. Forum

[jkpolk]

Never claimed to be an authority, hence why I'm asking the questions I'm asking. I think asking for help implies that the information/assumptions I'm basing my conclusions on might be faulty. Now if I was giving advice with false premises then I think it would be fair to criticize me for being wrong. Also, no one knows that they are going to "crush it" anywhere, but I'm pretty sure that the people who do end up "crushing it" went in thinking that they would.

Either way, I see where you are coming from, you assumed that I was a know it all and sought to disabuse me of that notion. I appreciate the sentiment and thank you for the effort.

Dudes go to Sarah Lawrence College?

[hume85]

Never claimed to be an authority, hence why I'm asking the questions I'm asking. I think asking for help implies that the information/assumptions I'm basing my conclusions on might be faulty. Now if I was giving advice with false premises then I think it would be fair to criticize me for being wrong. Also, no one knows that they are going to "crush it" anywhere, but I'm pretty sure that the people who do end up "crushing it" went in thinking that they would.

Either way, I see where you are coming from, you assumed that I was a know it all and sought to disabuse me of that notion. I appreciate the sentiment and thank you for the effort.

Dudes go to Sarah Lawrence College?

Yes, they do, but I think women outnumber men 3 to 1. That sounds like an awesome social environment.

[jkpolk]

But it should be noted that about 1/3 of those women are lesbians. So the straight guys are competing with the lesbians for the affections of the straight females. I'm pretty sure that most of the straight girls spend a lot of their time as Sarah Lawrence focused on studies.

I'd rather be a professional driver who one day finds that his shipment is a living woman gagged and bound and then has a moral dilemma about whether or not to transport the woman, while at the same time trying to avoid the police and gangsters trying to acquire the woman through nefarious means including blowing up the transporter's house and firing bullets and grenades at his person until he decides to help the woman free her people who are being trafficked into the united states than go to this college.

[TheProsecutor]

If you're looking at your chances:

I got into all of the t14 including a Hamilton Fellowship with a similar GPA and slightly higher than the top of your range LSAT score.

My girlfriend at the time got into all of the t14 including HLS/YLS/SLS . . . with a similar GPA, but slightly lower than your average LSAT.

Suffice to say, I think you'll get into a top 6 school if you hit your average. I think you can possibly get $$ if your LSAT is good enough. And even if you're below your average, you can sneak into Y/H/S depending on how well done your application is, how much other stuff you have going for you, and how good your recs are. Just don't go too far below that average, your odds of top 6 drop dramatically if you get below a 163 I think.

[TheProsecutor]

Come back after you have a score. You have a killer GPA and work experience. If applications play out next year like they did this year, you could get a massive scholarship with the right score.

I think your idea of the T6 is a little too narrow. You can still attain your dream outside of those. I understand that you want to maximize your shot at biglaw. So gun for T6 but apply to other schools as well.

You sound like you have a great family situation going with your wife. That is wonderful.

PS. You also sound stressed because of waiting for scores to be released. Whatever you get, June isn't the end of the world. Don't put yourself in a box.

I think that you're right on all accounts. My family situation is without a doubt awesome if I wasn't worried about law schools looking at it as a negative my PS would be about how I couldn't have gotten this far without my wife. Also, I see this box you sleek of...it's getting smaller and smaller with every moment I wait and with every post I read about bright T3s not being able to find work.

Yeah, do not write your personal statement about how you could not have succeeded without your wife. When you write your memoir, use the dedication page for that. Instead, use your essays to answer some basic questions: How can a 31 year old fit into law schools where the average age is 24? Why does a 31 year old now want to go to law school? What are your intellectual interests? How does an auditor get interested in law? Are you trying to adjust to the new economic realities of the country? Frame the answers to these questions by telling a story about yourself and weave in some of the themes (one or two...don't try to do too much in one essay though. Your recs, diversity statements, resume, etc can help tell a broader story) you want to convey.

31 is not too old to go to law school, but because of your age law schools will want a more focused narrative about why law school than they would from a 22 year old.

[flcath]

Why all the T6 bashing? It's a pretty meaningful distinction, with the caveat that NYU lags a little within the category and Penn is almost as good outside of it. (How is that difference from the T14 and the GULC/Vandy issue?)

You are right that it is a meaningful distinction, but for nonsplitters the choice is usually between a lower T14 with a significant scholarship and a T6 with little to no money. So that factor blurs the decision for many.

Fair enough.

Never claimed to be an authority, hence why I'm asking the questions I'm asking. I think asking for help implies that the information/assumptions I'm basing my conclusions on might be faulty. Now if I was giving advice with false premises then I think it would be fair to criticize me for being wrong. Also, no one knows that they are going to "crush it" anywhere, but I'm pretty sure that the people who do end up "crushing it" went in thinking that they would.

Either way, I see where you are coming from, you assumed that I was a know it all and sought to disabuse me of that notion. I appreciate the sentiment and thank you for the effort.

Dudes go to Sarah Lawrence College?

Yes, they do, but I think women outnumber men 3 to 1. That sounds like an awesome social environment.

I like the thought process, but I am 90% certain that this doesn't end up working out the way you're thinking it does.

[Miracle]

Where are you getting your information from. Anywhere within T-14 you will be fine!

I have no clue why you are limiting it to T-6, as if Georgetown, Michigan, etc will not give you great job prospects. Im confused.

I guess i was a bit vague, I prefer to come back to the NYC area after law school and while Georgetown, Duke, and others in the T14 still offer prospects for Big Law NYC, they are less of a lock.

Mind you, that most of this info has been gleamed from info on TLS, including posts that may not be representative of the majority of students.

Still, not to to be rude, your post doesn't make sense. The general consesus on TLS, and everywhere is that T-14 is fine. Obviously Harvard is better than Duke, or Michigan nonetheless anywhere within T-14 would be fine. I'm at GULC aiming at NYC market and have more than enough opportunities to achieve my goal.

[vanwinkle]

The general consesus on TLS, and everywhere is that T-14 is fine.

What? No it's not. (If it is, it shouldn't be.) It's certainly not the consensus "everywhere".

Only 31% of GULC grads in the class of 2011 got NLJ 250 jobs. Given that the NLJ 250 is rather NY-heavy that's especially concerning for people who want to work in NYC. Even within the T14 there's cause for concern and reason to weigh your choice of school (or of not attending at all) seriously. And there have been prominent TLS posters who have gotten good grades at T-14s and struck out job-hunting or had to settle for far less than they expected going in.

The only people I see claiming that "the T-14 is fine" are clueless 0Ls.

[Tom Joad]

Just listen to Vanwinkle and profit.

[vanwinkle]

Well I must have misinterpreted some of the posts I've read.

You didn't misinterpret anything. There are risks to attending nearly every law school these days, even at the T-14 level. I'm not saying you shouldn't go, but I am saying anyone who claims it's as simple as "T-14 is fine" is an idiot or a liar, or both. (See my above post for why.)

[rayiner]

Why all the T6 bashing? It's a pretty meaningful distinction, with the caveat that NYU lags a little within the category and Penn is almost as good outside of it. (How is that difference from the T14 and the GULC/Vandy issue?)

It really isn't. Both T6 and T14 are outdated. It's T7 and T13 now.

[TheProsecutor]

Where are you getting your information from. Anywhere within T-14 you will be fine!

I have no clue why you are limiting it to T-6, as if Georgetown, Michigan, etc will not give you great job prospects. Im confused.

I guess i was a bit vague, I prefer to come back to the NYC area after law school and while Georgetown, Duke, and others in the T14 still offer prospects for Big Law NYC, they are less of a lock.

Mind you, that most of this info has been gleamed from info on TLS, including posts that may not be representative of the majority of students.

Still, not to to be rude, your post doesn't make sense. The general consesus on TLS, and everywhere is that T-14 is fine. Obviously Harvard is better than Duke, or Michigan nonetheless anywhere within T-14 would be fine. I'm at GULC aiming at NYC market and have more than enough opportunities to achieve my goal.

Certainly, people at GULC get NYC biglaw, but if the OP is aiming for NYC biglaw his targets should be: HYSCCN.

Only 62.58% of GULC grads got jobs where a law degree is required according to the recent ABA data. And among these, like Vanwinkle pointed out, only 31% got NLJ 250 jobs. And these numbers are terrible. Taken together they are easily the worst among the top 14 and it isn't because they are placing so many people into clerkships. According to TaxProf blog, in 2011, GULC only sent 5.3% of its graduates to Article III clerkships.

Not only is Georgetown not "fine," it is probably a disaster to choose unless you have a significant scholarship to mitigate the risk of attending.

This is not even to speak of the fact that the quality of choices declines the further down in the rankings you go (roughly speaking for the average student). If the OP was to go to Harvard, Yale or Columbia and rank at median or above, he'd likely have multiple offers from firms with great reputations and cultures. He may be in the position to choose where he wants to go. If he goes to GULC, he might just have to settle for the one firm that takes him in NYC, if he's that lucky.

Adding on to the pressure is that the OP already has a spouse who has sacrificed to make this thing happen. His fortunes not only impact him, but his wife as well. In view of these circumstances, the OP should probably be more risk adverse at the outset than daring. Sure, if he's Supreme Court Clerk material, it won't matter where he goes . . . but if he's not, he's FAR FAR FAR better off going to HYSCCN than any of the others out there.

And finally, if I were the OP, I would not settle for anything less. With his GPA and his practice scores, he's within striking range of one of those schools. If he gets at the bottom of his LSAT range, he should retake because the difference between the very best schools and the rest, right or wrong, is huge.

[Miracle]

Where are you getting your information from. Anywhere within T-14 you will be fine!

I have no clue why you are limiting it to T-6, as if Georgetown, Michigan, etc will not give you great job prospects. Im confused.

I guess i was a bit vague, I prefer to come back to the NYC area after law school and while Georgetown, Duke, and others in the T14 still offer prospects for Big Law NYC, they are less of a lock.

Mind you, that most of this info has been gleamed from info on TLS, including posts that may not be representative of the majority of students.

Still, not to to be rude, your post doesn't make sense. The general consesus on TLS, and everywhere is that T-14 is fine. Obviously Harvard is better than Duke, or Michigan nonetheless anywhere within T-14 would be fine. I'm at GULC aiming at NYC market and have more than enough opportunities to achieve my goal.

Certainly, people at GULC get NYC biglaw, but if the OP is aiming for NYC biglaw his targets should be: HYSCCN.

Only 62.58% of GULC grads got jobs where a law degree is required according to the recent ABA data. And among these, like Vanwinkle pointed out, only 31% got NLJ 250 jobs. And these numbers are terrible. Taken together they are easily the worst among the top 14 and it isn't because they are placing so many people into clerkships. According to TaxProf blog, in 2011, GULC only sent 5.3% of its graduates to Article III clerkships.

Not only is Georgetown not "fine," it is probably a disaster to choose unless you have a significant scholarship to mitigate the risk of attending.

This is not even to speak of the fact that the quality of choices declines the further down in the rankings you go (roughly speaking for the average student). If the OP was to go to Harvard, Yale or Columbia and rank at median or above, he'd likely have multiple offers from firms with great reputations and cultures. He may be in the position to choose where he wants to go. If he goes to GULC, he might just have to settle for the one firm that takes him in NYC, if he's that lucky.

Adding on to the pressure is that the OP already has a spouse who has sacrificed to make this thing happen. His fortunes not only impact him, but his wife as well. In view of these circumstances, the OP should probably be more risk adverse at the outset than daring. Sure, if he's Supreme Court Clerk material, it won't matter where he goes . . . but if he's not, he's FAR FAR FAR better off going to HYSCCN than any of the others out there.

And finally, if I were the OP, I would not settle for anything less. With his GPA and his practice scores, he's within striking range of one of those schools. If he gets at the bottom of his LSAT range, he should retake because the difference between the very best schools and the rest, right or wrong, is huge.

I think that you are being a tad bit paranoid, and speak of culture that you are clearly unfamiliar with. Our graduating class had many "choices" when it came to picking what firm to work for, and were not " forced to settle
for anything." You started trashing GULC as if its a TTTT school. Many people attend schools for many other purposes that just to become a lawyer. If you are seeking a promise from school that they will place you in the firm "you like" then you shouldn't be there at all. Do medical students receive residence based on the school promise? Of course not! They have to compete for it. Im not arguing that GULC is better than Harvard etc., but to claim that T6 is the only path to success is kind of ignorant on your part. I wasn't claiming that its an easy road rather than the possibility is there.

[Miracle]

Well I must have misinterpreted some of the posts I've read.

You didn't misinterpret anything. There are risks to attending nearly every law school these days, even at the T-14 level. I'm not saying you shouldn't go, but I am saying anyone who claims it's as simple as "T-14 is fine" is an idiot or a liar, or both. (See my above post for why.)

Isn't there a risk to everything you do? Is med school a guarantee? Residency positions are extremely competitive with a med student unclear if he/she will ever achieve the desired residency, and are often asked to think about 2nd and 3rd option. Nothing is a guarantee, but somehow to claim that GULC is a "horrible" decision is kind of ignorant. Not everyone (such as me) goes to law school to become part of big law life.

[hume85]

Well I must have misinterpreted some of the posts I've read.

You didn't misinterpret anything. There are risks to attending nearly every law school these days, even at the T-14 level. I'm not saying you shouldn't go, but I am saying anyone who claims it's as simple as "T-14 is fine" is an idiot or a liar, or both. (See my above post for why.)

Isn't there a risk to everything you do? Is med school a guarantee? Residency positions are extremely competitive with a med student unclear if he/she will ever achieve the desired residency, and are often asked to think about 2nd and 3rd option. Nothing is a guarantee, but somehow to claim that GULC is a "horrible" decision is kind of ignorant. Not everyone (such as me) goes to law school to become part of big law life.

But OP is interested in Biglaw. Look at his posts; his initial post suggested that he wants a job that will allow him to pay off his loans in a timely fashion and have a family. Then OP suggested he wanted NY Biglaw. For someone that seems pretty dead set on Biglaw Georgetown is a non trivial gamble. I know nothing about med school and its risks, and to be honest I don't see how that is even relevant. But what I do know is that 31% placement+5% clerkship placement is pretty scary for people primarily interested in Biglaw.

[TheProsecutor]

I think that you are being a tad bit paranoid, and speak of culture that you are clearly unfamiliar with. Our graduating class had many "choices" when it came to picking what firm to work for, and were not " forced to settle
for anything." You started trashing GULC as if its a TTTT school. Many people attend schools for many other purposes that just to become a lawyer. If you are seeking a promise from school that they will place you in the firm "you like" then you shouldn't be there at all. Do medical students receive residence based on the school promise? Of course not! They have to compete for it. Im not arguing that GULC is better than Harvard etc., but to claim that T6 is the only path to success is kind of ignorant on your part. I wasn't claiming that its an easy road rather than the possibility is there.

I'm not speaking of a culture I'm unfamilar with. In fact, I know people from GULC who not only aren't "picking what firm to work for," but they have no job AT ALL. I'm glad GULC worked out for you, but to insinuate that your class had "many choices" when it came to picking firms is obviously misleading. Some did; many many many did not. And it doesn't take a person familiar with the culture to point it out, the statistical data speaks for itself.

No one is saying Georgetown is not a good school and no one is saying it is a TTT. I am just saying the OP would be wise to avoid GULC, its unimpressive employment data, its huge class size and its questionable ability to place the average student into biglaw in NYC. Your strawman implying that I said a school should promise the student anything is transparent. No one said a school should promise anything, but if the OP is going to spend three years and thousands upon thousands of dollars, he probably ought to go to a school that gives him better than a 31% chance to reach his goal, no?

Your next strawman is to imply that I said "T6 is the only path to success." Nobody said this. In fact, I said "certainly people from GULC get biglaw in NYC." So of course, going to a t6 school is not the only path to success. The question, however, is the frequency of those reaching that goal at a top 6 school vs. Georgetown. The fact that you apparently cannot understand this distinction while calling others "kind of ignorant" is both amusing and sad all at the same time (this is, of course, to say nothing about your hilarious analogy to residency programs).

Finally, you told the OP that any of the T14 was "fine." It obviously isn't. Now you say that your main point is that you're not claiming that it is "easy" at GULC, but only that "the possibility [for NYC biglaw] is there." Ok, but if you're just advising the OP about the possibility of NYC biglaw, then you might as well advise him to go to Fordham or Brooklyn or any number of schools in the top 100 where it is "possible" to get biglaw in NYC. Instead, I choose to focus on the schools where it is LIKELY that the OP will get NYC biglaw - um, HYSCCN...

And the difference between "likely" and "possible" is huge, kind of like the difference between "fine" and "not fine."

[Miracle]

Well I must have misinterpreted some of the posts I've read.

You didn't misinterpret anything. There are risks to attending nearly every law school these days, even at the T-14 level. I'm not saying you shouldn't go, but I am saying anyone who claims it's as simple as "T-14 is fine" is an idiot or a liar, or both. (See my above post for why.)

Isn't there a risk to everything you do? Is med school a guarantee? Residency positions are extremely competitive with a med student unclear if he/she will ever achieve the desired residency, and are often asked to think about 2nd and 3rd option. Nothing is a guarantee, but somehow to claim that GULC is a "horrible" decision is kind of ignorant. Not everyone (such as me) goes to law school to become part of big law life.

But OP is interested in Biglaw. Look at his posts; his initial post suggested that he wants a job that will allow him to pay off his loans in a timely fashion and have a family. Then OP suggested he wanted NY Biglaw. For someone that seems pretty dead set on Biglaw Georgetown is a non trivial gamble. I know nothing about med school and its risks, and to be honest I don't see how that is even relevant. But what I do know is that 31% placement+5% clerkship placement is pretty scary for people primarily interested in Biglaw.

She said Law schools as a whole is "risky" as if any other school isn't.

[Miracle]

I think that you are being a tad bit paranoid, and speak of culture that you are clearly unfamiliar with. Our graduating class had many "choices" when it came to picking what firm to work for, and were not " forced to settle
for anything." You started trashing GULC as if its a TTTT school. Many people attend schools for many other purposes that just to become a lawyer. If you are seeking a promise from school that they will place you in the firm "you like" then you shouldn't be there at all. Do medical students receive residence based on the school promise? Of course not! They have to compete for it. Im not arguing that GULC is better than Harvard etc., but to claim that T6 is the only path to success is kind of ignorant on your part. I wasn't claiming that its an easy road rather than the possibility is there.

I'm not speaking of a culture I'm unfamilar with. In fact, I know people from GULC who not only aren't "picking what firm to work for," but they have no job AT ALL. I'm glad GULC worked out for you, but to insinuate that your class had "many choices" when it came to picking firms is obviously misleading. Some did; many many many did not. And it doesn't take a person familiar with the culture to point it out, the statistical data speaks for itself.

No one is saying Georgetown is not a good school and no one is saying it is a TTT. I am just saying the OP would be wise to avoid GULC, its unimpressive employment data, its huge class size and its questionable ability to place the average student into biglaw in NYC. Your strawman implying that I said a school should promise the student anything is transparent. No one said a school should promise anything, but if the OP is going to spend three years and thousands upon thousands of dollars, he probably ought to go to a school that gives him better than a 31% chance to reach his goal, no?

Your next strawman is to imply that I said "T6 is the only path to success." Nobody said this. In fact, I said "certainly people from GULC get biglaw in NYC." So of course, going to a t6 school is not the only path to success. The question, however, is the frequency of those reaching that goal at a top 6 school vs. Georgetown. The fact that you apparently cannot understand this distinction while calling others "kind of ignorant" is both amusing and sad all at the same time (this is, of course, to say nothing about your hilarious analogy to residency programs).

Finally, you told the OP that any of the T14 was "fine." It obviously isn't. Now you say that your main point is that you're not claiming that it is "easy" at GULC, but only that "the possibility [for NYC biglaw] is there." Ok, but if you're just advising the OP about the possibility of NYC biglaw, then you might as well advise him to go to Fordham or Brooklyn or any number of schools in the top 100 where it is "possible" to get biglaw in NYC. Instead, I choose to focus on the schools where it is LIKELY that the OP will get NYC biglaw - um, HYSCCN...

And the difference between "likely" and "possible" is huge, kind of like the difference between "fine" and "not fine."

You are most definitely not speaking from "experience", rather than what you feel is happening according to your interpretation of the data. Many people at Georgetown do not come to GULC for big law purposes so clearly you don't understand the "culture", if you did you wouldn't be making such hideous claims.

Why is my analogy with regards to residency hilarious?

Fordham, Brooklyn etc do not have the same "possibility" of obtaining big law as do GULC students. What are you talking bout? With regards to possibility I was referring to the fact that the path is there. There is no path at Fordham, Brooklyn etc. If you do well u have a chance. I highly doubt that a graduate in the bottom of his class at HYSCCN will have a better chance of big law then someone at GULC above median.

[TheProsecutor]

You are most definitely not speaking from "experience", rather than what you feel is happening according to your interpretation of the data. Many people at Georgetown do not come to GULC for big law purposes so clearly you don't understand the "culture", if you did you wouldn't be making such hideous claims.

Why is my analogy with regards to residency hilarious?

Fordham, Brooklyn etc do not have the same "possibility" of obtaining big law as do GULC students. What are you talking bout? With regards to possibility I was referring to the fact that the path is there. There is no path at Fordham, Brooklyn etc. If you do well u have a chance. I highly doubt that a graduate in the bottom of his class at HYSCCN will have a better chance of big law then someone at GULC above median.

I agree. People don't go to Georgetown for the biglaw prospects (how could they after looking at the data!?). Instead, most people attend GULC because 1) they are already established professionals looking to add a law degree as they work in Gov't in DC or 2) because they got shut out of all the other top 14 schools. But I'm not sure what people's reasons for going to law school have to do with anything anyways. Most kids at my school went because they wanted to save the world, and then realized they'd have six figure debt and appreciated the opportunity to get biglaw. So, let me ask you directly...do most GULC kids who want biglaw, get it?

Yeah, and I agree Brooklyn doesn't have the same biglaw prospects as GULC, but GULC doesn't have nearly the same prospects as kids from HYSCCN. That's the point.

[vanwinkle]

Well I must have misinterpreted some of the posts I've read.

You didn't misinterpret anything. There are risks to attending nearly every law school these days, even at the T-14 level. I'm not saying you shouldn't go, but I am saying anyone who claims it's as simple as "T-14 is fine" is an idiot or a liar, or both. (See my above post for why.)

Isn't there a risk to everything you do? Is med school a guarantee? Residency positions are extremely competitive with a med student unclear if he/she will ever achieve the desired residency, and are often asked to think about 2nd and 3rd option. Nothing is a guarantee, but somehow to claim that GULC is a "horrible" decision is kind of ignorant. Not everyone (such as me) goes to law school to become part of big law life.

1) There is a risk in everything you do, yes. I take a risk every day by leaving my apartment. I could be run over by a car, shot by a mugger, or swallowed by a newly-forming sinkhole. However, like everything else in life, the question is not whether risk is there or not, but whether the risk outweighs the reward. Med school isn't a guarantee, but these days it's more likely than graduates from most law schools to lead to professional employment paying enough to service their debts.

2) OP wants BigLaw. In NY specifically. You know, the exact employment situation my post addressed.

3) Weighing OP's decision to attend, considering the current odds of OP finding the type of employment desired based on the most recent information available, and assuming paying close to sticker cost using loans, it is either ignorant or malicious to tell OP that he will be "fine" attending GULC. Are you being malicious or just ignorant?

[EdgarWinter]

.

[20121109]

Just listen to Vanwinkle and profit.

[ajaxconstructions]

AA Male is a golden ticket to biglaw. Score anywhere in the 160s and with your 3.9 you will be able to get into a T14 school. Score 170+ and you should have a full ride.

[alpha kenny body]

Score update?

[20121109]

Score update?

Embarrassed, humbled, defeated. 158. Went from between -2 and -4 in LR on PTs to a combined -12 (rushed, didnt read all of the answer choices). Only highlight is that I had only prepped for 6 weeks (first of which was finals week). Other good news is that at test time I was PTing -10 to -14 on LG after powerscore course, test day was -10. Going to do velocity and get that to -0.

I would say more, but it's all just excuses until I actually have a score that reflects what I hope is my true ability.

Until then, thanks for the advice and sorry for wasting everyone's time.

My "crush law school" comment seems like absolute hubris right now.

No reason to feel embarrassed, humiliated or defeated. Honestly with a 3.9/158, as an AA male you still may have a shot at the t6. There was a guy who got Columbia with 3.4/159 in my cycle. However, given your practice scores, you should definitely retake. If you break a 160, which you can easily do, you'll be t6 secure and even have a decent shot at HYS.

You have every incentive to retake. Trust me, I know. I took the LSAT three times. I had the same GPA as you, and got a 166, 166, 172. It sucked but the reward is out of this world. The best advice anyone can give you is retake.

Good luck! <3