Am I an URM?

(BLS, URM status, non-traditional, GLBT)

What Effect Would Applying as a Native American Have on My Application?

Help it.
13
46%
Hurt it.
9
32%
No effect.
6
21%
 
Total votes: 28

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CGI Fridays
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Re: Am I an URM?

Postby CGI Fridays » Mon Oct 25, 2010 12:11 am

Nightrunner wrote: This is not the purpose of this thread;

True. I'm sorry it was off topic.

Nightrunner wrote:you are either making a piss-poor analogy (that isn't really analogous) or purposefully derailing the thread. Either way, knock it off.

I wasn't suggesting it was analogous to being 1/64th NA. Nor was I trying to derail the thread.

I was assuming that imbored25 was disgusted with OP for trying to take advantage of something OP doesn't deserve.
I was trying to convey that there's a perfectly legit use of the URM system that I'm willing to admit I'm disgusted with.
And, if the system as it stands is not just, why get mad at someone for trying to tap into it?

Just because you're answering a simple question about race doesn't mean you can pretend it's just a question about race. It's also about the boost you'll receive, & I truly feel that a URM from a wealthy family who did all they could for their child has less "moral" right to use the boost than OP would if OP happened to be dirt poor. I don't know OP's social background & I don't care to, I'm just saying if he can get a boost, I won't judge him for it, because I know if I were a wealthy URM I'd damn sure check the appropriate box to get my boost.

serdog
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Re: Am I an URM?

Postby serdog » Mon Oct 25, 2010 12:13 am

duck wrote:By blood, I am 1/64 Miami Indian. Culturally, I am more like 1/32 or 1/16 Miami Indian, as my ancestors who were 1/2 and maybe even 1/4 Miami Indian were raised as Indians and fully considered themselves Indians. I am a card-carrying member of the Miami Nation of Indians of the State of Indiana. I have received two small scholarships from the Miami Nation of Indians of the State of Indiana for my undergraduate education (I just graduated), and my father's generation received money from the federal government in the 1960's or 1970's as repayment for lands taken from the tribe. I don't remember whether I put down that I was white or white and Native American when I applied for undergraduate admissions. Besides the things I have already mentioned, being a Miami Indian has not had much of an effect on my life. If my family hadn't told me otherwise, I would have thought that I was 100% white. We Miami's are not federally-recognized, and all of us look white due to the fact that the Indians started marrying whites quite a while ago.
!


That the key thing. Doesn't matter if your 1/2 or 1/512 if being that ethic/cultural group has no impact on your life I feel you should not put it down. Think about what is you contention to your nation and your Miami heritage is that something you identify with? Can you write a good DS about being a Miami? Think what it means to you? If you can do that check the box it means something to you, if not do not check School may not give you a boast

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CGI Fridays
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Re: Am I an URM?

Postby CGI Fridays » Mon Oct 25, 2010 12:15 am

Nightrunner wrote:
CGI wrote:Post about the AA system

NR wrote:Hey man, no AA debates.

CGI wrote:True, my bad. Let me tell you how I feel about AA.


:?


Sorry, I just wanted to make it clear that I wasn't making a poor analogy, nor was I trying to derail the thread.

Edit: I realize OP was strictly "Am I", but it quickly became tied up in "should you."
Last edited by CGI Fridays on Mon Oct 25, 2010 12:22 am, edited 1 time in total.

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CGI Fridays
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Re: Am I an URM?

Postby CGI Fridays » Mon Oct 25, 2010 12:20 am

PDaddy wrote:Secondly, it is clear that, despite having a modicum of Indian blood, you were not raised in the traditions of Indian culture.

I don't believe being raised in a culture is part of it. I believe it's just blood.

serdog
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Re: Am I an URM?

Postby serdog » Mon Oct 25, 2010 12:36 am

CGI Fridays wrote:I don't believe being raised in a culture is part of it. I believe it's just blood.

I don't know how admission committees look at it however for most aboriginal people identity is in large part a function of culture a much as, even more so then blood. Also at the end of the DS are done and reviewed when making this considerations i'm sure culture involvement comes up.

imbored25
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Re: Am I an URM?

Postby imbored25 » Mon Oct 25, 2010 12:37 am

someone please close this thread

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CGI Fridays
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Re: Am I an URM?

Postby CGI Fridays » Mon Oct 25, 2010 12:40 am

serdog wrote:I don't know how admission committees look at it however for most aboriginal people identity is in large part a function of culture a much as, even more so then blood. Also at the end of the DS are done and reviewed when making this considerations i'm sure culture involvement comes up.

I was referring specifically to the law school admissions process, LSAC etc., & whether or not one is technically answering "correctly," "justifiably" or what have you, under THEIR rules.

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CGI Fridays
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Re: Am I an URM?

Postby CGI Fridays » Mon Oct 25, 2010 12:41 am

imbored25 wrote:someone please close this thread

I realize this is a sensitive subject, but in all honesty, why?

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bk1
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Re: Am I an URM?

Postby bk1 » Mon Oct 25, 2010 12:50 am

Just wanted to say that I think this should be lounged, not locked. Though I'm sure someone like chup would jump all over my ass on that one.

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mpasi
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Re: Am I an URM?

Postby mpasi » Mon Oct 25, 2010 2:53 am

Past 1/16, it doesn't count. If you bring it up in your personal statement, chances are they'll think you're ridiculous (especially your explanation for your lack of NA features)The idea that you are attempting to use your very distant NA heritage as a boost for your apps is pathetic. Have you no shame? If a school chooses you, that's a seat that wouldn't be available to an applicant who is actually NA and has a connection to his/her heritage.

I don't mean to be rude, but as someone who has a significant amount of Creek blood flowing through her veins, your post/idea is complete bullshit.

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Grizz
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Re: Am I an URM?

Postby Grizz » Mon Oct 25, 2010 2:58 am

lulz ur dum

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mpasi
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Re: Am I an URM?

Postby mpasi » Mon Oct 25, 2010 3:06 am

duck wrote:
bostlaw wrote:I just would think that morally, you should not put yourself down as native american when you are 0.016% native american.


I don't mean to be "that guy," but I"m 0.016 Native American, 1.6% Native American by blood. And since we aren't a federally-recognized tribe and we all look white, the Miami Nation of Indians of the State of Indiana recognizes anyone who has any ancestors that were Miami's as full-members of the tribe.



You shouldn't bother if you don't have federal recognition. BIA says you're not Native, and I think that's key to calling yourself NA. You're not from the tribe in Oklahoma, which does have recognition. You're white, dude. If you put yourself down as NA, you're lying. Do you even know how to pronounce the tribe's name?

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Re: Am I an URM?

Postby serdog » Mon Oct 25, 2010 3:20 am

mpasi wrote:Past 1/16, it doesn't count. If you bring it up in your personal statement, chances are they'll think you're ridiculous (especially your explanation for your lack of NA features)The idea that you are attempting to use your very distant NA heritage as a boost for your apps is pathetic. Have you no shame? If a school chooses you, that's a seat that wouldn't be available to an applicant who is actually NA and has a connection to his/her heritage.

What about those who may have small amount of blood even red hair and Blue yet have super strong connection to their heritage, Ive personally meet a number of people like that who I can say are much strong cultural people then many full blood people I know ?

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duck1
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Re: Am I an URM?

Postby duck1 » Mon Oct 25, 2010 3:53 am

mpasi wrote:
duck wrote:
bostlaw wrote:I just would think that morally, you should not put yourself down as native american when you are 0.016% native american.


I don't mean to be "that guy," but I"m 0.016 Native American, 1.6% Native American by blood. And since we aren't a federally-recognized tribe and we all look white, the Miami Nation of Indians of the State of Indiana recognizes anyone who has any ancestors that were Miami's as full-members of the tribe.



You shouldn't bother if you don't have federal recognition. BIA says you're not Native, and I think that's key to calling yourself NA. You're not from the tribe in Oklahoma, which does have recognition. You're white, dude. If you put yourself down as NA, you're lying. Do you even know how to pronounce the tribe's name?


Could you please show me where the BIA says I'm not Native? I'm looking for whatever information/help I can get, so getting a link or something would be better than just having to take your word for it, no offense. You're right we're not federally recognized, but I don't think that means that my Indian heritage doesn't matter at all. Not only can I pronounce the tribe's name, I can also pronounce my clan name--Meshingomesia.

I'm just trying to figure out whether it's worth mentioning, with full disclosure as to all the aspects that may or may not make me considered Native American, in a diversity statement. I don't want to hurt my app by looking like a sleazeball or joker, but at the same time, I don't want to sell myself short.

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Grizz
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Re: Am I an URM?

Postby Grizz » Mon Oct 25, 2010 9:58 am

duck wrote:Could you please show me where the BIA says I'm not Native? I'm looking for whatever information/help I can get, so getting a link or something would be better than just having to take your word for it, no offense. You're right we're not federally recognized, but I don't think that means that my Indian heritage doesn't matter at all. Not only can I pronounce the tribe's name, I can also pronounce my clan name--Meshingomesia.

I'm just trying to figure out whether it's worth mentioning, with full disclosure as to all the aspects that may or may not make me considered Native American, in a diversity statement. I don't want to hurt my app by looking like a sleazeball or joker, but at the same time, I don't want to sell myself short.


Then you're obviously Native American. Congrats.



Image

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mpasi
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Re: Am I an URM?

Postby mpasi » Mon Oct 25, 2010 11:25 am

duck wrote:
Could you please show me where the BIA says I'm not Native? I'm looking for whatever information/help I can get, so getting a link or something would be better than just having to take your word for it, no offense. You're right we're not federally recognized, but I don't think that means that my Indian heritage doesn't matter at all. Not only can I pronounce the tribe's name, I can also pronounce my clan name--Meshingomesia.

I'm just trying to figure out whether it's worth mentioning, with full disclosure as to all the aspects that may or may not make me considered Native American, in a diversity statement. I don't want to hurt my app by looking like a sleazeball or joker, but at the same time, I don't want to sell myself short.




http://www.bia.gov/WhoWeAre/AS-IA/OFA/A ... /index.htm
You will make yourself look like a fool if you come to adcomms with the story you posted here. You will look like a fraud if you lie about your heritage. I get the sense that adcomms want people who are actual Native Americans from recognized tribes, and not white people with very distant NA ties. You're familiar with the Houma tribe of Louisiana, right? They don't have recognition, either. Why? Because the last real Houma died in the early 20th century. The present "tribe" is just a group of white people claiming NA heritage. Be honest. 1/16 is a drop, or so said our friend Jim Crow. What do you think 1/64 constitutes? It's not even a trace amount. Not only that, but you've admitted that you don't even know your tribes customs or history, outside of them kidnapping white women and making their descendants white. Why should anyone consider you NA? There's nothing to indicate that you are.

You'd be selling yourself short by telling your NA story. Exclude it.

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CGI Fridays
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Re: Am I an URM?

Postby CGI Fridays » Mon Oct 25, 2010 2:47 pm

Bummed that there's a strict cutoff point.
Why do they have to go & cover their bases? Don't they know they'll be killing threads internetwide?

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duck1
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Re: Am I an URM?

Postby duck1 » Mon Oct 25, 2010 3:17 pm

I've gotten some responses saying I'd be hurting my chances or wasting my time, and I've gotten some responses saying it's worth mentioning to adcomms. Realistically, shouldn't I just contact some the admissions departments at a few law schools I don't plan on applying to and seeing what their thoughts are on my situation?

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mpasi
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Re: Am I an URM?

Postby mpasi » Mon Oct 25, 2010 6:55 pm

duck wrote:I've gotten some responses saying I'd be hurting my chances or wasting my time, and I've gotten some responses saying it's worth mentioning to adcomms. Realistically, shouldn't I just contact some the admissions departments at a few law schools I don't plan on applying to and seeing what their thoughts are on my situation?


*head tilt*


Why would you do that? Their reactions won't be the same as the reactions of the schools you DO plan to apply to, plus, you'd have something to lose by applying as Native American and then being found out later on. The bottom line is that you're not NA, at least not for admissions purposes. Realistically, you need to apply without checking a URM box. Your case isn't all that different from Dion Alaniz, a white guy who got creative with his stepfather's last name and applied to law schools as Latino. http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... =2&t=50564


It's best to stand on your own merit.

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s0ph1e2007
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Re: Am I an URM?

Postby s0ph1e2007 » Mon Oct 25, 2010 7:12 pm

mpasi wrote:
duck wrote:
Could you please show me where the BIA says I'm not Native? I'm looking for whatever information/help I can get, so getting a link or something would be better than just having to take your word for it, no offense. You're right we're not federally recognized, but I don't think that means that my Indian heritage doesn't matter at all. Not only can I pronounce the tribe's name, I can also pronounce my clan name--Meshingomesia.

I'm just trying to figure out whether it's worth mentioning, with full disclosure as to all the aspects that may or may not make me considered Native American, in a diversity statement. I don't want to hurt my app by looking like a sleazeball or joker, but at the same time, I don't want to sell myself short.




http://www.bia.gov/WhoWeAre/AS-IA/OFA/A ... /index.htm
You will make yourself look like a fool if you come to adcomms with the story you posted here. You will look like a fraud if you lie about your heritage. I get the sense that adcomms want people who are actual Native Americans from recognized tribes, and not white people with very distant NA ties. You're familiar with the Houma tribe of Louisiana, right? They don't have recognition, either. Why? Because the last real Houma died in the early 20th century. The present "tribe" is just a group of white people claiming NA heritage. Be honest. 1/16 is a drop, or so said our friend Jim Crow. What do you think 1/64 constitutes? It's not even a trace amount. Not only that, but you've admitted that you don't even know your tribes customs or history, outside of them kidnapping white women and making their descendants white. Why should anyone consider you NA? There's nothing to indicate that you are.

You'd be selling yourself short by telling your NA story. Exclude it.



Totally unrelated to OP question, but mpasi, you cannot honestly think that every non-federally recognized Tribe is a group of pseudo-Indians? Are you really going to law school? That's got to be the most uninformed federal Indian law opinion I've ever seen. My Tribe was recognized in the last 10 years. Does that mean we were fake until then?

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ArchRoark
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Re: Am I an URM?

Postby ArchRoark » Mon Oct 25, 2010 7:36 pm

Someone had posted a link to the Dion Alaniz thread. His website is taken down, but if anyone is interested in reading about him it is available on archive.org:

http://web.archive.org/web/200805121349 ... facts.html

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mpasi
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Re: Am I an URM?

Postby mpasi » Mon Oct 25, 2010 7:54 pm

s0ph1e2007 wrote:
mpasi wrote:
duck wrote:
Could you please show me where the BIA says I'm not Native? I'm looking for whatever information/help I can get, so getting a link or something would be better than just having to take your word for it, no offense. You're right we're not federally recognized, but I don't think that means that my Indian heritage doesn't matter at all. Not only can I pronounce the tribe's name, I can also pronounce my clan name--Meshingomesia.

I'm just trying to figure out whether it's worth mentioning, with full disclosure as to all the aspects that may or may not make me considered Native American, in a diversity statement. I don't want to hurt my app by looking like a sleazeball or joker, but at the same time, I don't want to sell myself short.




http://www.bia.gov/WhoWeAre/AS-IA/OFA/A ... /index.htm
You will make yourself look like a fool if you come to adcomms with the story you posted here. You will look like a fraud if you lie about your heritage. I get the sense that adcomms want people who are actual Native Americans from recognized tribes, and not white people with very distant NA ties. You're familiar with the Houma tribe of Louisiana, right? They don't have recognition, either. Why? Because the last real Houma died in the early 20th century. The present "tribe" is just a group of white people claiming NA heritage. Be honest. 1/16 is a drop, or so said our friend Jim Crow. What do you think 1/64 constitutes? It's not even a trace amount. Not only that, but you've admitted that you don't even know your tribes customs or history, outside of them kidnapping white women and making their descendants white. Why should anyone consider you NA? There's nothing to indicate that you are.

You'd be selling yourself short by telling your NA story. Exclude it.



Totally unrelated to OP question, but mpasi, you cannot honestly think that every non-federally recognized Tribe is a group of pseudo-Indians? Are you really going to law school? That's got to be the most uninformed federal Indian law opinion I've ever seen. My Tribe was recognized in the last 10 years. Does that mean we were fake until then?


Where exactly did I say that it applied to every unrecognized group? Show me. I'll wait. Oh...I didn't. I brought up the Houma as a parallel because it's very similar to OP's tribe. The instance of your tribe finally getting recognition has nothing to do with that, or other unrecognized tribes not getting it. I'm not saying OP isn't Native American simply because he/she is from an unrecognized tribe...I'm saying it because he/she is claiming 1/64 heritage of a tribe that has been white for a few generations now. OP admitted to not following the tribal traditions, or conducting himself/herself as a Miami Indian. Why exactly should OP get to say he/she is Native when all signs point to that not being the case?

Also, we're not discussing federal Indian law. How the BIA views OP's tribe was discussed, but there was no opinion on law itself. Thanks.

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CGI Fridays
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Re: Am I an URM?

Postby CGI Fridays » Mon Oct 25, 2010 8:02 pm

mpasi wrote: Where exactly did I say that it applied to every unrecognized group? Show me. I'll wait. Oh...I didn't.


mpasi wrote:I get the sense that adcomms want people who are actual Native Americans from recognized tribes, and not...

Not explicit, but insinuated that actual Native Americans are from recognized tribes.

No need to get upset, could have just said "sorry if you got that implication, I certainly don't believe that you need to be a federally recognized tribe to be a real tribe."

serdog
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Re: Am I an URM?

Postby serdog » Mon Oct 25, 2010 9:17 pm

mpasi wrote:[
OP admitted to not following the tribal traditions, or conducting himself/herself as a Miami Indian. Why exactly should OP get to say he/she is Native when all signs point to that not being the case?

Key point. He the OP was make a real effort to be cultural a Miami Indian I would say maybe check that box, no cultural connection and 1/64 I don't think it morally right.

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duck1
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Re: Am I an URM?

Postby duck1 » Tue Oct 26, 2010 12:16 am

serdog wrote:
mpasi wrote:[
OP admitted to not following the tribal traditions, or conducting himself/herself as a Miami Indian. Why exactly should OP get to say he/she is Native when all signs point to that not being the case?

Key point. He the OP was make a real effort to be cultural a Miami Indian I would say maybe check that box, no cultural connection and 1/64 I don't think it morally right.


I'm not entirely sure, but I could probably count on my hands the number of Miami Indians of the State of Indiana who would be considered as acting as Native Americans based on exhibited behavior of tribal traditions. Part of the reason I'm thinking and asking about this now (when I won't be applying to law school until next fall) is because I was wondering whether volunteering for or getting more involved with the tribe in the next year would increase the viability of my applying as a Native American. From the responses I'm getting, it seems like a contrived one year immersion in tribal activities wouldn't get me very far for law school purposes?

Also, mpasi, the reason I would consult with admissions departments with law schools I'm not interested in would be because I don't want to make a bad impression on the admissions officers at schools that I would be applying to, which I might end up doing if even suggesting to them that I might apply as a Native American would be as offensive or ridiculous as some of you have suggested.




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