Blacks and Law School: By The Numbers

(BLS, URM status, non-traditional, GLBT)
hcss11
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Re: Blacks and Law School: By The Numbers

Postby hcss11 » Sun May 26, 2013 12:22 am

Hmm so what I'm basically getting here is to

a. Work as hard as hell to score really high on the LSAT as a given;
b. Accept that Top 5 is in my position a crapshoot and be willing to settle for less.

Is that about right?

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txdude45
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Re: Blacks and Law School: By The Numbers

Postby txdude45 » Sun May 26, 2013 12:32 am

hcss11 wrote:Hmm so what I'm basically getting here is to

a. Work as hard as hell to score really high on the LSAT as a given;
b. Accept that Top 5 is in my position a crapshoot and be willing to settle for less.

Is that about right?


T6 is NOT a crapshoot in your position. Your position at the moment is 3.37/???. If you can score a 165, which is completely doable if you study even for a month, 1+ T6 is likely and so is a good deal of the T14 (barring YP). Don't "settle for less" unless you decide that $$$ (I got $120k at GW this cycle and $90 at GULC) is worth more than going T6. Applications are down, so URM LSATs are becoming more rare. At 3.17/167 I got $30k at Chicago, not a lot of money, but a T6 school offered me money.

Work your butt off to score as high as you can and it'll work itself out. Aim for 170+ and if you fall to 165 you're still sitting in a good spot.

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John_rizzy_rawls
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Re: Blacks and Law School: By The Numbers

Postby John_rizzy_rawls » Sun May 26, 2013 12:36 am

hcss11 wrote:Hmm so what I'm basically getting here is to

a. Work as hard as hell to score really high on the LSAT as a given;
b. Accept that Top 5 is in my position a crapshoot and be willing to settle for less.

Is that about right?


No, it's not.

170+ gives you a good chance at H, in everywhere on down with money.

167+ makes CCN likely and H a longshot, with a bunch of other T20s with money basically locked.

164 and below and you're probably not gonna have a very good cycle.

All depends on the work you're willing to put in.

hcss11
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Re: Blacks and Law School: By The Numbers

Postby hcss11 » Sun May 26, 2013 11:16 am

txdude45 wrote:
hcss11 wrote:Hmm so what I'm basically getting here is to

a. Work as hard as hell to score really high on the LSAT as a given;
b. Accept that Top 5 is in my position a crapshoot and be willing to settle for less.

Is that about right?


T6 is NOT a crapshoot in your position. Your position at the moment is 3.37/???. If you can score a 165, which is completely doable if you study even for a month, 1+ T6 is likely and so is a good deal of the T14 (barring YP). Don't "settle for less" unless you decide that $$$ (I got $120k at GW this cycle and $90 at GULC) is worth more than going T6. Applications are down, so URM LSATs are becoming more rare. At 3.17/167 I got $30k at Chicago, not a lot of money, but a T6 school offered me money.

Work your butt off to score as high as you can and it'll work itself out. Aim for 170+ and if you fall to 165 you're still sitting in a good spot.


a. What does Yield Protect mean?

b. My GPA is 3.37/4.0.

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dawyzest1
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Re: Blacks and Law School: By The Numbers

Postby dawyzest1 » Sun May 26, 2013 11:34 am

hcss11 wrote:
a. What does Yield Protect mean?

b. My GPA is 3.37/4.0.


Yield protection is something law schools will engage in when they receive an applicant who is otherwise qualified for admission that they wait-list because they believe there is a good chance the applicant will get into more desirable schools and thus a low chance the applicant will attend their school. It allows them to show higher selectivity, which provides a marginal assist to their ranking.

Penn and UVA are the T14 schools that seem to yield protect URMs the hardest. You can see the phenomenon here:

Image

There is no way in hell an applicant qualified to be admitted to Harvard or Stanford is not qualified to be admitted to Penn. No way.

hcss11
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Re: Blacks and Law School: By The Numbers

Postby hcss11 » Sun May 26, 2013 12:44 pm

dawyzest1 wrote:
hcss11 wrote:
a. What does Yield Protect mean?

b. My GPA is 3.37/4.0.


Yield protection is something law schools will engage in when they receive an applicant who is otherwise qualified for admission that they wait-list because they believe there is a good chance the applicant will get into more desirable schools and thus a low chance the applicant will attend their school. It allows them to show higher selectivity, which provides a marginal assist to their ranking.

Penn and UVA are the T14 schools that seem to yield protect URMs the hardest. You can see the phenomenon here:

http://myLSN.info/d1qmwe_1-14.jpg

There is no way in hell an applicant qualified to be admitted to Harvard or Stanford is not qualified to be admitted to Penn. No way.


Christ—that's insane. The figures are completely backwards. I'll do we'll to avoid UPenn and UVA, for sure. Yale seems just as tough.

Harvard, Stanford and NYU seem to be the best picks in terms of ranking and selectivity. Thanks for helping manage my expectations realistically.

Lastly—would taking a year or so off to work be beneficial in my case? Would love to get thoughts on this. :)
Last edited by hcss11 on Sun May 26, 2013 12:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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txdude45
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Re: Blacks and Law School: By The Numbers

Postby txdude45 » Sun May 26, 2013 12:52 pm

hcss11 wrote:Christ—that's insane. The figures are completely backwards. I'll do we'll to avoid UPenn and UVA, for sure. Yale seems just as tough.

Harvard, Stanford and NYU seem to be the best picks in terms of ranking and selectivity. Thanks for helping manage my expectations realistically.


Yale isn't yield protecting. They just LOL at 50% of their applicant pool and have a black box admissions process. With a 83% yield rate (the next highest being 64% for BYU), Yale is like the honey badger: they get who they want.

source: http://abovethelaw.com/2013/03/which-la ... ield-rate/

hcss11
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Re: Blacks and Law School: By The Numbers

Postby hcss11 » Sun May 26, 2013 1:05 pm

txdude45 wrote:
hcss11 wrote:Christ—that's insane. The figures are completely backwards. I'll do we'll to avoid UPenn and UVA, for sure. Yale seems just as tough.

Harvard, Stanford and NYU seem to be the best picks in terms of ranking and selectivity. Thanks for helping manage my expectations realistically.


Yale isn't yield protecting. They just LOL at 50% of their applicant pool and have a black box admissions process. With a 83% yield rate (the next highest being 64% for BYU), Yale is like the honey badger: they get who they want.

source: http://abovethelaw.com/2013/03/which-la ... ield-rate/


O___o

Is there any scenario in which I'd be eligible for YLS? I'm guessing not, but you guys know much more about this whole matter than I do. Thoughts?

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txdude45
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Re: Blacks and Law School: By The Numbers

Postby txdude45 » Sun May 26, 2013 1:14 pm

hcss11 wrote:
txdude45 wrote:
hcss11 wrote:Christ—that's insane. The figures are completely backwards. I'll do we'll to avoid UPenn and UVA, for sure. Yale seems just as tough.

Harvard, Stanford and NYU seem to be the best picks in terms of ranking and selectivity. Thanks for helping manage my expectations realistically.


Yale isn't yield protecting. They just LOL at 50% of their applicant pool and have a black box admissions process. With a 83% yield rate (the next highest being 64% for BYU), Yale is like the honey badger: they get who they want.

source: http://abovethelaw.com/2013/03/which-la ... ield-rate/


O___o

Is there any scenario in which I'd be eligible for YLS? I'm guessing not, but you guys know much more about this whole matter than I do. Thoughts?


There are certainly scenarios. Based on mylsn, scoring above 165 for a 3.6 GPA creates a non-zero chance. Above 170 and you're probably in as best a position as you can be, although still sub 25%. Who knows, your soft factors (if you have them) in combination with declining apps may nudge you in.

hcss11
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Re: Blacks and Law School: By The Numbers

Postby hcss11 » Sun May 26, 2013 1:51 pm

txdude45 wrote:
hcss11 wrote:
txdude45 wrote:
hcss11 wrote:Christ—that's insane. The figures are completely backwards. I'll do we'll to avoid UPenn and UVA, for sure. Yale seems just as tough.

Harvard, Stanford and NYU seem to be the best picks in terms of ranking and selectivity. Thanks for helping manage my expectations realistically.


Yale isn't yield protecting. They just LOL at 50% of their applicant pool and have a black box admissions process. With a 83% yield rate (the next highest being 64% for BYU), Yale is like the honey badger: they get who they want.

source: http://abovethelaw.com/2013/03/which-la ... ield-rate/


O___o

Is there any scenario in which I'd be eligible for YLS? I'm guessing not, but you guys know much more about this whole matter than I do. Thoughts?


There are certainly scenarios. Based on mylsn, scoring above 165 for a 3.6 GPA creates a non-zero chance. Above 170 and you're probably in as best a position as you can be, although still sub 25%. Who knows, your soft factors (if you have them) in combination with declining apps may nudge you in.


Hmm well I only have a rough 3.4 (e.g. 3.37/4.0). Can a high score a d good soft factors really offset a less than desirable GPA?

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John_rizzy_rawls
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Re: Blacks and Law School: By The Numbers

Postby John_rizzy_rawls » Sun May 26, 2013 1:56 pm

3.4 ain't getting into Yale, period.

It takes the best stats + amazing soft factors.

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txdude45
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Re: Blacks and Law School: By The Numbers

Postby txdude45 » Sun May 26, 2013 2:01 pm

hcss11 wrote:Hmm well I only have a rough 3.4 (e.g. 3.37/4.0). Can a high score a d good soft factors really offset a less than desirable GPA?


Sorry about that, I misremembered your GPA. You're not gonna get into Yale. Even if you got a 175+, you'd probably be waitlisted at best and even that is small likelihood.

Don't come at this as Yale, or bust though. It is the best school, but unless you want every advantage going into academia, any other T6 school will give you a chance to achieve your goals whatever those may be. BigLaw, BigFed, & Art. 3 clerkships are very well represented in the T6. Besides, most laymen think Harvard is #1 anyway, so if you want dat preftige...

hcss11
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Re: Blacks and Law School: By The Numbers

Postby hcss11 » Sun May 26, 2013 2:14 pm

John_rizzy_rawls wrote:3.4 ain't getting into Yale, period.

It takes the best stats + amazing soft factors.


Yeah I thought not. DaWyzest1's chart basically says it all.

hcss11
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Re: Blacks and Law School: By The Numbers

Postby hcss11 » Sun May 26, 2013 2:30 pm

txdude45 wrote:
hcss11 wrote:Hmm well I only have a rough 3.4 (e.g. 3.37/4.0). Can a high score a d good soft factors really offset a less than desirable GPA?


Sorry about that, I misremembered your GPA. You're not gonna get into Yale. Even if you got a 175+, you'd probably be waitlisted at best and even that is small likelihood.

Don't come at this as Yale, or bust though. It is the best school, but unless you want every advantage going into academia, any other T6 school will give you a chance to achieve your goals whatever those may be. BigLaw, BigFed, & Art. 3 clerkships are very well represented in the T6. Besides, most laymen think Harvard is #1 anyway, so if you want dat preftige...


And no, I was pretty sure I wasn't getting into Yale from the start, so no harm done there. I like my chances @ the T6 besides Yale. Not going to apply to UVA or UPenn because of YP stats, unless someone can give me a good reason for doing so. Thanks overall, guys. If I have any other questions, I'll let you guys know. :)

hcss11
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Re: Blacks and Law School: By The Numbers

Postby hcss11 » Sun May 26, 2013 2:37 pm

txdude45 wrote:
hcss11 wrote:Hmm well I only have a rough 3.4 (e.g. 3.37/4.0). Can a high score a d good soft factors really offset a less than desirable GPA?


Sorry about that, I misremembered your GPA. You're not gonna get into Yale. Even if you got a 175+, you'd probably be waitlisted at best and even that is small likelihood.

Don't come at this as Yale, or bust though. It is the best school, but unless you want every advantage going into academia, any other T6 school will give you a chance to achieve your goals whatever those may be. BigLaw, BigFed, & Art. 3 clerkships are very well represented in the T6. Besides, most laymen think Harvard is #1 anyway, so if you want dat preftige...


By the way, check your inbox.

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J-e-L-L-o
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Re: Blacks and Law School: By The Numbers

Postby J-e-L-L-o » Sun May 26, 2013 2:37 pm

hcss11 wrote:
txdude45 wrote:
hcss11 wrote:Hmm well I only have a rough 3.4 (e.g. 3.37/4.0). Can a high score a d good soft factors really offset a less than desirable GPA?


Sorry about that, I misremembered your GPA. You're not gonna get into Yale. Even if you got a 175+, you'd probably be waitlisted at best and even that is small likelihood.

Don't come at this as Yale, or bust though. It is the best school, but unless you want every advantage going into academia, any other T6 school will give you a chance to achieve your goals whatever those may be. BigLaw, BigFed, & Art. 3 clerkships are very well represented in the T6. Besides, most laymen think Harvard is #1 anyway, so if you want dat preftige...


And no, I was pretty sure I wasn't getting into Yale from the start, so no harm done there. I like my chances @ the T6 besides Yale. Not going to apply to UVA or UPenn because of YP stats, unless someone can give me a good reason for doing so. Thanks overall, guys. If I have any other questions, I'll let you guys know. :)


Blanket the T14. Why? Because you will get differing scholarship amounts that you can use for leverage to increase a scholly award. A free app to one of them could be worth up to 50k or more if they grant you a scholarship. You never know.

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John_rizzy_rawls
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Re: Blacks and Law School: By The Numbers

Postby John_rizzy_rawls » Sun May 26, 2013 2:44 pm

hcss11 wrote:
txdude45 wrote:
hcss11 wrote:Hmm well I only have a rough 3.4 (e.g. 3.37/4.0). Can a high score a d good soft factors really offset a less than desirable GPA?


Sorry about that, I misremembered your GPA. You're not gonna get into Yale. Even if you got a 175+, you'd probably be waitlisted at best and even that is small likelihood.

Don't come at this as Yale, or bust though. It is the best school, but unless you want every advantage going into academia, any other T6 school will give you a chance to achieve your goals whatever those may be. BigLaw, BigFed, & Art. 3 clerkships are very well represented in the T6. Besides, most laymen think Harvard is #1 anyway, so if you want dat preftige...


And no, I was pretty sure I wasn't getting into Yale from the start, so no harm done there. I like my chances @ the T6 besides Yale. Not going to apply to UVA or UPenn because of YP stats, unless someone can give me a good reason for doing so. Thanks overall, guys. If I have any other questions, I'll let you guys know. :)


Apply to Penn and UVA. Your GPA is low so chances of YP are lower and you can use their offers to get other schools to up their scholly amounts.

hcss11
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Re: Blacks and Law School: By The Numbers

Postby hcss11 » Sun May 26, 2013 2:50 pm

Jello + Rizzy: wow, I hadn't thought about it that way. Thanks for the advice. So excited now!

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dawyzest1
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Re: Blacks and Law School: By The Numbers

Postby dawyzest1 » Sun May 26, 2013 5:36 pm

John_rizzy_rawls wrote:
Apply to Penn and UVA. Your GPA is low so chances of YP are lower and you can use their offers to get other schools to up their scholly amounts.


This. I have seen two types of folks get UVA as URMs...super high numbers types who they are throwing a full scholarship at or folks with lower numbers. Rizzy is spot-on, your 3.4 might signal to Penn and UVA that they will be your best option when everything is settled. And, let's face it, Penn or UVA with money is hardly a horrible outcome.

hcss11
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Re: Blacks and Law School: By The Numbers

Postby hcss11 » Wed May 29, 2013 4:00 pm

Last question: Does anyone know of any threads similar to this one on MBA admissions? Thanks in advance!

Xixak
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Re: Blacks and Law School: By The Numbers

Postby Xixak » Mon Jun 17, 2013 9:56 am

Does this also include international black applicants?

Throttle
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Re: Blacks and Law School: By The Numbers

Postby Throttle » Mon Jun 17, 2013 8:38 pm

Xixak wrote:Does this also include international black applicants?


African American only. Not black ppl.

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John_rizzy_rawls
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Re: Blacks and Law School: By The Numbers

Postby John_rizzy_rawls » Mon Jun 17, 2013 8:57 pm

Throttle wrote:
Xixak wrote:Does this also include international black applicants?


African American only. Not black ppl.


Incorrect.

The federal government, universities, employers and everyone else always has "Black/African American" next to the box. International black would be just that, black. So you would be the former, but not the latter. But you would still check that box. Period.

See this form for evidence. Also, feel free to check out any other "check your ethnicity here" forms.

You've gotten this answer a bunch of times now, you've also gotten it from someone who is a former adcomm and current admissions consultant. So maybe stop asking.

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A-Modest-Proposal
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Re: Blacks and Law School: By The Numbers

Postby A-Modest-Proposal » Mon Jun 17, 2013 11:39 pm

This is a very helpful tool, extremely comprehensive and organized.

It's unfortunate that in a matter of days, these numbers may be rendered moot - given that the supreme court is on the edge of ruling against Affirmative-action. None of us know exactly what the decision will be, but by expert opinions, it doesn't seem to look so good for Affirmative action. If it does go down, it's unclear to what extent it will be deconstructed.

At that point, the next application cycle will be very intriguing for URM applicants. It's unclear if less URM's will be admitted to top schools because of a general trend of scores that are less stellar than the non-URM applicants. But if it is the case that less are admitted, that is deeply troubling.

What I got from this thread, compiled my feelings on the looming SCOTUS decision, URM's are underperforming, and we may all need to step our game up in future cycles to ensure that we can secure our spots T14 schools. If not, the numbers of URM's will fall, and everyone loses in that scenario.

Xixak
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Re: Blacks and Law School: By The Numbers

Postby Xixak » Mon Jun 17, 2013 11:58 pm

A-Modest-Proposal wrote:This is a very helpful tool, extremely comprehensive and organized.

It's unfortunate that in a matter of days, these numbers may be rendered moot - given that the supreme court is on the edge of ruling against Affirmative-action. None of us know exactly what the decision will be, but by expert opinions, it doesn't seem to look so good for Affirmative action. If it does go down, it's unclear to what extent it will be deconstructed.

At that point, the next application cycle will be very intriguing for URM applicants. It's unclear if less URM's will be admitted to top schools because of a general trend of scores that are less stellar than the non-URM applicants. But if it is the case that less are admitted, that is deeply troubling.

What I got from this thread, compiled my feelings on the looming SCOTUS decision, URM's are underperforming, and we may all need to step our game up in future cycles to ensure that we can secure our spots T14 schools. If not, the numbers of URM's will fall, and everyone loses in that scenario.


Just my luck of course this has to happen the year before my cycle.




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