URM 2013-2014 Cycle Thread Forum

[amb89]

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[AAJD2B]

It's not hard to learn. The hard part are the office politics and working three times as hard as your Caucasian counterpart to be recognized. Your learning will all come from working as a young associate. While taking classes in law school such as corporations, corporate governance, capital markets, bankruptcy, etc. may help lay the groundwork, the best teacher is experience. Also once in law school, network with other URM alums who are associates. They can speak to what helped them survive their first three years. After your three years, it gets more difficult to keep afloat. Many of us leave by then, whether to other firms (with better opportunities to shine or due to better work politics) to a government agency or quitting altogether.

Sorry for that rant, but it's real out here on these streets. There is a reason why many of us aren't in these offices, let alone making partner.

[californiauser]

It's not hard to learn. The hard part are the office politics and working three times as hard as your Caucasian counterpart to be recognized. Your learning will all come from working as a young associate. While taking classes in law school such as corporations, corporate governance, capital markets, bankruptcy, etc. may help lay the groundwork, the best teacher is experience. Also once in law school, network with other URM alums who are associates. They can speak to what helped them survive their first three years. After your three years, it gets more difficult to keep afloat. Many of us leave by then, whether to other firms (with better opportunities to shin or better work politics, to a government agency or quitting altogether.

Sorry for that rant, but it's real out here on these streets. There is a reason why many of us aren't in these offices, let alone making partner.

Thanks for the info. I frequently look at the new associates' profiles at V100 firms -- it's crazy how few AA male associates there are.

[okaygo]

Question: Does anyone know what state/city UPenn places most of their graduates?
Which brings me to my second question: Did anyone get a diversity package from them in the mail today?

[amb89]

Is anyone coming straight out of undergrad, or have you guys been out for a while?

[MoMettaMonk]

Question: Does anyone know what state/city UPenn places most of their graduates?
Which brings me to my second question: Did anyone get a diversity package from them in the mail today?

Looks mainly like NYC and Philly (or at least New York state and Pennsylvania, but let's be real here). http://www.lstscorereports.com/?school= ... b=location

[okaygo]

Is anyone coming straight out of undergrad, or have you guys been out for a while?

Coming straight from UG. I'm in my senior year now.

[John_rizzy_rawls]

Is anyone coming straight out of undergrad, or have you guys been out for a while?

Straight out of UG but I didn't go to college straight from high school.

[Mojosodope]

Question: Does anyone know what state/city UPenn places most of their graduates?
Which brings me to my second question: Did anyone get a diversity package from them in the mail today?

Most of there graduates go to NYC.

[okaygo]

Question: Does anyone know what state/city UPenn places most of their graduates?
Which brings me to my second question: Did anyone get a diversity package from them in the mail today?

Looks mainly like NYC and Philly (or at least New York state and Pennsylvania, but let's be real here). http://www.lstscorereports.com/?school= ... b=location

Lol, why is DC a blob in the Atlantic Ocean?

[amb89]

.

[amb89]

Is anyone coming straight out of undergrad, or have you guys been out for a while?

Straight out of UG but I didn't go to college straight from high school.

[Athlone McGinnis]

Hey everyone. I'm Athlone. I've been around here for a while.

I'm actually not applying this cycle. I have decided to hold off on Law School and go work for a bit before deciding if I'll dive in or not a couple years down the line. I thought I'd post here anyway since I've found some interesting statistics that may be relevant to your interests.

http://www.thefacultylounge.org/2013/10 ... rther.html

Law School Applicant Pool Likely To Shrink Further

LSAC has now released data about the number of people who sat for the October LSAT. The total number of takers was down 10.9% from October 2012. The number of first time takers was down roughly 13% from last October.

When you pair this data with attendance levels at recent LSAC Law School Forums (law school fairs, essentially) in Boston (down 47% from last year), Houston (down 15.4% from last year) , Miami (down 16.3%), and New York (down 18%), law school admissions teams and law school deans are staring down some grim news. (One contrary data point: the summer LSAC Law School Forum in D.C. showed a decent uptick in attendance.)

We don't yet know the total slide in law school matriculants for this year but many people are guessing that there are roughly 40,000 1L's at ABA schools this fall. The possibilityof yet another 10% dip suggests that most schools will have to make significant concessions in student quality, revenue, or both. What remains to be seen is how many schools will be able to gain additional funding - or radically restructure, how many will simply accept a nosedive in admissions predictors, and how many will simply conclude that the whole project is no longer worth the candle.

I checked the comments on that article and found this from a law school professor:

I attended the conference of the Midwest Association of Pre-law Advisors this past week-end. The programming was terrific. LSAC provided a graph showing that we have had similar cycles since the mid-1960s. This one is a bit more dramatic because we came off all-time highs in hiring and applicants in 2007.

The Dean of Wash U Law School, Kent Syverud, gave a very compelling speech. He says 175 of 202 law schools are operating at a substantial deficit, and the pain is being felt across the board, not just at so-called "marginal" law schools. Applicant numbers, by LSAT score, support that comment.

He also says law schools will cut costs in the following ways (any errors in this summary or mine):

- Private universities may shut down associated law schools, as they did dental schools in an earlier era;
- Schools have let hiring of new faculty grind to a halt;
- Schools will not replace, with a tenure-track faculty member, any faculty member who successfully moves laterally or retires;
- Schools will cut tenured faculty via buy-outs, etc., and use instead much more affordable adjuncts; Skills teachers could be especially hard-hit even at a time when the ABA and the profession are emphasizing skill development;
- Schools will cut staff;
- Schools will consolidate law libraries into main campus libraries;
- Schools will merge (like Texas Wesleyan); or
- Schools will sell out (like Charleston.

Some schools, including Wash U, had increasing enrollments last year. Many schools maintained entry level statistics, but reduced class size to do so.

One speaker predicted that by 2016 or 2017, the number of new jobs in law will exceed the number of new law grads if current trends in applicants and employment continue.

Posted by: Paula Marie Young | October 31, 2013 at 02:34 PM

In my "By the Numbers" thread I talked about how wider trends in the LS applicant pool have touched URMs as well (fewer URMs applying each year, URM median scores declining, etc). I expect these trends to be no different. URM applicant numbers are going to keep decreasing along with GPA/LSAT medians.

My prediction is that in the near future, schools are going to end up fighting a bit harder to secure good applicants, especially higher scoring URMs who are going to be even rarer a commodity than they are now. As the Law School contraction continues, we'll eventually get to the point where the employment picture for law school applicants begins looking a lot better due to lower supply. This will also greatly benefit those aforementioned URMs law schools were fighting for, who will now have an even stronger chance of securing a job (as this thread indicates, they're already in a decent position: http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 14&t=37565)

So, in short, to those who are applying this cycle: hang in there, keep trying. If you can get strong score and get into a decent school now, i think the rewards could be pretty solid 3-5 years down the road. The legal field in this country is undergoing a pretty serious correction, but there may be a dividend at the end of it for those who ride out the wave.

All of this is just speculation on my part, but still something to keep in mind maybe. Good luck to everyone diving in during this cycle!

[californiauser]

If you were to sit down with my sister tomorrow. She would yell at you to never go there. She got in off the waitlist. But anyways, she ended up teaching in texas for a couple of years at a state school. Got tenure quickley and ws making around 150, which is very comfortable for houston. But she hated it she couldn't wait to leave. So she left after she got tenure, and is now investing with her husband. BUT you have to consider that when she went to school, law school numbers were sky rocket and jobs were a lot harder to come by. OOH and shes still paying her fat student loan

Not to go to Penn? Why?

[John_rizzy_rawls]

Great stuff as usual Athlone, thanks for the new info.

[okaygo]

Same here, but i took a year off after i got my associate and then went back. Do you guys on here from UG know each other? lol

Nawp.

[twenty]

There was a AA URM poster who explained the regional effects of T14 schools that I found pretty interesting.

- If you have ties to North Carolina and you want to work there post-grad, Duke > CCN.
- If you have ties to Philly and want to work there post-grad, Penn > CCN
- If you have ties to SF/SV and want to work there post-grad, Cal > CCN
- If you have ties to Chicago, NYC or DC or ties to any area without a T14 school, HYSCCN > everything else.

I'm not sure if I totally agree, but I'd like to hear your guys' thoughts.

[MoMettaMonk]

I knew I recognized that name. Athlone McGinnis of the AA by the Numbers thread.

[mac2013]

I am two years out of undergrad working in DC, but hoping to get a job after law school in Seattle.

[amb89]

If you were to sit down with my sister tomorrow. She would yell at you to never go there. She got in off the waitlist. But anyways, she ended up teaching in texas for a couple of years at a state school. Got tenure quickley and ws making around 150, which is very comfortable for houston. But she hated it she couldn't wait to leave. So she left after she got tenure, and is now investing with her husband. BUT you have to consider that when she went to school, law school numbers were sky rocket and jobs were a lot harder to come by. OOH and shes still paying her fat student loan

Not to go to Penn? Why?

.

[AAJD2B]

amb89, are you applying to Penn Law? Which is your dream law school? Which schools did your sister advise you apply to?

[amb89]

amb89, are you applying to Penn Law? Which is your dream law school? Which schools did your sister advise you apply to?

.

[AAJD2B]

Hey everyone. I'm Athlone. I've been around here for a while.

I'm actually not applying this cycle. I have decided to hold off on Law School and go work for a bit before deciding if I'll dive in or not a couple years down the line. I thought I'd post here anyway since I've found some interesting statistics that may be relevant to your interests.

http://www.thefacultylounge.org/2013/10 ... rther.html

Law School Applicant Pool Likely To Shrink Further

LSAC has now released data about the number of people who sat for the October LSAT. The total number of takers was down 10.9% from October 2012. The number of first time takers was down roughly 13% from last October.

When you pair this data with attendance levels at recent LSAC Law School Forums (law school fairs, essentially) in Boston (down 47% from last year), Houston (down 15.4% from last year) , Miami (down 16.3%), and New York (down 18%), law school admissions teams and law school deans are staring down some grim news. (One contrary data point: the summer LSAC Law School Forum in D.C. showed a decent uptick in attendance.)

We don't yet know the total slide in law school matriculants for this year but many people are guessing that there are roughly 40,000 1L's at ABA schools this fall. The possibilityof yet another 10% dip suggests that most schools will have to make significant concessions in student quality, revenue, or both. What remains to be seen is how many schools will be able to gain additional funding - or radically restructure, how many will simply accept a nosedive in admissions predictors, and how many will simply conclude that the whole project is no longer worth the candle.

I checked the comments on that article and found this from a law school professor:

I attended the conference of the Midwest Association of Pre-law Advisors this past week-end. The programming was terrific. LSAC provided a graph showing that we have had similar cycles since the mid-1960s. This one is a bit more dramatic because we came off all-time highs in hiring and applicants in 2007.

The Dean of Wash U Law School, Kent Syverud, gave a very compelling speech. He says 175 of 202 law schools are operating at a substantial deficit, and the pain is being felt across the board, not just at so-called "marginal" law schools. Applicant numbers, by LSAT score, support that comment.

He also says law schools will cut costs in the following ways (any errors in this summary or mine):

- Private universities may shut down associated law schools, as they did dental schools in an earlier era;
- Schools have let hiring of new faculty grind to a halt;
- Schools will not replace, with a tenure-track faculty member, any faculty member who successfully moves laterally or retires;
- Schools will cut tenured faculty via buy-outs, etc., and use instead much more affordable adjuncts; Skills teachers could be especially hard-hit even at a time when the ABA and the profession are emphasizing skill development;
- Schools will cut staff;
- Schools will consolidate law libraries into main campus libraries;
- Schools will merge (like Texas Wesleyan); or
- Schools will sell out (like Charleston.

Some schools, including Wash U, had increasing enrollments last year. Many schools maintained entry level statistics, but reduced class size to do so.

One speaker predicted that by 2016 or 2017, the number of new jobs in law will exceed the number of new law grads if current trends in applicants and employment continue.

Posted by: Paula Marie Young | October 31, 2013 at 02:34 PM

In my "By the Numbers" thread I talked about how wider trends in the LS applicant pool have touched URMs as well (fewer URMs applying each year, URM median scores declining, etc). I expect these trends to be no different. URM applicant numbers are going to keep decreasing along with GPA/LSAT medians.

My prediction is that in the near future, schools are going to end up fighting a bit harder to secure good applicants, especially higher scoring URMs who are going to be even rarer a commodity than they are now. As the Law School contraction continues, we'll eventually get to the point where the employment picture for law school applicants begins looking a lot better due to lower supply. This will also greatly benefit those aforementioned URMs law schools were fighting for, who will now have an even stronger chance of securing a job (as this thread indicates, they're already in a decent position: http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 14&t=37565)

So, in short, to those who are applying this cycle: hang in there, keep trying. If you can get strong score and get into a decent school now, i think the rewards could be pretty solid 3-5 years down the road. The legal field in this country is undergoing a pretty serious correction, but there may be a dividend at the end of it for those who ride out the wave.

All of this is just speculation on my part, but still something to keep in mind maybe. Good luck to everyone diving in during this cycle!

Athlone, I hope your predictions hold up. Thanks for all of your contributions thus far and best wishes on the job search/new job!

[californiauser]

If you were to sit down with my sister tomorrow. She would yell at you to never go there. She got in off the waitlist. But anyways, she ended up teaching in texas for a couple of years at a state school. Got tenure quickley and ws making around 150, which is very comfortable for houston. But she hated it she couldn't wait to leave. So she left after she got tenure, and is now investing with her husband. BUT you have to consider that when she went to school, law school numbers were sky rocket and jobs were a lot harder to come by. OOH and shes still paying her fat student loan

Not to go to Penn? Why?

I mean, shes making no where close to the money she should have been making. Out of Penn she went into a florida court system making in the high 30's. She literally worked her asssssss offf to even get where shes at now. Yes she may of been one of the unlucky ones, but she could of got a full ride at a lower school and got the same job.. She also said, in her job hunt a lot of people had no idea that Upenn was different from Penn state (i know idiots) but this is real life, so they had no idea she was ivy. Lastly, she went to her 10 year reunion and the majority of her classmates weren't even practicing law anymore, they went a whole different career path, which isnt necessarily bad. I know it sounds like im b.s because people make out penn to be the best school, but my sis went to a ivy leauge and has nothing to show for it. She never wanted to teach, but yes she learned to love it because she was helping people. So maybe it was gods decision, who knows. But not b.s i can post a pic of me and her when i was 12 in front of penn graduating, and the hugeeeeeeee cake they have for graduation. Im not trying to deter anyone, because everyone is different. I just wanted to share the insight i have personally.

Wait, so she struck out at OCI or she never wanted it in the first place?

[AAJD2B]

amb89, are you applying to Penn Law? Which is your dream law school? Which schools did your sister advise you apply to?

She wants me in a columbia, i want NYU. Of course ill take Columbia over NYU if i get in. But she was actually waitlisted at columbia, that was her dream school lol. I do have a few networks with her at the schools, but who knows i have to get my lsat first. She told me penn didnt take her off the waitlist until really late, my parents actually signed a contract on a apartment in D.C because she was going to Georgetown, but then penn came out of no where and dropped everything for the "IVY". I would never go to Penn law after what my sis experienced, and my parents would killl me!!!

Oh wow. I really thought Penn was one of the best, especially for URMs. I visited and loved it dearly. I was, and still am, sold about the school but your story adds a yellow flag.

I hope you do get into you dream school.