3.64 black male, chances?

(BLS, URM status, non-traditional, GLBT)
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Nova
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Re: 3.64 black male, chances?

Postby Nova » Mon Jun 11, 2012 1:56 pm

BruceWayne wrote:The "needing to above both medians or one" etc. type stuff does not apply to AA males, especially one's from your sort of background (first generation college etc.) when applying to Harvard and Stanford so ignore it. It is somewhat more relevant for the rest of the top 14 but even there it's not anywhere near as hard nosed a requirement as it is for other types of applicants. As a 3.64 AA male with a 165+ LSAT there is no way you won't get into one of HYS or CCN period.


No where ITT does anyone say OP needs to hit median. Yeah, OP will probably get in somewhere T6 with 165ish. I realize he is asking about minimum requirements, but lets be real. Reinforcing that OP can get in to HYS under both 25th percentiles or CCN under both medians is weak. Keeping one's URM boost in mind while setting your LSAT goal is a bad idea. It allows one to set the bar lower. Im suggesting that OP should shoot for median LSAT to remove all doubt.

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BruceWayne
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Re: 3.64 black male, chances?

Postby BruceWayne » Mon Jun 11, 2012 2:16 pm

Nova wrote:
BruceWayne wrote:The "needing to above both medians or one" etc. type stuff does not apply to AA males, especially one's from your sort of background (first generation college etc.) when applying to Harvard and Stanford so ignore it. It is somewhat more relevant for the rest of the top 14 but even there it's not anywhere near as hard nosed a requirement as it is for other types of applicants. As a 3.64 AA male with a 165+ LSAT there is no way you won't get into one of HYS or CCN period.


No where ITT does anyone say OP needs to hit median. Yeah, OP will probably get in somewhere T6 with 165ish. I realize he is asking about minimum requirements, but lets be real. Reinforcing that OP can get in to HYS under both 25th percentiles or CCN under both medians is weak. Keeping one's URM boost in mind while setting your LSAT goal is a bad idea. It allows one to set the bar lower. Im suggesting that OP should shoot for median LSAT to remove all doubt.



I've heard people say this but in reality it just doesn't work out like that. No one takes the LSAT thinking " I can hit a 175 but I only need a 165 so that's all I'm going to try to do". People just try their best and they get what they are capable of. Telling him that he only needs a 165 is more about letting him know that if he comes back with a score of that number he will be fine and making him aware of his chances. I think what you're referring to is more or less a cute argument that anti affirmative action people like to use to say that URM's etc. don't "work hard enough" because they know they will get a boost. But again, who really takes the LSAT (or any standardized test for that matter) saying "I'm only going to try to get x score even though I have the ability to get y-higher score"?

b33eazy
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Re: 3.64 black male, chances?

Postby b33eazy » Tue Jun 12, 2012 10:18 am

BruceWayne wrote:The "needing to above both medians or one" etc. type stuff does not apply to AA males, especially one's from your sort of background (first generation college etc.) when applying to Harvard and Stanford so ignore it. It is somewhat more relevant for the rest of the top 14 but even there it's not anywhere near as hard nosed a requirement as it is for other types of applicants. As a 3.64 AA male with a 165+ LSAT there is no way you won't get into one of HYS or CCN period.


Thanks. This is what I was interested in. I thought I would hit one of the T6 with a 165 and have heard of other AA males even getting Harvard/Stanford with a slightly lower GPA and a similar LSAT score (sub 3.64 and a 165). So, I was interested in knowing how much my softs and me being a first generation American and first in my family to go to college would help. And it's goodd to hear that it helps. Thank you.

EDIT: And also I agree with BW and others who said something similar: I do plan on trying my hardest to get the highest score I can, obviously. And I am shooting for a 180 and would hope to get in the 170s, so I know I have a strong chance of getting into Harvard.

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Nova
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Re: 3.64 black male, chances?

Postby Nova » Tue Jun 12, 2012 10:30 am

BruceWayne wrote:
1.I've heard people say this but in reality it just doesn't work out like that. No one takes the LSAT thinking " I can hit a 175 but I only need a 165 so that's all I'm going to try to do". People just try their best and they get what they are capable of.

2. Telling him that he only needs a 165 is more about letting him know that if he comes back with a score of that number he will be fine and making him aware of his chances.

3. I think what you're referring to is more or less a cute argument that anti affirmative action people like to use to say that URM's etc. don't "work hard enough" because they know they will get a boost.

4. But again, who really takes the LSAT (or any standardized test for that matter) saying "I'm only going to try to get x score even though I have the ability to get y-higher score"?


1. Many people do not adequately study for the LSAT, and many people set a minimum bar that they do not study beyond

2. Ok. Fine. Thats fair.

3. Give me a break. I am a URM. :roll: :roll: :roll:

4. Again, many people. Improving ones LSAT score is a not so sexy grind. Many people let up when they hit their target.

OP wrote:EDIT: And also I agree with BW and others who said something similar: I do plan on trying my hardest to get the highest score I can, obviously. And I am shooting for a 180 and would hope to get in the 170s, so I know I have a strong chance of getting into Harvard.


Good luck
Last edited by Nova on Thu Jun 14, 2012 9:07 am, edited 2 times in total.

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kwais
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Re: 3.64 black male, chances?

Postby kwais » Tue Jun 12, 2012 10:44 am

just want to take this opportunity to say one more time that the "everyone at the T6 has amazing softs" meme on TLS has got to stop. No they don't. Yale and Stanford are maybe the only schools where this kind of hyperbole is acceptable. First generation American child of single parent with disabled sibling publishing work and starting organization and volunteering for 200 hours is ABSOLUTELY above average. If well done in a PS, these will stand out. Not going to dramatically change the game, but calling them average, especially by 0Ls has just got to stop. Wait til you get to law school and realize just how vanilla this crowd is.

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TrialLawyer16
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Re: 3.64 black male, chances?

Postby TrialLawyer16 » Tue Jun 12, 2012 10:44 am

twentypercentmore wrote:Grats on NYU Jam. Long time in coming, that's for sure. ;)

+1 I just noticed this too. Congratz man, well deserved.

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twenty
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Re: 3.64 black male, chances?

Postby twenty » Tue Jun 12, 2012 12:16 pm

just want to take this opportunity to say one more time that the "everyone at the T6 has amazing softs" meme on TLS has got to stop. No they don't. Yale and Stanford are maybe the only schools where this kind of hyperbole is acceptable. First generation American child of single parent with disabled sibling publishing work and starting organization and volunteering for 200 hours is ABSOLUTELY above average. If well done in a PS, these will stand out. Not going to dramatically change the game, but calling them average, especially by 0Ls has just got to stop. Wait til you get to law school and realize just how vanilla this crowd is.


I agree with this to some end, but I feel like you're attacking a strawman. I doubt anyone here would say that you must have amazing softs to get into CCN -- quite the contrary if you spend any time on LSN. But unless a soft is metaphorically game-changing, it's as viable in the admissions process as any other soft factors. Sure, they'll stand out, but unless you're an Olympic medal winner, you're not going to "jump over" the LSAT/GPA thresholds for these schools.

I have no problem with the idea that OP's softs will be the difference between an acceptance and a waitlist, but unless he was the tank guy at Tiananmen square, it's not going to be the deciding factor over the LSAT.

b33eazy
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Re: 3.64 black male, chances?

Postby b33eazy » Tue Jun 12, 2012 6:34 pm

kwais wrote:just want to take this opportunity to say one more time that the "everyone at the T6 has amazing softs" meme on TLS has got to stop. No they don't. Yale and Stanford are maybe the only schools where this kind of hyperbole is acceptable. First generation American child of single parent with disabled sibling publishing work and starting organization and volunteering for 200 hours is ABSOLUTELY above average. If well done in a PS, these will stand out. Not going to dramatically change the game, but calling them average, especially by 0Ls has just got to stop. Wait til you get to law school and realize just how vanilla this crowd is.


Thanks for the info. That could be a good personal statement, and that could be the difference between being waitlisted and accepted. I also had an upward GPA trend as well.

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kwais
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Re: 3.64 black male, chances?

Postby kwais » Tue Jun 12, 2012 7:07 pm

twentypercentmore wrote:
just want to take this opportunity to say one more time that the "everyone at the T6 has amazing softs" meme on TLS has got to stop. No they don't. Yale and Stanford are maybe the only schools where this kind of hyperbole is acceptable. First generation American child of single parent with disabled sibling publishing work and starting organization and volunteering for 200 hours is ABSOLUTELY above average. If well done in a PS, these will stand out. Not going to dramatically change the game, but calling them average, especially by 0Ls has just got to stop. Wait til you get to law school and realize just how vanilla this crowd is.


I agree with this to some end, but I feel like you're attacking a strawman. I doubt anyone here would say that you must have amazing softs to get into CCN -- quite the contrary if you spend any time on LSN. But unless a soft is metaphorically game-changing, it's as viable in the admissions process as any other soft factors. Sure, they'll stand out, but unless you're an Olympic medal winner, you're not going to "jump over" the LSAT/GPA thresholds for these schools.

I have no problem with the idea that OP's softs will be the difference between an acceptance and a waitlist, but unless he was the tank guy at Tiananmen square, it's not going to be the deciding factor over the LSAT.


I agree with this. I guess I should moderate my statement this way:

1. My real issue is with people saying that softs like these are "average" or that "at this level, everyone has got them." I have no problem with people saying that the softs will not make someone outperform their numbers. However, just as a matter of fact, if softs are above average, they are above average. We are all smart enough to separate the two issues.

2. I think people here do occasionally underestimate how important tie-breakers can be. If a school like Harvard gets 8000 applications, how many of those can we really toss due to woefully inadequate numbers, maybe half? So that leaves a lot of people with whom ties must be broken. LSN is a valuable tool, but remember that right now on LSN, Harvard has 720 listed applicants. There are many poeple who do not know about LSN and there are a lot of stories we don't know. My point, more moderately put, is just that OP has the softs to guard against underperformance, because his story is above average. There are many applicants who cannot say that. Have you guys read some of the personal statements on here from people whose big hook is "when I volunteered at the immigration ngo, I realized..."?

3. Kudos on the Tiananmen reference. Shit made me laugh. That guy would be a lock at Yale.

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BruceWayne
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Re: 3.64 black male, chances?

Postby BruceWayne » Tue Jun 12, 2012 11:00 pm

kwais wrote:just want to take this opportunity to say one more time that the "everyone at the T6 has amazing softs" meme on TLS has got to stop. No they don't. Yale and Stanford are maybe the only schools where this kind of hyperbole is acceptable. First generation American child of single parent with disabled sibling publishing work and starting organization and volunteering for 200 hours is ABSOLUTELY above average. If well done in a PS, these will stand out. Not going to dramatically change the game, but calling them average, especially by 0Ls has just got to stop. Wait til you get to law school and realize just how vanilla this crowd is.


Plus 10000. Frankly, the OP's softs are not average at all. They are definitely more significant than the average top 14 admitted student.

wlee1220
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Re: 3.64 black male, chances?

Postby wlee1220 » Wed Jun 13, 2012 8:16 pm

BruceWayne wrote:
kwais wrote:just want to take this opportunity to say one more time that the "everyone at the T6 has amazing softs" meme on TLS has got to stop. No they don't. Yale and Stanford are maybe the only schools where this kind of hyperbole is acceptable. First generation American child of single parent with disabled sibling publishing work and starting organization and volunteering for 200 hours is ABSOLUTELY above average. If well done in a PS, these will stand out. Not going to dramatically change the game, but calling them average, especially by 0Ls has just got to stop. Wait til you get to law school and realize just how vanilla this crowd is.


Plus 10000. Frankly, the OP's softs are not average at all. They are definitely more significant than the average top 14 admitted student.


Definitely true. I know a URM AA Male with a 3.8, low 160 LSAT and much weaker softs that hit CCN with money to spare. With your softs, if you do what you're supposed to do on the LSAT, you'll be more than fine.

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JamMasterJ
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Re: 3.64 black male, chances?

Postby JamMasterJ » Thu Jun 14, 2012 12:57 am

BruceWayne wrote:
kwais wrote:just want to take this opportunity to say one more time that the "everyone at the T6 has amazing softs" meme on TLS has got to stop. No they don't. Yale and Stanford are maybe the only schools where this kind of hyperbole is acceptable. First generation American child of single parent with disabled sibling publishing work and starting organization and volunteering for 200 hours is ABSOLUTELY above average. If well done in a PS, these will stand out. Not going to dramatically change the game, but calling them average, especially by 0Ls has just got to stop. Wait til you get to law school and realize just how vanilla this crowd is.


Plus 10000. Frankly, the OP's softs are not average at all. They are definitely more significant than the average top 14 admitted student.

seriously. You should see mine :oops: :oops: :oops: :oops:

foolishgirl33
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Great softs, 3.5, 164, AfA, hoping to ed

Postby foolishgirl33 » Fri Sep 14, 2012 2:40 pm

My bf is an AfA male who was WL'd by a top 6 law school on the last cycle having applied very late. GPA 3.5 (math grades brought him down though he redeemed myself with the PhD which sadly doesn't count for law school except as a soft factor which might assure them that he won't drop the ball) from a v good undergrad, 164 LSAT and a PhD. Has he got a prayer for Columbia or NYU e.d.? His life story is extraordinary and inspiring. His softs include 2 books and the constitution of a Pacific Island country.

Please advise us. Sincerely appreciated.

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JamMasterJ
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Re: Great softs, 3.5, 164, AfA, hoping to ed

Postby JamMasterJ » Mon Sep 17, 2012 11:46 am

foolishgirl33 wrote:My bf is an AfA male who was WL'd by a top 6 law school on the last cycle having applied very late. GPA 3.5 (math grades brought him down though he redeemed myself with the PhD which sadly doesn't count for law school except as a soft factor which might assure them that he won't drop the ball) from a v good undergrad, 164 LSAT and a PhD. Has he got a prayer for Columbia or NYU e.d.? His life story is extraordinary and inspiring. His softs include 2 books and the constitution of a Pacific Island country.

Please advise us. Sincerely appreciated.

I know a 3.5/166 that got into NYU with money, but those two extra points might be big. Could he retake?

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BruceWayne
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Re: Great softs, 3.5, 164, AfA, hoping to ed

Postby BruceWayne » Mon Sep 17, 2012 12:19 pm

foolishgirl33 wrote:My bf is an AfA male who was WL'd by a top 6 law school on the last cycle having applied very late. GPA 3.5 (math grades brought him down though he redeemed myself with the PhD which sadly doesn't count for law school except as a soft factor which might assure them that he won't drop the ball) from a v good undergrad, 164 LSAT and a PhD. Has he got a prayer for Columbia or NYU e.d.? His life story is extraordinary and inspiring. His softs include 2 books and the constitution of a Pacific Island country.

Please advise us. Sincerely appreciated.


DO NOT ED anywhere. Just apply earlier this time and he will be fine.




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