GPA Crisis! Forum

[yoruba1]

To give some background, I am a URM (black male) attending one of the prestigious three "Little Ivies." I am a sophomore entering my second semester. I started at this school in the fall of 2011 and attended another university prior to this. My GPA through 3 semesters at this school is 3.414. My cumulative undergraduate GPA, however (which is what the LSAC would look at) is 3.501. I'm the apprehensive sort, and I had been too afraid to ever check my GPA prior to this. I guess I had good reason to fear. Needless to say, I was stunned upon finding that it was this low. I had expected that the GPA at my current institution would be somewhere in the 3.6 range---a figure that wouldn't make me ecstatic, but would leave significant optimism alive. I'm shell-shocked---stunned that I have this mediocre of a GPA. It seems that it's going to take a lot of work to get it up to where it will be competitive for T-14 schools.

LSAT is another issue, of course. I have two of the PowerScore books, Logical Reasoning and Logic Games. I aced the Logical Reasoning section (going through it in late 2010), but the Logic Games book has been quite challenging and I'll probably need a course to really determine my capability in this area. I've slept on the Critical Reading, mostly because I assume it will come easiest, but at some point I'll need to confront this as well to make sure.

I'm trying to get an idea from well-informed posters on this board (whether your information comes from direct experience as a black male applicant or as an admissions officer or otherwise) of what I can do with my situation. How bad off am I, and how much opportunity or room is there for me to realistically improve? For a black male at a "Little Ivy", what kind of numbers I need for a top-tier school? I dream of HYS. That's what I want. Outside of T-6, I would be less likely to actually go to law school, but I'd likely at least apply all T-14. LSAT is obviously a huge question mark, but you could at least suggest a minimum score and a minimum GPA for me to be competitive at HYS, and stats for schools slightly beneath that elite tier.

Thanks.

[vanwinkle]

1) You have two full years left to raise your GPA. Even if it's a 3.4-3.5 now you can bring it up by the time you graduate. Do whatever it takes to improve your study methods and get better grades.

2) In truth, URM admissions are highly variable. Numbers-wise, your cumulative GPA matters, but so does your LSAT score. It's not strictly true, but as a general rule of thumb you can think of it as, the lower your GPA, the higher your LSAT score needs to be, and vice versa. It's better to have the highest possible numbers for both, though, so to put yourself in the best position, just focus on maintaining/raising your GPA for now. With a 3.4-3.5 you're not out of range of T14, or even T6, but the higher you get your GPA the better shape you'll be in.

3) You just finished reading #2 and had a question about the LSAT. Well, the LSAT is learnable, and you won't have to take it for a while, so don't worry about it right now. Come back and ask for LSAT advice in 1-2 years when you need to actually start preparing to take it. Until then don't worry about the LSAT.

[cynthiad]

You're fine. I don't know why you think your GPA isn't competitive for T-14 schools, even someone who isn't URM could get into T-14 with a 3.5. Since you're only a sophomore you could increase it significantly by the time you graduate. Your URM status is the main thing. Your current GPA gives you a chance at H with a decent LSAT, and like I said you can increase your GPA. There's no reason to rule out HYS, the main thing is to maintain or increase your GPA and score 165+, or better yet 170+, on the LSAT. Honestly, a 3.5 GPA is no reason to be "shell-shocked," that is a decent GPA, not a terrible one, I find your post a little melodramatic.

[yoruba1]

Thanks for the thoughtful replies!

@vanwinkle, my study methods are going to have to change completely. Truth be told, I have been a slacker since I’ve been at my current school. I occasionally miss classes, I’m almost always late for classes, I turn in assignments late from time to time, and these things all have an effect of diminishing overall academic performance. I thought that I was getting away with something, but seeing my GPA now I see got what I earned.

I know you say don’t freak out too much about the LSAT, and of course I don’t want anything to impede upon my current coursework, internships, etc. But I do want to get a leg-up on the competition. I guess for the time being it’s best to do that independently and manage my time well.

@cynthiad, I was afraid I would come across as such! Honestly a younger me would have been content with such a GPA, but now that I’ve done extensive research on law schools and law school applications, people on some forums and message boards make it seem like if you have a 3.9 a 175---meh, you’re just about average for the T-6 schools. And it is true that Yale has a 3.9 median. But for the most part I don’ t know what’s true and what’s not, so that’s why I’ve felt that my stats are perhaps not up to par. I keep reading on forums. “Yale turns away 4.0/180s all the time” and I just think Christ, is it really that harsh out there? So, as I said in my original post, I’m just trying to get an idea of how dire (or not) my situation actually is and what I need to do to make myself competitive for HYS and other top law schools.

[dproduct]

@ OP. End of 2nd year I had a 3.01, I finished 4th year with a 3.6. I took summer courses, took the maximum amount of units and busted my ass.

My 3.6 is still pathetic and pitiful, but it sure beats my original 3.01. You can easily bring that GPA up. Honestly, if I knew at the time how important GPA was in applications, I would have contested more GE's for retakes and tried financing a 5th year to get my GPA up over 3.7.

You can do it!

[cynthiad]

@cynthiad, I was afraid I would come across as such! Honestly a younger me would have been content with such a GPA, but now that I’ve done extensive research on law schools and law school applications, people on some forums and message boards make it seem like if you have a 3.9 a 175---meh, you’re just about average for the T-6 schools. And it is true that Yale has a 3.9 median. But for the most part I don’ t know what’s true and what’s not, so that’s why I’ve felt that my stats are perhaps not up to par. I keep reading on forums. “Yale turns away 4.0/180s all the time” and I just think Christ, is it really that harsh out there? So, as I said in my original post, I’m just trying to get an idea of how dire (or not) my situation actually is and what I need to do to make myself competitive for HYS and other top law schools.

I know how stressful law school applications can be, but you're in a very good position right now. There isn't a lot of data for URM applications, but you should assume if you're over a school's 25% GPA and LSAT you have a very good chance. Even if your GPA is below that, it can be mitigated with a high LSAT. I think that your current GPA doesn't rule you out of Harvard and Stanford, and if you bring it up a point or two it won't rule you out of Yale.

I don't think Yale actually turns away 4.0/180s, as long as their applications are well put together. The thing is, once you have the numbers there are a lot of things that can break an application, like weak LORs/PS or a disciplinary record. If I were you, I would focus on getting my GPA up, because even though you're in a very strong position, there's no harm in trying to do better. It's also a good idea to develop good study habits before you go to law school--if you're slacking off in UG, those habits will carry over.

Beyond that, you should focus on making good relationships with professors so that they can write outstanding LORs. It's not a problem if you don't have any right now, because you want professors who you've taken upper-level seminar courses with. So this should be your focus in choosing classes for your junior year: choose classes with small class sizes, do a fantastic job (don't skip class, do play attention and participate in class) and take another class with the 2 best professors the next semester. They will be your recommenders.

As for the LSAT, I wouldn't recommend preparing for it now. However, if you have free time over the summer, you can do some prep then to see where you are. If you get your score up to 170+ over the summer, then you're probably good to keep studying junior year--but only a few hours a week during the school year take the LSAT June after your junior year. However, most people need to do more intensive work to get their score up that high, and if you think you won't be able to devote the time you need to studying without taking time away from your schoolwork, I would really recommend taking a year or two off before applying to law school. If you get some full-time WE this will help you with applications and with getting a legal job down the line.

[yoruba1]

@ OP. End of 2nd year I had a 3.01, I finished 4th year with a 3.6. I took summer courses, took the maximum amount of units and busted my ass.

My 3.6 is still pathetic and pitiful, but it sure beats my original 3.01. You can easily bring that GPA up. Honestly, if I knew at the time how important GPA was in applications, I would have contested more GE's for retakes and tried financing a 5th year to get my GPA up over 3.7.

You can do it!

What is a GE? I'm still getting accustomed to all of the lingo around here. It's great to that determination helped change things up for you. Where are you now?

[yoruba1]

I know how stressful law school applications can be, but you're in a very good position right now. There isn't a lot of data for URM applications, but you should assume if you're over a school's 25% GPA and LSAT you have a very good chance. Even if your GPA is below that, it can be mitigated with a high LSAT. I think that your current GPA doesn't rule you out of Harvard and Stanford, and if you bring it up a point or two it won't rule you out of Yale.

I don't think Yale actually turns away 4.0/180s, as long as their applications are well put together. The thing is, once you have the numbers there are a lot of things that can break an application, like weak LORs/PS or a disciplinary record. If I were you, I would focus on getting my GPA up, because even though you're in a very strong position, there's no harm in trying to do better. It's also a good idea to develop good study habits before you go to law school--if you're slacking off in UG, those habits will carry over.

Beyond that, you should focus on making good relationships with professors so that they can write outstanding LORs. It's not a problem if you don't have any right now, because you want professors who you've taken upper-level seminar courses with. So this should be your focus in choosing classes for your junior year: choose classes with small class sizes, do a fantastic job (don't skip class, do play attention and participate in class) and take another class with the 2 best professors the next semester. They will be your recommenders.

As for the LSAT, I wouldn't recommend preparing for it now. However, if you have free time over the summer, you can do some prep then to see where you are. If you get your score up to 170+ over the summer, then you're probably good to keep studying junior year--but only a few hours a week during the school year take the LSAT June after your junior year. However, most people need to do more intensive work to get their score up that high, and if you think you won't be able to devote the time you need to studying without taking time away from your schoolwork, I would really recommend taking a year or two off before applying to law school. If you get some full-time WE this will help you with applications and with getting a legal job down the line.

You mention Yale Law being a possibility if I can pull myself up around 3.6-3.7 cumulative, but Yale's 25% is like a 3.84 or something crazy like that. I'm just confused, because at this point mathematically there's basically no way I could hit the 3.84 (maybe if I'm perfect or get a few A+ to set off any A- grades). At this point I have no choice but to shoot for the best GPA I can---that means nothing less than an A-, and only those sparingly even. I feel like for Yale, at least, that I'm in a pretty steep hole.

The ball’s in my court at this point. I’m not in a position where I can relax, but I’m also not out of the running. I know you do say to refrain from LSAT study to focus on my academics, but I’m wondering if it would be a good idea to go ahead and take an LSAT course this summer, perhaps the PowerScore course or others that have quality reputations. I feel like it’s never too early for that, and even though I’ll be interning during the summer it might be a good time to balance it out.

I want to know more about “softs” so that I can know how I can work on that. I’ve authored a book on institutional racism (for which I got a book deal in February of 2012), I’ve done four internships/fellowships so far, and that’s basically it. The book could be impressive, but it’s a matter of getting it to publication (I rejected the deal I got because of creative differences with the publisher). I’ve simply been too busy to shop it around more or to look for agents, but I should make more time for it because it can really make a difference. Because of my GPA, I feel like I could be out of the running for Rhodes, Truman, Fulbright, etc. I would need to kick butt and get my GPA to a 3.7, since many of them have this requirement. But are there any suggestions for buttressing my softs? Perhaps write another book?

[jcan91]

Your softs are great and you're really overthinking things right now. You should really browse the URM forum a bit more so you can understand that you seriously have NO reason to worry at this point.

Read this thread in particular. It will be an eye-opener for you.

http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 4&t=195443

[PRgradBYU]

Don't panic, yoruba1... when I was a sophomore, my GPA was a 3.31 at one point. It was hard work but I managed to raise it to a 3.62 by the time I graduated last month. Just make sure to take the LSAT very seriously when that time comes up, as that will likely be the determinant factor to whether you get into a T-5 school, a T-14 school, etc. You have plenty of time to compensate for your GPA (which, in all honesty, really isn't that bad).

Good luck!

[dproduct]

@ OP. End of 2nd year I had a 3.01, I finished 4th year with a 3.6. I took summer courses, took the maximum amount of units and busted my ass.

My 3.6 is still pathetic and pitiful, but it sure beats my original 3.01. You can easily bring that GPA up. Honestly, if I knew at the time how important GPA was in applications, I would have contested more GE's for retakes and tried financing a 5th year to get my GPA up over 3.7.

You can do it!

What is a GE? I'm still getting accustomed to all of the lingo around here. It's great to that determination helped change things up for you. Where are you now?

Sorry, General Education Course. The basic bullshit classes your ugrad requires.

[yoruba1]

Don't panic, yoruba1... when I was a sophomore, my GPA was a 3.31 at one point. It was hard work but I managed to raise it to a 3.62 by the time I graduated last month. Just make sure to take the LSAT very seriously when that time comes up, as that will likely be the determinant factor to whether you get into a T-5 school, a T-14 school, etc. You have plenty of time to compensate for your GPA (which, in all honesty, really isn't that bad).

Good luck!

Thanks for linking me to that thread, jcan91. Thanks again to everyone for the insight. I have to settle down and control what I can. My goal is to pull all As for this semester. It's no simple task, but I have to work as hard as I can regardless. I plan to focus on that and I'm probably going to do an in-class PowerScore Prep Course this summer, in addition to whatever internship I wind up doing.

I hope to get more familiar with you all, as well. I'll be sure to make myself a frequent poster.

[cynthiad]

I know how stressful law school applications can be, but you're in a very good position right now. There isn't a lot of data for URM applications, but you should assume if you're over a school's 25% GPA and LSAT you have a very good chance. Even if your GPA is below that, it can be mitigated with a high LSAT. I think that your current GPA doesn't rule you out of Harvard and Stanford, and if you bring it up a point or two it won't rule you out of Yale.

I don't think Yale actually turns away 4.0/180s, as long as their applications are well put together. The thing is, once you have the numbers there are a lot of things that can break an application, like weak LORs/PS or a disciplinary record. If I were you, I would focus on getting my GPA up, because even though you're in a very strong position, there's no harm in trying to do better. It's also a good idea to develop good study habits before you go to law school--if you're slacking off in UG, those habits will carry over.

Beyond that, you should focus on making good relationships with professors so that they can write outstanding LORs. It's not a problem if you don't have any right now, because you want professors who you've taken upper-level seminar courses with. So this should be your focus in choosing classes for your junior year: choose classes with small class sizes, do a fantastic job (don't skip class, do play attention and participate in class) and take another class with the 2 best professors the next semester. They will be your recommenders.

As for the LSAT, I wouldn't recommend preparing for it now. However, if you have free time over the summer, you can do some prep then to see where you are. If you get your score up to 170+ over the summer, then you're probably good to keep studying junior year--but only a few hours a week during the school year take the LSAT June after your junior year. However, most people need to do more intensive work to get their score up that high, and if you think you won't be able to devote the time you need to studying without taking time away from your schoolwork, I would really recommend taking a year or two off before applying to law school. If you get some full-time WE this will help you with applications and with getting a legal job down the line.

You mention Yale Law being a possibility if I can pull myself up around 3.6-3.7 cumulative, but Yale's 25% is like a 3.84 or something crazy like that. I'm just confused, because at this point mathematically there's basically no way I could hit the 3.84 (maybe if I'm perfect or get a few A+ to set off any A- grades). At this point I have no choice but to shoot for the best GPA I can---that means nothing less than an A-, and only those sparingly even. I feel like for Yale, at least, that I'm in a pretty steep hole.

The ball’s in my court at this point. I’m not in a position where I can relax, but I’m also not out of the running. I know you do say to refrain from LSAT study to focus on my academics, but I’m wondering if it would be a good idea to go ahead and take an LSAT course this summer, perhaps the PowerScore course or others that have quality reputations. I feel like it’s never too early for that, and even though I’ll be interning during the summer it might be a good time to balance it out.

I want to know more about “softs” so that I can know how I can work on that. I’ve authored a book on institutional racism (for which I got a book deal in February of 2012), I’ve done four internships/fellowships so far, and that’s basically it. The book could be impressive, but it’s a matter of getting it to publication (I rejected the deal I got because of creative differences with the publisher). I’ve simply been too busy to shop it around more or to look for agents, but I should make more time for it because it can really make a difference. Because of my GPA, I feel like I could be out of the running for Rhodes, Truman, Fulbright, etc. I would need to kick butt and get my GPA to a 3.7, since many of them have this requirement. But are there any suggestions for buttressing my softs? Perhaps write another book?

That 25% thing is a ballpark, don't worry if you're below it; there aren't a lot of AAs who have the grades you do, a good LSAT score, and are applying to HYS. You should also look at the GPA range--if they have accepted anyone with your GPA, assume you have at least an outside chance.

You can do a course over the summer if you want; as long as you're not taking time away from classes, and you have the money to burn, it can't hurt. But honestly, I think if you're disciplined enough, self-study is more effective (and way cheaper).

Don't assume you're out of the running for all those fellowships and stuff, I mean try to get your GPA up but even if you don't, you should still apply. If you can get a book published, that's an OK soft, but the most important things are GPA and LSAT (and that you're a URM). Beyond that, full-time work experience is a great soft (and will also help you get a post-law school job), so you should consider taking a year or two to work.

[jcan91]

Don't panic, yoruba1... when I was a sophomore, my GPA was a 3.31 at one point. It was hard work but I managed to raise it to a 3.62 by the time I graduated last month. Just make sure to take the LSAT very seriously when that time comes up, as that will likely be the determinant factor to whether you get into a T-5 school, a T-14 school, etc. You have plenty of time to compensate for your GPA (which, in all honesty, really isn't that bad).

Good luck!

Thanks for linking me to that thread, jcan91. Thanks again to everyone for the insight. I have to settle down and control what I can. My goal is to pull all As for this semester. It's no simple task, but I have to work as hard as I can regardless. I plan to focus on that and I'm probably going to do an in-class PowerScore Prep Course this summer, in addition to whatever internship I wind up doing.

I hope to get more familiar with you all, as well. I'll be sure to make myself a frequent poster.

Glad I could help and I'm sure you'll be around more often. Just too get too hooked on this site, it can be quite the time vortex lol. Really though, just do your best and try not to overthink things and psyche yourself out unnecessarily and I'm sure you will be fine!

[BerkeleyBear]

OP, I'd say if you're borderline obsessed with HYS, shoot for the highest LSAT score possible, obviously. That's all you have to do. If you want a definitive number, shoot for 170 or higher. I'm not saying you can't get in with a lower LSAT, but this would be the ideal scenario to put yourself in. The book thing is likely going to be seen as trivial compared to your GPA/LSAT and URM factor so I wouldn't worry about that.

What I don't really understand is:

2010: (LSAT prep w/ Powerscore LR) (first school, freshmen?)
2011: (started school at "little ivy")
2012:
2013: (starting second semester of sophomore year)

Why the hell were you prepping in 2010? And why are you only a sophomore? And what schools are considered the three "little ivies"? I'm assuming Cornell is one of them.

Anyways, if this isn't a flame, I'd suggest to stop fretting and focusing on all those internships + your book and really start improving your GPA for HYS. Eventually aim for 170+ when you actually take the LSAT and hope that SCOTUS doesn't knock down AA in the meantime

[John_rizzy_rawls]

3.5+/172+ is auto-admit at Harvard for URMs so first off, calm down.

Use your last UG years wisely. Take max units and take some easy courses. Getting up to the 3.5-3.7 range shouldn't be difficult with the time you have if you don't slack off.

[yoruba1]

OP, I'd say if you're borderline obsessed with HYS, shoot for the highest LSAT score possible, obviously. That's all you have to do. If you want a definitive number, shoot for 170 or higher. I'm not saying you can't get in with a lower LSAT, but this would be the ideal scenario to put yourself in. The book thing is likely going to be seen as trivial compared to your GPA/LSAT and URM factor so I wouldn't worry about that.

What I don't really understand is:

2010: (LSAT prep w/ Powerscore LR) (first school, freshmen?)
2011: (started school at "little ivy")
2012:
2013: (starting second semester of sophomore year)

Why the hell were you prepping in 2010? And why are you only a sophomore? And what schools are considered the three "little ivies"? I'm assuming Cornell is one of them.

Anyways, if this isn't a flame, I'd suggest to stop fretting and focusing on all those internships + your book and really start improving your GPA for HYS. Eventually aim for 170+ when you actually take the LSAT and hope that SCOTUS doesn't knock down AA in the meantime

So in regards to the discrepancy, I started college in 2010. When I transferred to the "Little Ivy", most of my credits did not count. I was prepping in 2010 just because I wanted to. I went through the PowerScore Logical Reasoning Bible over Winter Break. I've just picked it back up recently, and I recall most of what I learned then, so I do think it was quite beneficial.

I would hope that even if the SCOTUS did knock down AA that schools would find some way of circumventing that in the name of fairness.

[PMan99]

OP, I'd say if you're borderline obsessed with HYS, shoot for the highest LSAT score possible, obviously. That's all you have to do. If you want a definitive number, shoot for 170 or higher. I'm not saying you can't get in with a lower LSAT, but this would be the ideal scenario to put yourself in. The book thing is likely going to be seen as trivial compared to your GPA/LSAT and URM factor so I wouldn't worry about that.

What I don't really understand is:

2010: (LSAT prep w/ Powerscore LR) (first school, freshmen?)
2011: (started school at "little ivy")
2012:
2013: (starting second semester of sophomore year)

Why the hell were you prepping in 2010? And why are you only a sophomore? And what schools are considered the three "little ivies"? I'm assuming Cornell is one of them.

Anyways, if this isn't a flame, I'd suggest to stop fretting and focusing on all those internships + your book and really start improving your GPA for HYS. Eventually aim for 170+ when you actually take the LSAT and hope that SCOTUS doesn't knock down AA in the meantime

So in regards to the discrepancy, I started college in 2010. When I transferred to the "Little Ivy", most of my credits did not count. I was prepping in 2010 just because I wanted to. I went through the PowerScore Logical Reasoning Bible over Winter Break. I've just picked it back up recently, and I recall most of what I learned then, so I do think it was quite beneficial.

I would hope that even if the SCOTUS did knock down AA that schools would find some way of circumventing that in the name of fairness.

Take a look at Boalt's LSN graphs and see for yourself.

[BigJT]

Your URM status is the main thing.