HBCU Law: NCCU vs FAMU

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Stanford4Me
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Re: HBCU Law: NCCU vs FAMU

Postby Stanford4Me » Mon Mar 07, 2011 11:18 am

SupraVln180 wrote:I might of missed something, but why not Howard? I really wouldn't recommend NCCU or FAMU, but Howard isn't necessarily a bad choice. They have good firm placement b/c they call go there for AA recruiting. Man, you should be able to get into Howard, as long as you have over a 150 and 3.0.


thenupes wrote:I know Howard is the best HBCU, but that school ain't happening lol!

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Re: HBCU Law: NCCU vs FAMU

Postby SupraVln180 » Mon Mar 07, 2011 11:30 am

Stanford4Me wrote:
SupraVln180 wrote:I might of missed something, but why not Howard? I really wouldn't recommend NCCU or FAMU, but Howard isn't necessarily a bad choice. They have good firm placement b/c they call go there for AA recruiting. Man, you should be able to get into Howard, as long as you have over a 150 and 3.0.


thenupes wrote:I know Howard is the best HBCU, but that school ain't happening lol!


than honestly, OP shouldn't go to LS. If you can't achieve over a 3.0 or 150, you won't do well in LS.

/thread

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mez06
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Re: HBCU Law: NCCU vs FAMU

Postby mez06 » Mon Mar 07, 2011 11:41 am

SupraVln180 wrote:
Stanford4Me wrote:
SupraVln180 wrote:
than honestly, OP shouldn't go to LS. If you can't achieve over a 3.0 or 150, you won't do well in LS.

/thread


Save your unworthy elitism for some other trench of despair. This theory obviously makes no sense based upon the thousand of lawyers (successful at that) that have been produced by Texas Southern (Thurgood Marshall School of Law) and NCCU. Will there be firm recruiters waiting for you upon graduation at these schools,absolutely NOT. But a simple google search would prove your logic to be absurdly incorrect and flawed. The inability to research and formulate simple and basic logic would indicate that YOU my friend won't do well in LS.

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DubPoker
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Re: HBCU Law: NCCU vs FAMU

Postby DubPoker » Mon Mar 07, 2011 12:13 pm

mez06 wrote:
SupraVln180 wrote:
Stanford4Me wrote:
SupraVln180 wrote:
than honestly, OP shouldn't go to LS. If you can't achieve over a 3.0 or 150, you won't do well in LS.

/thread


Save your unworthy elitism for some other trench of despair. This theory obviously makes no sense based upon the thousand of lawyers (successful at that) that have been produced by Texas Southern (Thurgood Marshall School of Law) and NCCU. Will there be firm recruiters waiting for you upon graduation at these schools,absolutely NOT. But a simple google search would prove your logic to be absurdly incorrect and flawed. The inability to research and formulate simple and basic logic would indicate that YOU my friend won't do well in LS.


Yes and No.

LSAT and GPA are predictors for law school success. And compared to other graduate school standardized tests I hear the LSAT is actually a better predictor. (Median correlation correlation is .47 (1 being perfect)) http://www.lsac.org/jd/pdfs/LSAT-Score- ... rmance.pdf

If you take an entire group of poor LSAT/GPA students you can say with some certainty that they are going to do worse on average than their higher LSAT/GPA counterparts if they were to compete with each other. For each individual anything can happen.

At TTT and TTTT schools though you have an entire class of low LSAT/GPA students (by TLS standards of course, not trying to be condescending) competing against each other. so >3.0 or >150 might actually be good for these schools. While these students have less opportunities than T1 and T2 students they do have some.

Also, the sense of "elitism" in terms of law school rankings should not be dismissed to do the fact that there aren't enough law jobs created each year for new law school grads. Employers seem to employ from better schools (in their region outside of T14) and they also recruit from the top of classes. in NC while NCCU students can get jobs they will probably have to do way better than their UNC/Wake counterpart. New law schools are opening every year when the market is already oversaturate. These schools are accepting the students that could not get into better established schools. These students are not getting jobs (on average.) When TLS people tell them not to go to law school, or to retake the LSAT these people get offended at the "elitism" when in fact generally speaking it is sound advice. Though I go back to the point that what you predict for a group is different than what an individual is capable of. The problem with this is that everyone thinks that they are the exception to the rule. An example of this is the 0L's (on TLS even) preparing to do well in 1L and than transfer to higher ranked schools.

mettasutta
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Re: HBCU Law: NCCU vs FAMU

Postby mettasutta » Mon Mar 07, 2011 12:26 pm

I searched OP's post history, and found out that he has a 2.9 and a 147. I strongly believe that the credited response is to retake. According to the ABA profiles on LSAC, NCCU's 1L attrition rate is ~25% and FAMU's is an even more frightening 38%. Both of these schools, while affordable (if you're in-state) are VERY risky options.

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Re: HBCU Law: NCCU vs FAMU

Postby thenupes » Tue Mar 08, 2011 5:58 am

I really appreciate all the opinions on whether or not I will be successful in law school or not. I kinda feel like I play on the Miami Heat right now lmao! But real talk, let me worry about that!

I'd rather take the conversation back to which black law school is better. Better yet, lets talk about the things individuals who attend these institutions can do to be successful. These schools exist like it or not. They have produced many "winning" black lawyers lol. The numbers as of 2008-2009 look something like this:


2008-2009 Top Producers of African Americans with Law Degrees

1 Howard University 102
2 Texas Southern University 95
3 Florida A&M University (Orlando) 90
4 Thomas M. Cooley Law School MI 83
5 Southern University Law Center 68
6 Harvard University 66
7 Georgetown University 56
8 North Carolina Central University 47
9 American University 46
10 George Washington University 38
10 New York University 38
12 University of Virginia 37
13 Florida Coastal School of Law 34
14 Brooklyn Law School 32
14 Columbia University 32

Source: U.S. Department of Education


What do y'all think? I know that all those graduates don't walk across stage with 6 figure jobs. However, you can't tell me that none of them are successful. As you see very FEW African-Americans graduate from law school. Based off those numbers, I ain't suppose to have a law degree from anywhere!

Do any of you who have recently posted even know anyone who has attended either school? If so speak on what you have heard about their experiences, not if you think I can make it or not. It's a difficult road for a black lawyer regardless of where he graduates from. I'll be fine...I do this, trust!
Last edited by thenupes on Tue Mar 08, 2011 11:58 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: HBCU Law: NCCU vs FAMU

Postby rman1201 » Tue Mar 08, 2011 8:21 am

Quantity =/= Quality.

Cooley produces the most lawyers overall and yet it manages to remain a joke of a school.

thenupes
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Re: HBCU Law: NCCU vs FAMU

Postby thenupes » Tue Mar 08, 2011 11:04 am

rman1201 wrote:Quantity =/= Quality.

Cooley produces the most lawyers overall and yet it manages to remain a joke of a school.


Did you just want to speak? Are you bored? Because Cooley has nothing to do with the current topic at hand...lol. Just sayin! We're talking HBCU's...Cooley is not one.

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rman1201
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Re: HBCU Law: NCCU vs FAMU

Postby rman1201 » Tue Mar 08, 2011 11:08 am

thenupes wrote:
rman1201 wrote:Quantity =/= Quality.

Cooley produces the most lawyers overall and yet it manages to remain a joke of a school.


Did you just want to speak? Are you bored? Because Cooley has nothing to do with the current topic at hand...lol. Just sayin! We're talking HBCU's...Cooley is not one.


It's an analogy. You cited that list of # of black lawyers produced as some sort of representation of the quality of the institutions. If you did the same for all law schools (based on # of lawyers produced regardless of race) then Cooley would be #1, and we all know that is nowhere near true.

This whole discussion is moot. HBCUs are great, but mostly useful for Undergrad. When it comes to law school and the amount of the investment involved your primary concern should be going wherever will give you the best shot at a job.

socraticmethodman
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Re: HBCU Law: NCCU vs FAMU

Postby socraticmethodman » Tue Mar 08, 2011 11:12 am

thenupes wrote:
rman1201 wrote:Quantity =/= Quality.

Cooley produces the most lawyers overall and yet it manages to remain a joke of a school.


Did you just want to speak? Are you bored? Because Cooley has nothing to do with the current topic at hand...lol. Just sayin! We're talking HBCU's...Cooley is not one.


Come on man, his point is clearly valid. You claim that these schools produce many black lawyers, however producing many black lawyers, or even many lawyers in general, does not mean that the school is a good school.

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Re: HBCU Law: NCCU vs FAMU

Postby thenupes » Tue Mar 08, 2011 11:24 am

rman1201 wrote:
thenupes wrote:
rman1201 wrote:Quantity =/= Quality.

Cooley produces the most lawyers overall and yet it manages to remain a joke of a school.


Did you just want to speak? Are you bored? Because Cooley has nothing to do with the current topic at hand...lol. Just sayin! We're talking HBCU's...Cooley is not one.


It's an analogy. You cited that list of # of black lawyers produced as some sort of representation of the quality of the institutions. If you did the same for all law schools (based on # of lawyers produced regardless of race) then Cooley would be #1, and we all know that is nowhere near true.

This whole discussion is moot. HBCUs are great, but mostly useful for Undergrad. When it comes to law school and the amount of the investment involved your primary concern should be going wherever will give you the best shot at a job.


The whole discussion may be "moot", but this is a discussion that needs to be had. I want the few potential black lawyers there are out there to be able to find info on our law schools. So debate on!

I do not think that you can use that as an analogy. The overall experience is a little different for the black student at a HBCU than it is anywhere else. We are comparing the black schools. Cooley has never been an HBCU.

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Re: HBCU Law: NCCU vs FAMU

Postby socraticmethodman » Tue Mar 08, 2011 11:32 am

thenupes wrote:
rman1201 wrote:
thenupes wrote:
rman1201 wrote:Quantity =/= Quality.

Cooley produces the most lawyers overall and yet it manages to remain a joke of a school.


Did you just want to speak? Are you bored? Because Cooley has nothing to do with the current topic at hand...lol. Just sayin! We're talking HBCU's...Cooley is not one.


It's an analogy. You cited that list of # of black lawyers produced as some sort of representation of the quality of the institutions. If you did the same for all law schools (based on # of lawyers produced regardless of race) then Cooley would be #1, and we all know that is nowhere near true.

This whole discussion is moot. HBCUs are great, but mostly useful for Undergrad. When it comes to law school and the amount of the investment involved your primary concern should be going wherever will give you the best shot at a job.


The whole discussion may be "moot", but this is a discussion that needs to be had. I want the few potential black lawyers there are out there to be able to find info on our law schools. So debate on!

I do not think that you can use that as an analogy. The overall experience is a little different for the black student at a HBCU than it is anywhere else. We are comparing the black schools. Cooley has never been an HBCU.


Dude, I think you are clearly missing the point. The fact that Cooley isn't an HBCU is irrelevant.

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Re: HBCU Law: NCCU vs FAMU

Postby thenupes » Tue Mar 08, 2011 11:47 am

socraticmethodman wrote:Dude, I think you are clearly missing the point. The fact that Cooley isn't an HBCU is irrelevant.


No, your missing the point. If you are comparing J.Cole to Drake you don't bring up T-Pain lol. Catch my drift? Look, I know you want your opinion heard, but like I said this is an HBCU law school debate. At least speak on the lawyers you know from these institutions, not Cooley, or Florida Coastal, or Brooklyn Law. They happened to make the list, but those are not schools we should be comparing just because they are also ranked low. Thanks lawyer!

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Re: HBCU Law: NCCU vs FAMU

Postby mez06 » Tue Mar 08, 2011 11:59 am

Honestly OP, where are you going with this? You received your comments and advice on your personal decision making process, now move along. There's no need to have a drawn out discussion about HBCUs and the number of lawyers they produce. Do you. And whenever others need help/advice then they can come here with their individual predicaments and receive individual guidance

End of Story.

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mez06
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Re: HBCU Law: NCCU vs FAMU

Postby mez06 » Tue Mar 08, 2011 12:04 pm

Furthermore, why are you making analogies to rappers in regards to law school!? You need to "graduate" from the underdeveloped mind state of the "yard" and be here seeking legitimate advice and learning what you can to be successful at your endeavors. Needless banter is almost always counter productive.

And change your freaking font. No one gives a damn about your fraternity in the real world. Cherish it, embrace the brotherhood, but don't allow it to be a shield of naivety.

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yngblkgifted
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Re: HBCU Law: NCCU vs FAMU

Postby yngblkgifted » Tue Mar 08, 2011 12:24 pm

Just finished reading this thread and I really wish I hadn't.


Edit: Btw, I'd much rather be 1 of the 32 blacks graduating from Columbia than 1 of the 102 blacks coming from Howard.
Last edited by yngblkgifted on Tue Mar 08, 2011 12:29 pm, edited 2 times in total.

thenupes
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Re: HBCU Law: NCCU vs FAMU

Postby thenupes » Tue Mar 08, 2011 12:25 pm

mez06 wrote:Honestly OP, where are you going with this? You received your comments and advice on your personal decision making process, now move along. There's no need to have a drawn out discussion about HBCUs and the number of lawyers they produce. Do you. And whenever others need help/advice then they can come here with their individual predicaments and receive individual guidance

End of Story.


Why do I have to be the one to move along? I created this page lol! I want one of these guys to comment on people they know from these institutions. You already have, but I want to hear other viewpoints too.

And of course this discussion is needed, and I'm disappointed you personally don't think that it is. How else will potential black law students find the info they need? TLS is the perfect place to find that info. If you take away the total of blacks graduating from black law schools, how many black lawyers would be produced every year? You should understand this alarming stat, and want to do something about it my fellow Divine Nine brother. Stop trying to take the easy way out by saying this isn't worth discussing just because we ain't talking Harvard. We have both already said we KNOW success stories from these schools...

Honestly bro, if it bothers you that much, you can always end the story by closing the book. Or in your case clicking a different page lol.

thenupes
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Re: HBCU Law: NCCU vs FAMU

Postby thenupes » Tue Mar 08, 2011 12:29 pm

mez06 wrote:Furthermore, why are you making analogies to rappers in regards to law school!? You need to "graduate" from the underdeveloped mind state of the "yard" and be here seeking legitimate advice and learning what you can to be successful at your endeavors. Needless banter is almost always counter productive.

And change your freaking font. No one gives a damn about your fraternity in the real world. Cherish it, embrace the brotherhood, but don't allow it to be a shield of naivety.


...It's def not that serious. We can discuss me at a different time. This is TLS not class. A forum, not a paper.

thenupes
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Re: HBCU Law: NCCU vs FAMU

Postby thenupes » Tue Mar 08, 2011 12:31 pm

yngblkgifted wrote:Just finished reading this thread and I really wish I hadn't.


Edit: Btw, I'd much rather be 1 of the 32 blacks graduating from Columbia than 1 of the 102 blacks coming from Howard.


We all would brother. But obviously that isn't real life. At no point did anyone down the blacks at higher ranked schools.

socraticmethodman
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Re: HBCU Law: NCCU vs FAMU

Postby socraticmethodman » Tue Mar 08, 2011 12:35 pm

OP- No one is saying close all HBCU's, people are saying that the job prospects from them aren't that great.

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yngblkgifted
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Re: HBCU Law: NCCU vs FAMU

Postby yngblkgifted » Tue Mar 08, 2011 12:53 pm

thenupes wrote:
yngblkgifted wrote:Just finished reading this thread and I really wish I hadn't.


Edit: Btw, I'd much rather be 1 of the 32 blacks graduating from Columbia than 1 of the 102 blacks coming from Howard.


We all would brother. But obviously that isn't real life. At no point did anyone down the blacks at higher ranked schools.


Just alluding to what another poster said earlier, Quantity = / = Quality. With that said, I respect anyone who is going after a goal and achieves it whether they graduate from Harvard or FAMU. Op, you asked for advice and people were giving you what they genuinely considered good advice. That should have ended the thread. However, you dragged it on with your unwarranted accusations of racism. If you don't want to hear the typical "retake" or "go to a better school" response then get off TLS.

Also, I know several examples of successful graduates from HBCU law schools (NCCU and Howard), but NONE of them went to school ITE. Not saying that it is impossible to succeed in this economy from either school but you have to keep the current economic landscape in mind when applying to these schools.

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Re: HBCU Law: NCCU vs FAMU

Postby HardWorker3 » Tue Mar 08, 2011 1:17 pm

Ok...overall you're trying to decide between NCCU and FAMU. You should attend NCCU. Though UNC, Wake, and Duke grads (those who don't leave) get the majority of biglaw jobs in the state, NCCU provides grads with good opportunities in public interest positions. I know someone who graduated from NCCU. She did not find a job at first, but a few years later (and after working in a different industry) she now has a public interest job. Someone else I know who graduated from NCCU has a mid-sized law firm job in Virginia and is doing well. I know someone who is currently enrolled at NCCU in the JD/MBA program. She feels like she does more work than students at other area schools because NCCU wants to show everyone that they can provide quality lawyers...which they have done and is evident by the lawyers they've put into public interest jobs. NCCU School of Law also has just as many white students as black students.

All I know about FAMU's law school is what I've learned from websites. It's in Orlando...closed in the 60s....opened again in 2002 with lots of issues (which you can find through a google search). If you want a job, I'd pick the place with more established alums and the school that is at least somewhat respected in its state, which would be NCCU. FAMU for undergrad is respected...FAMU for law school is not. I'm positive from my friends in Florida that law firms in Orlando and Tampa would choose a Stetson Law grad (because of the school's good reputation) over a FAMU Law grad. Not to mention Florida, Florida State, and Miami grads. Though FAMU and Florida Coastal may be tied for the lowest on the totem pole in Florida, NCCU is not the lowest in North Carolina.

I hope this helps. I am African-American. I've been accepted at Howard and NCCU, as well as other schools. I've also been greek for more than seven years. Honestly, many people can graduate from law school. Many people can pass the bar exam. But those two things do not guarantee you a job. If your choices are ONLY between NCCU and FAMU, choose NCCU for its alumni and reputation in North Carolina. After that, it's up to you to work hard in school, make good grades, and participate in extracurricular activities so that you will have a job after graduation.

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Re: HBCU Law: NCCU vs FAMU

Postby socraticmethodman » Tue Mar 08, 2011 1:20 pm

yngblkgifted wrote:
thenupes wrote:
yngblkgifted wrote:Just finished reading this thread and I really wish I hadn't.


Edit: Btw, I'd much rather be 1 of the 32 blacks graduating from Columbia than 1 of the 102 blacks coming from Howard.


We all would brother. But obviously that isn't real life. At no point did anyone down the blacks at higher ranked schools.


Just alluding to what another poster said earlier, Quantity = / = Quality. With that said, I respect anyone who is going after a goal and achieves it whether they graduate from Harvard or FAMU. Op, you asked for advice and people were giving you what they genuinely considered good advice. That should have ended the thread. However, you dragged it on with your unwarranted accusations of racism. If you don't want to hear the typical "retake" or "go to a better school" response then get off TLS.

Also, I know several examples of successful graduates from HBCU law schools (NCCU and Howard), but NONE of them went to school ITE. Not saying that it is impossible to succeed in this economy from either school but you have to keep the current economic landscape in mind when applying to these schools.


This

SupraVln180
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Re: HBCU Law: NCCU vs FAMU

Postby SupraVln180 » Tue Mar 08, 2011 1:26 pm

mez06 wrote:
SupraVln180 wrote:
Stanford4Me wrote:
SupraVln180 wrote:
than honestly, OP shouldn't go to LS. If you can't achieve over a 3.0 or 150, you won't do well in LS.

/thread


Save your unworthy elitism for some other trench of despair. This theory obviously makes no sense based upon the thousand of lawyers (successful at that) that have been produced by Texas Southern (Thurgood Marshall School of Law) and NCCU. Will there be firm recruiters waiting for you upon graduation at these schools,absolutely NOT. But a simple google search would prove your logic to be absurdly incorrect and flawed. The inability to research and formulate simple and basic logic would indicate that YOU my friend won't do well in LS.



This is why I hate TLS sometimes, everyone trys to argue logic. This has nothing to do with logic. OP has a 2.9 and a 147, OP should study his ass off and retake or not go. I think it is foolish to advise someone to take out over 100+ K in debt to be jobless or drop out.

OP if you can work hard and retake, maybe you can get some money at these schools or possibly get into a local T2 or Howard. Anyone can break 158-160+ with a proper amount of studying. Both of these would be tremendously better options for you. I know retaking sucks, but it's your future and I would seriously consider it.

thenupes
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Re: HBCU Law: NCCU vs FAMU

Postby thenupes » Tue Mar 08, 2011 2:05 pm

HardWorker3 wrote:Ok...overall you're trying to decide between NCCU and FAMU. You should attend NCCU. Though UNC, Wake, and Duke grads (those who don't leave) get the majority of biglaw jobs in the state, NCCU provides grads with good opportunities in public interest positions. I know someone who graduated from NCCU. She did not find a job at first, but a few years later (and after working in a different industry) she now has a public interest job. Someone else I know who graduated from NCCU has a mid-sized law firm job in Virginia and is doing well. I know someone who is currently enrolled at NCCU in the JD/MBA program. She feels like she does more work than students at other area schools because NCCU wants to show everyone that they can provide quality lawyers...which they have done and is evident by the lawyers they've put into public interest jobs. NCCU School of Law also has just as many white students as black students.

All I know about FAMU's law school is what I've learned from websites. It's in Orlando...closed in the 60s....opened again in 2002 with lots of issues (which you can find through a google search). If you want a job, I'd pick the place with more established alums and the school that is at least somewhat respected in its state, which would be NCCU. FAMU for undergrad is respected...FAMU for law school is not. I'm positive from my friends in Florida that law firms in Orlando and Tampa would choose a Stetson Law grad (because of the school's good reputation) over a FAMU Law grad. Not to mention Florida, Florida State, and Miami grads. Though FAMU and Florida Coastal may be tied for the lowest on the totem pole in Florida, NCCU is not the lowest in North Carolina.

I hope this helps. I am African-American. I've been accepted at Howard and NCCU, as well as other schools. I've also been greek for more than seven years. Honestly, many people can graduate from law school. Many people can pass the bar exam. But those two things do not guarantee you a job. If your choices are ONLY between NCCU and FAMU, choose NCCU for its alumni and reputation in North Carolina. After that, it's up to you to work hard in school, make good grades, and participate in extracurricular activities so that you will have a job after graduation.


Thank you...GREAT response!




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