Blacks and Law School: By The Numbers

(BLS, URM status, non-traditional, GLBT)
Athlone McGinnis
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Re: Blacks and Law School: By The Numbers

Postby Athlone McGinnis » Mon Oct 29, 2012 12:35 pm

GAIAtheCHEERLEADER wrote:Thank you for this wonderful addition to the forum, OP. :)

Good work <3


shoe_gasm wrote:Thanks for this. I really appreciate it


Thank you both for your feedback. I'm glad to have been helpful.

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Nova
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Re: Blacks and Law School: By The Numbers

Postby Nova » Tue Nov 13, 2012 11:06 am

Thank you for the write up.

*bump*

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TrialLawyer16
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Re: Blacks and Law School: By The Numbers

Postby TrialLawyer16 » Tue Nov 13, 2012 12:19 pm

Impressive post, OP

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howlery
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Re: Blacks and Law School: By The Numbers

Postby howlery » Tue Nov 13, 2012 4:46 pm

Athlone McGinnis wrote:
Wormfather wrote:
BlaqBella wrote:
nick1 wrote:http://www.americanbar.org/content/dam/aba/publications/supreme_court_preview/briefs/11-345_respondentamculsac.authcheckdam.pdf

If you check out the amicus brief that LSAC filed with the Supreme Court for the Fisher case, from the 09-10 cycle, only 63 blacks had a 3.5 and 165 or better. Pretty interesting.


Oh wow. Even more reason for me to study my butt off for the LSATs.


So in other words if I earned a 165 last Saturday to go with my 3.91, HYS should almost definitely be in play?


Your GPA could be a 3.5 and you'd probably still be in contention with that 165. With a 3.91, I'd say at least one of those three ought to happen.


Would it be possible to discuss GPA a bit more? Is there much difference between a 3.0-3.5-3.6 etc for an AA male provided that they have a 168+? Whereas non-URM candidates would be shut out of certain schools with certain GPAs, I do not know if this is the case with AA applicants. Is 3.5 definitely safe for H (probably not Y, S I guess) and CCN on down provided that one has the requisite test score or is it something that is unpredictable?

Thank you very, very much for this thread.

Athlone McGinnis
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Re: Blacks and Law School: By The Numbers

Postby Athlone McGinnis » Mon Nov 19, 2012 3:08 am

howlery wrote:
Would it be possible to discuss GPA a bit more? Is there much difference between a 3.0-3.5-3.6 etc for an AA male provided that they have a 168+? Whereas non-URM candidates would be shut out of certain schools with certain GPAs, I do not know if this is the case with AA applicants. Is 3.5 definitely safe for H (probably not Y, S I guess) and CCN on down provided that one has the requisite test score or is it something that is unpredictable?

Thank you very, very much for this thread.


I don't have as much hard data on GPAs as I do LSAT scores, so my answer here won't be as precise as some of the others given earlier.

My impression, however, is this: we do know that the average GPA for AA applicants is south of 3.0, and the number of AA's with 164+ is very low (double this for AA males, who are outnumbered by AA females with respect to pretty much anything relating to higher education these days). This leads me to believe that there will be a large difference between a non-URM applicant with a 3.0-168 and an AA applicant with the same stats, the latter having more options and fewer shutouts due to raw supply and demand.

There just aren't enough AA's with solid LSATs to go around, much less AA's with solid LSATs AND good GPAs. The state of black education in this country isn't pretty (though that's a topic for another post). This is important to remember, because it means that the schools you're looking to, despite their general desire for diversity, don't have a whole lot to choose from.

Nothing is entirely predictable, but my educated guess (emphasis on the word guess there) is that a 3.5+ GPA combined with a 163+ would warrant an application to all the schools you mentioned. Raw supply and demand should give a 3.5/163 an outside chance at H (not a great one, but good enough to warrant the hail mary) and most of the schools below that should be firmly in play. I base this on the notion that with a 163 as an AA, you've got only about 120-140 equals in each cycle competing for around 330 T14 spots, and many of those folks will not have a 3.5 GPA (AA average is under 3.0, remember).

You certainly aren't definitely safe at H with a 3.5/163, but I'd call that a good minimum to warrant a shot. Assuming a 3.5 GPA, I'd put the standard for "likely" at H at 167+. Anything in between those two scores (164-166) gives you a reasonable shot as well. If you have a 3.5/168, I would bet a few dollars on your getting into H (I'd call it "likely" judging from the numbers). At that level, you've got maybe just over a dozen equals in the country (HYS take around 80 AA's a year between them) and, again, many of them don't have a 3.5.

Disclaimer: All of this is just an educated guess.

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BlaqBella
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Re: Blacks and Law School: By The Numbers

Postby BlaqBella » Tue Nov 20, 2012 10:44 am

Athlone McGinnis wrote:At that level, you've got maybe just over a dozen equals in the country (HYS take around 80 AA's a year between them) and, again, many of them don't have a 3.5.


It's been my observation that generally speaking, AA applicants with 3.0-3.5 GPAs that have been admitted to HYS come from an Ivy (HYPS, Dartmouth, Cornell, Penn, Brown, etc.) top public/private university, top liberal arts (Williams, Colby, Middlebury, etc.) or top HBCU (Spelman, Morehouse, Florida A&M, Hampton, Howard, etc.). I have seen very few exceptions to this and am basing my observation on LSN and this forum.


Can it safely be concluded that HYS seldom make exceptions for AA applicants with sub-3.5 GPAs from an undergrad that's none of the above?

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BlaqBella
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Re: Blacks and Law School: By The Numbers

Postby BlaqBella » Tue Nov 20, 2012 10:58 am

Wormfather wrote:
BlaqBella wrote:
Athlone McGinnis wrote:At that level, you've got maybe just over a dozen equals in the country (HYS take around 80 AA's a year between them) and, again, many of them don't have a 3.5.


It's been my observation that generally speaking, AA applicants with 3.0-3.5 GPAs that have been admitted to HYS come from an Ivy (HYPS, Dartmouth, Cornell, Penn, Brown, etc.) top public/private university, top liberal arts (Williams, Colby, Middlebury, etc.) or top HBCU (Spelman, Morehouse, Florida A&M, Hampton, Howard, etc.). I have seen very few exceptions to this and am basing my observation on LSN and this forum.


Can it safely be concluded that HYS seldom make exceptions for AA applicants with sub-3.5 GPAs from an undergrad that's none of the above?


LSN has such a small sample size that by virtue of you casting such a wide net (the number of schools) you're bound to end up with unrepresentative samples. I mean, LSN is already a crap predictor for URMs and now you're drilling down to a subset of a subset (HYS URMs).

I could see an argument that maybe AAs from those specific schools are more likely to use LSN, apply to HYS, or even to avail themselves of the resource you're using right now.

MP: Dont look to deeply into those "exceptions".


Thanks for the insight, Wormfather! I've never looked at it that way. Your response actually sounds like a correct answer to a weaken question on the LSAT, :lol: :lol:.

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howlery
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Re: Blacks and Law School: By The Numbers

Postby howlery » Wed Nov 21, 2012 11:11 pm

Sincerely appreciate the response. Thanks again to everyone for their contributions to the URM forum!

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wbrother
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Re: Blacks and Law School: By The Numbers

Postby wbrother » Thu Nov 22, 2012 2:27 pm

164 LSAT and a 3.21 GPA with strong softs. I'm honestly just hoping to get into UC Hastings, but I applied to some reach schools as well.

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wbrother
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Re: Blacks and Law School: By The Numbers

Postby wbrother » Thu Nov 22, 2012 5:47 pm

Wormfather wrote:
wbrother wrote:164 LSAT and a 3.21 GPA with strong softs. I'm honestly just hoping to get into UC Hastings, but I applied to some reach schools as well.


Um, aim higher...

http://search.lawschoolnumbers.com/users/jd/?a=su&lsat2=166&lsatR=true&lsat1=162&lgpa1=3.10&lgpa2=3.30&urm=Only&workingCycle=1112


I definitely applied to some higher ranking schools (Harvard, Columbia, Duke, Georgetown, GW, and the UC Schools), I just don't want to be overly optimistic about getting a AA bump. Info on TLS has made me less nervous though!

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astrodoggy
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Re: Blacks and Law School: By The Numbers

Postby astrodoggy » Fri Nov 23, 2012 4:52 pm

Thanks everyone for all your insights. I could not agree more about LSN and its small sample size. When you look on there and see maybe twenty applicants to Harvard who were accepted with numbers below the 25th percentiles, when in reality that number is well over 100, you know that it isn't a particularly accurate picture of the pool.

That's why I am applying even though I don't have auto-admit numbers, like many have said before, I think soft factors tend to matter much more for AA applicants whose numbers are relatively above average.

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BlaqBella
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Re: Blacks and Law School: By The Numbers

Postby BlaqBella » Fri Nov 23, 2012 4:58 pm

astrodoggy wrote:Thanks everyone for all your insights. I could not agree more about LSN and its small sample size. When you look on there and see maybe twenty applicants to Harvard who were accepted with numbers below the 25th percentiles, when in reality that number is well over 100, you know that it isn't a particularly accurate picture of the pool.

That's why I am applying even though I don't have auto-admit numbers, like many have said before, I think soft factors tend to matter much more for AA applicants whose numbers are relatively above average.


Softs...what are the type of softs that matter??

I hear TFA, Peace Corps...what else, you think?

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astrodoggy
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Re: Blacks and Law School: By The Numbers

Postby astrodoggy » Fri Nov 23, 2012 5:38 pm

BlaqBella wrote:
astrodoggy wrote:Thanks everyone for all your insights. I could not agree more about LSN and its small sample size. When you look on there and see maybe twenty applicants to Harvard who were accepted with numbers below the 25th percentiles, when in reality that number is well over 100, you know that it isn't a particularly accurate picture of the pool.

That's why I am applying even though I don't have auto-admit numbers, like many have said before, I think soft factors tend to matter much more for AA applicants whose numbers are relatively above average.


Softs...what are the type of softs that matter??

I hear TFA, Peace Corps...what else, you think?

Certainly those. Using anecdotal evidence, I know three AA females who graduated from H and Y recently. In undergrad, all three had been leaders of campus organizations, done interesting internships, tons of community service, and came from top HBCUS - think Howard, Hampton, Spelman types. What might be "mundane" for a non-URM, e.g. study abroad, research, president of a organization, can be seen as more meaningful for an AA.

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John_rizzy_rawls
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Re: Blacks and Law School: By The Numbers

Postby John_rizzy_rawls » Fri Nov 23, 2012 7:35 pm

This thread has my vote for one of, if not the most, useful for URMs on this site.

Huge shout out to OP and insightful contributors from a long time lurker/next year applicant who was, until now, completely clueless about the URM process and data.

That is all.

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John_rizzy_rawls
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Re: Blacks and Law School: By The Numbers

Postby John_rizzy_rawls » Fri Nov 23, 2012 7:40 pm

And a follow up question for OP: is there a bump distinction between half AA and full? I was raised by my single AA mom, grew up in the communities of my AA side, started and run a job training nonprofit for inner city at-risk and homeless youth (mostly, sadly, minorities) and my DS would have been all about this, regardless of a URM bump, barely know my dad, etc.

Nova graciously answered this already based on her experience, but I was wondering if you have any data or further analysis on it.

blackandstrong
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Re: Blacks and Law School: By The Numbers

Postby blackandstrong » Fri Nov 23, 2012 7:42 pm

I'm sending you a pm john rawls.

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John_rizzy_rawls
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Re: Blacks and Law School: By The Numbers

Postby John_rizzy_rawls » Fri Nov 23, 2012 7:49 pm

Wormfather wrote:
John_rizzy_rawls wrote:And a follow up question for OP: is there a bump distinction between half AA and full? I was raised by my single AA mom, grew up in the communities of my AA side, started and run a job training nonprofit for inner city at-risk and homeless youth (mostly, sadly, minorities) and my DS would have been all about this, regardless of a URM bump, barely know my dad, etc.

Nova graciously answered this already based on her experience, but I was wondering if you have any data or further analysis on it.


Even if there is any info on this, we're once again in subgroup of a subgroup type data. In other words it would be completely unreliable.


Makes sense. Didnt know how close we were to getting sabermetric level measures of data re: ls admissions - ie various sub-sub-groups. Figured I'd ask lol

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BlaqBella
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Re: Blacks and Law School: By The Numbers

Postby BlaqBella » Fri Nov 23, 2012 8:03 pm

John_rizzy_rawls wrote:And a follow up question for OP: is there a bump distinction between half AA and full?


You remember that "one drop rule" that was used to segregate and disfranchise AA ?

Uhm yeah..it applies in this instance. No distinction whatsoever between half and full, assuming, of course, you identify with your African heritage. I've rubbed shoulders with quite a few half AA who swear off their black heritage altogether. :| :arrow:

blackandstrong
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Re: Blacks and Law School: By The Numbers

Postby blackandstrong » Fri Nov 23, 2012 8:04 pm

BlaqBella wrote:
John_rizzy_rawls wrote:And a follow up question for OP: is there a bump distinction between half AA and full?


You remember that "one drop rule" that was used to segregate and disfranchise AA ?

Uhm yeah..it applies in this instance. No distinction whatsoever between half and full, assuming, of course, you identify with your African heritage. I've rubbed shoulders with quite a few half AA who swear off their black heritage altogether. :| :arrow:


This.

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BlaqBella
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Re: Blacks and Law School: By The Numbers

Postby BlaqBella » Fri Nov 23, 2012 8:05 pm

astrodoggy wrote:
BlaqBella wrote:
astrodoggy wrote:Thanks everyone for all your insights. I could not agree more about LSN and its small sample size. When you look on there and see maybe twenty applicants to Harvard who were accepted with numbers below the 25th percentiles, when in reality that number is well over 100, you know that it isn't a particularly accurate picture of the pool.

That's why I am applying even though I don't have auto-admit numbers, like many have said before, I think soft factors tend to matter much more for AA applicants whose numbers are relatively above average.


Softs...what are the type of softs that matter??

I hear TFA, Peace Corps...what else, you think?

Certainly those. Using anecdotal evidence, I know three AA females who graduated from H and Y recently. In undergrad, all three had been leaders of campus organizations, done interesting internships, tons of community service, and came from top HBCUS - think Howard, Hampton, Spelman types. What might be "mundane" for a non-URM, e.g. study abroad, research, president of a organization, can be seen as more meaningful for an AA.


Cool beans. Thanks!

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John_rizzy_rawls
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Re: Blacks and Law School: By The Numbers

Postby John_rizzy_rawls » Fri Nov 23, 2012 8:09 pm

BlaqBella wrote:
John_rizzy_rawls wrote:And a follow up question for OP: is there a bump distinction between half AA and full?


You remember that "one drop rule" that was used to segregate and disfranchise AA ?

Uhm yeah..it applies in this instance. No distinction whatsoever between half and full, assuming, of course, you identify with your African heritage. I've rubbed shoulders with quite a few half AA who swear off their black heritage altogether. :| :arrow:


Two things:

1) +1000

2) Yeah... no. Not me in the slightest. See the rest of my post for my heritage identity. lol

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Ken
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Re: Blacks and Law School: By The Numbers

Postby Ken » Fri Nov 23, 2012 8:36 pm

Great post by the OP! I love threads like this where a poster really shares their insight with the TLS community. Thanks! Cheers, Ken

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TrialLawyer16
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Re: Blacks and Law School: By The Numbers

Postby TrialLawyer16 » Fri Nov 23, 2012 9:45 pm

Ken wrote:Great post by the OP! I love threads like this where a poster really shares their insight with the TLS community. Thanks! Cheers, Ken

Not to derail the thread, but I just read this:

PALO ALTO, Calif., June 22, 2012 /PRNewswire/ -- The Wall Street Journal and REAL Trends, Inc. today announced that Ken DeLeon of DeLeon Realty is the nation's #1 real estate agent out of over a million agents with approximately $275 million in sales volume in 2011.

Source: http://www.bizjournals.com/prnewswire/p ... 22/SF29023



Congrats, man. That is absolutely ridiculous.

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bizzybone1313
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Re: Blacks and Law School: By The Numbers

Postby bizzybone1313 » Fri Nov 23, 2012 9:54 pm

TrialLawyer16 wrote:
Ken wrote:Great post by the OP! I love threads like this where a poster really shares their insight with the TLS community. Thanks! Cheers, Ken

Not to derail the thread, but I just read this:

PALO ALTO, Calif., June 22, 2012 /PRNewswire/ -- The Wall Street Journal and REAL Trends, Inc. today announced that Ken DeLeon of DeLeon Realty is the nation's #1 real estate agent out of over a million agents with approximately $275 million in sales volume in 2011.

Source: http://www.bizjournals.com/prnewswire/p ... 22/SF29023

Congrats, man. That is absolutely ridiculous.


You see, it's true: You can do anything with a law degree (assuming it is from the T-14).

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BlaqBella
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Re: Blacks and Law School: By The Numbers

Postby BlaqBella » Fri Nov 23, 2012 10:52 pm

bizzybone1313 wrote:
TrialLawyer16 wrote:
Ken wrote:Great post by the OP! I love threads like this where a poster really shares their insight with the TLS community. Thanks! Cheers, Ken

Not to derail the thread, but I just read this:

PALO ALTO, Calif., June 22, 2012 /PRNewswire/ -- The Wall Street Journal and REAL Trends, Inc. today announced that Ken DeLeon of DeLeon Realty is the nation's #1 real estate agent out of over a million agents with approximately $275 million in sales volume in 2011.

Source: http://www.bizjournals.com/prnewswire/p ... 22/SF29023

Congrats, man. That is absolutely ridiculous.


You see, it's true: You can do anything with a law degree (assuming it is from the T-14).


Actually, you can become a real estate broker just by being a barred attorney. I know for New York a licensed attorney can be a real estate broker without having to take a broker's exam. Quite a few attorneys took this route after layoffs in BIGLAW following the 2008/2009 stock market crash. Oh, and no T-14 required. Just NY bar passage.

I think the same also applies for some other states, California included, but you may have to sit the exam there (exempt from taking classes).

But, yes, it goes to show the law degree is quite versatile...so long as you pass the bar exam (you'd want to get licensed in at least of the following states to ensure such versatility: NY, CA, TX, IL).




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