Does being an international student make you a URM? boost?

(BLS, URM status, non-traditional, GLBT)
dynamic28
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Does being an international student make you a URM? boost?

Postby dynamic28 » Wed Aug 22, 2012 10:00 am

I am a black female with African citizenship. While I have been in the US since elementary school, I've only been a permanent resident for a few years. Am I a "super URM" as a permanent resident African female or would I get the same URM boost as an AA F?

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bk1
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Re: Does being an international student make you a URM? boost?

Postby bk1 » Wed Aug 22, 2012 10:01 am

dynamic28 wrote:same URM boost as an AA F


This.

dynamic28
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Re: Does being an international student make you a URM? boost?

Postby dynamic28 » Wed Aug 22, 2012 10:19 am

bk1 wrote:
dynamic28 wrote:same URM boost as an AA F


This.



What makes you say that? Not that I am at all disagreeing, I am just wondering what specific information is out there that would lead to that conclusion.

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bk1
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Re: Does being an international student make you a URM? boost?

Postby bk1 » Wed Aug 22, 2012 10:24 am

dynamic28 wrote:What makes you say that? Not that I am at all disagreeing, I am just wondering what specific information is out there that would lead to that conclusion.


There has been no evidence to the contrary. I know it's not a satisfying answer, but there has not been any evidence to show that Africans from Africa fare any better than African-Americans. There probably aren't too many of the former applying to law school so it might be possible. That being said, it's safer to assume that you will be treated the same as an AA.

I also think that intuitively it does not make sense. The URM boost gets people into places where they are often 10 LSAT points out of contention (sometimes 10 LSAT points and a few 1/10 GPA points). AAs generally get the largest URM boost. For there to be a boost larger than this you'd basically have people with something like mid 150s LSATs consistently getting into T14s which I just don't find that plausible.

dynamic28
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Re: Does being an international student make you a URM? boost?

Postby dynamic28 » Wed Aug 22, 2012 10:27 am

bk1 wrote:
dynamic28 wrote:What makes you say that? Not that I am at all disagreeing, I am just wondering what specific information is out there that would lead to that conclusion.


There has been no evidence to the contrary. I know it's not a satisfying answer, but there has not been any evidence to show that Africans from Africa fare any better than African-Americans. There probably aren't too many of the former applying to law school so it might be possible. That being said, it's safer to assume that you will be treated the same as an AA.

I also think that intuitively it does not make sense. The URM boost gets people into places where they are often 10 LSAT points out of contention (sometimes 10 LSAT points and a few 1/10 GPA points). AAs generally get the largest URM boost. For there to be a boost larger than this you'd basically have people with something like mid 150s LSATs consistently getting into T14s which I just don't find that plausible.


Ok, cool. Thanks!

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20121109
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Re: Does being an international student make you a URM? boost?

Postby 20121109 » Tue Sep 11, 2012 3:10 am

dynamic28 wrote:
bk1 wrote:
dynamic28 wrote:What makes you say that? Not that I am at all disagreeing, I am just wondering what specific information is out there that would lead to that conclusion.


There has been no evidence to the contrary. I know it's not a satisfying answer, but there has not been any evidence to show that Africans from Africa fare any better than African-Americans. There probably aren't too many of the former applying to law school so it might be possible. That being said, it's safer to assume that you will be treated the same as an AA.

I also think that intuitively it does not make sense. The URM boost gets people into places where they are often 10 LSAT points out of contention (sometimes 10 LSAT points and a few 1/10 GPA points). AAs generally get the largest URM boost. For there to be a boost larger than this you'd basically have people with something like mid 150s LSATs consistently getting into T14s which I just don't find that plausible.


Ok, cool. Thanks!


BK, I think you're uncharacteristically off here so I apologize for the semi-necro.

I know from personal experience that international/citizenship status can make a difference. When I applied to law school without a green card, I was so uncertain of whether I would get a URM boost that it cemented my decision to retake the LSAT for a 170+. I've heard from many people and viewed certain cycles of international students having a tougher time than apparent U.S. citizens and permanent residents. I really don't think URM internationals are treated the same as URM citizens/residents. There maybe a slight boost, but not as equivalent to the usual.

ajr
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Re: Does being an international student make you a URM? boost?

Postby ajr » Tue Sep 11, 2012 3:28 am

GAIAtheCHEERLEADER wrote:
dynamic28 wrote:
bk1 wrote:
dynamic28 wrote:What makes you say that? Not that I am at all disagreeing, I am just wondering what specific information is out there that would lead to that conclusion.


There has been no evidence to the contrary. I know it's not a satisfying answer, but there has not been any evidence to show that Africans from Africa fare any better than African-Americans. There probably aren't too many of the former applying to law school so it might be possible. That being said, it's safer to assume that you will be treated the same as an AA.

I also think that intuitively it does not make sense. The URM boost gets people into places where they are often 10 LSAT points out of contention (sometimes 10 LSAT points and a few 1/10 GPA points). AAs generally get the largest URM boost. For there to be a boost larger than this you'd basically have people with something like mid 150s LSATs consistently getting into T14s which I just don't find that plausible.


Ok, cool. Thanks!


BK, I think you're uncharacteristically off here so I apologize for the semi-necro.

I know from personal experience that international/citizenship status can make a difference. When I applied to law school without a green card, I was so uncertain of whether I would get a URM boost that it cemented my decision to retake the LSAT for a 170+. I've heard from many people and viewed certain cycles of international students having a tougher time than apparent U.S. citizens and permanent residents. I really don't think URM internationals are treated the same as URM citizens/residents. There maybe a slight boost, but not as equivalent to the usual.


This sounds correct. The law schools don't care for affirmative action for foreigners.

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bk1
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Re: Does being an international student make you a URM? boost?

Postby bk1 » Tue Sep 11, 2012 5:27 pm

GAIAtheCHEERLEADER wrote:BK, I think you're uncharacteristically off here so I apologize for the semi-necro.

I know from personal experience that international/citizenship status can make a difference. When I applied to law school without a green card, I was so uncertain of whether I would get a URM boost that it cemented my decision to retake the LSAT for a 170+. I've heard from many people and viewed certain cycles of international students having a tougher time than apparent U.S. citizens and permanent residents. I really don't think URM internationals are treated the same as URM citizens/residents. There maybe a slight boost, but not as equivalent to the usual.


That's completely fair and I defer to someone with knowledge on this. My basis was that I hadn't really seen evidence to the contrary on TLS and that, at least to me, it made sense to lump them all together since they could still say "we have X% students of color" whether those people were international or not.

To add a counterpoint though, how much can you disentangle the difficulty resulting from being an international versus being international URM? Don't internationals often have a slightly tougher time normally and so maybe a smaller boost is merely the comingling of a URM boost with international difficulty? There's also the whole "no grades" issue to consider if those people did not go to a US undergrad.

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20121109
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Re: Does being an international student make you a URM? boost?

Postby 20121109 » Tue Sep 11, 2012 9:07 pm

bk1 wrote:
GAIAtheCHEERLEADER wrote:BK, I think you're uncharacteristically off here so I apologize for the semi-necro.

I know from personal experience that international/citizenship status can make a difference. When I applied to law school without a green card, I was so uncertain of whether I would get a URM boost that it cemented my decision to retake the LSAT for a 170+. I've heard from many people and viewed certain cycles of international students having a tougher time than apparent U.S. citizens and permanent residents. I really don't think URM internationals are treated the same as URM citizens/residents. There maybe a slight boost, but not as equivalent to the usual.


That's completely fair and I defer to someone with knowledge on this. My basis was that I hadn't really seen evidence to the contrary on TLS and that, at least to me, it made sense to lump them all together since they could still say "we have X% students of color" whether those people were international or not.

To add a counterpoint though, how much can you disentangle the difficulty resulting from being an international versus being international URM? Don't internationals often have a slightly tougher time normally and so maybe a smaller boost is merely the comingling of a URM boost with international difficulty? There's also the whole "no grades" issue to consider if those people did not go to a US undergrad.


Very valid point, Bk. That could really be the reason explaining why international URMs do not experience as much as a boost as US citizen/resident URMs. Internationals in general have a harder time to earn admission into a JD program in the US so it makes sense why the boost for international URMs is comparably smaller.

General rule of thumb: International applicants, whether URM or non-URM, have a tougher admission cycle than their URM, non-URM counterparts.




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