Blacks and Law School: By The Numbers

(BLS, URM status, non-traditional, GLBT)
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Dr. Dre
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Re: Blacks and Law School: By The Numbers

Postby Dr. Dre » Fri Mar 15, 2013 1:58 am

bump

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Nova
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Re: Blacks and Law School: By The Numbers

Postby Nova » Fri Mar 15, 2013 4:16 am

Dr. Dre wrote:bump

Deserved.

This needs to always be on the 1st page.

This actually needs to be stickied.

GToAT

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Nova
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Re: Blacks and Law School: By The Numbers

Postby Nova » Fri Mar 15, 2013 5:25 am

delusional wrote: I'm curious what the rationale would be for a school to care about LSAT below the 25th percentile.

The LSAT is the number 1 predictor of 1L success. Adcomms want their URMs to be as competitive as possible.

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Nova
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Re: Blacks and Law School: By The Numbers

Postby Nova » Fri Mar 15, 2013 5:26 am

aboutmydaylight wrote:If anyone's curious, for MA's the numbers are as follows:

Mean: 147.79
SD: 8.82
Number = 1853

Mean + 1SD = 156.61 (294-295)
Mean + 1.5SD = 161.02 (124-125)
Mean + 2SD = 165.43 (42-43)
Mean + 2.5SD = 169.84 (11-12)
Mean + 3SD = 174.25 (1-2)

Numbers are smaller because there's less MA's than AA's that apply. All approximations of course. I don't have the data on how many MA enroll/are accepted to the T-14 but iirc about 30 MA's enroll in HYS annually. Assuming everything's correct, that would correspond to an LSAT of 166-167 to be among the top 30 MA's that took the test. I have a (perhaps unfounded) presumption that MA's don't get even close to the pass that AA's get when it comes to GPA though. You'd probably still have to near 3.7 to be competitive with the lower end of those scores.

As a MA, TYFT

EXCELLENT FIRST POST

delusional
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Re: Blacks and Law School: By The Numbers

Postby delusional » Fri Mar 15, 2013 8:49 am

Nova wrote:
delusional wrote: I'm curious what the rationale would be for a school to care about LSAT below the 25th percentile.

The LSAT is the number 1 predictor of 1L success. Adcomms want their URMs to be as competitive as possible.

Okay, but assuming that adcomms care more about other things also, like announcing that a class has a Rhodes Scholar or a former D1 football player or students who speak 11 languages, it is not the huge deal that LSAT is when it's above the 25th and hence reported to US News.

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JXander
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Re: Blacks and Law School: By The Numbers

Postby JXander » Fri Mar 15, 2013 9:34 am

Wow. Very informative thread.

Definitely considering re-taking that test this June. I worked so hard for my 3.9...

InRemington
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Re: Blacks and Law School: By The Numbers

Postby InRemington » Fri Mar 15, 2013 11:05 am

Not URM but still found the thread interesting, and enlightening.......thanks also to the poster of the brief from LSAC on Fisher v UT. Argument III A is interesting but what about the well documented inherent bias in standardized testing, especially LSAT.

repost of the link -
http://www.americanbar.org/content/dam/ ... eckdam.pdf

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J-e-L-L-o
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Re: Blacks and Law School: By The Numbers

Postby J-e-L-L-o » Sun Mar 17, 2013 7:32 pm

I wouldn't call it bias. There are socioeconomics factors and cultural differences that lead to an education gap. No one knows why AA and some minorities score less on the LSAT and standardized tests. But there is a correlation to race and test scores.

Is the NFL biased against other races because the largest percentages of quarterbacks are white?

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unc0mm0n1
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Re: Blacks and Law School: By The Numbers

Postby unc0mm0n1 » Sun Mar 17, 2013 7:49 pm

Wormfather wrote:
BlaqBella wrote:
nick1 wrote:http://www.americanbar.org/content/dam/aba/publications/supreme_court_preview/briefs/11-345_respondentamculsac.authcheckdam.pdf

If you check out the amicus brief that LSAC filed with the Supreme Court for the Fisher case, from the 09-10 cycle, only 63 blacks had a 3.5 and 165 or better. Pretty interesting.


Oh wow. Even more reason for me to study my butt off for the LSATs.


So in other words if I earned a 165 last Saturday to go with my 3.91, HYS should almost definitely be in play?


I know AA females at H with lower LSATs and GPA's than the ones you listed. As an AA male you'd be in a good position.

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unc0mm0n1
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Re: Blacks and Law School: By The Numbers

Postby unc0mm0n1 » Sun Mar 17, 2013 7:56 pm

Wormfather wrote:
unc0mm0n1 wrote:
Wormfather wrote:[quote="BlaqBella
Oh wow. Even more reason for me to study my butt off for the LSATs.


So in other words if I earned a 165 last Saturday to go with my 3.91, HYS should almost definitely be in play?


I know AA females at H with lower LSATs and GPA's than the ones you listed. As an AA male you'd be in a good position.


Wow, that post seems like forever ago, I ended up with a 170. I'm sitting pretty ATM 8)[/quote]

Well we had almost the exact same everything. my GPA was a little bit higher with the same LSAT. I was accepted in to HY (didn't apply to S).

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TatNurner
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Re: Blacks and Law School: By The Numbers

Postby TatNurner » Tue Mar 19, 2013 10:02 pm

Good read!
Last edited by TatNurner on Fri Aug 02, 2013 5:14 am, edited 1 time in total.

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90convoy
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Re: Blacks and Law School: By The Numbers

Postby 90convoy » Tue Mar 19, 2013 10:12 pm

Im an AA male that is most likely going to graduate with a 3.6. What LSAT score do you think I would need for H? I have a year to study.

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John_rizzy_rawls
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Re: Blacks and Law School: By The Numbers

Postby John_rizzy_rawls » Tue Mar 19, 2013 10:14 pm

90convoy wrote:Im an AA male that is most likely going to graduate with a 3.6. What LSAT score do you think I would need for H? I have a year to study.


Very similar GPA here. Based on this cycle, which is really the only one that should be analyzed at this point, a 167+ makes you competitive for H, a 172+ makes you auto-admit.

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howlery
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Re: Blacks and Law School: By The Numbers

Postby howlery » Tue Mar 19, 2013 10:25 pm

John_rizzy_rawls wrote:
90convoy wrote:Im an AA male that is most likely going to graduate with a 3.6. What LSAT score do you think I would need for H? I have a year to study.


Very similar GPA here. Based on this cycle, which is really the only one that should be analyzed at this point, a 167+ makes you competitive for H, a 172+ makes you auto-admit.


Does a 3.7 change the calculus at all? Earlier in the thread someone posted that past a certain point (around 3.5-3.6 I think, too lazy to go look) the LSAT matters way more. Is this still the case? Or would schools be even more accepting of a 3.7 vs 3.6, .5, etc.?

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John_rizzy_rawls
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Re: Blacks and Law School: By The Numbers

Postby John_rizzy_rawls » Tue Mar 19, 2013 10:30 pm

howlery wrote:
John_rizzy_rawls wrote:
90convoy wrote:Im an AA male that is most likely going to graduate with a 3.6. What LSAT score do you think I would need for H? I have a year to study.


Very similar GPA here. Based on this cycle, which is really the only one that should be analyzed at this point, a 167+ makes you competitive for H, a 172+ makes you auto-admit.


Does a 3.7 change the calculus at all? Earlier in the thread someone posted that past a certain point (around 3.5-3.6 I think, too lazy to go look) the LSAT matters way more. Is this still the case? Or would schools be even more accepting of a 3.7 vs 3.6, .5, etc.?


Honestly not really. Once you're an AA, anything above 3.5 and 165 makes you competitive everywhere except Yale. Every GPA and LSAT point counts, and 3.6 seems to actually be a nice threshold to meet but again, less than ~60 AAs per cycle have that combo so yeah.

As proof: quite a few all the 3.6x/168+ on TLS have gotten JS1s at Harvard.

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PDaddy
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Re: Blacks and Law School: By The Numbers

Postby PDaddy » Tue Mar 19, 2013 10:50 pm

Very informative and useful thread. Good uses of logic by most posters here. I have to say, however, that most people already knew that, for any AA with a 3.5+ GPA, a 160 put the ball into play at most if not all of the T14. Heck, even for those AA's with 3.25 or above, a 160-163 tends to be an automatic game-changer at all but the T6, and even that can change with good softs and essays.

We already knew all of this, but it is very nice to see some data and information synthesized into an explanation of "why" this happens.

The best news here is not even about the T14. AA's can graduate from top-20 or top-25 schools and still do extremely well in the job market if they are above median. Despite the bleak job market, firms are still going to bring in a small percentage of URM's every year, and there are fewer URM's choosing law school. That means firms must still dig deeper into the rankings and deeper into the classes to find qualified URM's.

A 3.25/160 AA is sitting pretty if he isn't a prestige whore and is willing to attend a lower-ranked school guaranteeing $$$$ so he can graduate virtually debt free. The question is, do URM's recognize the threshold at which they should eschew the T14 and take money from lower ranked schools?

That threshold isn't the same for each student; it depends on the individual's admissions offers, scholarships, work experience, ties, career goals.
Last edited by PDaddy on Sun Jun 22, 2014 4:04 pm, edited 4 times in total.

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90convoy
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Re: Blacks and Law School: By The Numbers

Postby 90convoy » Tue Mar 19, 2013 11:13 pm

Very similar GPA here. Based on this cycle, which is really the only one that should be analyzed at this point, a 167+ makes you competitive for H, a 172+ makes you auto-admit.


Appreciate it, thanks. Would softs be a factor for me here considering I am in a sport and I barely have time at all for extra-curricular activities

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howlery
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Re: Blacks and Law School: By The Numbers

Postby howlery » Tue Mar 19, 2013 11:17 pm

90convoy wrote:
Very similar GPA here. Based on this cycle, which is really the only one that should be analyzed at this point, a 167+ makes you competitive for H, a 172+ makes you auto-admit.


Appreciate it, thanks. Would softs be a factor for me here considering I am in a sport and I barely have time at all for extra-curricular activities


I would think that your involvement in a sport counts as a soft. Still, they probably wouldn't care about anything past your #s/URM status.

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Nova
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Re: Blacks and Law School: By The Numbers

Postby Nova » Thu May 02, 2013 8:43 pm

BUMP to page 1

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tehkris
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Re: Blacks and Law School: By The Numbers

Postby tehkris » Thu May 02, 2013 9:02 pm

Sitting on the can dropping a deuce and reading this on my nook. So inspired to study I jumped up to study and realized I forgo to wipe. :? But thanks for this, OP .

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howlery
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Re: Blacks and Law School: By The Numbers

Postby howlery » Thu May 02, 2013 11:00 pm

tehkris wrote:Sitting on the can dropping a deuce and reading this on my nook. So inspired to study I jumped up to study and realized I forgo to wipe. :? But thanks for this, OP .

hcss11
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Re: Blacks and Law School: By The Numbers

Postby hcss11 » Sat May 25, 2013 4:26 pm

Bump to page 1.

Excellent and inspiring post.

Just to get an idea of where I stand, I'm a 3.37 national political organizer with Congressional and state governmental internships, and experience leading self-founded organizations from a top public university looking to apply to HYSCCN. What LSAT should I realistically aim for to maximize my chances of admission at these law schools? Looking forward to hearing back from someone.

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txdude45
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Re: Blacks and Law School: By The Numbers

Postby txdude45 » Sat May 25, 2013 4:41 pm

hcss11 wrote:Bump to page 1.

Excellent and inspiring post.

Just to get an idea of where I stand, I'm a 3.37 national political organizer with Congressional and state governmental internships, and experience leading self-founded organizations from a top public university looking to apply to HYSCCN. What LSAT should I realistically aim for to maximize my chances of admission at these law schools? Looking forward to hearing back from someone.


What should you aim for? 170+. That number will put you deep into the 99th percentile for AA LSAT takers and make you auto admit most places.

Realistically, Rizzy probably has the right info. 167 is gonna be the number to hit. I was 3.17/167 when I initially applied and got CCN and WL->JS1.

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twenty
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Re: Blacks and Law School: By The Numbers

Postby twenty » Sat May 25, 2013 4:45 pm

hcss11 wrote:Just to get an idea of where I stand, I'm a 3.37 national political organizer with Congressional and state governmental internships, and experience leading self-founded organizations from a top public university looking to apply to HYSCCN. What LSAT should I realistically aim for to maximize my chances of admission at these law schools? Looking forward to hearing back from someone.


180. Not joking.

While you'll probably get in to some great schools with a 165 or so, why set the bar there? Figure that someone is paying you upwards of 90k-150k to increase your LSAT score (which is a 3-5 month endeavor) a few extra points, which means instead of going to UVA with a 40k scholarship, you'll go to NYU on a full ride.

Don't get a -4 on Logic Games during your practice tests and call it a day, beat the hell out of it and go -0 consistently. Don't resign yourself to mishandling those damn sufficient assumptions in LR, figure them out, work through them.

Getting a "URM boost" should only motivate you to do better, not get complacent. True, you probably won't get a 180 on your actual LSAT, but doesn't it make sense to work as hard as you can regardless?

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J-e-L-L-o
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Re: Blacks and Law School: By The Numbers

Postby J-e-L-L-o » Sat May 25, 2013 5:48 pm

PDaddy wrote:
A 3.25/160 AA is sitting pretty if he isn't a prestige whore and is willing to attend a lower-ranked school guaranteeing $$$$ so he can graduate virtually debt free. The question is, do URM's recognize the threshold at which they should eschew the T14 and take money from lower ranked schools?

That threshold isn't the same for each student; it depends on the individual's offers, scholarships, ties and career goals.


This is the magic calculus. Each person will be different




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