Top Law Schools

I just graduated with a Bachelors Degree in Political Science from a regular state school (in the south).. And I would like to know my chances at the Top 6 law schools.. I have a 3.64, 200+ hours of volunteer experience with various organizations, registered mediator, member of various clubs and have been a secretary for a club, and I am also a first generation American (family from Caribbean) and am the first in my family to graduate from college, and I also have siblings with disabilities and raised by a single mother. What LSAT score would I need to have a shot at any of the top 6 law schools (really want H or Columbia, though).

Its fairly safe to say that if you hit whatever schools median LSAT, they will roll out the red carpet for you. If you are under both medians, its a crap shoot.

Lawschoolnumbers.com

Anything in the 160s will get you into at least one of the top 14.

If you get a 165 or better you will probably get into at least one school ranked in the top 6 by US News.

Anything above that and you are guaranteed to get into at least one of Harvard or Stanford.

Yale would probably require a 170 or better.

I would really focus on getting a 166 or higher because then you'll likely be looking at Harvard for close to free (they do need based grants so just getting accepted would mean going for close to free--Stanford does that too--assuming your single mom income is like that of most single moms).

BruceWayne wrote:Anything in the 160s will get you into at least one of the top 14.

If you get a 165 or better you will probably get into at least one school ranked in the top 6 by US News.

Anything above that and you are guaranteed to get into at least one of Harvard or Stanford.

Yale would probably require a 170 or better.

I would really focus on getting a 166 or higher because then you'll likely be looking at Harvard for close to free (they do need based grants so just getting accepted would mean going for close to free--Stanford does that too--assuming your single mom income is like that of most single moms).

God i hope you're right.

OP, lawschoolnumbers and lsp are useful tools.

BruceWayne wrote:Anything in the 160s will get you into at least one of the top 14.

If you get a 165 or better you will probably get into at least one school ranked in the top 6 by US News.

Anything above that and you are guaranteed to get into at least one of Harvard or Stanford.

Yale would probably require a 170 or better.

I would really focus on getting a 166 or higher because then you'll likely be looking at Harvard for close to free (they do need based grants so just getting accepted would mean going for close to free--Stanford does that too--assuming your single mom income is like that of most single moms).

So anything above a 165 so could get me into Harvard with my 3.64 GPA?

Also, my mother works three jobs, so her income is not like most single moms, sadly..

This is not "hit 165 and you're a lock at H". While it is true that there are AA URMs that have gotten into H with a 165 and a slightly worse GPA, there are also AA URMs that have not gotten into H/S with those numbers. There was someone this cycle on TLS that had a significantly better GPA, AA URM, and a 164+ LSAT. Their "planning to attend" school is MVBP with 60k.

(edit: I'm going to qualify this story by mentioning they applied in January. Still.)

As previously stated, if you get above a school's median LSAT, they'll put out the big bucks. Anything else, it's kind of touch and go. If there's ever a time where a single point will make or break a school, it's being a URM with a sub 25th GPA.

twentypercentmore wrote:This is not "hit 165 and you're a lock at H". While it is true that there are AA URMs that have gotten into H with a 165 and a slightly worse GPA, there are also AA URMs that have not gotten into H/S with those numbers. There was someone this cycle on TLS that had a significantly better GPA, AA URM, and a 164+ LSAT. Their "planning to attend" school is MVBP with 60k.

(edit: I'm going to qualify this story by mentioning they applied in January. Still.)

As previously stated, if you get above a school's median LSAT, they'll put out the big bucks. Anything else, it's kind of touch and go. If there's ever a time where a single point will make or break a school, it's being a URM with a sub 25th GPA.

Ok, so I have a shot with a 3.64 and above a 165 at Harvard? I just checked Harvard and Stanford's 25th percentile and it is 3.78 for Harvard and 3.72 for Stanford, so that means that my GPA being below that, that it would be a hit and miss 165 and 166 could make the difference between acceptance and rejection? Could my soft, PS and DS push me over the edge and help me gain admission to Harvard?

Pretty much.

b33eazy wrote:Could my soft, PS and DS push me over the edge and help me gain admission to Harvard?

Your softs will help, and yes, if you're on the edge, they'll push you over. But all that should honestly mean to you is that there's another candidate with your same exact numbers, your softs will be the tiebreaker. I'm sure other posters will say that's a really crude way of looking at softs, but if you go in with that mindset, you're better off than if you go in with a "I don't have to work on the LSAT, because I started a non-profit!" mentality for October.

It's important to have softs and a good PS + DS, though. Just because they're not sufficient doesn't mean they're not required.

twentypercentmore wrote:Pretty much.

b33eazy wrote:Could my soft, PS and DS push me over the edge and help me gain admission to Harvard?

Your softs will help, and yes, if you're on the edge, they'll push you over. But all that should honestly mean to you is that there's another candidate with your same exact numbers, your softs will be the tiebreaker. I'm sure other posters will say that's a really crude way of looking at softs, but if you go in with that mindset, you're better off than if you go in with a "I don't have to work on the LSAT, because I started a non-profit!" mentality for October.

It's important to have softs and a good PS + DS, though. Just because they're not sufficient doesn't mean they're not required.

Would you consider this: "200+ hours of volunteer experience with various organizations, registered mediator, member of various clubs and have been a secretary for a club, and I am also a first generation American (family from Caribbean) and am the first in my family to graduate from college, and I also have siblings with disabilities and raised by a single mother" good softs?

They're about average. I'm sorry, I'm just being honest with you -- the people that apply to CCN/HYS with "good softs" are military officers, political science professors with 10 years of experience, heck, Chen Guangcheng is going to NYU law next year. They'll push you in front of someone with worse softs and the same numbers (i.e, the guy whose "work experience" was collecting checks from fraternity members), but those softs aren't game-changing.

Doing well on the LSAT is going to get you a lot further than any softs will, that's for sure.

You have a decent chance, but don't just count on URM status.

Buy the Powerscore Bibles, buy Superprep, and buy every single PT. PM me if you need help knowing what to buy.

Study hard until October or whenever you are taking it, earn a 165+ score or a 170+ score, and you are golden.

^ Thanks. That sounds good to hear. Also, I forgot to mention that I have been on an upward trend: started sub 2.0 and turned that around to 3.75+ every semester up until graduation. I also was in a near fatal accident (that started the upward trend).

b33eazy wrote:^ Thanks. That sounds good to hear. Also, I forgot to mention that I have been on an upward trend: started sub 2.0 and turned that around to 3.75+ every semester up until graduation. I also was in a near fatal accident (that started the upward trend).

I think upward trends help a bit, but not too much. Honestly prepare for the LSAT and then ask about your chances. It is a crapshoot until we know your LSAT.

Good luck man!

Also, I am in the process with founding a non-profit with a former classmate and am getting a paper published.. Would those two softs be a dramatically enhancer to my application?

It depends. Has the non-profit cured cancer/ended poverty in the US/saved a village in Somolia?

If not, no, not really.

twentypercentmore wrote:It depends. Has the non-profit cured cancer/ended poverty in the US/saved a village in Somolia?

If not, no, not really.

It is an international non-profit that gives aid to poor children in Jamaica (from is from there). Also, my professor is helping me get a paper that I wrote about institutional racism get published. Are those not notable softs?

b33eazy wrote:

twentypercentmore wrote:It depends. Has the non-profit cured cancer/ended poverty in the US/saved a village in Somolia?

If not, no, not really.

It is an international non-profit that gives aid to poor children in Jamaica (from is from there). Also, my professor is helping me get a paper that I wrote about institutional racism get published. Are those not notable softs?

They are fine, and you should include them in your application, but theyre not that special. At this level, everyone has notable softs. They cancel out. Numbers matter more. Your GPA is relatively good, but its shit if we are talking T6. Give the adcomms a numerical reason to admit you. Score median or above on the LSAT.

I'm sorry if I came across as a jackass. OP, with a 162~, you might get into Columbia. Heck, with a 168, you might not get into Columbia. Now, you can look at that however you want. You can justify it in your mind by saying "hey, there are always people that get in with insanely low numbers, and there's no reason I'm not that guy." And who knows, maybe you are. Maybe you can float by on those softs and a well-written DS.

If I were to make a prediction, I'd say you'll do that, apply, and you'll (probably) get dinged at CCN/HYS, but you'll get lots of money from Cornell, GULC, and maybe even Duke/Michigan. People on the forums will tell you how you're never supposed to turn down a full ride anywhere, especially with those numbers, so you'll take the money from GULC (etc.) and have a fabulous law career with almost no debt.

Or you can spend your summer working your ass off on the LSAT and take it once you're PTing around 170. Once you hit 170, you're looking at a near-certainty CCN with lots of money, and maybe even H.

I get that you don't want to hear the get a 170 or bust routine. So if you really think you're in the bag for CCN based on a sub-168~ score, don't retake it. At the end of the day, money at the lower T14 is definitely not a bad place to be.

That's interesting because I haven't found any URM, specifically black male, who had above a 3.5 and at least a 165, get at least one T6 on here or lawschoolnumbers who didn't at least get one.. I was more interested in knowing how good my softs what I needed to get a shot at Harvard and it is a 170. Also, I wanted to know if my softs were strong enough to aid my LSAT score and GPA. Thanks.. I guess I need to hit the books and score as high as possible.

any school where you hit the median will probably give you a full ride. I'm a white male with a lower gpa and got a T6 with almost a 1/2 ride scholly

Grats on NYU Jam. Long time in coming, that's for sure. ;)

twentypercentmore wrote:Grats on NYU Jam. Long time in coming, that's for sure.

First of all, let me say that I don't really understand these types of posts. I know the LSAT is hard and that studying can be stressful. But you should be trying to get as close to a perfect score as you can instead of settling for what will be sufficient to do the job. The higher your score, the better your chances at getting money and the highest-level acceptances you've said you want. Your mindset should be less "what LSAT score do I need to get x,y, and z acceptances" and more "how can I bust my ass to get in the 170s and have schools begging me to attend." Worry about whether the score you have is high enough AFTER you take the test, not before.

That said, I think that a 170+ score should make you a very competitive candidate for HYS. Yale is iffier because of GPA (they seem to rarely to take anyone with much below a 3.7 regardless of other factors), but I think it's worth applying and crossing your fingers that they love your app.

As for the rest of the T14, I think above 165 should get you in with $$.

Also, you're going to have to make sure your resume and personal statement are top notch even if you knock the LSAT out the park... Good luck!

amc987 wrote:First of all, let me say that I don't really understand these types of posts. I know the LSAT is hard and that studying can be stressful. But you should be trying to get as close to a perfect score as you can instead of settling for what will be sufficient to do the job. The higher your score, the better your chances at getting money and the highest-level acceptances you've said you want. Your mindset should be less "what LSAT score do I need to get x,y, and z acceptances" and more "how can I bust my ass to get in the 170s and have schools begging me to attend." Worry about whether the score you have is high enough AFTER you take the test, not before.

That said, I think that a 170+ score should make you a very competitive candidate for HYS. Yale is iffier because of GPA (they seem to rarely to take anyone with much below a 3.7 regardless of other factors), but I think it's worth applying and crossing your fingers that they love your app.

As for the rest of the T14, I think above 165 should get you in with $$.

Also, you're going to have to make sure your resume and personal statement are top notch even if you knock the LSAT out the park... Good luck!

OP didn't ask whether he should try to score 180 or 165. He simply asked what score would be requisite for X schools. Major difference. That's like picking a law school and not worrying about whether you could get biglaw from median or whatever. It doesn't mean you're trying to set a lower bar; just trying to figure out where certain scores will put him.

The "needing to above both medians or one" etc. type stuff does not apply to AA males, especially one's from your sort of background (first generation college etc.) when applying to Harvard and Stanford so ignore it. It is somewhat more relevant for the rest of the top 14 but even there it's not anywhere near as hard nosed a requirement as it is for other types of applicants. As a 3.64 AA male with a 165+ LSAT there is no way you won't get into one of HYS or CCN period.