Top Law Schools

First and foremost I would like to thank you guys for all of the help that you have given me so far. I really appreciate it.

Recently I have been doing research on URM status. I am still unable to truly understand its benefits. I hope you guys can help me.

1. So you guys say URM status is applied to Mexicans, Puerto Ricans, Native Americans and African Americans. I certainly don't mean to start a flame war or a competition but I would like to know if any of the aforementioned groups is especially favored? I ask because my law advisor told me this is in an email "...There are minorities and then there are 'super' minorities. Take a Mexican male with 3.0/160 and an African American male with a 3.0/160; the African American would almost certainly get more offers and consideration."

2. How exactly is the URM 'boost" given? Is it added on a person GPA or LSAT score? What exactly does it mean?

3. I am AA. How should I deal with GPA floors? Can a URM student apply to school even if their GPA is below the 25th percentile? Can you give me any examples where a URM student has been admitted below a GPA floor?

Bmarce wrote:First and foremost I would like to thank you guys for all of the help that you have given me so far. I really appreciate it.

Recently I have been doing research on URM status. I am still unable to truly understand its benefits. I hope you guys can help me.

1. So you guys say URM status is applied to Mexicans, Puerto Ricans, Native Americans and African Americans. I certainly don't mean to start a flame war or a competition but I would like to know if any of the aforementioned groups is especially favored? I ask because my law advisor told me this is in an email "...There are minorities and then there are 'super' minorities. Take a Mexican male with 3.0/160 and an African American male with a 3.0/160; the African American would almost certainly get more offers and consideration."

2. How exactly is the URM 'boost" given? Is it added on a person GPA or LSAT score? What exactly does it mean?

3. I am AA. How should I deal with GPA floors? Can a URM student apply to school even if their GPA is below the 25th percentile? Can you give me any examples where a URM student has been admitted below a GPA floor?

1 - Your advisor is correct. the boost that you as an AA male receive is greater than the boos that a Mexican male receives, and even greater than the boost to an AA female. AA male is probably the most significant "boost" of all URM boosts.
2 - I don't know exactly how it is dealt with other than that not all adcomms deal with it the same way. It seems like if you're gpa is close to median and your LSAT is a few points below, you would be treated similarly to a white or asian applicant. It is probably affected by the need for more students of certain races. Say a school has half the number of black students that it usually admits. They will probably push harder than a school with a relatively strong number of black students. I'm not sure if this last bit is accurate, but it seems to be the case.
3 - Some schools have soft floors and some have hard floors, but neither seems to apply to URMs as strongly as it does to white applicants. For instance, Harvard is known to have a pretty hard 3.7 floor for white applicants. However, a black student with a 3.6 and a strong LSAT score could have a good shot at getting in. The schools just don't enforce the floor as much with URM's as with whites and asians. I think that you have a shot at schools with a gpa below the 25%ile, especially with a strong LSAT score.

Bmarce wrote:First and foremost I would like to thank you guys for all of the help that you have given me so far. I really appreciate it.

Recently I have been doing research on URM status. I am still unable to truly understand its benefits. I hope you guys can help me.

1. So you guys say URM status is applied to Mexicans, Puerto Ricans, Native Americans and African Americans. I certainly don't mean to start a flame war or a competition but I would like to know if any of the aforementioned groups is especially favored? I ask because my law advisor told me this is in an email "...There are minorities and then there are 'super' minorities. Take a Mexican male with 3.0/160 and an African American male with a 3.0/160; the African American would almost certainly get more offers and consideration."

2. How exactly is the URM 'boost" given? Is it added on a person GPA or LSAT score? What exactly does it mean?

3. I am AA. How should I deal with GPA floors? Can a URM student apply to school even if their GPA is below the 25th percentile? Can you give me any examples where a URM student has been admitted below a GPA floor?

URM cycles are generally more subject to unpredictability, but take heart!

Check out this website: http://lawschoolnumbers.com/

There are tons of examples of URMs accepted to schools where they might not necessarily adhere to the "GPA floor." You'll notice that those students typically have an insane LSAT score. Lawschoolmonkey comes to mind. He had a 3.3 GPA with a 179 LSAT and was accepted to Harvard and other top schools. However, schools tend to prefer URMs with high GPAs and low LSATs than vice versa. As an AA male you will receive a significant "boost" (a practice where adcoms will add points to your numbers) however, you will receive a greater boost for your LSAT score than your GPA. The rule of thumb is to apply everywhere and if you're still in school, maximize that GPA. No matter what your circumstance, you should aim for a high LSAT score.

I highly recommend using the search function to find out more about this stuff. Apologies for the poorly written response, it's late where I am.

How trustworthy are the numbers on that site?

I have another question about gpa floors for URM's.

Take the university of florida. Its ranked somewhere in the mid to high 40's every year. Its median gpa is 3.67 and its median Lsat is 161. When I graduate my gpa will be around 3.37. In order to have a chance to get in, would I need to exceed the median on the Lsat to make up for my gpa?

Bmarce wrote:How trustworthy are the numbers on that site?

I have another question about gpa floors for URM's.

Take the university of florida. Its ranked somewhere in the mid to high 40's every year. Its median gpa is 3.67 and its median Lsat is 161. When I graduate my gpa will be around 3.37. In order to have a chance to get in, would I need to exceed the median on the Lsat to make up for my gpa?

Hello and welcome. I am an AA male and I started being active on this site about a year ago. There are plenty of people with tons of great advice on here. I think you'll find it to be a valuable resource.

Now. I would suggest trying to stay above the 25th percentile on GPA and LSAT. The wisdom I have heard thrown around is that being an AA male will add about 8 points to your LSAT. Personally, I am above the 25th percentile on both my LSAT and GPA with a great personal statement, work experience and a meteoric upwards grade trend. That is to say, I don't know how much of my good cycle was due to a URM bump, and how much of it was due to adcomms liking my application. My advice is to start studying for the LSAT now and put in at least 15 hours a week until you take the test (when are you going to take it?), then devote a ton of time to your personal statement. It will pay off. If you have any more questions, feel free to ask.

lisjjen wrote:

Bmarce wrote:How trustworthy are the numbers on that site?

I have another question about gpa floors for URM's.

Take the university of florida. Its ranked somewhere in the mid to high 40's every year. Its median gpa is 3.67 and its median Lsat is 161. When I graduate my gpa will be around 3.37. In order to have a chance to get in, would I need to exceed the median on the Lsat to make up for my gpa?

Hello and welcome. I am an AA male and I started being active on this site about a year ago. There are plenty of people with tons of great advice on here. I think you'll find it to be a valuable resource.

Now. I would suggest trying to stay above the 25th percentile on GPA and LSAT. The wisdom I have heard thrown around is that being an AA male will add about 8 points to your LSAT. Personally, I am above the 25th percentile on both my LSAT and GPA with a great personal statement, work experience and a meteoric upwards grade trend. That is to say, I don't know how much of my good cycle was due to a URM bump, and how much of it was due to adcomms liking my application. My advice is to start studying for the LSAT now and put in at least 15 hours a week until you take the test (when are you going to take it?), then devote a ton of time to your personal statement. It will pay off. If you have any more questions, feel free to ask.

Thanks for the reply.

Exactly what were your stats and where did you get in? (You can PM me if you want)

I plan to take the test in October.(any tips for studying?)

As of now, I am just trying to guage the effect of the URM boost.

What is your opinion of the example I gave regarding the university of florida?

URM boosts don't work on a linear scale. That is, one school may effectively give you a 3 pt boost while another go as far as give you 8, depending on the particular needs of the school and their respective push for diversity.

Use LSN as a generally guide of what your chances may be, but understand that the sample space that LSN draws from is self-selected and tends to have a positive bias. It will however tell you if the school does in fact implement any form of GPA floor.

No one will be able to answer your question about Florida, specifically since URM splitters tend to work outside of the range and scope of logistic calculators (LSP and relatively only a small number are sampled to provide any useful information on LSN.

With that said, this guy had a below median GPA and an above median LSAT and was admitted with money to boot. He also got into Vanderbilt; so aim high.

OP, check out this thread....

http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 4&t=154356


These numbers are all from the past cycle, and you should find it very informative.

Good luck!

ETA: Take LSP with a grain of salt. It's not that accurate for URMs.

3.0/170 AA male is going to a T14
4.0/160 AA male is going to a T14

There seems to be an upper 150s floor for the LSAT and a very high 2.8-2.9ish floor for the GPA in regards to AA males.

Ideally you would like to be the 172/3.9 going to Yale, but you can have an excellent cycle with a lower GPA/LSAT. Obvious advice would be to just keep your GPA up as high as possible and crush the LSAT.

The closer your LSAT is to 160, the higher GPA you will need.
Similarly, the closer your GPA is to 3.0, the higher LSAT you will need (170+).

Feel free to PM OP for more details. I am an AA male who just finished his cycle and witnessed the boost first hand.

It also helps to make the rest of your application strong. I put a lot of time into my essays and had them edited/proofread by numerous people, and as an AA female I got into a number of schools that I was at or below the 25th on both GPA and LSAT. So put the time into all components of your application, and don't be afraid to aim high (while keeping reasonable expectations, of course ).

There is a ton of info on this forum for AA URM boosts, but relatively little for MA's. Mexican American Male here... Can anyone weigh in on gpa/lsat floors @ T14 for us?

boosk wrote:There is a ton of info on this forum for AA URM boosts, but relatively little for MA's. Mexican American Male here... Can anyone weigh in on gpa/lsat floors @ T14 for us?

Get a 170 and a 3.6+ and you're probably in everywhere save Yale.

A 167+ and a median GPA will get you Top 6

A 165+ and a median GPA will land you somewhere in the top 10.

I would say a 163 is the lowest you can hope for and still have a reasonable chance at T14, assuming you have above 75th GPA.

There's not really an exact science to this, but PM me if you'd like to know anything specific. Also, apply to all the T14...regardless if you don't think you have a chance at a school--this is my biggest regret.

law_monkey wrote:It also helps to make the rest of your application strong. I put a lot of time into my essays and had them edited/proofread by numerous people, and as an AA female I got into a number of schools that I was at or below the 25th on both GPA and LSAT. So put the time into all components of your application, and don't be afraid to aim high (while keeping reasonable expectations, of course ).

+1

Thank god my friends and family are so patient with me, because I obsessed over my app every single day last summer.

This may or may not help, but I am an AA female 3.8/150 obviously very low LSAT score BUT had a very strong application otherwise with an amazing personal statement. And just to be clear I have no connections at any of these schools.

University of Florida - In
University of Miami - In
Florida State - Waitlist
Stetson - In
University of San Francisco
Penn State - In with Scholly
University of Georgia - Waitlist
Mississippi - In with full Scholly
Washington and Lee - Waitlist
Georgia State - Denied
Georgetown - Denied

I decided to attend UF in the fall. Hope this helps.

mcecilia2489 wrote:This may or may not help, but I am an AA female 3.8/150 obviously very low LSAT score BUT had a very strong application otherwise with an amazing personal statement. And just to be clear I have no connections at any of these schools.

University of Florida - In
University of Miami - In
Florida State - Waitlist
Stetson - In
University of San Francisco
Penn State - In with Scholly
University of Georgia - Waitlist
Mississippi - In with full Scholly
Washington and Lee - Waitlist
Georgia State - Denied
Georgetown - Denied

I decided to attend UF in the fall. Hope this helps.

I'm happy for your decision...but, and I know you may not want to hear this but I think you should retake the LSAT. Getting a 160 is really not too difficult if you put the time in...and your LS admissions prospects would have changed DRASTICALLY if you actually reach a 160. Though UF is decent, if you had a 160, or even scored a 158 or 159, you probably would have cracked the T14 with that GPA.

GAIAtheCHEERLEADER wrote:

mcecilia2489 wrote:This may or may not help, but I am an AA female 3.8/150 obviously very low LSAT score BUT had a very strong application otherwise with an amazing personal statement. And just to be clear I have no connections at any of these schools.

University of Florida - In
University of Miami - In
Florida State - Waitlist
Stetson - In
University of San Francisco
Penn State - In with Scholly
University of Georgia - Waitlist
Mississippi - In with full Scholly
Washington and Lee - Waitlist
Georgia State - Denied
Georgetown - Denied

I decided to attend UF in the fall. Hope this helps.

I'm happy for your decision...but, and I know you may not want to hear this but I think you should retake the LSAT. Getting a 160 is really not too difficult if you put the time in...and your LS admissions prospects would have changed DRASTICALLY if you actually reach a 160. Though UF is decent, if you had a 160, or even scored a 158 or 159, you probably would have cracked the T14 with that GPA.

Thank you!! And I really appreciate your advice. I would probably take it over but I have already improved my score 6 points from what it was...0_o...(I took my first test in Oct. and did EXTRA TERRIBLE and second in December) I am not a very good test taker so I think I am better off doing well at UF (top 5%) and transferring into a T14 than taking the LSAT again! I doubt I would do that though anyway, I am from Florida so I'm very comfortable with my decision to attend Levin.

Bmarce wrote:First and foremost I would like to thank you guys for all of the help that you have given me so far. I really appreciate it.

Recently I have been doing research on URM status. I am still unable to truly understand its benefits. I hope you guys can help me.

1. So you guys say URM status is applied to Mexicans, Puerto Ricans, Native Americans and African Americans. I certainly don't mean to start a flame war or a competition but I would like to know if any of the aforementioned groups is especially favored? I ask because my law advisor told me this is in an email "...There are minorities and then there are 'super' minorities. Take a Mexican male with 3.0/160 and an African American male with a 3.0/160; the African American would almost certainly get more offers and consideration."

2. How exactly is the URM 'boost" given? Is it added on a person GPA or LSAT score? What exactly does it mean?

3. I am AA. How should I deal with GPA floors? Can a URM student apply to school even if their GPA is below the 25th percentile? Can you give me any examples where a URM student has been admitted below a GPA floor?

Look at my profile on LSN, I think I can accurately describe the URM boost, the only school that rejected me was UT Austin, everywhere else was either an acceptance or a wait list

http://lawschoolnumbers.com/miracle2011

mcecilia2489 wrote:

GAIAtheCHEERLEADER wrote:

mcecilia2489 wrote:This may or may not help, but I am an AA female 3.8/150 obviously very low LSAT score BUT had a very strong application otherwise with an amazing personal statement. And just to be clear I have no connections at any of these schools.

University of Florida - In
University of Miami - In
Florida State - Waitlist
Stetson - In
University of San Francisco
Penn State - In with Scholly
University of Georgia - Waitlist
Mississippi - In with full Scholly
Washington and Lee - Waitlist
Georgia State - Denied
Georgetown - Denied

I decided to attend UF in the fall. Hope this helps.

I'm happy for your decision...but, and I know you may not want to hear this but I think you should retake the LSAT. Getting a 160 is really not too difficult if you put the time in...and your LS admissions prospects would have changed DRASTICALLY if you actually reach a 160. Though UF is decent, if you had a 160, or even scored a 158 or 159, you probably would have cracked the T14 with that GPA.

Thank you!! And I really appreciate your advice. I would probably take it over but I have already improved my score 6 points from what it was...0_o...(I took my first test in Oct. and did EXTRA TERRIBLE and second in December) I am not a very good test taker so I think I am better off doing well at UF (top 5%) and transferring into a T14 than taking the LSAT again! I doubt I would do that though anyway, I am from Florida so I'm very comfortable with my decision to attend Levin.

Please don't go into school thinking that top 5% and transferring is more than a pipe dream. Your odds of accomplishing this are 1:20 and honestly, with an LSAT score that low, it might be even less likely to happen. In sum, it's a great goal, but not one you should ever bank on

Look at my profile on LSN, I think I can accurately describe the URM boost, the only school that rejected me was UT Austin, everywhere else was either an acceptance or a wait list

http://lawschoolnumbers.com/miracle2011

I think that this is better evidence that the bump is unevenly applied. This is pretty good. I'm an AA male with the same LSAT, higher GPA and work experience on the Hill, and I didn't get into Penn nor did I get any money from UMich or Cornell.

P.S. It's also great evidence that life experiences matter in the admissions process. I don't mean for any of the above to undermine your personal accomplishments.

JamMasterJ wrote:

mcecilia2489 wrote:

GAIAtheCHEERLEADER wrote:

mcecilia2489 wrote:This may or may not help, but I am an AA female 3.8/150 obviously very low LSAT score BUT had a very strong application otherwise with an amazing personal statement. And just to be clear I have no connections at any of these schools.

University of Florida - In
University of Miami - In
Florida State - Waitlist
Stetson - In
University of San Francisco
Penn State - In with Scholly
University of Georgia - Waitlist
Mississippi - In with full Scholly
Washington and Lee - Waitlist
Georgia State - Denied
Georgetown - Denied

I decided to attend UF in the fall. Hope this helps.

I'm happy for your decision...but, and I know you may not want to hear this but I think you should retake the LSAT. Getting a 160 is really not too difficult if you put the time in...and your LS admissions prospects would have changed DRASTICALLY if you actually reach a 160. Though UF is decent, if you had a 160, or even scored a 158 or 159, you probably would have cracked the T14 with that GPA.

Thank you!! And I really appreciate your advice. I would probably take it over but I have already improved my score 6 points from what it was...0_o...(I took my first test in Oct. and did EXTRA TERRIBLE and second in December) I am not a very good test taker so I think I am better off doing well at UF (top 5%) and transferring into a T14 than taking the LSAT again! I doubt I would do that though anyway, I am from Florida so I'm very comfortable with my decision to attend Levin.

Please don't go into school thinking that top 5% and transferring is more than a pipe dream. Your odds of accomplishing this are 1:20 and honestly, with an LSAT score that low, it might be even less likely to happen. In sum, it's a great goal, but not one you should ever bank on

I am not sure if you read my statement correctly or as it was intended to be received. I would have a better chance at making top 5% or 10% than re-taking the LSAT because my standardized testing skills are just not great. My SAT scores were VERY low also and I graduated in the top 10% of my class in college. I love Florida and I love Gainesville and I haven chosen this school (which was one of my top choices) with no intent to transfer. On another note I am very confident in my ability to do well at the University of Florida and I don't think that top of the class is out of the question for me. I appreciate your concern, and I agree that it is a bad idea to attend a school with the goal of transferring but that is definitely not my plan.

lisjjen wrote:

Look at my profile on LSN, I think I can accurately describe the URM boost, the only school that rejected me was UT Austin, everywhere else was either an acceptance or a wait list

http://lawschoolnumbers.com/miracle2011

I think that this is better evidence that the bump is unevenly applied. This is pretty good. I'm an AA male with the same LSAT, higher GPA and work experience on the Hill, and I didn't get into Penn nor did I get any money from UMich or Cornell.

P.S. It's also great evidence that life experiences matter in the admissions process. I don't mean for any of the above to undermine your personal accomplishments.

This is very true, I got waitlisted at many of those schools (Penn, Berkeley, etc) and very little money at UMich, but got accepted at Harvard with a higher gpa slightly lower LSAT, it really all depends on what the admissions people see in your app when they apply the boost.

saito816 wrote:

lisjjen wrote:

Look at my profile on LSN, I think I can accurately describe the URM boost, the only school that rejected me was UT Austin, everywhere else was either an acceptance or a wait list

http://lawschoolnumbers.com/miracle2011

I think that this is better evidence that the bump is unevenly applied. This is pretty good. I'm an AA male with the same LSAT, higher GPA and work experience on the Hill, and I didn't get into Penn nor did I get any money from UMich or Cornell.

P.S. It's also great evidence that life experiences matter in the admissions process. I don't mean for any of the above to undermine your personal accomplishments.

This is very true, I got waitlisted at many of those schools (Penn, Berkeley, etc) and very little money at UMich, but got accepted at Harvard with a higher gpa slightly lower LSAT, it really all depends on what the admissions people see in your app when they apply the boost.

The funny thing is that my cycle became fairly predictable. I got accepted pretty much everywhere from UChi on down and got wait listed at the top 4ish schools. Even my money was fairly predictable after a while. This seems to be an exception and not the rule though.

mcecilia2489 wrote:I am not sure if you read my statement correctly or as it was intended to be received. I would have a better chance at making top 5% or 10% than re-taking the LSAT because my standardized testing skills are just not great. My SAT scores were VERY low also and I graduated in the top 10% of my class in college. I love Florida and I love Gainesville and I haven chosen this school (which was one of my top choices) with no intent to transfer. On another note I am very confident in my ability to do well at the University of Florida and I don't think that top of the class is out of the question for me. I appreciate your concern, and I agree that it is a bad idea to attend a school with the goal of transferring but that is definitely not my plan.

Make sure you never lose that confidence. Good luck

mcecilia2489 wrote:This may or may not help, but I am an AA female 3.8/150 obviously very low LSAT score BUT had a very strong application otherwise with an amazing personal statement. And just to be clear I have no connections at any of these schools.

University of Florida - In
University of Miami - In
Florida State - Waitlist
Stetson - In
University of San Francisco
Penn State - In with Scholly
University of Georgia - Waitlist
Mississippi - In with full Scholly
Washington and Lee - Waitlist
Georgia State - Denied
Georgetown - Denied

I decided to attend UF in the fall. Hope this helps.

That does help. Thanks for posting.

miracle2011 wrote:

Bmarce wrote:First and foremost I would like to thank you guys for all of the help that you have given me so far. I really appreciate it.

Recently I have been doing research on URM status. I am still unable to truly understand its benefits. I hope you guys can help me.

1. So you guys say URM status is applied to Mexicans, Puerto Ricans, Native Americans and African Americans. I certainly don't mean to start a flame war or a competition but I would like to know if any of the aforementioned groups is especially favored? I ask because my law advisor told me this is in an email "...There are minorities and then there are 'super' minorities. Take a Mexican male with 3.0/160 and an African American male with a 3.0/160; the African American would almost certainly get more offers and consideration."

2. How exactly is the URM 'boost" given? Is it added on a person GPA or LSAT score? What exactly does it mean?

3. I am AA. How should I deal with GPA floors? Can a URM student apply to school even if their GPA is below the 25th percentile? Can you give me any examples where a URM student has been admitted below a GPA floor?

Look at my profile on LSN, I think I can accurately describe the URM boost, the only school that rejected me was UT Austin, everywhere else was either an acceptance or a wait list

http://lawschoolnumbers.com/miracle2011

Thanks for posting. I already came across your profile when I was looking on LSN. Congrats on a great cycle.