Friendly and unfriendly schools for URMs

(BLS, URM status, non-traditional, GLBT)
CanadianWolf
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Re: Friendly and unfriendly schools for URMs

Postby CanadianWolf » Sat Apr 09, 2011 1:36 pm

I agree & I am aware of certain law schools that are rumored to be unfriendly environments to URMs, but without direct experience I don't want to spread unsubstantiated reports so I offered a resource that may help somewhat.

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vanwinkle
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Re: Friendly and unfriendly schools for URMs

Postby vanwinkle » Sat Apr 09, 2011 2:08 pm

CanadianWolf wrote:I agree & I am aware of certain law schools that are rumored to be unfriendly environments to URMs, but without direct experience I don't want to spread unsubstantiated reports so I offered a resource that may help somewhat.

Numbers are pretty irrelevant to what's being asked. This isn't a question about how much diversity will be found at the school but how friendly the local community is. A neighborhood can be 99% white and still welcoming of others, or it can be 50/50 with a lot of tension between two groups.

Personally, I was appalled by the incident here after the Harvard-Yale Game last year, and it made me a lot more aware of how unfriendly things can be here.

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Wade LeBosh
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Re: Friendly and unfriendly schools for URMs

Postby Wade LeBosh » Sat Apr 09, 2011 5:57 pm

vanwinkle wrote:A neighborhood can be 99% white and still welcoming of others, or it can be 50/50 with a lot of tension between two groups.

Hit the nail on the head.

Personally, I was appalled by the incident here after the Harvard-Yale Game last year, and it made me a lot more aware of how unfriendly things can be here.


What incident??

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FeelTheHeat
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Re: Friendly and unfriendly schools for URMs

Postby FeelTheHeat » Sat Apr 09, 2011 5:59 pm

RPK34 wrote:The amount of stereotyping and generalizations in this thread is mind boggling.

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prezidentv8
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Re: Friendly and unfriendly schools for URMs

Postby prezidentv8 » Sat Apr 09, 2011 6:12 pm

FeelTheHeat wrote:
RPK34 wrote:The amount of stereotyping and generalizations in this thread is mind boggling.

CanadianWolf
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Re: Friendly and unfriendly schools for URMs

Postby CanadianWolf » Sat Apr 09, 2011 6:14 pm

Seems like somebody is trying to be coy in addressing the issue. So what happened after the game ?

P.S. Numbers are important, unless "feelings" & "rumors" & "personal anecdotes" are what the OP is seeking. Maybe Vanwinkle can enlighten us as to how to measure "friendly". :D

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vanwinkle
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Re: Friendly and unfriendly schools for URMs

Postby vanwinkle » Sat Apr 09, 2011 6:25 pm

Sorry, I was in a hurry when posting before, and it's been discussed at length here.

Last fall, The Game was played here at Harvard. For a post-game event, the BLSA reserved an entire bar in order to host a BLSA student/alumni homecoming party. After about an hour, the owner realized the whole bar was filling with black people, and kicked everyone out because some of them looked like troublemakers or something like that.

They ended up facing an investigation by the state AG, paying a fine on the order of $30K, and issuing some kind of statement about it.


CanadianWolf wrote:Maybe Vanwinkle can enlighten us as to how to measure "friendly". :D

A very simple baseline definition would be "not what I just described, that's for sure."

CanadianWolf
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Re: Friendly and unfriendly schools for URMs

Postby CanadianWolf » Sat Apr 09, 2011 6:27 pm

I'll stick with numbers & statistics. Thanks for the info. but it doesn't necessarily relate to the law school & campus environment. Prejudice & ugly incidents can be found almost anywhere, just as acts of acceptance. For example, I find it difficult to believe that the Harvard community is unwelcoming of any URMs, although I can believe that unaccepting incidents do occur. Numbers are much more reliable, in my opinion.
There are, as of two years ago, law schools with zero (0%) percent of certain URM groups.
Last edited by CanadianWolf on Sat Apr 09, 2011 6:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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vanwinkle
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Re: Friendly and unfriendly schools for URMs

Postby vanwinkle » Sat Apr 09, 2011 6:37 pm

CanadianWolf wrote:I'll stick with numbers & statistics. Thanks for the info. but it doesn't necessarily relate to the law school & campus environment. Prejudice & ugly incidents can be found almost anywhere, just as acts of acceptance. For example, I find it difficult to believe that the Harvard community is unwelcoming of any URMs, although I can believe that unaccepting incidents do occur. Numbers are much more reliable, in my opinion.

Wow. Just ... wow. Do you even understand what this thread is about?

CanadianWolf
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Re: Friendly and unfriendly schools for URMs

Postby CanadianWolf » Sat Apr 09, 2011 6:39 pm

Yes, but I am approaching it in a different manner because single incidents can be rebutted many times over.
In your example, the state attorney general investigated & imposed a fine. Does that mean that the community is anti-URM or that the community was outraged by the act of a single bar owner ? In simpler terms: Does the bar owner or the state attorney general "speak" for the community ?
Last edited by CanadianWolf on Sat Apr 09, 2011 6:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Cupidity
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Re: Friendly and unfriendly schools for URMs

Postby Cupidity » Sat Apr 09, 2011 6:42 pm

BU may not have a ton of URM's, but the school goes out of its way to make their lives wonderful. Boston Lawyers Group pretty much guaranties you a job out of law school, and there is tons of free food and beer.

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Borhas
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Re: Friendly and unfriendly schools for URMs

Postby Borhas » Sat Apr 09, 2011 6:43 pm

there's no way to give an answer w/o basing it on the same type of lazy stereotypical thinking that leads to baseless discrimination

but I'm feeling lazy so I'll guess Duke, SMU, USC, Harvard, Appalachian Law School, Penn, and.... fuck Cornell too while I'm at it

(stereotypes used: Southern, Blue Bloods, TTTT)
Last edited by Borhas on Sat Apr 09, 2011 6:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

CanadianWolf
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Re: Friendly and unfriendly schools for URMs

Postby CanadianWolf » Sat Apr 09, 2011 6:44 pm

Exactly. It's either "feelings", "rumors" or "anecdotes" that can be countered many times over. Numbers are all we have the can be viewed in at least a somewhat impartial light.
So far one poster suggests that Boston/Cambridge is unfriendly while another cites the friendliness of the BU community.
Last edited by CanadianWolf on Sat Apr 09, 2011 6:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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vanwinkle
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Re: Friendly and unfriendly schools for URMs

Postby vanwinkle » Sat Apr 09, 2011 6:46 pm

Borhas wrote:there's no way to give an answer w/o basing it on the same type of lazy stereotypical thinking that leads to baseless discrimination

So, in other words, "don't share your experiences with others because it will be based on stereotyped thinking." Way to promote reasonable discussion!

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Borhas
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Re: Friendly and unfriendly schools for URMs

Postby Borhas » Sat Apr 09, 2011 6:47 pm

CanadianWolf wrote:Exactly. It's either "feelings", "rumors" or "anecdotes" that can be countered many times over. Numbers are all we have the can be viewed in at least a somewhat impartial light.


numbers are meaningless w/o assumptions

For example, Georgia in the 1800's was probably 30+% black

Maine probably 0-1%... which one was more "friendly" to "URMs" back then?

CanadianWolf
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Re: Friendly and unfriendly schools for URMs

Postby CanadianWolf » Sat Apr 09, 2011 6:49 pm

The numbers that I referenced are simply what law schools report as the percentage of current students under the listed racial & ethnic categories.

Anecdotes are troublesome in this area. Consistent verifiable patterns of improper actions are relevant, but VW's incident is an example of the community's & the state's outrage at a single incident. Shows the opposite of what was intended, in my opinion.
Last edited by CanadianWolf on Sat Apr 09, 2011 6:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Borhas
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Re: Friendly and unfriendly schools for URMs

Postby Borhas » Sat Apr 09, 2011 6:52 pm

vanwinkle wrote:
Borhas wrote:there's no way to give an answer w/o basing it on the same type of lazy stereotypical thinking that leads to baseless discrimination

So, in other words, "don't share your experiences with others because it will be based on stereotyped thinking." Way to promote reasonable discussion!


Successful Troll Succeeded

srsly, though, you know what I mean, and you know there's a parallel.

"I was mugged by black men" ---> Black people more likely to mug
"Some racist dickheads in X-school spat on me and called me names" ---> X-School probably racist

This analogy is obvious if you think incorrectly labeling people as racists is about as bad incorrectly labeling people as robbers etc....

Though, I'll concede that mistakenly stereotyping people as racist is probably not as morally bad as mistakenly stereotyping people as violent and thieving.
Last edited by Borhas on Sat Apr 09, 2011 6:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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drdolittle
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Re: Friendly and unfriendly schools for URMs

Postby drdolittle » Sat Apr 09, 2011 6:53 pm

vanwinkle wrote:
Borhas wrote:there's no way to give an answer w/o basing it on the same type of lazy stereotypical thinking that leads to baseless discrimination

So, in other words, "don't share your experiences with others because it will be based on stereotyped thinking." Way to promote reasonable discussion!

These are loaded points to make on any issue regarding URM status, which is certainly related to stereotyping in one way or another...

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Borhas
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Re: Friendly and unfriendly schools for URMs

Postby Borhas » Sat Apr 09, 2011 6:55 pm

CanadianWolf wrote:The numbers that I referenced are simply what law schools report as the percentage of current students under the listed racial & ethnic categories.

Anecdotes are troublesome in this area. Consistent verifiable patterns of improper actions are relevant, but VW's incident is an example of the community's & the state's outrage at a single incident. Shows the opposite of what was intended, in my opinion.


I've witnessed more racism from immigrants and minorities than WASPs

WASPs just have more power

but hey, that's just my singular experience....

why is that relevant? Because you are assuming diversity means less racism. You are assuming that the school's admission office represents the feelings of the community. These are assumptions you need in order to make a coherent argument.

CanadianWolf
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Re: Friendly and unfriendly schools for URMs

Postby CanadianWolf » Sat Apr 09, 2011 7:02 pm

You are making assumptions about my assumptions . I'm not assuming anything, just letting the OP or other interested readers know that a factual source is available upon which to form their own thoughts.

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Borhas
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Re: Friendly and unfriendly schools for URMs

Postby Borhas » Sat Apr 09, 2011 7:05 pm

CanadianWolf wrote:You are making assumptions about my assumptions .


yes I am

There's nothing wrong w/ information, I'm just saying that numbers by themselves will give ambiguous clues depending on underlying assumption
Last edited by Borhas on Sat Apr 09, 2011 7:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

CanadianWolf
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Re: Friendly and unfriendly schools for URMs

Postby CanadianWolf » Sat Apr 09, 2011 7:05 pm

:D :D :D

P.S. Still waiting for VW's definition of "friendly".

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vanwinkle
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Re: Friendly and unfriendly schools for URMs

Postby vanwinkle » Sat Apr 09, 2011 7:15 pm

Borhas wrote:Successful Troll Succeeded

facepalm.jpg

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vanwinkle
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Re: Friendly and unfriendly schools for URMs

Postby vanwinkle » Sat Apr 09, 2011 7:18 pm

CanadianWolf wrote:P.S. Still waiting for VW's definition of "friendly".

You can start here: http://www.thefreedictionary.com/_/dict ... d=friendly

I'm seriously hoping you don't need further explanation on why numbers don't demonstrate it, especially not better than personal experiences.

CanadianWolf
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Re: Friendly and unfriendly schools for URMs

Postby CanadianWolf » Sat Apr 09, 2011 7:20 pm

Wow ! Just wow ! Do you even understand... ? :D

VW: Do you really believe that one incident defines a community ? If so, then how do you explain the actions of the state's attorney general ? Essentially you are labeling or stereotyping an entire community based on one incident at which the state (the community) expressed outrage. Simply put: If the state's attorney general had not taken any action--investigatory with or without leveling charges--then your position would merit further investigation to see whether or not there exists a pattern & practice of discriminatory behavior, but just the opposite occurred in your example. You disproved your own point without realizing it.




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