Texas Southern University Thurgood Marshall School of Law Forum

[utlaw2007]

And the attrition rate for UT Law students is like 2%. So saying a significant amount of students dropping out is "just law school" is an entirely inaccurate statement. I would seriously question the quality of the legal education if a large portion of the students were not committed enough to tough it out or were not competent enough, in a legal sense, to prevent their flunking out.

I know what I say sounds elitist as heck, but it's true. And you can't deny truth.

[utlaw2007]

In case anyone is wondering, I personally don't think a quality legal education can be had at a T3 or T4 school. I only applied to Texas (my first choice along with Michigan, my undergrad, Go Blue!), T1 and T2 schools. Keep in mind that job prospects were much better when I applied for 2004-05 school year. My opinion about the educational quality is just that, an opinion. But it is based off the competency of lawyers that I have interacted with in the profession. Don't get me wrong, there are exceptions, but those lawyers are just that, exceptions. Again, these are my personal observations so these findings are far from scientific. But I think they are a tad bit telling.

[TheProsecutor]

TSU is one of the lowest ranked law schools in the country. If your on their waitlist Im guessing you scored under 150. You really need to consider retaking the LSAT. Anybody can prep into a higher percentile with practice.

Retake and try your hardest to get into Tech or STCL.

I have respect for this school for the fact that they give students who otherwise would not have had an opportunity to attend law school a means to their end. Just because someone doesn't score above a 150 on the lsat doesn't mean they are not smart enough to attend law school. I personally believe that its up to the individual to market themselves once they obtain a JD. I respect your response and appreciate your opinion. Thank you for the feedback!

I'm not sure why you would respect a school for that. There's always been a black market for goods for people that cannot afford the authentic thing. The thing to remember is that all of these goods are inferior. TSU is a school that markets itself to students who DESPERATELY want to become attorneys. They take your money, give you a degree and the rest is up to you.

Marketing yourself once you've obtained your J.D., as you suggest is way to late. The lucrative jobs are snagged by people in the fall of their 2L year. Most reputable employers will not even interview, much less hire, recent law grads.

If the school were free and you had three years to spare, then I would get the degree barring other options. Otherwise, retake the LSAT and get into a school that will give you some sort of future in the profession. What good is a J.D. if you ain't practicing law?

[jpenaonline]

I'm not sure why you would respect a school for that. There's always been a black market for goods for people that cannot afford the authentic thing. The thing to remember is that all of these goods are inferior.

A legal education is a service, not a good.

[Nova]

I'm not sure why you would respect a school for that. There's always been a black market for goods for people that cannot afford the authentic thing. The thing to remember is that all of these goods are inferior.

A legal education is a service, not a good.

The broader point still stands. Just accept the analogy. But if you want to nitpick, a JD could be considered a good.

[TheProsecutor]

I'm not sure why you would respect a school for that. There's always been a black market for goods for people that cannot afford the authentic thing. The thing to remember is that all of these goods are inferior.

A legal education is a service, not a good.

Obviously we're talking about the accumulation of a degree (good), not the actual classroom time (service).

[jpenaonline]

I'm not sure why you would respect a school for that. There's always been a black market for goods for people that cannot afford the authentic thing. The thing to remember is that all of these goods are inferior.

A legal education is a service, not a good.

Obviously we're talking about the accumulation of a degree (good), not the actual classroom time (service).

We can "nitpick" all day about the bad logic in your hideous comment, but there is nothing obvious about it. Black market...authenticity...inferior goods. Seriously? Because many of the TMSL bashing comments that I see on this discussion board make horrible assumptions, such as where applicants intend to study law and what they intend to practice, I'll offer some more practical advice. With any significant investment, it's important to have a strategic plan. That plan should AT THE VERY LEAST note where and how you intend to leverage your JD; otherwise, you're not ready to choose a law school.

For example, if you want to practice "big law" in Houston, then I’d encourage you not to attend TMSL. I’ll use myself as another example. I’m established in a field that experiences a lot of regulatory penalties, and over the past few years I spent a lot of money on legal—enough to justify pursuing my own legal education. MY strategic plan, therefore, entails acquiring a JD to better manage my firm and to reduce legal costs. My decision process assigned a higher weight to tuition costs.

[TheProsecutor]

I'm not sure why you would respect a school for that. There's always been a black market for goods for people that cannot afford the authentic thing. The thing to remember is that all of these goods are inferior.

A legal education is a service, not a good.

Obviously we're talking about the accumulation of a degree (good), not the actual classroom time (service).

We can "nitpick" all day about the bad logic in your hideous comment, but there is nothing obvious about it. Black market...authenticity...inferior goods. Seriously? Because many of the TMSL bashing comments that I see on this discussion board make horrible assumptions, such as where applicants intend to study law and what they intend to practice, I'll offer some more practical advice. With any significant investment, it's important to have a strategic plan. That plan should AT THE VERY LEAST note where and how you intend to leverage your JD; otherwise, you're not ready to choose a law school.

For example, if you want to practice "big law" in Houston, then I’d encourage you not to attend TMSL. I’ll use myself as another example. I’m established in a field that experiences a lot of regulatory penalties, and over the past few years I spent a lot of money on legal—enough to justify pursuing my own legal education. MY strategic plan, therefore, entails acquiring a JD to better manage my firm and to reduce legal costs. My decision process assigned a higher weight to tuition costs.

Since your brain cannot comprehend simple econ (i.e., the bum on the street offering you Oakleys when you can't afford it in the Department Store), then let's just say there's a market for J.D's where impressionable potential law students pay a ton of real money for an almost worthless degrees. And not worthless in the sense of "I can't practice law," but worthless in the sense of "nobody in their right mind would hire me to practice law."

You think a J.D. from TMSL is NOT inferior to a school that um, you know, actually let's its 1st year students get to 2L or a school that um, actually allows students to be employed as lawyers when they graduate?

And your strategic plan sounds terrific! You are going to law school so that you won't have to hire an attorney to do your legal work on regulatory issues. Genius move, bro. You do know that after you go to law school, you're not going to magically know how to do any regulatory work. You probably should work somewhere to get training on how to do it correctly. But no, in your mind, you think wasting three years in law school is a good idea. Yup. Definitely TMSL material.

[jpenaonline]

Since your brain cannot comprehend simple econ...um...um..bro.

What are you, 12? I can't argue with you. You win.

Kamaya, it's obvious on this discussion board that the negative perception of TMSL is real. But in other places like where I live, there's a lot of small town case work, so no one really asks or cares where you go to law school. In fact, TMSL graduates are abundant in my legal community. More importantly, most of the individuals outside of the legal profession (e.g., clients) don't know the difference from one law school to the next, and a lot of them don't care, either. The case may be the same where you live (or plan to live). The best way to find out is to ask the attorneys that are there.

Revisiting the gist of my advice (absent any "incomprehensible economic" examples): have a plan BEFORE you pick a school, then weigh your decision based on your plan.

[Ludo!]

I'm sure that there are TMSL people that get jobs and for the kind of work they do clients don't care where they went to school. But the statistics show that an abundant amount also wind up unemployed. It's irresponsible of you to encourage people to go to this school without acknowledging how poor the job prospects are.

[jpenaonline]

I'm sure that there are TMSL people that get jobs and for the kind of work they do clients don't care where they went to school. But the statistics show that an abundant amount also wind up unemployed. It's irresponsible of you to encourage people to go to this school without acknowledging how poor the job prospects are.

Ludovico, I'm from South Texas. Our closest law school is in San Antonio. TMSL students do not have poor job prospects here, then again, not a lot of law students choose to come back to South Texas anyway.

[Nova]

I'm sure that there are TMSL people that get jobs and for the kind of work they do clients don't care where they went to school. But the statistics show that an abundant amount also wind up unemployed. It's irresponsible of you to encourage people to go to this school without acknowledging how poor the job prospects are.

Ludovico, I'm from South Texas. Our closest law school is in San Antonio. TMSL students do not have poor job prospects here, then again, not a lot of law students choose to come back to South Texas anyway.

class of 2010,

•50.7% of graduates were known employed in full-time legal jobs. This figure includes an unknown number of temporary jobs and school-funded jobs.
•64.1% graduates were employed in long-term jobs.
•59.2% graduates were employed in full-time jobs.

a 50/50 shot at practicing law is VERY BAD.

--LinkRemoved--

[Ludo!]

I'm sure that there are TMSL people that get jobs and for the kind of work they do clients don't care where they went to school. But the statistics show that an abundant amount also wind up unemployed. It's irresponsible of you to encourage people to go to this school without acknowledging how poor the job prospects are.

Ludovico, I'm from South Texas. Our closest law school is in San Antonio. TMSL students do not have poor job prospects here, then again, not a lot of law students choose to come back to South Texas anyway.

50/50 is poor bro. You're talking about people you see in the community with jobs. We're talking about statistics that show there are a lot of unemployed grads that you're not mentioning

[jpenaonline]

I'm sure that there are TMSL people that get jobs and for the kind of work they do clients don't care where they went to school. But the statistics show that an abundant amount also wind up unemployed. It's irresponsible of you to encourage people to go to this school without acknowledging how poor the job prospects are.

Ludovico, I'm from South Texas. Our closest law school is in San Antonio. TMSL students do not have poor job prospects here, then again, not a lot of law students choose to come back to South Texas anyway.

50/50 is poor bro. You're talking about people you see in the community with jobs. We're talking about statistics that show there are a lot of unemployed grads that you're not mentioning

I agree. That is a bad statistic. I wish I knew where most of them are trying to find jobs.

[SaintsTheMetal]

I'm surprised no one has called this Kumaya guy out on being a FLAME yet.. He has been posting about how getting a JD will such an accomplishment for months, urging others to go to TTTTs for nothing but the satisfaction of graduating with a Juris Doctorate.

[fprewitt]

It's July 09, 2012...Has anyone on the Thurgood Marshall waitlist been notified of acceptance?
If not, does anyone know when the waitlist will start "moving?"

[Nova]

It's July 09, 2012...Has anyone on the Thurgood Marshall waitlist been notified of acceptance?
If not, does anyone know when the waitlist will start "moving?"

Really? its the 10th where I am.

This should help, http://top-law-schools.com/forums/viewt ... ?f=6&t=396

[Nova]

I'm surprised no one has called this Kumaya guy out on being a FLAME yet.. He has been posting about how getting a JD will such an accomplishment for months, urging others to go to TTTTs for nothing but the satisfaction of graduating with a Juris Doctorate.

Its because he could easily be a real person. MANY people score between 145-150 on the test. They are very real people, and they all need to retake.

[jpenaonline]

I'm not sure why you would respect a school for that. There's always been a black market for goods for people that cannot afford the authentic thing. The thing to remember is that all of these goods are inferior.

A legal education is a service, not a good.

Obviously we're talking about the accumulation of a degree (good), not the actual classroom time (service).

We can "nitpick" all day about the bad logic in your hideous comment, but there is nothing obvious about it. Black market...authenticity...inferior goods. Seriously? Because many of the TMSL bashing comments that I see on this discussion board make horrible assumptions, such as where applicants intend to study law and what they intend to practice, I'll offer some more practical advice. With any significant investment, it's important to have a strategic plan. That plan should AT THE VERY LEAST note where and how you intend to leverage your JD; otherwise, you're not ready to choose a law school.

For example, if you want to practice "big law" in Houston, then I’d encourage you not to attend TMSL. I’ll use myself as another example. I’m established in a field that experiences a lot of regulatory penalties, and over the past few years I spent a lot of money on legal—enough to justify pursuing my own legal education. MY strategic plan, therefore, entails acquiring a JD to better manage my firm and to reduce legal costs. My decision process assigned a higher weight to tuition costs.

I promised myself I would come back to this thread, because I knew I'd be glad I didn't listen to all of the hideous opinions about TMSL when I was choosing a law school. The school was affordable, I graduated last May, and I passed the July bar (first time taker). Also, I was hired by a Houston-based law firm. As a bonus, I abated a $160,000 administrative penalty against one of my businesses last week. (The amount was due in December.) I believe that more than paid off my law school education. Let me know how your crow tastes. -Jay Peña, J.D., M.B.A.

[Ron Don Volante]

this should be good

[Ron Don Volante]

loling so hard at your linkedin pic

[Sheriff]

I promised myself I would come back to this thread, because I knew I'd be glad I didn't listen to all of the hideous opinions about TMSL when I was choosing a law school. The school was affordable, I graduated last May, and I passed the July bar (first time taker). Also, I was hired by a Houston-based law firm. As a bonus, I abated a $160,000 administrative penalty against one of my businesses last week. (The amount was due in December.) I believe that more than paid off my law school education. Let me know how your crow tastes. -Jay Peña, J.D., M.B.A.

If you want to know how crow tastes you should ask your classmates, since they're probably literally eating crow to survive considering only 34% of TTTTSU graduates (you know, the "lucky" ones who didn't flunk out) actually got jobs as attorneys:

http://www.lstscorereports.com/schools/ ... hern/2013/

e: It is also worth noting that not a single grad got big law or a fed clerkship. Why go to a school where even the valedictorian doesn't have a good outcome?

[BankruptMe]

in

[Cicero76]

Thread necros are rarely so beautiful.

[Doritos]

I promised myself I would come back to this thread, because I knew I'd be glad I didn't listen to all of the hideous opinions about TMSL when I was choosing a law school. The school was affordable, I graduated last May, and I passed the July bar (first time taker). Also, I was hired by a Houston-based law firm. As a bonus, I abated a $160,000 administrative penalty against one of my businesses last week. (The amount was due in December.) I believe that more than paid off my law school education. Let me know how your crow tastes. -Jay Peña, J.D., M.B.A.

Affordable? LST (http://www.lstscorereports.com/schools/ ... osts/2013/) tells me that tuition is between $54,000-$70,000 depending on residency. Throw in an extra 50k for cost of living and you are north of 100k in debt to get a JD that gives you a 50/50 shot at even practicing law. I'm glad you got this abatement or whatever but this doesn't change my opinion of the snake oil this school is selling.

How are your classmates doing? Gainfully employed? Check out the student loan calculator (http://www.finaid.org/calculators/loanpayments.phtml). It says for $100,000 in student loan debt you need $138,000 to comfortably pay it back. $92,000 is pushing it. How many of your classmates are clearing that?