someone would come out better coming out of an HBCU than HYPS.

[August Wilson]

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[amc987]

Curious to know if you HBCU grads found there was a decent amount of grade inflation? I have a student who's hell-bent on law school, and she's smartly trying to figure out the best place for her to get good grades. Her alternative at this point is a UC school, and UCs are kind of known for Bs and Cs for freshman classes, so I was just wondering if any of you had any input.

This is a horrible idea. She should go to the school that she likes the best/ where she feels she'll have the best opportunity to explore what she'd like to pursue IN COLLEGE. E.g. if she wants to learn about environmental studies or East Asian literature and a UC has the best program in those fields, maybe that's where she should go. If she loves the HBCU and the feel of that environment, then maybe that's where she should go. The decision shouldn't be based on which school is likely to give her better grades due to grade inflation. People tend to do better where they're happiest and significantly less well where they're miserable, so you can't totally separate the grades a person earns from the environment in which those grades are earned. College is 4 years of her life and it can be a long 4 years if you're in the wrong place. I went to HYPS for UG and even in that "ivory tower" environment, there were plenty of unhappy people who wished they'd attended a different school. In the event that she decides she wants to become an anthropologist or a venture capitalist or an OB/GYN, she should look back on her college years and not regret choosing the school she chose because she thought it would help her get into HYS law school. Once she's in college, she can focus on doing the best she can grade-wise. If she wants to go to law school by the end, then I'm sure she'll be fine.

IMO, the only other major concern should be money. Debt is real, so if her financial aid packages are vastly different and she's debt averse, that might push her towards one school instead of another. Any other consideration is insignificant in comparison.

[ThePiedPiper]

Curious to know if you HBCU grads found there was a decent amount of grade inflation? I have a student who's hell-bent on law school, and she's smartly trying to figure out the best place for her to get good grades. Her alternative at this point is a UC school, and UCs are kind of known for Bs and Cs for freshman classes, so I was just wondering if any of you had any input.

The best place for her to attend would be the place where she would be able to see herself most happy and excel. Part of the reason why people cannot reach their full potential is because of the environment they are in at the time. For example my foster dad was studying for the priesthood and went to a predominantly white instiution where he was the only black person there. The faculty, staff and administration was so out right racist towards him. This affected his grades as well. It wasn't until his diocese sent him to the HBCU Xavier University where he started to excel and his grades reflected this. So I am a firm believer that your environment can affect your abilities. Even though I did not go to an HBCU I know that they actually care about their student's and make sure that learn as opposed to some PWIs. Just my two cents.

[toshiroh]

Unfortunately the list doesn't specify what type of applicant is coming from each school, but I don't imagine Yale would select a Howard grad because they couldn't get an AA Berkeley grad or an Ivy black grad. Yet HU and Spelhouse make a showing most years (from what I've seen) at Yale and Harvard. I don't believe in coincidences.

This. Maybe my experiences are unique but the companies, networking opportunities, etc. from my HBCU far exceeded most of my friends with higher GPAs that went to PWIs. Again I don't want to make generalizations, but all things being as equal as possible, my friends from Howard/Spelhouse fared better with employment, grad school, fellowships, etc. than the ones who went to PWIs. I would be hard pressed to believe that someone would come out better coming out of an HBCU than HYPS.

I dunno. I went to one of HYPS and literally everyone of my black friends got an amazing job right out of college. I know that specifically for things like banking/finance/consulting it's pretty difficult/next to impossible to get one of those jobs without an HYPS on your resume (especially consulting with a Mckinsey/BCG type firm and banking with a morgan stanley/jp morgan/goldman type place to a lesser extent)

I think it kind of depends on what your career goals are, but in terms of networking it's much easier to do so from an institution with a wider alumni base than one limited in large part to one race. That's not to say that the alumni networks at HBCUs aren't valuable, it's just to say that an alumni network with a wider base of alums in more powerful positions in the real world increases your chances of capitalizing on those opportunities with the right effort.

As far as HBCUs producing leaders in many fields, that's totally true. There are plenty everywhere but I'd say that is more the exception than the rule. For every leader you hear about there are several more who fell through the cracks. I'm sure those of you at HBCUs can attest to the fact that a significant portion of your classmates won't graduate or won't graduate in four years. For example, I think Howard's graduation rate is somewhere around 70 percent while Harvard's is around 96 percent for African Americans. That's a pretty wide gap. And when we're talking about law school applicants to places like columbia, I don't think they're giving a boost to an HBCU grad with a 3.0 over an ivy grad with a 3.0 and the same LSAT.

I say all this as someone whose brother graduated from an HBCU and then went to one of HYS for law school. But he was also a boss who would've gotten in had he been white and at a PWI anywhere.

I think that's more of an assumption than reality. Many of my undergrad classmates were recruited specifically by some of these you name, and it could be they were just an outlier, but many of these come to Famu every year, specifically for recruiting purposes. I only know this because I orgranized most of the recruitment seminars through SGA.

Second Bolded- Many more African Americans attend Howard than Harvard, if I'm not mistaken. Of course there's going to be more African Americans who fail to graduate than African Americans at Harvard. That's like saying whites who go to "insert HBCU here" have a 98% graduation rate as opposed to whatever PWI... that just doesn't hold.

[nabadgelyo]

Absent any evidence that attending an HBCU gives you a boost, it doesn't matter at all if attending one should do so. And it looks like a discussion tailor-made to make some people defensive and upset, so I don't really think we need to have it. It won't be helpful to future applicants following this thread because by the time they find it, they'll already have gone to UG. It's not like our speculations--and that is precisely what these comments for the most part are, baseless speculations about the benefit of attending an HBCU in law school admissions--will help them in that respect. I'm going to stand by my (0L) opinion that in the vast majority of cases, your UG doesn't matter. If someone gives me evidence to the contrary, then this conversation will perhaps become useful. Although, just like any other soft, the amount by which you will outperform your numbers will remain unpredictable.

I agree 100% with Midnight Circus on this one -- I don't see a positive resolution to this conversation, and while people might be making valid points, we seem to be talking past one another. In terms of utility, the likelihood that some high school senior is on this thread trying to figure out whether to attend Harvard or Howard is pretty low. Also, they should probably listen to their heart or mom or something and not an internet forum, right? At least, I wouldn't want them deciding based on my personal experience.

[August Wilson]

Absent any evidence that attending an HBCU gives you a boost, it doesn't matter at all if attending one should do so. And it looks like a discussion tailor-made to make some people defensive and upset, so I don't really think we need to have it. It won't be helpful to future applicants following this thread because by the time they find it, they'll already have gone to UG. It's not like our speculations--and that is precisely what these comments for the most part are, baseless speculations about the benefit of attending an HBCU in law school admissions--will help them in that respect. I'm going to stand by my (0L) opinion that in the vast majority of cases, your UG doesn't matter. If someone gives me evidence to the contrary, then this conversation will perhaps become useful. Although, just like any other soft, the amount by which you will outperform your numbers will remain unpredictable.

I agree 100% with Midnight Circus on this one -- I don't see a positive resolution to this conversation, and while people might be making valid points, we seem to be talking past one another. In terms of utility, the likelihood that some high school senior is on this thread trying to figure out whether to attend Harvard or Howard is pretty low. Also, they should probably listen to their heart or mom or something and not an internet forum, right? At least, I wouldn't want them deciding based on my personal experience.

True. College is ultimately about where you'll be happiest enough to thrive. PWIs and HBCUs offer very different experiences but they're both completely worth while and I'm a firm believer that the top students at HBCUs would still be top students at any ivy.

[okaygo]

I probably second guess this whole going to law school thing about 4 times a week.

[mandyjay11]

I probably second guess this whole going to law school thing about 4 times a week.

+1

[Percival Jenkins]

I think that for anybody that reads this thread and wonders, the true answer is that we have no idea. But what I will say is that it does not appear that attending an HBCU will help you outperform your GPA and LSAT, which is really what matters to us in the context of admissions. I think we have to view this in the context of a positive soft. The whole experience is different from what some of us experience at what has been referred to as a PWI. I don't think its a stretch to think that some adcomms could view that experience as something that adds more diversity to the class beyond just being a minority. So I think it probably viewed as a positive soft on par with someone who has a science background or something like that.

Also perception trumps reality in everything related to academia. I would say definitely places Morehouse, Spelman, Howard come with some lay prestige, especially among blacks. It can be helpful down the road if you decide to go the firm route when there are black, the partners would probably love to match you up with them. Just my .02¢

[Percival Jenkins]

I probably second guess this whole going to law school thing about 4 times a week.

+1

what are you guys second guessing? Scared of the debt, not your passion, or what?

[okaygo]

I probably second guess this whole going to law school thing about 4 times a week.

+1

what are you guys second guessing? Scared of the debt, not your passion, or what?

Debt. And also the whole K-JD thing. Like do I really want to go straight into school or should I just live for a couple of years and make money.

Also, I'm studying for finals right now and three more years of this is highly unappealing.

[mandyjay11]

I probably second guess this whole going to law school thing about 4 times a week.

+1

what are you guys second guessing? Scared of the debt, not your passion, or what?

Mine is mostly debt and not being able to get a job and ending up like the depressed people on the Vale of Tears thread.

Also, not getting in anywhere decent.

[ThePiedPiper]

I probably second guess this whole going to law school thing about 4 times a week.

+1

what are you guys second guessing? Scared of the debt, not your passion, or what?

Mine is mostly debt and not being able to get a job and ending up like the depressed people on the Vale of Tears thread.

Also, not getting in anywhere decent.

+1 But then again I am not a T14 or bust kind of person. I feel as long as a person is willing to put in the hard work. They should be able to excel where ever they choose to go. It just might take more work/a little longer to get to that position of satisfactory or comfort. I am just a firm believer if you work hard it will pay off in the long run.

[mandyjay11]

+1 But then again I am not a T14 or bust kind of person. I feel as long as a person is willing to put in the hard work. They should be able to excel where ever they choose to go. It just might take more work/a little longer to get to that position of satisfactory or comfort. I am just a firm believer if you work hard it will pay off in the long run.

You are right. I know plenty of hustlers are Seton Hall and Howard that have big law SA's and full-time offers. I think I'm just nervous about how drastically my life will change once I enter law school.

[Percival Jenkins]

+1 But then again I am not a T14 or bust kind of person. I feel as long as a person is willing to put in the hard work. They should be able to excel where ever they choose to go. It just might take more work/a little longer to get to that position of satisfactory or comfort. I am just a firm believer if you work hard it will pay off in the long run.

You are right. I know plenty of hustlers are Seton Hall and Howard that have big law SA's and full-time offers. I think I'm just nervous about how drastically my life will change once I enter law school.

Agree with PiedPiper, I think we are all concerned about that and I think to a certain extent that its a good thing that we are not naïve about the possibility that we could end up jobless.

@okaygo that's a tough one!

[ThePiedPiper]

+1 But then again I am not a T14 or bust kind of person. I feel as long as a person is willing to put in the hard work. They should be able to excel where ever they choose to go. It just might take more work/a little longer to get to that position of satisfactory or comfort. I am just a firm believer if you work hard it will pay off in the long run.

You are right. I know plenty of hustlers are Seton Hall and Howard that have big law SA's and full-time offers. I think I'm just nervous about how drastically my life will change once I enter law school.

I have actually thought about this as well. It makes me very nervous to know I am so close of obtaining a goal I set for myself since junior high school. Its crazy just to think about. Then I think about the other things like where do I want to live post graduation, what if I change my mind about the type of law I want to practice or how are my classmates going to be once I arrive at the school I choose.

[okaygo]

+1 But then again I am not a T14 or bust kind of person. I feel as long as a person is willing to put in the hard work. They should be able to excel where ever they choose to go. It just might take more work/a little longer to get to that position of satisfactory or comfort. I am just a firm believer if you work hard it will pay off in the long run.

You are right. I know plenty of hustlers are Seton Hall and Howard that have big law SA's and full-time offers. I think I'm just nervous about how drastically my life will change once I enter law school.

I have actually thought about this as well. It makes me very nervous to know I am so close of obtaining a goal I set for myself since junior high school. Its crazy just to think about. The I think about the other things like where do I want to live post graduation, what if I change my mind about the type of law I want to practice or how are my classmates going to be once I arrive at the school I choose.

Yup.

[okaygo]

[Mojosodope]

if your second guessing law school at this point, you probably shouldn't go.

[Kool-Aid]

if your second guessing law school at this point, you probably shouldn't go.

I agree! A couple years of work experience will do nothing but improve your cycle, if you decide to revisit the law school idea.

[AAJD2B]

Has anyone else just received the email from SEO??