Are these LSN real? Do these things really happen for URMs?

(BLS, URM status, non-traditional, GLBT)
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JayJones78
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Are these LSN real? Do these things really happen for URMs?

Postby JayJones78 » Sun Jan 06, 2013 9:51 pm

http://lawschoolnumbers.com/chiefrfr

http://lawschoolnumbers.com/DwarvenSniper

Do these things happen? URMs in the low 150s getting accepted to duke?

Is it worth while to shoot a little higher just in case? The schools I applied to from the T14 are NW (AJD) Umich (summer start) Cornell and GULC. Out of those I think the only one I really stand some chance with is NW and even there I'm keeping my hopes pretty low.

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BullShitWithBravado
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Re: Are these LSN real? Do these things really happen for URMs?

Postby BullShitWithBravado » Sun Jan 06, 2013 10:05 pm

It happens and I've heard that AA males get a more significant bump than other URMs. That being said, you should probably retake and aim to break into the 160s. Scoring in the 160s would definitely put you in an excellent position to break into the T-14 (and give you a fair shot at being employed in a legal field after graduation). Please don't bank on transferring out to a better school after 1L year.

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JayJones78
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Re: Are these LSN real? Do these things really happen for URMs?

Postby JayJones78 » Sun Jan 06, 2013 10:11 pm

BullShitWithBravado wrote:It happens and I've heard that AA males get a more significant bump than other URMs. That being said, you should probably retake and aim to break into the 160s. Scoring in the 160s would definitely put you in an excellent position to break into the T-14 (and give you a fair shot at being employed in a legal field after graduation). Please don't bank on transferring out to a better school after 1L year.


As I wrote before on my own thread, retaking is not an option for me right now as I won't be eligible for a retake until dec13 and at this point I am not going to wait another year before applying.

I am wondering though if these accounts are real and if AA males (aka me) can honestly get accepted to a school like duke with an LSAT so low? Do you guys know of others with similar stats who got accepted? I can send an app to duke ( I have an LSAC fee waiver so it's not about the wasted $) but until now I was certain that my app would not even get read and would just be tossed away automatically because of the #s.

blackandstrong
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Re: Are these LSN real? Do these things really happen for URMs?

Postby blackandstrong » Sun Jan 06, 2013 11:24 pm

JayJones78 wrote:http://lawschoolnumbers.com/chiefrfr

http://lawschoolnumbers.com/DwarvenSniper

Do these things happen? URMs in the low 150s getting accepted to duke?

Is it worth while to shoot a little higher just in case? The schools I applied to from the T14 are NW (AJD) Umich (summer start) Cornell and GULC. Out of those I think the only one I really stand some chance with is NW and even there I'm keeping my hopes pretty low.


Yes. My AA female friend had a 158. She got into GULC. However, she had a pretty good GPA, too. -- 3.8

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dowu
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Re: Are these LSN real? Do these things really happen for URMs?

Postby dowu » Sun Jan 06, 2013 11:29 pm

blackandstrong wrote:
JayJones78 wrote:http://lawschoolnumbers.com/chiefrfr

http://lawschoolnumbers.com/DwarvenSniper

Do these things happen? URMs in the low 150s getting accepted to duke?

Is it worth while to shoot a little higher just in case? The schools I applied to from the T14 are NW (AJD) Umich (summer start) Cornell and GULC. Out of those I think the only one I really stand some chance with is NW and even there I'm keeping my hopes pretty low.


Yes. My AA female friend had a 158. She got into GULC. However, she had a pretty good GPA, too. -- 3.8

lol I think the OP is referring to someone who is under both 25th percentiles.

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JayJones78
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Re: Are these LSN real? Do these things really happen for URMs?

Postby JayJones78 » Sun Jan 06, 2013 11:30 pm

blackandstrong wrote:
JayJones78 wrote:http://lawschoolnumbers.com/chiefrfr

http://lawschoolnumbers.com/DwarvenSniper

Do these things happen? URMs in the low 150s getting accepted to duke?

Is it worth while to shoot a little higher just in case? The schools I applied to from the T14 are NW (AJD) Umich (summer start) Cornell and GULC. Out of those I think the only one I really stand some chance with is NW and even there I'm keeping my hopes pretty low.


Yes. My AA female friend had a 158. She got into GULC. However, she had a pretty good GPA, too. -- 3.8


Well I believe it with a 158. I am talking 151,153 and 155 highest. There is a big difference IMHO from a 151-53 to a 158

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JayJones78
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Re: Are these LSN real? Do these things really happen for URMs?

Postby JayJones78 » Mon Jan 07, 2013 12:08 am

Wormfather wrote:Sorry, you're not overcoming that GPA with a 151. You'll have some success in the 30s but T25 is a bit of a long shot.


Don't get me wrong. I agree with you. But what I'm asking is do these things happen? (i.e duke with 153 and GPA below 25th?) do things like this happen with the t14s? I'm not saying ill overcome my LSAT to get into duke. Hell I may only get into schools 50 and below.

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Psib337
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Re: Are these LSN real? Do these things really happen for URMs?

Postby Psib337 » Mon Jan 07, 2013 2:06 am

JayJones78 wrote:
Wormfather wrote:Sorry, you're not overcoming that GPA with a 151. You'll have some success in the 30s but T25 is a bit of a long shot.


Don't get me wrong. I agree with you. But what I'm asking is do these things happen? (i.e duke with 153 and GPA below 25th?) do things like this happen with the t14s? I'm not saying ill overcome my LSAT to get into duke. Hell I may only get into schools 50 and below.


I think it happens but there must have been something amazing in their PS and/or DS. If I had to guess though I'd say it's more of the exception than the rule. But if you can't take the LSAT again until december apply and just see what happens, the worst they're gonna do is say no.

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JayJones78
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Re: Are these LSN real? Do these things really happen for URMs?

Postby JayJones78 » Mon Jan 07, 2013 2:37 am

Psib337 wrote:
JayJones78 wrote:
Wormfather wrote:Sorry, you're not overcoming that GPA with a 151. You'll have some success in the 30s but T25 is a bit of a long shot.


Don't get me wrong. I agree with you. But what I'm asking is do these things happen? (i.e duke with 153 and GPA below 25th?) do things like this happen with the t14s? I'm not saying ill overcome my LSAT to get into duke. Hell I may only get into schools 50 and below.


I think it happens but there must have been something amazing in their PS and/or DS. If I had to guess though I'd say it's more of the exception than the rule. But if you can't take the LSAT again until december apply and just see what happens, the worst they're gonna do is say no.


Agreed. Have you heard of others with similar stats that weren accepted higher than Umich?

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Psib337
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Re: Are these LSN real? Do these things really happen for URMs?

Postby Psib337 » Mon Jan 07, 2013 2:50 am

JayJones78 wrote:
Agreed. Have you heard of others with similar stats that weren accepted higher than Umich?


Just the odd LSN profile here and there, but most of my friends haven't (and won't) apply to law school so the only stats I have are people on LSN and TLS. Like I said I'm sure it happens but only with a great PS or DS...but I'm not an admissions expert so I could be wrong.

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Re: Are these LSN real? Do these things really happen for URMs?

Postby sparty99 » Wed Jan 09, 2013 1:06 am

JayJones78 wrote:
Wormfather wrote:Sorry, you're not overcoming that GPA with a 151. You'll have some success in the 30s but T25 is a bit of a long shot.


Don't get me wrong. I agree with you. But what I'm asking is do these things happen? (i.e duke with 153 and GPA below 25th?) do things like this happen with the t14s? I'm not saying ill overcome my LSAT to get into duke. Hell I may only get into schools 50 and below.


Dude, the only thing that you can do is apply and see what happens. You have a FEE WAIVER. You are probably wasting your time being below the LSAT and GPA median, but maybe you are the rare exception who gets into a T14 (doubt it). Your time is best spent applying to all of the T20-T50.

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JayJones78
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Re: Are these LSN real? Do these things really happen for URMs?

Postby JayJones78 » Wed Jan 09, 2013 1:29 am

sparty99 wrote:
JayJones78 wrote:
Wormfather wrote:Sorry, you're not overcoming that GPA with a 151. You'll have some success in the 30s but T25 is a bit of a long shot.


Don't get me wrong. I agree with you. But what I'm asking is do these things happen? (i.e duke with 153 and GPA below 25th?) do things like this happen with the t14s? I'm not saying ill overcome my LSAT to get into duke. Hell I may only get into schools 50 and below.


Dude, the only thing that you can do is apply and see what happens. You have a FEE WAIVER. You are probably wasting your time being below the LSAT and GPA median, but maybe you are the rare exception who gets into a T14 (doubt it). Your time is best spent applying to all of the T20-T50.


I agree with you. I was just looking for opinions on the possibilities of these things happening.

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Re: Are these LSN real? Do these things really happen for URMs?

Postby BlaqBella » Tue Jan 15, 2013 12:54 pm

JayJones78 wrote:
sparty99 wrote:
JayJones78 wrote:
Wormfather wrote:Sorry, you're not overcoming that GPA with a 151. You'll have some success in the 30s but T25 is a bit of a long shot.


Don't get me wrong. I agree with you. But what I'm asking is do these things happen? (i.e duke with 153 and GPA below 25th?) do things like this happen with the t14s? I'm not saying ill overcome my LSAT to get into duke. Hell I may only get into schools 50 and below.


Dude, the only thing that you can do is apply and see what happens. You have a FEE WAIVER. You are probably wasting your time being below the LSAT and GPA median, but maybe you are the rare exception who gets into a T14 (doubt it). Your time is best spent applying to all of the T20-T50.


I agree with you. I was just looking for opinions on the possibilities of these things happening.


It happens. Just not as widely spoken on this forum/LSN which are not an entire reflection of how URMs, specifically AA male applicants fare in an admission cycle.

There are quite a few mid-150s/3.0-3.5 GPA AA males attending T14s. I say send your app out to Duke and see what happens. You never know. :)

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somewhatwayward
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Re: Are these LSN real? Do these things really happen for URMs?

Postby somewhatwayward » Tue Jan 15, 2013 2:06 pm

BlaqBella wrote:It happens. Just not as widely spoken on this forum/LSN which are not an entire reflection of how URMs, specifically AA male applicants fare in an admission cycle.

There are quite a few mid-150s/3.0-3.5 GPA AA males attending T14s. I say send your app out to Duke and see what happens. You never know. :)


Quite a few is probably an exaggeration. Occasionally an AA male with a mid-150s LSAT score (usually paired with a good GPA, like 3.7+) will break into the T6. I can remember two from my cycle (2009-2010). I've never seen one below 154, though. Most AA males with 150s who do get into a T14 probably get into 7-14 with Georgetown eating up a disproportionate amount bc of it has a huge class to fill and it occupies the lowest rung so the AA males with higher numbers are less likely to pick it (of course, $$$ or desire to be in D.C. could change that but generally it won't be a first choice for people with acceptances to higher-ranked schools).

Most of those AA males with 150s who attend 7-14, though, are probably at least in the mid-150s and often also have pretty good GPAs (3.5+). A quick peek at Georgetown's LSN reveals one 155/3.7 AA male who got in ED and one 159/3.69 AA male who also got in ED, amid a see of red dots representing URMs rejected with LSATs in the 150s. The other accepted URMs all had at least a 160. Cornell's LSN graph shows an AA female engineering major 155/3.0 WL/Accepted with the next lowest admits being a 158/3.4 AA male and a 159/4.0 AA female. Most of the other URMs, even in the high 150s, were rejected or WL. Again, 160 seems to be the magic wall where URMs are reliably admitted. Cornell has the easiest standards of any T14 although that is somewhat mitigated by the fact that the class is 1/3 the size of Georgetown's.

The point is that even in a down year like last year AA males who had high-150s LSATs were frequently rejected from the lower T14. I didn't want to look at every school in the lower T14, but I did click on some of the red dots to see if any of them had been accepted to higher-ranked schools and didn't see any. That does happen for URMs frequently. It is not as predictable as non-URM admissions. Even so, there aren't that many AA males at schools in the lower T14 to begin with. The poster Altone calculated that there are about 330 AAs in the T14, so suppose 200 are in the lower T14....probably more than half are women, but assuming 50/50, that's 100 AA males in the lower T14. My LSN search didn't find a single AA, male or female, with a score lower than 155 admitted to Cornell or Georgetown last year despite the decrease in applicants. Even though it is a small sample size, that leads me to believe that a very small percentage of those 100 AA males in the lower T14 have an LSAT under 155. Maybe 5-10%? If that is what you mean by 'quite a few,' then perhaps this is all semantics.

Anyway, OP, this is not meant to discourage you. The reason the low-150s people get in from time-to-time is because they put together really good applications....great essays, great recs....they've overcome a lot of adversity and present it in a compelling way. I know you have already applied to a lot of schools, but if you want a shot at the lower T14, you need to make sure your essays and recs are amazing. There is certainly no harm in applying if you got a fee waiver.

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Re: Are these LSN real? Do these things really happen for URMs?

Postby PRgradBYU » Tue Jan 22, 2013 11:51 pm

somewhatwayward wrote:
BlaqBella wrote:It happens. Just not as widely spoken on this forum/LSN which are not an entire reflection of how URMs, specifically AA male applicants fare in an admission cycle.

There are quite a few mid-150s/3.0-3.5 GPA AA males attending T14s. I say send your app out to Duke and see what happens. You never know. :)


Quite a few is probably an exaggeration. Occasionally an AA male with a mid-150s LSAT score (usually paired with a good GPA, like 3.7+) will break into the T6. I can remember two from my cycle (2009-2010). I've never seen one below 154, though. Most AA males with 150s who do get into a T14 probably get into 7-14 with Georgetown eating up a disproportionate amount bc of it has a huge class to fill and it occupies the lowest rung so the AA males with higher numbers are less likely to pick it (of course, $$$ or desire to be in D.C. could change that but generally it won't be a first choice for people with acceptances to higher-ranked schools).

Most of those AA males with 150s who attend 7-14, though, are probably at least in the mid-150s and often also have pretty good GPAs (3.5+). A quick peek at Georgetown's LSN reveals one 155/3.7 AA male who got in ED and one 159/3.69 AA male who also got in ED, amid a see of red dots representing URMs rejected with LSATs in the 150s. The other accepted URMs all had at least a 160. Cornell's LSN graph shows an AA female engineering major 155/3.0 WL/Accepted with the next lowest admits being a 158/3.4 AA male and a 159/4.0 AA female. Most of the other URMs, even in the high 150s, were rejected or WL. Again, 160 seems to be the magic wall where URMs are reliably admitted. Cornell has the easiest standards of any T14 although that is somewhat mitigated by the fact that the class is 1/3 the size of Georgetown's.

The point is that even in a down year like last year AA males who had high-150s LSATs were frequently rejected from the lower T14. I didn't want to look at every school in the lower T14, but I did click on some of the red dots to see if any of them had been accepted to higher-ranked schools and didn't see any. That does happen for URMs frequently. It is not as predictable as non-URM admissions. Even so, there aren't that many AA males at schools in the lower T14 to begin with. The poster Altone calculated that there are about 330 AAs in the T14, so suppose 200 are in the lower T14....probably more than half are women, but assuming 50/50, that's 100 AA males in the lower T14. My LSN search didn't find a single AA, male or female, with a score lower than 155 admitted to Cornell or Georgetown last year despite the decrease in applicants. Even though it is a small sample size, that leads me to believe that a very small percentage of those 100 AA males in the lower T14 have an LSAT under 155. Maybe 5-10%? If that is what you mean by 'quite a few,' then perhaps this is all semantics.

Anyway, OP, this is not meant to discourage you. The reason the low-150s people get in from time-to-time is because they put together really good applications....great essays, great recs....they've overcome a lot of adversity and present it in a compelling way. I know you have already applied to a lot of schools, but if you want a shot at the lower T14, you need to make sure your essays and recs are amazing. There is certainly no harm in applying if you got a fee waiver.


Very well stated. The last sentence is the key phrase; I only scored in the mid-160s but since I received fee waivers from practically every school I was interested in, I went ahead and applied. It's far better to pay the $21 LSAC fee than to wonder "What if?" for the rest of your life.

And better yet, retaking the LSAT and scoring better are better than both of those things.

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JayJones78
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Re: Are these LSN real? Do these things really happen for URMs?

Postby JayJones78 » Tue Jan 22, 2013 11:58 pm

PRgradBYU wrote:
somewhatwayward wrote:
BlaqBella wrote:It happens. Just not as widely spoken on this forum/LSN which are not an entire reflection of how URMs, specifically AA male applicants fare in an admission cycle.

There are quite a few mid-150s/3.0-3.5 GPA AA males attending T14s. I say send your app out to Duke and see what happens. You never know. :)


Quite a few is probably an exaggeration. Occasionally an AA male with a mid-150s LSAT score (usually paired with a good GPA, like 3.7+) will break into the T6. I can remember two from my cycle (2009-2010). I've never seen one below 154, though. Most AA males with 150s who do get into a T14 probably get into 7-14 with Georgetown eating up a disproportionate amount bc of it has a huge class to fill and it occupies the lowest rung so the AA males with higher numbers are less likely to pick it (of course, $$$ or desire to be in D.C. could change that but generally it won't be a first choice for people with acceptances to higher-ranked schools).

Most of those AA males with 150s who attend 7-14, though, are probably at least in the mid-150s and often also have pretty good GPAs (3.5+). A quick peek at Georgetown's LSN reveals one 155/3.7 AA male who got in ED and one 159/3.69 AA male who also got in ED, amid a see of red dots representing URMs rejected with LSATs in the 150s. The other accepted URMs all had at least a 160. Cornell's LSN graph shows an AA female engineering major 155/3.0 WL/Accepted with the next lowest admits being a 158/3.4 AA male and a 159/4.0 AA female. Most of the other URMs, even in the high 150s, were rejected or WL. Again, 160 seems to be the magic wall where URMs are reliably admitted. Cornell has the easiest standards of any T14 although that is somewhat mitigated by the fact that the class is 1/3 the size of Georgetown's.

The point is that even in a down year like last year AA males who had high-150s LSATs were frequently rejected from the lower T14. I didn't want to look at every school in the lower T14, but I did click on some of the red dots to see if any of them had been accepted to higher-ranked schools and didn't see any. That does happen for URMs frequently. It is not as predictable as non-URM admissions. Even so, there aren't that many AA males at schools in the lower T14 to begin with. The poster Altone calculated that there are about 330 AAs in the T14, so suppose 200 are in the lower T14....probably more than half are women, but assuming 50/50, that's 100 AA males in the lower T14. My LSN search didn't find a single AA, male or female, with a score lower than 155 admitted to Cornell or Georgetown last year despite the decrease in applicants. Even though it is a small sample size, that leads me to believe that a very small percentage of those 100 AA males in the lower T14 have an LSAT under 155. Maybe 5-10%? If that is what you mean by 'quite a few,' then perhaps this is all semantics.

Anyway, OP, this is not meant to discourage you. The reason the low-150s people get in from time-to-time is because they put together really good applications....great essays, great recs....they've overcome a lot of adversity and present it in a compelling way. I know you have already applied to a lot of schools, but if you want a shot at the lower T14, you need to make sure your essays and recs are amazing. There is certainly no harm in applying if you got a fee waiver.


Very well stated. The last sentence is the key phrase; I only scored in the mid-160s but since I received fee waivers from practically every school I was interested in, I went ahead and applied. It's far better to pay the $21 LSAC fee than to wonder "What if?" for the rest of your life.

And better yet, retaking the LSAT and scoring better are better than both of those things.


Yes. As you can see from my LSN I took the advice to heart. Now all that is left to do is pray and wait :)

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dproduct
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Re: Are these LSN real? Do these things really happen for URMs?

Postby dproduct » Wed Jan 23, 2013 11:23 pm

sparty99 wrote:
JayJones78 wrote:
Wormfather wrote:Sorry, you're not overcoming that GPA with a 151. You'll have some success in the 30s but T25 is a bit of a long shot.


Don't get me wrong. I agree with you. But what I'm asking is do these things happen? (i.e duke with 153 and GPA below 25th?) do things like this happen with the t14s? I'm not saying ill overcome my LSAT to get into duke. Hell I may only get into schools 50 and below.


Dude,the only thing that you can do is apply and see what happens. You have a FEE WAIVER. You are probably wasting your time being below the LSAT and GPA median25th percentile, but maybe you are the rare exception who gets into a T14 (doubt it). Your time is best spent applying to all of the T20-T50.


FTFY

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somewhatwayward
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Re: Are these LSN real? Do these things really happen for URMs?

Postby somewhatwayward » Thu Jan 24, 2013 10:13 am

PRgradBYU wrote:Very well stated. The last sentence is the key phrase; I only scored in the mid-160s but since I received fee waivers from practically every school I was interested in, I went ahead and applied. It's far better to pay the $21 LSAC fee than to wonder "What if?" for the rest of your life.

And better yet, retaking the LSAT and scoring better are better than both of those things.


If you are AA and have mid-160s, you will be in at the T14.




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