Question on chances Forum

[whattheheck]

My cousin who lives in Boston just told me that she took the Feb lsat and got a 168. Her undergrad was 2.7 She is an AA with 7+ years as a paralegal in Boston. She wants to go to a school in NYC. What are her chances. I find this a bit difficult to answer so I hope you guys can give me some good info for her.

[yngblkgifted]

This is going to be hard to answer. The problem is her GPA and not her LSAT. URM splitters are hard to predict. I would predict that Columbia and NYU would be hard to crack with that GPA. Anything higher than those schools is certainly out. I say apply to Columbia and down to T20 or T25 range. Just to warn you though, I am not expert on the subject of splitters, but I have heard that schools are much more forgiving of low LSATs than they are of low GPAs for URMs. Being a reverse splitter I am very convinced about low LSAT forgiveness but I can only speculate about the low GPA forgiveness.

[whattheheck]

This is going to be hard to answer. The problem is her GPA and not her LSAT. URM splitters are hard to predict. I would predict that Columbia and NYU would be hard to crack with that GPA. Anything higher than those schools is certainly out. I say apply to Columbia and down to T20 or T25 range. Just to warn you though, I am not expert on the subject of splitters, but I have heard that schools are much more forgiving of low LSATs than they are of low GPAs for URMs. Being a reverse splitter I am very convinced about low LSAT forgiveness but I can only speculate about the low GPA forgiveness.

Thanks for the response yngblkgifted. I know the gpa is low and that is a tough one for her to overcome. I guess its just one of those things where she will just have to try. Her PS HAS to be steller and her LOR's must sparkle for her to get a bite.

[yngblkgifted]

This is going to be hard to answer. The problem is her GPA and not her LSAT. URM splitters are hard to predict. I would predict that Columbia and NYU would be hard to crack with that GPA. Anything higher than those schools is certainly out. I say apply to Columbia and down to T20 or T25 range. Just to warn you though, I am not expert on the subject of splitters, but I have heard that schools are much more forgiving of low LSATs than they are of low GPAs for URMs. Being a reverse splitter I am very convinced about low LSAT forgiveness but I can only speculate about the low GPA forgiveness.

Thanks for the response yngblkgifted. I know the gpa is low and that is a tough one for her to overcome. I guess its just one of those things where she will just have to try. Her PS HAS to be steller and her LOR's must sparkle for her to get a bite.

No problem. Yes, her application must be near flawless. This may go without saying, but it is imperative that she write a GPA addendum as well. Good luck to your friend!

[LLB2JD]

This is going to be hard to answer. The problem is her GPA and not her LSAT. URM splitters are hard to predict. I would predict that Columbia and NYU would be hard to crack with that GPA. Anything higher than those schools is certainly out. I say apply to Columbia and down to T20 or T25 range. Just to warn you though, I am not expert on the subject of splitters, but I have heard that schools are much more forgiving of low LSATs than they are of low GPAs for URMs. Being a reverse splitter I am very convinced about low LSAT forgiveness but I can only speculate about the low GPA forgiveness.

Good response. Does she have a legitimate reason for low GPA? Or perhaps, did she major in some hard science like Engineering? She might be looked at slightly differently if the answer are/is Yes.

[bk1]

She's almost assuredly not getting CLS/NYU. If she can stomach living in Chicago for a while, her best option for working in NYC post graduation would be ED'ing to NU.

As for NYC schools, Fordham is also unlikely and even if it happened she would probably be paying sticker. Same goes for BU/BC which place decently into NYC. The strong regionals which make NYC a possibility postgrad (though not even close to guaranteed) and that give scholarship money to URM splitters are WUSTL/GW but neither of these make NYC is a sure thing.

If she really has to go to school in NYC, she'll probably be looking at decent scholarship offers from Cardozo, Brooklyn, and St. John's (possible full ride to St. John's, maybe close to one at BLS). I'd take hefty scholarship offers at any of these (assuming little to no stipulations) over Fordham at sticker (would she get actually get it).

[dreadlawks]

I'd wait to see what fee waivers come in the fall. I'm sure she'll get plenty in the top 20 based on score alone. This of course suggests nothing about where she's likely to get in, but I'm under the impression that the intent here is not to decide whether or not to apply period, but to which schools to apply, particularly since the GPA can't be changed?

Is there any big concern that she might flounder in a retake? I bet breaking 170 would help a lot.

If this helps at all: I recall seeing a nonURM splitter here a while ago with something very close to a 3 (on the right side of it) with a 170 on a retake who got significant money at top30s, if I recall correctly. Sorry don't remember who, but I'm pretty sure Fordham and Cardozo were on the list. Oh and I think Full at Brooklyn.

And if it doesn't matter whether LS is in the city, I'd definitely give Cornell a serious look, if for no other reason than that they are more prone to numbers forgiveness, from what I've seen around here.

[whattheheck]

Thank you everyone. You have given me alot to inform her with. I was thinking of telling her to retake for a possible 170+ but she seems dead set on applying this fall.

As for the question of why was her gpa so low, what I do know is that she was working for three of those years to support herself along with being an RA (Resident Assistant/Office Assistant) on campus. She had no support from her family and was dealing with some other things.

[BlaqBella]

Thank you everyone. You have given me alot to inform her with. I was thinking of telling her to retake for a possible 170+ but she seems dead set on applying this fall.

As for the question of why was her gpa so low, what I do know is that she was working for three of those years to support herself along with being an RA (Resident Assistant/Office Assistant) on campus. She had no support from her family and was dealing with some other things.

Check out these profiles:

http://lawschoolnumbers.com/Byakuya769/jd

http://lawschoolnumbers.com/nygrrrl/jd

http://lawschoolnumbers.com/rqfisch/jd

If she must stay in NY, I definitely think she has a shot at Cornell and Fordham with some money. She should also throw an application out to NYU. Check this profile:

http://lawschoolnumbers.com/loshanda/jd

You just never know with these schools. If she's willing to study at a top school outside NY that is known for their good placement with NYC firms, tell her to throw an app out to UMichigan and Northwestern (though, UMichigan has the better placement in NYC).

Most importantly, please relay to her that she must write an addendum explaining why her GPA is so low.

[alexonfyre]

Thank you everyone. You have given me alot to inform her with. I was thinking of telling her to retake for a possible 170+ but she seems dead set on applying this fall.

As for the question of why was her gpa so low, what I do know is that she was working for three of those years to support herself along with being an RA (Resident Assistant/Office Assistant) on campus. She had no support from her family and was dealing with some other things.

Check out these profiles:

http://lawschoolnumbers.com/Byakuya769/jd

http://lawschoolnumbers.com/nygrrrl/jd

http://lawschoolnumbers.com/rqfisch/jd

If she must stay in NY, I definitely think she has a shot at Cornell and Fordham with some money. She should also throw an application out to NYU. Check this profile:

http://lawschoolnumbers.com/loshanda/jd

You just never know with these schools. If she's willing to study at a top school outside NY that is known for their good placement with NYC firms, tell her to throw an app out to UMichigan and Northwestern (though, UMichigan has the better placement in NYC).

Most importantly, please relay to her that she must write an addendum explaining why her GPA is so low.

Loshanda is obviously a troll account. The rest are legit though.

[vanwinkle]

Her 7 years of WE will help counteract the low GPA, and being AA she's going to get her app at least seriously considered by any school in her LSAT range. Typically, URMs get an LSAT boost, but I think many schools would eagerly take an AA female with 7 years WE and an LSAT above their median.

Unless she has a pressing need to be in NYC now, she should apply to BC and BU. I believe would likely give her $$ and both schools can place her into the NYC job market when she graduates.

Within NYC alone, her options are to apply to CLS/NYU knowing they're long shots, hope for a Fordham acceptance (but with little $, as Fordham is stingy when it comes to scholarships) or Brooklyn/Cardozo (which likely will offer $$$ but do not have good job options when you graduate).

She should also apply to Cornell (which is far from NYC but in NY and places well there).

[whattheheck]

Thank you everyone. You have given me alot to inform her with. I was thinking of telling her to retake for a possible 170+ but she seems dead set on applying this fall.

As for the question of why was her gpa so low, what I do know is that she was working for three of those years to support herself along with being an RA (Resident Assistant/Office Assistant) on campus. She had no support from her family and was dealing with some other things.

Check out these profiles:

http://lawschoolnumbers.com/Byakuya769/jd

http://lawschoolnumbers.com/nygrrrl/jd

http://lawschoolnumbers.com/rqfisch/jd

If she must stay in NY, I definitely think she has a shot at Cornell and Fordham with some money. She should also throw an application out to NYU. Check this profile:

http://lawschoolnumbers.com/loshanda/jd

You just never know with these schools. If she's willing to study at a top school outside NY that is known for their good placement with NYC firms, tell her to throw an app out to UMichigan and Northwestern (though, UMichigan has the better placement in NYC).

Most importantly, please relay to her that she must write an addendum explaining why her GPA is so low.

Loshanda is obviously a troll account. The rest are legit though.

Thank you Blaqbella for those links. This will give her some hope.

Alexonfyre, why do you think Loshanda was a hoax? Her LSAT is surprising low for the acceptances she gotten but her softs are pretty impressive.

[alexonfyre]

Thank you everyone. You have given me alot to inform her with. I was thinking of telling her to retake for a possible 170+ but she seems dead set on applying this fall.

As for the question of why was her gpa so low, what I do know is that she was working for three of those years to support herself along with being an RA (Resident Assistant/Office Assistant) on campus. She had no support from her family and was dealing with some other things.

Check out these profiles:

http://lawschoolnumbers.com/Byakuya769/jd

http://lawschoolnumbers.com/nygrrrl/jd

http://lawschoolnumbers.com/rqfisch/jd

If she must stay in NY, I definitely think she has a shot at Cornell and Fordham with some money. She should also throw an application out to NYU. Check this profile:

http://lawschoolnumbers.com/loshanda/jd

You just never know with these schools. If she's willing to study at a top school outside NY that is known for their good placement with NYC firms, tell her to throw an app out to UMichigan and Northwestern (though, UMichigan has the better placement in NYC).

Most importantly, please relay to her that she must write an addendum explaining why her GPA is so low.

Loshanda is obviously a troll account. The rest are legit though.

Thank you Blaqbella for those links. This will give her some hope.

Alexonfyre, why do you think Loshanda was a hoax? Her LSAT is surprising low for the acceptances she gotten but her softs are pretty impressive.

I will grant that I am not 100% sure of Loshanda's illegitimacy, however once you have been around LSN enough, you notice a lot accounts that are fishy. A lot of people get upset when they get rejected from schools and see people with worse stats get in under URM, so they make accounts which are statistical anomalies and then tag them with URM. These garner lots of attention, because people will invariably click on the green dot way off from all of the other ones, to see what is up. The point is to get others pissed about URM admittances as well, so that they can feel justified in their beliefs. It is general wisdom that even the best softs won't overcome low numbers, particularly vis a vis the LSAT, so smart trolls noticed that they can become even more controversial when there is a "feasible" explanation for their outlandish acceptances which itself is a divisive issue amongst applicants. These are also predominantly AA accounts, due to Americans being more inclined to believe that black people get unduly preferential treatment, and the likelihood of white-knights defending the account so as not to be seen as racist. Another tip-off is Cooley, generally any account with Cooley in it along side T14s is a troll or other kind of joke, though I will admit that loshanda (if she is real) seemed to blanket apply to all of the law schools in her state and that would be a logical explanation for that, particularly given her numbers.

The fact of the matter is, even if loshanda is real, she is not just an outlier but a statistical phenomenon (history suggests that even if a nearly identical candidate were to show up, the cycle could turn out wildly differently,) her data can't be properly applied to any other person without significant qualification.

EDIT: I should make it clear that I completely agree with the argument that applying everywhere you want to go, and probability be damned, is actually a very good idea, you have little to lose and everything to gain. I just wanted to strike the loshanda account from the evidence because I felt that it would undermine the point to include data that could be seen as fake.

[yngblkgifted]

Thank you everyone. You have given me alot to inform her with. I was thinking of telling her to retake for a possible 170+ but she seems dead set on applying this fall.

As for the question of why was her gpa so low, what I do know is that she was working for three of those years to support herself along with being an RA (Resident Assistant/Office Assistant) on campus. She had no support from her family and was dealing with some other things.

Check out these profiles:

http://lawschoolnumbers.com/Byakuya769/jd

http://lawschoolnumbers.com/nygrrrl/jd

http://lawschoolnumbers.com/rqfisch/jd

If she must stay in NY, I definitely think she has a shot at Cornell and Fordham with some money. She should also throw an application out to NYU. Check this profile:

http://lawschoolnumbers.com/loshanda/jd

You just never know with these schools. If she's willing to study at a top school outside NY that is known for their good placement with NYC firms, tell her to throw an app out to UMichigan and Northwestern (though, UMichigan has the better placement in NYC).

Most importantly, please relay to her that she must write an addendum explaining why her GPA is so low.

Loshanda is obviously a troll account. The rest are legit though.

Thank you Blaqbella for those links. This will give her some hope.

Alexonfyre, why do you think Loshanda was a hoax? Her LSAT is surprising low for the acceptances she gotten but her softs are pretty impressive.[

I sincerely hope you are joking.

[whattheheck]

Thank for the clear up Alexonfyre. Really appreciate it.

I must say this that I am a new member to this site. I don't normally surf the internet. I haven't in a long time. This is not to say that "My life is too interesting" to surf the net. I just only do it when necessary for me. Since I have decided to apply to law school I have been on the internet trying to get familiar with the process of applying and law school ranking and many other things. So please excuse me for my ignorance in certain matters like who's a troll and not a troll and how ridiculous it must sound when I mention that someone's "softs" are very impressive.

None the less, you guys have given me some great info. I am looking forward to this next cycle and the outcome it has for everyone.

[yngblkgifted]

Thank for the clear up Alexonfyre. Really appreciate it.

I must say this that I am a new member to this site. I don't normally surf the internet. I haven't in a long time. This is not to say that "My life is too interesting" to surf the net. I just only do it when necessary for me. Since I have decided to apply to law school I have been on the internet trying to get familiar with the process of applying and law school ranking and many other things. So please excuse me for my ignorance in certain matters like who's a troll and not a troll and how ridiculous it must sound when I mention that someone's "softs" are very impressive.

None the less, you guys have given me some great info. I am looking forward to this next cycle and the outcome it has for everyone.

Sorry. For a second, I forgot you were a newbie. Stay on this site long enough and you will completely understand TLS customs. Best of luck!

[vanwinkle]

When it comes to top law schools, they tend to have LSAT floors even for URMs, usually at or above 150. Also, one rationale for excusing low LSAT scores for URMs is that they tend to do more poorly for some reason on standardized tests relative to their actual academic performance; therefore you need some measure of actual academic performance (a high GPA) to demonstrate they're capable of more than their low LSAT score suggests.

(This is why, for your friend with a low GPA, a high LSAT score is so important. She needs to demonstrate the opposite: That her GPA is not representative of her current actual ability. A high LSAT score and years of WE combined often suggest this, because they imply they have developed a measure of maturity and ability beyond what they had in college.)

Accounts like "Lashonda" are obviously trolls because they're obviously below all known thresholds for any applicant to the schools they're applied to. Nobody gets into Michigan with a 148 LSAT or a 2.7 GPA, let alone both. As someone else already mentioned, if she is real, she is a real statistical anomaly.

[alexonfyre]

Thank for the clear up Alexonfyre. Really appreciate it.

I must say this that I am a new member to this site. I don't normally surf the internet. I haven't in a long time. This is not to say that "My life is too interesting" to surf the net. I just only do it when necessary for me. Since I have decided to apply to law school I have been on the internet trying to get familiar with the process of applying and law school ranking and many other things. So please excuse me for my ignorance in certain matters like who's a troll and not a troll and how ridiculous it must sound when I mention that someone's "softs" are very impressive.

None the less, you guys have given me some great info. I am looking forward to this next cycle and the outcome it has for everyone.

The internet is a large and scary place, it is overflowing with assholes, and once you come here you can't leave. It is kind of like the Hotel California except, instead of flowing wine, it is thinly veiled references to pedophilia and everything you see is an inside joke. Also, we use a lot of acronyms because reading too much makes us tired.
Welcome to the family!