After Harvard and Yale does ranking really matter

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patchin411
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After Harvard and Yale does ranking really matter

Postby patchin411 » Wed Nov 24, 2010 2:55 pm

If an AA male can get into a top 14 school with money should ranking affect decision. Is a full ride at uva or michigan better 150,000 of debt from columbia? I already owe 125,000 in school debt. Should I be looking for the best value? I would like to work in biglaw for several years and then become a judge.

bdubs
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Re: After Harvard and Yale does ranking really matter

Postby bdubs » Wed Nov 24, 2010 3:06 pm

patchin411 wrote:If an AA male can get into a top 14 school with money should ranking affect decision. Is a full ride at uva or michigan better 150,000 of debt from columbia? I already owe 125,000 in school debt. Should I be looking for the best value? I would like to work in biglaw for several years and then become a judge.


If you are really faced with the decision of full-ride at MVP or sticker at Columbia, I think that the decision is pretty easy. Chances are you won't be in that position though since scholarship money tends to be somewhat correlated with numbers. You should get some money from Columbia if you get full rides from UVA and/or Michigan.

patchin411
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Re: After Harvard and Yale does ranking really matter

Postby patchin411 » Wed Nov 24, 2010 3:09 pm

So do you go with the most money re: schools in the top 14 or do you go with the best ranking?

bdubs
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Re: After Harvard and Yale does ranking really matter

Postby bdubs » Wed Nov 24, 2010 3:13 pm

patchin411 wrote:So do you go with the most money re: schools in the top 14 or do you go with the best ranking?


It's not that simple. A full ride at Michigan is way better than 200k in debt from Columbia. Your goal of biglaw->judiciary is one that could be accomplished at any T14 school but it is more likely if you graduate from a higher ranked school.

Also, you should consider geography. If you want to practice in Chicago and be in the judiciary in the midwest, I would guess Michigan or Chicago would be better schools than say UVA or NYU.

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vanwinkle
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Re: After Harvard and Yale does ranking really matter

Postby vanwinkle » Wed Nov 24, 2010 3:18 pm

patchin411 wrote:If an AA male can get into a top 14 school with money should ranking affect decision. Is a full ride at uva or michigan better 150,000 of debt from columbia? I already owe 125,000 in school debt. Should I be looking for the best value? I would like to work in biglaw for several years and then become a judge.

If your goals are BigLaw or other prestige-linked things (and a respectable judgeship will require political appointment, which could make degree matter) then I'd say you should really aim as high as possible. Three factors for you to consider:

1) HIgher-ranked school does make BigLaw more likely. Firms are going deeper into the class at Columbia than MVP. Especially ITE, if you want BigLaw then you're better off going to Columbia, defnitely.

2) Connections for future jobs can depend on your law firm. Big law firms are more than just employers, they're networks, and getting into a more prestigious one gives you access to a better network you can tap into (when, say, looking for someone who knows the people that make judicial appointments). You have a better chance of success. Ending up with roughly the same rank (and you probably would, the difference in peers and class dificulty is not great between these schools) at Columbia or MVP, even if you're in BigLaw range at both schools, Columbia might get you more prestigious offers than your same class rank at MVP would.

3) You're already six figures in debt. Law school makes no sense for you unless you're 1) intending to do public service and make the government pay your loans (in which case you can rack up another $150K without great concern, and go to Columbia) or you're 2) dead-set on going to BigLaw so you can pay off your loans (and that means increasing your odds of getting BigLaw as much as possible, which means going to Columbia).

You'll have a hell of a lot of debt to pay off, but that would be better than "saving $100K", still ending up in $200K total debt, and missing out on BigLaw entirely because you did poorly at a lower T14.

bdubs
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Re: After Harvard and Yale does ranking really matter

Postby bdubs » Wed Nov 24, 2010 3:28 pm

I would reference the answers that you get from your other post. You are likely to get biglaw as an AA male with somewhat decent grades at a T14. Vanwinkle's point about biglaw prestige is important, but I don't think that is critical. Look at some of the firms where the Obama administration pulled appointments from. They are not all V10 firms, in fact a lot of them are not.

I can see the argument that IBR will probably kick in for you in most circumstances because you already have so much debt. You will more than likely get some need based grants because of your ridiculously huge undergrad debt, so I doubt you will have 350k in debt when you graduate. It still takes a long time to pay that (whatever your ultimate loan balance is) down, even making biglaw salaries.

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Borhas
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Re: After Harvard and Yale does ranking really matter

Postby Borhas » Wed Nov 24, 2010 3:51 pm

(and a respectable judgeship will require political appointment


you say some stupid shit dude

I'd like you to tell any judge that he doesn't have a "respectable" judgeship because he has to face an election

superior court judges in California are all elected (the SC of CA has retention votes for justices when their terms are up)... :roll: but I guess that's just not prestigious enough for some people

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Re: After Harvard and Yale does ranking really matter

Postby Grizz » Wed Nov 24, 2010 3:53 pm

bdubs wrote:I would reference the answers that you get from your other post. You are likely to get biglaw as an AA male with somewhat decent grades at a T14. Vanwinkle's point about biglaw prestige is important, but I don't think that is critical. Look at some of the firms where the Obama administration pulled appointments from. They are not all V10 firms, in fact a lot of them are not.

I can see the argument that IBR will probably kick in for you in most circumstances because you already have so much debt. You will more than likely get some need based grants because of your ridiculously huge undergrad debt, so I doubt you will have 350k in debt when you graduate. It still takes a long time to pay that (whatever your ultimate loan balance is) down, even making biglaw salaries.


You're almost assuredly not gonna get need-based aid. It pretty much doesn't exist. OP, if you're worried about your exorbitant undergrad debt, get a job, and law school will still be there when you're done.

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vanwinkle
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Re: After Harvard and Yale does ranking really matter

Postby vanwinkle » Wed Nov 24, 2010 3:54 pm

Borhas wrote:superior court judges in California are all elected... :roll: but I guess that's just not prestigious enough for some people

Sorry, I totally overlooked elected state appellate positions. I'm used to "judicial elections" back home being local county justices of the peace and things. However, networking and connections can still help you a lot there (by getting you on a party ballot over other candidates, getting you endorsements and funding, etc). So I don't think it changes my point all that much.

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Borhas
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Re: After Harvard and Yale does ranking really matter

Postby Borhas » Wed Nov 24, 2010 4:05 pm

vanwinkle wrote:
Borhas wrote:superior court judges in California are all elected... :roll: but I guess that's just not prestigious enough for some people

Sorry, I totally overlooked state supreme court positions, many of which are definitely also prestigious. However, networking and connections can still help you a lot there (by getting you on a party ballot over other candidates, getting you endorsements and funding, etc). So I don't think it changes my point all that much.


my point is there is pretty much no such thing as a judgeship that isn't respectable... even some bankruptcy court in Alaska

the vast majority of State court judges are elected (in the California Supreme Court they are appointed for a term, and then put on the ballot after the term is up... I was talking about superior courts which are district/trial courts).

If you are a Fed COA justice it would make sense for that thought to even cross your mind... but as far as Law students, lawyers, partners, whatever, you better damn well respect the judge in front of you. And that is "respectable" by any measure.

And I really don't mean to be lashing at you, I know this is somewhat of an ingrained mindset, but dude, take a step back and gain some perspective, it'll do ya a ton of good.
======================================

Either way becoming a judge means you need to be an awesome lawyer that's also involved (read: donates money, and supported by key groups). Though, yes, a Fed appointment will require ridiculously good connections.

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vanwinkle
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Re: After Harvard and Yale does ranking really matter

Postby vanwinkle » Wed Nov 24, 2010 4:25 pm

Borhas wrote:my point is there is pretty much no such thing as a judgeship that isn't respectable... even some bankruptcy court in Alaska

...

And I really don't mean to be lashing at you, I know this is somewhat of an ingrained mindset, but dude, take a step back and gain some perspective, it'll do ya a ton of good.

I didn't mean to imply that you shouldn't respect a judge. Of course you should always respect a judge when you're in a courtroom. That's not the sense I was trying to use the word at all. Maybe I should've used "desirable" or (even better) "most desirable".

I meant my reply from a particular perspective, which is that someone who's concerned with attending a top-ten school, getting BigLaw, and paying down $200K or more in debt is probably not thinking about doing all that with the goal of becoming a county courthouse judge who makes $50K per year and has to deal with re-election every four years to keep his job.

I realize that judgeships are a spectrum and there's a huge middle ground between "county courthouse" and "Federal COA". But regardless of any argument about how you group them, or where you draw any particular line between "desirable" and "less desirable" positions and whatever, it still ends up being true regardless of that conversation, that better connections can get you a better position as a judge just as it can in any other field. I think we can agree on that much.

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Re: After Harvard and Yale does ranking really matter

Postby HamDel » Wed Nov 24, 2010 7:08 pm

vanwinkle wrote:
patchin411 wrote:If an AA male can get into a top 14 school with money should ranking affect decision. Is a full ride at uva or michigan better 150,000 of debt from columbia? I already owe 125,000 in school debt. Should I be looking for the best value? I would like to work in biglaw for several years and then become a judge.

If your goals are BigLaw or other prestige-linked things (and a respectable judgeship will require political appointment, which could make degree matter) then I'd say you should really aim as high as possible. Three factors for you to consider:

1) HIgher-ranked school does make BigLaw more likely. Firms are going deeper into the class at Columbia than MVP. Especially ITE, if you want BigLaw then you're better off going to Columbia, defnitely.

2) Connections for future jobs can depend on your law firm. Big law firms are more than just employers, they're networks, and getting into a more prestigious one gives you access to a better network you can tap into (when, say, looking for someone who knows the people that make judicial appointments). You have a better chance of success. Ending up with roughly the same rank (and you probably would, the difference in peers and class dificulty is not great between these schools) at Columbia or MVP, even if you're in BigLaw range at both schools, Columbia might get you more prestigious offers than your same class rank at MVP would.

3) You're already six figures in debt. Law school makes no sense for you unless you're 1) intending to do public service and make the government pay your loans (in which case you can rack up another $150K without great concern, and go to Columbia) or you're 2) dead-set on going to BigLaw so you can pay off your loans (and that means increasing your odds of getting BigLaw as much as possible, which means going to Columbia).

You'll have a hell of a lot of debt to pay off, but that would be better than "saving $100K", still ending up in $200K total debt, and missing out on BigLaw entirely because you did poorly at a lower T14.


I think this makes a lot of sense. I had an opportunity to attend a lower school on a full ride, but I chose to pay at HYSCCN. I was in the middle of the pack gradewise, and I got a biglaw job for next summer. I also had a good amount of undergrad debt.

If this were 2006 or something and biglaw jobs were more plentiful, I'd say go for the full ride because the worst case scenario would be that you would wind up in a highly paid job you don't like that much. But it's 2010, and nothing guarantees these jobs anymore. If I had taken the full ride and performed at the same level, it's not out of the realm of possibility that I would be jobless. In fact, I know someone who made the opposite choice and is currently jobless.

Remember that you're walking into law school to walk out starting a career, so don't take this choice lightly. It wouldn't be a wrong decision to take the scholarship, but it's not an open and shut case.

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Re: After Harvard and Yale does ranking really matter

Postby rundoxierun » Thu Nov 25, 2010 4:28 am

vanwinkle wrote:
patchin411 wrote:If an AA male can get into a top 14 school with money should ranking affect decision. Is a full ride at uva or michigan better 150,000 of debt from columbia? I already owe 125,000 in school debt. Should I be looking for the best value? I would like to work in biglaw for several years and then become a judge.

If your goals are BigLaw or other prestige-linked things (and a respectable judgeship will require political appointment, which could make degree matter) then I'd say you should really aim as high as possible. Three factors for you to consider:

1) HIgher-ranked school does make BigLaw more likely. Firms are going deeper into the class at Columbia than MVP. Especially ITE, if you want BigLaw then you're better off going to Columbia, defnitely.

2) Connections for future jobs can depend on your law firm. Big law firms are more than just employers, they're networks, and getting into a more prestigious one gives you access to a better network you can tap into (when, say, looking for someone who knows the people that make judicial appointments). You have a better chance of success. Ending up with roughly the same rank (and you probably would, the difference in peers and class dificulty is not great between these schools) at Columbia or MVP, even if you're in BigLaw range at both schools, Columbia might get you more prestigious offers than your same class rank at MVP would.

3) You're already six figures in debt. Law school makes no sense for you unless you're 1) intending to do public service and make the government pay your loans (in which case you can rack up another $150K without great concern, and go to Columbia) or you're 2) dead-set on going to BigLaw so you can pay off your loans (and that means increasing your odds of getting BigLaw as much as possible, which means going to Columbia).

You'll have a hell of a lot of debt to pay off, but that would be better than "saving $100K", still ending up in $200K total debt, and missing out on BigLaw entirely because you did poorly at a lower T14.


This is madness.. CCN sticker vs MVP full ride w/ 120k in debt already?? The answer is ALWAYS MVP. Even w/o the debt someone in this situation should almost always choose the full ride.

ETA: 330k debt translates to like 4k/month loan payments on the 10 yr plan.

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LLB2JD
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Re: After Harvard and Yale does ranking really matter

Postby LLB2JD » Thu Nov 25, 2010 8:10 am

tkgrrett wrote:
vanwinkle wrote:
patchin411 wrote:If an AA male can get into a top 14 school with money should ranking affect decision. Is a full ride at uva or michigan better 150,000 of debt from columbia? I already owe 125,000 in school debt. Should I be looking for the best value? I would like to work in biglaw for several years and then become a judge.

If your goals are BigLaw or other prestige-linked things (and a respectable judgeship will require political appointment, which could make degree matter) then I'd say you should really aim as high as possible. Three factors for you to consider:

1) HIgher-ranked school does make BigLaw more likely. Firms are going deeper into the class at Columbia than MVP. Especially ITE, if you want BigLaw then you're better off going to Columbia, defnitely.

2) Connections for future jobs can depend on your law firm. Big law firms are more than just employers, they're networks, and getting into a more prestigious one gives you access to a better network you can tap into (when, say, looking for someone who knows the people that make judicial appointments). You have a better chance of success. Ending up with roughly the same rank (and you probably would, the difference in peers and class dificulty is not great between these schools) at Columbia or MVP, even if you're in BigLaw range at both schools, Columbia might get you more prestigious offers than your same class rank at MVP would.

3) You're already six figures in debt. Law school makes no sense for you unless you're 1) intending to do public service and make the government pay your loans (in which case you can rack up another $150K without great concern, and go to Columbia) or you're 2) dead-set on going to BigLaw so you can pay off your loans (and that means increasing your odds of getting BigLaw as much as possible, which means going to Columbia).

You'll have a hell of a lot of debt to pay off, but that would be better than "saving $100K", still ending up in $200K total debt, and missing out on BigLaw entirely because you did poorly at a lower T14.


This is madness.. CCN sticker vs MVP full ride w/ 120k in debt already?? The answer is ALWAYS MVP. Even w/o the debt someone in this situation should almost always choose the full ride.

ETA: 330k debt translates to like 4k/month loan payments on the 10 yr plan.


:shock:

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newyorker88
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Re: After Harvard and Yale does ranking really matter

Postby newyorker88 » Thu Nov 25, 2010 2:17 pm

could be. in one post he says he's in his late twenties in another he says he's 33

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vanwinkle
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Re: After Harvard and Yale does ranking really matter

Postby vanwinkle » Thu Nov 25, 2010 2:25 pm

tkgrrett wrote:ETA: 330k debt translates to like 4k/month loan payments on the 10 yr plan.

Yes, but put it in perspective. $160k/year translates to over $13k/month. Because of the bimodal pay distribution (most jobs are at/near $160K in a law firm, or making less than half that elsewhere), he needs to increase his odds of that payout as much as possible to be able to pay off his loans if he's going to law school at all. Even a full rude at MVP would mean $60K in COL debt plus $125K in existing debt; $185K in debt still translates to over 2K per month, and for less chance of making BigLaw.

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Re: After Harvard and Yale does ranking really matter

Postby bdubs » Thu Nov 25, 2010 2:40 pm

vanwinkle wrote:
tkgrrett wrote:ETA: 330k debt translates to like 4k/month loan payments on the 10 yr plan.

Yes, but put it in perspective. $160k/year translates to over $13k/month. Because of the bimodal pay distribution (most jobs are at/near $160K in a law firm, or making less than half that elsewhere), he needs to increase his odds of that payout as much as possible to be able to pay off his loans if he's going to law school at all. Even a full rude at MVP would mean $60K in COL debt plus $125K in existing debt; $185K in debt still translates to over 2K per month, and for less chance of making BigLaw.


Working and living in NYC you will have ~8100 in take home pay per month (assuming lockstep bonus). You will also have 2,000 or so in rent per month.

If ,as a URM, OP can get a market paying job out of MVP with less debt, I think he is better off there.

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Re: After Harvard and Yale does ranking really matter

Postby rundoxierun » Thu Nov 25, 2010 3:13 pm

bdubs wrote:
vanwinkle wrote:
tkgrrett wrote:ETA: 330k debt translates to like 4k/month loan payments on the 10 yr plan.

Yes, but put it in perspective. $160k/year translates to over $13k/month. Because of the bimodal pay distribution (most jobs are at/near $160K in a law firm, or making less than half that elsewhere), he needs to increase his odds of that payout as much as possible to be able to pay off his loans if he's going to law school at all. Even a full rude at MVP would mean $60K in COL debt plus $125K in existing debt; $185K in debt still translates to over 2K per month, and for less chance of making BigLaw.


Working and living in NYC you will have ~8100 in take home pay per month (assuming lockstep bonus). You will also have 2,000 or so in rent per month.

If ,as a URM, OP can get a market paying job out of MVP with less debt, I think he is better off there.


Exactly.. even taking the deduction for student loan interest a single person in NYC making 160k pre tax is looking at like 97-100k post tax. Take out 48k in student loan payments you are down to ~50k before you start paying for life. You think that extra 24k/yr might be helpful? The extent to which people, even well respected posters, overvalue the difference between MVP and CCN is already bad. But the extent to which people make horrible financial decisions as if they were a given just absolutely shocks me.

bdubs
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Re: After Harvard and Yale does ranking really matter

Postby bdubs » Thu Nov 25, 2010 3:17 pm

tkgrrett wrote:Exactly.. even taking the deduction for student loan interest a single person in NYC making 160k pre tax is looking at like 97-100k post tax. Take out 48k in student loan payments you are down to ~50k before you start paying for life. You think that extra 24k/yr might be helpful? The extent to which people, even well respected posters, overvalue the difference between MVP and CCN and the extent to which people make horrible financial decisions just absolutely shocks me.


Agreed, a lot of the same firms interview at MVP that interview at CCN. You might have a harder time with equivalent grades, but you will still have the same resume and interviewing skills.

Also, you can only deduct student loan interest if you make less than $70k.

HamDel
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Re: After Harvard and Yale does ranking really matter

Postby HamDel » Fri Nov 26, 2010 2:35 pm

tkgrrett wrote:
bdubs wrote:
vanwinkle wrote:
tkgrrett wrote:ETA: 330k debt translates to like 4k/month loan payments on the 10 yr plan.

Yes, but put it in perspective. $160k/year translates to over $13k/month. Because of the bimodal pay distribution (most jobs are at/near $160K in a law firm, or making less than half that elsewhere), he needs to increase his odds of that payout as much as possible to be able to pay off his loans if he's going to law school at all. Even a full rude at MVP would mean $60K in COL debt plus $125K in existing debt; $185K in debt still translates to over 2K per month, and for less chance of making BigLaw.


Working and living in NYC you will have ~8100 in take home pay per month (assuming lockstep bonus). You will also have 2,000 or so in rent per month.

If ,as a URM, OP can get a market paying job out of MVP with less debt, I think he is better off there.


Exactly.. even taking the deduction for student loan interest a single person in NYC making 160k pre tax is looking at like 97-100k post tax. Take out 48k in student loan payments you are down to ~50k before you start paying for life. You think that extra 24k/yr might be helpful? The extent to which people, even well respected posters, overvalue the difference between MVP and CCN is already bad. But the extent to which people make horrible financial decisions as if they were a given just absolutely shocks me.


Sure, but from what I understand this has been a much more difficult year for schools outside of HYSCCN than it has been for schools inside that group. If you don't get a job in biglaw at OCI, it's going to be a LOT harder to make money immediately coming out of school. He's going to have very serious debt either way, so he would potentially be better off just going with the option that has the best employment prospects. It's not a given either way, and both could potentially be "horrible" financial decisions.

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Kohinoor
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Re: After Harvard and Yale does ranking really matter

Postby Kohinoor » Tue Nov 30, 2010 6:57 pm

MVP$$ > CCN without imo.

I'm unconvinced of CCN opening doors at any point in your career that are worth $170,000 as compared to similar doors at MVP.

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Re: After Harvard and Yale does ranking really matter

Postby Ratchet Jackson » Tue Nov 30, 2010 7:24 pm

Kohinoor wrote:MVP$$ > CCN without imo.

I'm unconvinced of CCN opening doors at any point in your career that are worth $170,000 as compared to similar doors at MVP.


Respectfully, I'd disagree slightly. I'd say JD at CLS worth sticker over $$ at UVA, personally. It all depends on what you actually wanna do with your JD. I plan on practicing on the westcoast...CLS IMO will open more doors for me in private industry, especially in the LA/SF markets.

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Kohinoor
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Re: After Harvard and Yale does ranking really matter

Postby Kohinoor » Tue Nov 30, 2010 8:04 pm

RJ127 wrote:
Kohinoor wrote:MVP$$ > CCN without imo.

I'm unconvinced of CCN opening doors at any point in your career that are worth $170,000 as compared to similar doors at MVP.


Respectfully, I'd disagree slightly. I'd say JD at CLS worth sticker over $$ at UVA, personally. It all depends on what you actually wanna do with your JD. I plan on practicing on the westcoast...CLS IMO will open more doors for me in private industry, especially in the LA/SF markets.

Is this based on any empirical evidence?

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Ratchet Jackson
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Re: After Harvard and Yale does ranking really matter

Postby Ratchet Jackson » Tue Nov 30, 2010 8:15 pm

Kohinoor wrote:
RJ127 wrote:
Kohinoor wrote:MVP$$ > CCN without imo.

I'm unconvinced of CCN opening doors at any point in your career that are worth $170,000 as compared to similar doors at MVP.


Respectfully, I'd disagree slightly. I'd say JD at CLS worth sticker over $$ at UVA, personally. It all depends on what you actually wanna do with your JD. I plan on practicing on the westcoast...CLS IMO will open more doors for me in private industry, especially in the LA/SF markets.

Is this based on any empirical evidence?


I've worked at three major national law firms in the LA area, each with partners stating their preferences for incoming associates. t-6 or bust for a lot, but I've personally noticed an extremely high preference for Cali grads. Stan/Cal/UCLA/USC. I havent seen a huge push for UVA grads at all, or heard of any from the associates/partners I work with. Not to say that UVA places horribly in the market I work in as a whole, but based on my experiences, CLS will open more doors for me. That's just my rationale, others can def have different experiences than I do.

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BruceWayne
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Re: After Harvard and Yale does ranking really matter

Postby BruceWayne » Tue Nov 30, 2010 8:21 pm

Kohinoor wrote:Is this based on any empirical evidence?


HELL NO. This TLS created infatuation with the "top 6" has really gotten out of hand. There is simply no way in hell that sticker at any of CCN is worth taking over big cash at MVPB--period. I'm still trying to figure out why people are grouping CCN with HYS anyway. If you really want to get decisive about cutting and dicing up the top 14, there is a much bigger difference between HYS and CCN than there is after that within the top 14. While the "gap" between NYU and MVPB that posters keep stressing is arguable at best.




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