URM Students--think long and hard about law school choices Forum

[vyelps]

I think there is a dangerous misconception that pervades TLS - that grades are totally arbitrary. I completely agree that differences between As and A-s or A-s and B+s or (if given a tight curve) As and B+s might be based on arbitrary criteria. However, when a student consistently performs so poorly as to end up in the bottom 10%, I don't think those results can be chalked up to "arbitrary grading." I feel bad for OP. However, OP's experience doesn't seem to be all that different than any student who is at the bottom of the class, regardless of tier or race. I say this as a recent URM grad from MVP. I have a lot of URM friends both at my school at others. The ones with good grades tended to do better in the job hunt than the ones at the bottom of the class. That's just how hiring works in the present legal market. URMs don't need to be told not to go to law school or not to go to a T-14. ALL law students need to be told that (1) law school is incredibly competitive; (2) requires a lot of reading and writing; and (3) generally rewards test takers (at least in 1L year) who know/learn how to convey complex ideas in essay form under severe time pressure. I don't think a lot of students are well prepared for 1L regardless of undergraduate major or work experience. In my totally anecdotal experience, students who took hard, competitive classes in undergrad (regardless of major) were better prepared than those who did not. This cut across discipline/career. The point is that URMs, and all prospective law students, should be realistic about what their career goals are, what steps are required to achieve those goals, and whether they are currently in a position to go to law school in order to achieve those goals. Law school really isn't for everyone. Love of the law is not a sufficient criteria.

[tooswolle]

I think this thread begs the following questions to the op:

1. How did your incoming 1L numbers compare to your cohorts?
2. Did you have previous work experience?

If the numbers were significantly lower that gives credence to the mismatch theory (although it isn't an end all be all, since a few outliers exist)

The second question is more important. If K-JD with no real work experience you can pretty much guess dead in the water. If you had work experience in what field was it?

[Harlyn]

I think this thread begs the following questions to the op:

1. How did your incoming 1L numbers compare to your cohorts?
2. Did you have previous work experience?

If the numbers were significantly lower that gives credence to the mismatch theory (although it isn't an end all be all, since a few outliers exist)

The second question is more important. If K-JD with no real work experience you can pretty much guess dead in the water. If you had work experience in what field was it?

The OP has only two posts ... Smells like a troll. On the off shoot that it is a real story, it tends to give credit to the sanders study/ mismatch theory that many posit. Now I personally don't agree with them or believe in them but they sure as hell scare me if I'm true. If anything this post should be cautionary for people to study in schools where they are qualified to study. Fortunately for me my numbers are on par with other student numbers. So it'll come down to who gets it better not a mismatch in competencies.

For someone who doesn't believe in the Sander's theories, you seem very eager to establish a correlation.

[Honey_Badger]

i am writing this post because ALOT of my other URM friends are in a similar position--not because i feel like some entitled brat. i graduated with a 2.97. Very low, i know--but it's hard to concentrate when you hear nothing but racist comments in class that are indirectly taking jabs at you and your community. It's not at all about interviewing or grades, IMO. Regardless, I have reached out to many Duke Law alums in my area (2nd biggest legal market) and they have not helped at all. Some did not even respond to my emails. Is this what happens at other schools as well?

Honestly, if indirect comments derail you from your work this easily, you shouldn't be a lawyer.
You may not FEEL "like some entitled brat," but your tone sure sounds like it.

Good luck.

[tooswolle]

I think this thread begs the following questions to the op:

1. How did your incoming 1L numbers compare to your cohorts?
2. Did you have previous work experience?

If the numbers were significantly lower that gives credence to the mismatch theory (although it isn't an end all be all, since a few outliers exist)

The second question is more important. If K-JD with no real work experience you can pretty much guess dead in the water. If you had work experience in what field was it?

The OP has only two posts ... Smells like a troll. On the off shoot that it is a real story, it tends to give credit to the sanders study/ mismatch theory that many posit. Now I personally don't agree with them or believe in them but they sure as hell scare me if I'm true. If anything this post should be cautionary for people to study in schools where they are qualified to study. Fortunately for me my numbers are on par with other student numbers. So it'll come down to who gets it better not a mismatch in competencies.

For someone who doesn't believe in the Sander's theories, you seem very eager to establish a correlation.

Fair observation. The only reason I ask is because although I don't believe in the theory, it still scares the hell out of me. My numbers are in the range of accepted students but I wonder if the OP was within range and her lack of success was due to other factors and not academics.

[PDaddy]

Selling! This thread appears to come from someone who is white and trying to discourage URM's from takinbg up seats that he/she (and many other white students) believe would be better filled by whites. are you kidding me? You're trying to convince URM's that top-10 is NOT the way to go because they will wind up unhappy and/or unemployed? So the message must be "don't go into law". Are you friggin' kidding me?!

I have had extensive experience in helping and otherwise dealing with URM applicants and students at top-10 law schools, and absolutely NONE...and I do mean NONE, have experienced the difficulties with job searches OP has. URM's from elite law schools - even those who fall in the lower percentiles of their classes - usually have little trouble getting decent paying law jobs, and those who do are usually so positioned because of poor work habits, poor preparation, and poor interviewing and people skills. Even in this challenged economy, law firms have many positions for URM's because of accelerated URM attrition (for in-house positions, solo practice, government jobs, just plain washing out, etc.)

If this person is in fact a black female, she is an anomaly. Maybe she slipped through the cracks because she had extensive help with essays, etc., and was lucky enough to attend an UG where she was pampered and not really driven to earn her high grades. Maybe her peers and profs quickly discovered by hearing her speak that she clearly was not the person who submitted such a stellar application. Maybe the culture was unsuitable for her, and maybe she would have been better off at Northwestern or GULC. Or maybe she was unqualified for the level of work she confronted at Duke (and would have confronted at any T14), but that surely isn't the case with most URM applicants who wind up at elite law schools.

To every URM out there, as well as any law applicant, I say go to a top-10 if you get in. The advice this person is giving is absolutely backwards.

I am a URM, and I completely understand the level of racism we face at certain schools. Still, this woman gets no sympathy from me. She had a shot at writing her own ticket, and for reasons we will never know, she failed to write, let alone punch it. End of story.

[DukeURMGrad]

i am writing this post because ALOT of my other URM friends are in a similar position--not because i feel like some entitled brat. i graduated with a 2.97. Very low, i know--but it's hard to concentrate when you hear nothing but racist comments in class that are indirectly taking jabs at you and your community. It's not at all about interviewing or grades, IMO. Regardless, I have reached out to many Duke Law alums in my area (2nd biggest legal market) and they have not helped at all. Some did not even respond to my emails. Is this what happens at other schools as well?

Honestly, if indirect comments derail you from your work this easily, you shouldn't be a lawyer.
You may not FEEL "like some entitled brat," but your tone sure sounds like it.

Good luck.

ok, i thought one of the benefits of going to a t14 was to have access to a great/helpful alumni network? if Duke is such a great university, why are they doing NOTHING to help unemployed grads navigate a crazy market? what is the point of a URM going to a t14 school if they can't get help from alumni or professors in the job search? Don't tell me prestige. Duke isn't Harvard, so why take the risk?

I just want to say that a lot of people commenting on the Duke Law experience in class and out ARE NOT URMs--so take it for what it's worth. Yes, i am easily frazzled by comments from the white male patriarchy perspective. Some of my URMS friends didn't like hearing that s*** either. It makes you uncomfortable to sit in class or even want to participate. I guess everyone is different.

I didn't have substantial WE before law school. I understand it makes a difference in the job search, but we all know most URMS are straight from undergrad or only have 1 to 2 years working before they enroll. There were VERY few(1-2) non-traditional students during my time at Duke. Also, I made this point earlier--VERY few t14 URMS have entering stats that match up to the overall class. Don't kid yourself, this applies from Yale on down. It doesn't mean one can't beat the curve, but we are already at an extreme disadvantage when it comes to how grades are distributed.I just want people to be aware of this when they are selecting schools. Finishing at the bottom of any law school DOES NOT LOOK GOOD.This is why I am recommending for people to hedge their bets and take the free ride at their local university--there is a good chance you will end up in the exact same position. Most of my URM friends who did "well" had parents who were lawyers or had some close mentoring relationship with a lawyer to guide them through law school. Not everyone is this fortunate. I don't want to over generalize, but that's just what I noticed.

We can put this thread to rest now. Any URM who wants to talk offline, please private message me and I can give you the low-down on Duke Law and law school in general. I still think you should always go for a free ride unless you can afford. No school is worth the insane debt--even if it's a top 14. don't listen to these TLS people, many of them are either not in law school to begin with or ARE THE EXCEPTION for the URM experience.

[PDaddy]

OP has seven posts. This is a complete flame. Trouble with the job hunt results from failure to understand how the business works and sell exactly why one went into law in the first place. It results from poor interview skills and lack of common sense...not knowing how to comport oneself at a business dinner. It results from lack of maturity.

Miss me with all of this BS, because there are too many examples of law grads (from many different socioeconomic backgrounds) with little or no pre-law work experience who have landed plum jobs - even in this economy. Many did NOT have connections or come from well-to-do families.

At some point, you need to have some "game". Your mouthpiece is the best tool you have when you sit down with a recruiter, and if you are unable to figure that out, you don't deserve a job.

Complaining about your resume is like complaining that you don't look like a model or movie star and thus can't land the hot guy or girl. It's BS!

[sunynp]

i am writing this post because ALOT of my other URM friends are in a similar position--not because i feel like some entitled brat. i graduated with a 2.97. Very low, i know--but it's hard to concentrate when you hear nothing but racist comments in class that are indirectly taking jabs at you and your community. It's not at all about interviewing or grades, IMO. Regardless, I have reached out to many Duke Law alums in my area (2nd biggest legal market) and they have not helped at all. Some did not even respond to my emails. Is this what happens at other schools as well?

Honestly, if indirect comments derail you from your work this easily, you shouldn't be a lawyer.
You may not FEEL "like some entitled brat," but your tone sure sounds like it.

Good luck.

WTF? You posted just to tell her how she should feel, how she should never practice law and how she sounds? Do you enjoy kicking people when they are down?

Personally, I think that people who spend $150,000 or more to get an education and then they can't find a job should be fucking pissed off. It isn't entitlement to expect to find a job. The reality is that there aren't enough jobs. But a person isn't a spoiled brat because the money and the time they invested to prepare for a profession turns out to be a gigantic waste.

Don't forget that when OP started school, employment prospects appeared rosy. People going to school at sticker now don't have the same excuse the OP had. Yet, they are still going.

[sunynp]

OP has seven posts. This is a complete flame.

Why are people so harsh to OP? I didn't quote your above post because it was so long. But, I don't understand this. The economy tanked on her and she probably did her best. Why be so mean? Do people just want to make themselves feel better that it won't (or didn't) happen to them?

Did winning the law school lottery make some people contemptuous to those who lost? If so, why?

[laxbrah420]

You seem drunk, DukeURMGrad. I would hope that a sober Duke graduate would be able to write more coherently.
Either that, or you're a liar.

[shoeshine]

That's the thing that you guys aren't getting. Her story isn't just "anecdotal"--it's actually quite common for URM's who attend a top 14 and get bad grades. The crazy thing about it is how quickly things can change on the curve for a URM. So you said that you don't have top 10 percent grades--well that's not necessary for a URM to come out OK. But the reality is that A LOT of URMS end up at the very bottom of the class--I'm talking 3.0 and below at a top 14. And that's where things can go terribly wrong.

I hate to say this but at my school the URMS at the bottom of the class actually have a better shot at Big Law than white students at median.

Don't get me wrong they both have an okay shot. But depending on the market and the race of the URM, grades really don't matter. That could be very different at other schools but I am just pointing out that if OP went to my school she would have had to make alot of other mistakes outside of grades to really have no opportunities.

[PDaddy]

Maybe OP should not have gone to law school, but he/she has no right to project that onto other URM's. It's ridiculous to tell URM's that they should not go to law school, which is what OP is actually saying by virtue of her story (assuming the story is real).

I don't feel sorry for ANYONE who gets into a school like Duke and can't make it happen career-wise. OP shouldn't expect any sympathy from people here on TLS. There is a long line of other URM's who would have been qualified for her seat but did not get it. There is a REALLY long line of white students who will use her story as an example of why URM's might be generally less qualified for the elite law schools.

She shouldn't expect much sympathy here. I say this as one of the most supportive TLS URM's. I am very sympathetic to the struggles of black students, because I am one. Those of you who know my history here know that I have waved the flag for URM's as much as anyone. But this chick takes the cake for me; I can't get behind her. She sounds like someone who went to law school for the wrong reasons.

She clearly didn't get the memo that getting into law school is the easy part.

To succeed beyond admission, you have to be hungry and you have to have drive...and savvy...and game!

[PDaddy]

That's the thing that you guys aren't getting. Her story isn't just "anecdotal"--it's actually quite common for URM's who attend a top 14 and get bad grades. The crazy thing about it is how quickly things can change on the curve for a URM. So you said that you don't have top 10 percent grades--well that's not necessary for a URM to come out OK. But the reality is that A LOT of URMS end up at the very bottom of the class--I'm talking 3.0 and below at a top 14. And that's where things can go terribly wrong.

I hate to say this but at my school the URMS at the bottom of the class actually have a better shot at Big Law than white students at median.

Don't get me wrong they both have an okay shot. But depending on the market and the race of the URM, grades really don't matter. That could be very different at other schools but I am just pointing out that if OP went to my school she would have had to make alot of other mistakes outside of grades to really have no opportunities.

This story IS anecdotal for T14 URM's. They get jobs. Most URM's from elite law schools have written their own tickets. It's just a matter of punching them. If she couldn't even make the top 50-75%, nobody should feel sorry for her. She had a chance. She needs to find something else to do and run with it. Sounds like an all-around lack of hustle to me.

I will say it until the cows come home. I am selling on this one, and everyone knows that I am the black male rebel around here. I don't feel sorry for OP. She blew her chance this time, but she can make other opportunities if she gets some hustle.

[DukeURMGrad]

Maybe OP should not have gone to law school, but he/she has no right to project that onto other URM's. It's ridiculous to tell URM's that they should not go to law school, which is what OP is actually saying by virtue of her story (assuming the story is real).

I don't feel sorry for ANYONE who gets into a school like Duke and can't make it happen career-wise. OP shouldn't expect any sympathy from people here on TLS. There is a long line of other URM's who would have been qualified for her seat but did not get it. There is a REALLY long line of white students who will use her story as an example of why URM's might be generally less qualified for the elite law schools.

She shouldn't expect much sympathy here. I say this as one of the most supportive TLS URM's. I am very sympathetic to the struggles of black students, because I am one. Those of you who know my history here know that I have waved the flag for URM's as much as anyone. But this chick takes the cake for me; I can't get behind her. She sounds like someone who went to law school for the wrong reasons.

She clearly didn't get the memo that getting into law school is the easy part.

To succeed beyond admission, you have to be hungry and you have to have drive...and savvy...and game!

Why are you lying? Are you in law school? Have you graduated? i am not a flame, this is what I'm experiencing as a Duke JD. I have several other URM friends in the exact same position. You don't know what happens to everyone at every school. No, firms DO NOT HAVE positions just waiting for URMS. YOU ARE PART OF THE F******* PROBLEM!!!!!

[TrialLawyer16]

OP has seven posts. This is a complete flame. Trouble with the job hunt results from failure to understand how the business works and sell exactly why one went into law in the first place. It results from poor interview skills and lack of common sense...not knowing how to comport oneself at a business dinner. It results from lack of maturity.

This was harsh man lmao. I don't know why I pictured Al Sharpton saying this when I was reading it. "Not knowing how to comport oneself at a business dinner"? Lol wow

[LSAT>LDAC]

LOL aren't you at Howard?

Yes.

[shoeshine]

Why are you lying? Are you in law school? Have you graduated? i am not a flame, this is what I'm experiencing as a Duke JD. I have several other URM friends in the exact same position. You don't know what happens to everyone at every school. No, firms DO NOT HAVE positions just waiting for URMS. YOU ARE PART OF THE F******* PROBLEM!!!!!

I know this was in response to P Daddy and I am sure he will reply to this but I want to point out that your experience at one school is not representative of the entire T14.

I am a URM at a T14 and I have found things much easier than what you are describing. It may just be that you became the victim of the recession or that you made several mistakes when applying for jobs. However, all the URMs at my school have had a very easy time finding jobs in Big Law (including me).

I don't know what to tell you other than I have had the complete opposite experience. There seems to be many big law firms that are extremely committed to diversity and are willing to take URMs from my school and other T14s regardless of grades. I am not sure how far deep they go into classes but I have seen some URMs in the bottom quartile get multiple offers at my school.

Edit: One of the reasons everyone is doubting if what you are saying is genuine is because you only have a couple posts on this forum. Experienced posters like P-Daddy and myself have over a thousand posts and have had the opposite experience as you so your anecdote seems suspect.

[Harlyn]

ok, i thought one of the benefits of going to a t14 was to have access to a great/helpful alumni network? if Duke is such a great university, why are they doing NOTHING to help unemployed grads navigate a crazy market? what is the point of a URM going to a t14 school if they can't get help from alumni or professors in the job search? Don't tell me prestige. Duke isn't Harvard, so why take the risk?

I just want to say that a lot of people commenting on the Duke Law experience in class and out ARE NOT URMs--so take it for what it's worth. Yes, i am easily frazzled by comments from the white male patriarchy perspective. Some of my URMS friends didn't like hearing that s*** either. It makes you uncomfortable to sit in class or even want to participate. I guess everyone is different.

I didn't have substantial WE before law school. I understand it makes a difference in the job search, but we all know most URMS are straight from undergrad or only have 1 to 2 years working before they enroll. There were VERY few(1-2) non-traditional students during my time at Duke. Also, I made this point earlier--VERY few t14 URMS have entering stats that match up to the overall class. Don't kid yourself, this applies from Yale on down. It doesn't mean one can't beat the curve, but we are already at an extreme disadvantage when it comes to how grades are distributed.I just want people to be aware of this when they are selecting schools. Finishing at the bottom of any law school DOES NOT LOOK GOOD.This is why I am recommending for people to hedge their bets and take the free ride at their local university--there is a good chance you will end up in the exact same position. Most of my URM friends who did "well" had parents who were lawyers or had some close mentoring relationship with a lawyer to guide them through law school. Not everyone is this fortunate. I don't want to over generalize, but that's just what I noticed.

We can put this thread to rest now. Any URM who wants to talk offline, please private message me and I can give you the low-down on Duke Law and law school in general. I still think you should always go for a free ride unless you can afford. No school is worth the insane debt--even if it's a top 14. don't listen to these TLS people, many of them are either not in law school to begin with or ARE THE EXCEPTION for the URM experience.

You're fucking ridiculous. I can't believe how absurd you are. You constantly make unqualified, unsubstantiated claims based on anecdotal evidence. It must suck to be in your position, it really does. I can't begin to imagine what it must feel like to have a mountain of debt and no way to pay for the debt in the foreseeable future. I want to empathize with you but I can't. I never liked hearing the stupid shit people said about black people and other minorities while attending undergrad but I either ignored or tried to compel the other person to see how ignorant they were. You are too easily frazzled, perhaps that explains why you didn't have what it takes to find a job.

[bk1]

You're fucking ridiculous. I can't believe how absurd you are. You constantly make unqualified, unsubstantiated claims based on anecdotal evidence. It must suck to be in your position, it really does. I can't begin to imagine what it must feel like to have a mountain of debt and no way to pay for the debt in the foreseeable future. I want to empathize with you but I can't. I never liked hearing the stupid shit people said about black people and other minorities while attending undergrad but I either ignored or tried to compel the other person to see how ignorant they were. You are too easily frazzled, perhaps that explains why you didn't have what it takes to find a job.

Even though she seems to be talking out of her ass, she's not entirely wrong.

1. Most URMs are straight through or have 1-2 years WE. That's true, but it's also true of the applicant and matriculant pools generally. In this regard there's no real difference between URMs and everybody else.

2. Few URMs have entering stats match up to the overall class. This might or might not be true. Considering the boosts that URMs get, it's not unreasonable to assume URMs end up choosing a higher ranked school (as opposed to a school they would have gotten in normally but gave them extra money). This would put them at a mismatch with the stats of the general class.

3. Her anecdotes are regarding her friends with parents/mentors. She doesn't actually expand it beyond that so this isn't a general claim.

4. She's right that many TLSers aren't in law school, but I will finally agree with you that the "exception to the URM experience" is unsubstantiated bullshit.

[bk1]

Selling! This thread appears to come from someone who is white and trying to discourage URM's from takinbg up seats that he/she (and many other white students) believe would be better filled by whites. are you kidding me?

Yeah it's this kind of race baiting that isn't gonna stand. See you in a week.

[BruceWayne]

LMAO at a lot of these posts saying that URMS at top 14's can "write their own tickets" and "URMs at the bottom of the class at at a top 14 have about the same amount of difficulty in getting a job as White students at the median". And people are calling the OP a flame?! Unless by "write their own tickets" they mean "if they don't fall into the bottom 1/3 of the class they can get a job". And by "URM's at the bottom of the class at a top 14 have about the same amount of difficulty in getting a job as White students at median" they mean "I go to HYS".

[moonman157]

If you heard nothing but racist comments in class, you obviously weren't paying attention. That explains the bad grades. Sorry but you can't be at the very bottom of your class and blame Duke grads for not doing more to help you find a job. If you think it's the fault of alumni then I don't find it surprising that you're unemployed.

[bk1]

Yeah I'm gonna use my discretion and say we're done here. This thread is just gonna get worse from here.