URM HYS applicants 2011 Forum

[EbonyEsq]

Columbia might have better placement in Biglaw but there are more than a few smaller firms that pay 145k+. Of course, these firms dont make up a whole lot of entry-level hiring but they do hire a few.

In house is where its at. Better hours too.

Plus, I think really people distort what "placement" should imply when choosing schools. Placement power, in terms of choosing schools, should imply that a firm would favor students from a certain school over equivalent students from another school. I highly, highly doubt thats whats going on with Harvard vs. Columbia. To me, that means that there is no placement advantage for Columbia despite possible percentage differences. When you look at data, analysis of the implications of the data are just as important as the data itself.

As someone who has worked in NYC BIGLAW for 3 years and counting, I can safely say that firms have their preferences even amongst the top law schools.

[rundoxierun]

Columbia might have better placement in Biglaw but there are more than a few smaller firms that pay 145k+. Of course, these firms dont make up a whole lot of entry-level hiring but they do hire a few.

In house is where its at. Better hours too.

Plus, I think really people distort what "placement" should imply when choosing schools. Placement power, in terms of choosing schools, should imply that a firm would favor students from a certain school over equivalent students from another school. I highly, highly doubt thats whats going on with Harvard vs. Columbia. To me, that means that there is no placement advantage for Columbia despite possible percentage differences. When you look at data, analysis of the implications of the data are just as important as the data itself.

As someone who has worked in NYC BIGLAW for 3 years and counting, I can safely say that firms have their preferences even amongst the top law schools.

I know this.. but to the degree that you feel there is a significant NYC "placement power" difference between Columbia and HLS in the NYC market as a whole??

[Non-Chalant1]

Columbia might have better placement in Biglaw but there are more than a few smaller firms that pay 145k+. Of course, these firms dont make up a whole lot of entry-level hiring but they do hire a few.

In house is where its at. Better hours too.

Plus, I think really people distort what "placement" should imply when choosing schools. Placement power, in terms of choosing schools, should imply that a firm would favor students from a certain school over equivalent students from another school. I highly, highly doubt thats whats going on with Harvard vs. Columbia. To me, that means that there is no placement advantage for Columbia despite possible percentage differences. When you look at data, analysis of the implications of the data are just as important as the data itself.

As someone who has worked in NYC BIGLAW for 3 years and counting, I can safely say that firms have their preferences even amongst the top law schools.

I know this.. but to the degree that you feel there is a significant NYC "placement power" difference between Columbia and HLS in the NYC market as a whole??

Not that this convo involves me. But from some anecdotal evidence. I know a couple of friends that have fathers/uncles in high positions in big law. One firm's Boston office (I believe) only really liked people from Harvard and Michigan. As far as NYC goes I was told that Harvard is always preferred but NYU/Columbia were viewed the same. A guy I interned under who moved out of Big Law and went to CCN told me the same. To what extent I'm unsure though.

[rundoxierun]

Not that this convo involves me. But from some anecdotal evidence. I know a couple of friends that have fathers/uncles in high positions in big law. One firm's Boston office (I believe) only really liked people from Harvard and Michigan. As far as NYC goes I was told that Harvard is always preferred but NYU/Columbia were viewed the same. A guy I interned under who moved out of Big Law and went to CCN told me the same. To what extent I'm unsure though.

This is definitely an open and serious question.. I dont know a lot of former/current NYC Biglaw people but the few I do know have told me exactly what you have heard. I have always been told that, overall at least, HLS is second to none for NYC biglaw.

[LAWLAW09]

Fwiw, I know of one URM corporate lawyer (Columbia Law alum, former Skadden, Arps associate, currently works in D.C.), and his advice was to go to Columbia over Harvard if BigLaw was the goal. He seemed more focused on the benefits of going to school in NYC, than on the benefits of attending Columbia, but he was def pro-Columbia. (NYU never came up in the conversation.) Also, he is not a recent grad, and he paid sticker.

HTH.

[TatNurner]

TK, a few posts back you said you would pick Harvard over a CCN full ride, perhaps I missed it, but I'm curious as to your reasoning for this one? Harvard is nice, but is it that good, esp if biglaw is end goal and Columbia and NYU can do the same for cheaper?

(This is not a challenge about your decision making btw, just general curiousity).

[Fresh]

Fresh and TK -

Are you guys still pretty much undecided on where you will be this Fall or are you leaning toward certain schools. Interested in both of your cycles.

I'm pretty undecided to be honest.
These are the 4 options I'm hoping to have -
Harvard
Yale
Columbia w/ $$$$
Michigan w/ a huge scholarship (curveball?)

I'm low SES, so I don't know how much need aid I will get from Harvard (and Yale if i'm blessed enough to get in), and $ is a big part of my decision making. I am not set on big law, and I refuse to have a fat debt load out of law school. I have a million factors I'm considering, as does everyone else, and without seeing all options in front of me it's hard to narrow it down much at all. So if I don't get a big Darrow, don't get in to Columbia w/ big money, and don't get in to Yale, then I'll go to Harvard. FWIW I will probably be withdrawing from GW, Duke, Georgetown, Virginia, and Berkeley soon.

[rundoxierun]

TK, a few posts back you said you would pick Harvard over a CCN full ride, perhaps I missed it, but I'm curious as to your reasoning for this one? Harvard is nice, but is it that good, esp if biglaw is end goal and Columbia and NYU can do the same for cheaper?

(This is not a challenge about your decision making btw, just general curiousity).

No problem. First, it is probably best for me to define "goal" as I write it. When I say goal, what I mean is the "worst" outcome that I would find satisfactory. I dont mean to use it as a synonym for dream. Its kind of like saying you want to get a certain grade in a class. Of course you would be happy with doing better, but you arent going to be upset unless you do worse. Ideally I would prefer to have a fed. clerkship(and eventually academia.. this would be my dream situation), environmental PI, or even transition into in-house work. Unfortunately, there are a lot of variables that go into all of those (high-grades, relationship situation, luck, etc.). I really dont feel comfortable saying those are my "goal" under the definition I gave.

In the end, I think going to HLS gives me a good chance of meeting the baseline "goal" while also giving me a very good shot at the other options if everything falls in place. In addition, I prefer non-NYC markets so that kind of takes the edge off of Columbia and NYU a bit. I also have to take into account that my decision is likely to be 25-29k grant vs. ~45k scholly rather than sticker vs. ~45k.

Dont get me wrong. If I had CCN full vs. HLS I would definitely give it a long thought. Im not anywhere near 100% sure I would turn it down. But this is pretty much how I would reason my way through it.

[EbonyEsq]

Columbia might have better placement in Biglaw but there are more than a few smaller firms that pay 145k+. Of course, these firms dont make up a whole lot of entry-level hiring but they do hire a few.

In house is where its at. Better hours too.

Plus, I think really people distort what "placement" should imply when choosing schools. Placement power, in terms of choosing schools, should imply that a firm would favor students from a certain school over equivalent students from another school. I highly, highly doubt thats whats going on with Harvard vs. Columbia. To me, that means that there is no placement advantage for Columbia despite possible percentage differences. When you look at data, analysis of the implications of the data are just as important as the data itself.

As someone who has worked in NYC BIGLAW for 3 years and counting, I can safely say that firms have their preferences even amongst the top law schools.

I know this.. but to the degree that you feel there is a significant NYC "placement power" difference between Columbia and HLS in the NYC market as a whole??

YES.

[EbonyEsq]

I'm low SES, so I don't know how much need aid I will get from Harvard (and Yale if i'm blessed enough to get in), and $ is a big part of my decision making. I am not set on big law, and I refuse to have a fat debt load out of law school. I have a million factors I'm considering, as does everyone else, and without seeing all options in front of me it's hard to narrow it down much at all. So if I don't get a big Darrow, don't get in to Columbia w/ big money, and don't get in to Yale, then I'll go to Harvard. FWIW I will probably be withdrawing from GW, Duke, Georgetown, Virginia, and Berkeley soon.

Also worth consideration is each schools loan repayment programs. Even though I've knocked Yale in this thread, they same to have the better LRAP over Harvard.

[timmna]

Fresh and TK -

Are you guys still pretty much undecided on where you will be this Fall or are you leaning toward certain schools. Interested in both of your cycles.

I'm pretty undecided to be honest.
These are the 4 options I'm hoping to have -
Harvard
Yale
Columbia w/ $$$$
Michigan w/ a huge scholarship (curveball?)

I'm low SES, so I don't know how much need aid I will get from Harvard (and Yale if i'm blessed enough to get in), and $ is a big part of my decision making. I am not set on big law, and I refuse to have a fat debt load out of law school. I have a million factors I'm considering, as does everyone else, and without seeing all options in front of me it's hard to narrow it down much at all. So if I don't get a big Darrow, don't get in to Columbia w/ big money, and don't get in to Yale, then I'll go to Harvard. FWIW I will probably be withdrawing from GW, Duke, Georgetown, Virginia, and Berkeley soon.

Any particular reason S isn't on that list? I've gotta say... the more I've looked into S, the more I've found to like.

[Fresh]

Any particular reason S isn't on that list? I've gotta say... the more I've looked into S, the more I've found to like.

location location. I love Cali (from there originally), but I'm too connected to the east/midwest to move out there later this year I think. It's still not crossed off though (plus if I got in it'd make me have to look more into it)

[rundoxierun]

I know this.. but to the degree that you feel there is a significant NYC "placement power" difference between Columbia and HLS in the NYC market as a whole??

YES.

Wow.. thats interesting. I have been told, independently, by 4 people formerly or currently in NYC biglaw that it is, at worst, a wash between HLS and CLS in NYC. Ive never seen anything to challenge that. In fact, everything I have seen or been told completely supports that. One of these people included a recently semi-retired, former in-house guy who asked a current biglaw partner this very question for me. Sure, people say going to CLS would be a better experience b/c of NYC or to take money from CLS over HLS but never that their is an NYC placement advantage over HLS from any school.

Just to be clear.. what you are saying is that you believe that, in general, NYC firms prefer a CLS grad over an equivalent HLS grad to a significant degree?

[EbonyEsq]

Just to be clear.. what you are saying is that you believe that, in general, NYC firms prefer a CLS grad over an equivalent HLS grad to a significant degree?

Significant degree? I like how you slipped that in there.

What I am saying is that CLS law students have an advantage over HLS law students when it comes to NYC placement mostly due to their close proximity to the Mecca of BIGLAW: New York, NY. Some NYC BIGLAW firms also have their biases and it shows.

But as a black student with either schools behind your name, you can't go wrong.

So question: if you gained acceptance to Yale, Columbia ($$) and Harvard, which shall it be and why?

[rundoxierun]

So question: if you gained acceptance to Yale, Columbia ($$) and Harvard, which shall it be and why?

Yale would be out b/c Im not the type of person who would take advantage of the some of the major benefits of Yale (small class sizes, access to profs, etc.) but I am very interested in the major benefits of Harvard (network, business school, clinics, etc.). Yale's LRAP is better, at least in the short run, but both schools have an acceptable LRAP so thats not a big factor. I actually came into this cycle w/ SLS as my first choice so an acceptance there would complicate things more than YLS would.

HLS vs. CLS(or any of CCN) with a full scholly would be a hard one. I dont think I can really even say what I would do w/o the offer in hand. It is just really hard to choose w/o knowledge of where you will end up in the class. If I knew I was going to graduate in the top 25% or bottom 25% at either I would take HLS w/o a second thought. That middle 50% is where things get really murky. At some point, Im just going to have to sit down and decide what my assumptions are for how the economy is going to look in 2012/2013, how I see my current relationship going, how much I value having certain career options and a few other things.

[EbonyEsq]

So question: if you gained acceptance to Yale, Columbia ($$) and Harvard, which shall it be and why?

Yale would be out b/c Im not the type of person who would take advantage of the some of the major benefits of Yale (small class sizes, access to profs, etc.) but I am very interested in the major benefits of Harvard (network, business school, clinics, etc.). Yale's LRAP is better, at least in the short run, but both schools have an acceptable LRAP so thats not a big factor. I actually came into this cycle w/ SLS as my first choice so an acceptance there would complicate things more than YLS would.

HLS vs. CLS(or any of CCN) with a full scholly would be a hard one. I dont think I can really even say what I would do w/o the offer in hand. It is just really hard to choose w/o knowledge of where you will end up in the class. If I knew I was going to graduate in the top 25% or bottom 25% at either I would take HLS w/o a second thought. That middle 50% is where things get really murky. At some point, Im just going to have to sit down and decide what my assumptions are for how the economy is going to look in 2012/2013, how I see my current relationship going, how much I value having certain career options and a few other things.

I was under the impression HLS did away with ranking, grades, etc. I thought it was now a P/F grading system, like YLS and SLS. Unless they also rank those...?

Either way, good luck with your decision. And FYI, if you intend on staying with the GF and marrying her, she should be just as important a consideration before deciding.

[Fresh]

I was under the impression HLS did away with ranking, grades, etc. I thought it was now a P/F grading system, like YLS and SLS. Unless they also rank those...?

They got rid of letter grades for a HP/P/LP/F system. There's a forced curve I believe (approx. bottom 10% of a class get an LP?). I have read, though, that Harvard's system hasn't really undercut grade competition like Yale's has. I don't know about Stanford's.

[EbonyEsq]

I was under the impression HLS did away with ranking, grades, etc. I thought it was now a P/F grading system, like YLS and SLS. Unless they also rank those...?

They got rid of letter grades for a HP/P/LP/F system. There's a forced curve I believe (approx. bottom 10% of a class get an LP?). I have read, though, that Harvard's system hasn't really undercut grade competition like Yale's has. I don't know about Stanford's.

Thanks for the clarification.

[Non-Chalant1]

I haven't applied to Stanford and have been toying with the thought this weekend. I wonder if it's too late now.

[Mrs. Jack Donaghy]

.

[Fresh]

I haven't applied to Stanford and have been toying with the thought this weekend. I wonder if it's too late now.

Toying w/ the thought --> interest in attending --> submit an app

goood luck. Which of UVa Michigan and UNC do u attend?

[rundoxierun]

I was under the impression HLS did away with ranking, grades, etc. I thought it was now a P/F grading system, like YLS and SLS. Unless they also rank those...?

They got rid of letter grades for a HP/P/LP/F system. There's a forced curve I believe (approx. bottom 10% of a class get an LP?). I have read, though, that Harvard's system hasn't really undercut grade competition like Yale's has. I don't know about Stanford's.

Thanks for the clarification.

LP is actually completely discretionary.. 8% was the recommended amount of LP but some people think HLS may be softening that recommendation.

[gamblera]

how many of yall applied with gpas lower than 3.5 and lsats 170+? I see a few of you have ~~3.8, 170+

[jd20132013]

Checking in...applied to H 12-22 last year, S on 1/8

Haven't applied to Yale yet but I'm going to... stats 3.7 GPA 170 LSAT (retook a 161)

[csalguero10]

Just wondering what you guys think about GPA vs. LSAT for HYS and CCN? I'm currently applying next cycle, but I would be doing so with a 2.8/179. Is it even worth spending money on applying or should I stick to the lower T14s? Does it matter that my UG major was engineering at a top program (Cornell)?