What's a URM to do?

(BLS, URM status, non-traditional, GLBT)
bfarag
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What's a URM to do?

Postby bfarag » Thu Oct 07, 2010 2:42 am

EDIT
Last edited by bfarag on Fri Oct 22, 2010 12:43 am, edited 1 time in total.

BlueDiamond
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Re: What's a URM to do?

Postby BlueDiamond » Thu Oct 07, 2010 2:45 am

URM with 3.3 GPA and LSAT over 170 could go almost anywhere already

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Kohinoor
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Re: What's a URM to do?

Postby Kohinoor » Thu Oct 07, 2010 9:31 am

bfarag wrote:Question!

I've got quite the dilemma. After four years of college I will finally be graduating... But not with LSDAS GPA that I wanted...

I've kinda had a rough four years. I did pretty poorly my first two, although it wasn't for nothing (ADHD with no health insurance, father lost job then left country--to a penniless family--woo!, transferred schools, a bout with depression during a semester a professor recommended me withdraw from multiple times, and severe financial frustrations)

Apparently health insurance is a useful thing.

Anyways, as a result, my GPA was in the toilet for two years. Over the course of the next year however I was able to raise my GPA by .5 (you read that right) thanks to taking tons of classes during the year working terribly hard. By the end of this year, I'll have raised it (hopefully) by .7.

Problem is, the LSDAS GPA won't budge that much (woo--course forgiveness). Thanks to that, I'll probably have a GPA of about 3.3 for the LSDAS by the time I apply for law school.

I'm an AA male with an LSAT that'll probably end up being 170+ (I haven't formally studied much yet but a diagnostic taken under actual testing conditions puts me at 169--I'm gonna work my ass off, don't worry. I'm not cocky about this test or process by any means).

Anyways here's my real dilemma (srry, it's late and I can be long-winded). It seems that I could dramatically increase my chance of entering certain schools by boosting that GPA up just a tiny bit more. Would it be worth it to stay an extra semester to boost my LSDAS by .2+? I would take courses during the summer too... I'd like to get into the top schools, but with my GPA, it's gonna be a tough battle (it seems).

My adviser has discussed the possibility of retroactively withdrawing from one of my terrible semester. It'll be hard, but with medical documentation, it's possible.

Any thoughts? (Thanks guys)
Will retroactive withdrawl matter to LSDAS?

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Stanford4Me
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Re: What's a URM to do?

Postby Stanford4Me » Thu Oct 07, 2010 9:55 am

If you are able to get a 170+ LSAT, you will be fine (though I can't speculate on HYS). Even in the high 160s you should be fine, especially if you write a GPA addendum briefly explaining the circumstances surrounding your first two years.

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vanwinkle
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Re: What's a URM to do?

Postby vanwinkle » Thu Oct 07, 2010 10:03 am

You might have problems with HYS due to your GPA, but it's still worth the app fee there, and you're very likely to get in almost anywhere else you apply. URM isn't as helpful to splitters but you need to realize that only like 100 AA males a year get 170+ scores, so you'll stand out pretty strongly.

The retroactive withdrawal could be a good thing if the W's you get are reported as non-punitive (which I'd imagine they should be). You'd need to take time for that to happen though, and honestly with your LSAT and URM status you could probably write a GPA addendum explaining the circumstances and schools would admit you all over.

Total Litigator
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Re: What's a URM to do?

Postby Total Litigator » Thu Oct 07, 2010 10:47 am

Um... If you can actually pull off an 170+ you will be in the 99.99th+ percentile for AA's. Your only complaint with a 170+ and a lower GPA would be "What's a URM to do, now I'm not a lock for Harvard or Yale."

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Kohinoor
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Re: What's a URM to do?

Postby Kohinoor » Thu Oct 07, 2010 12:02 pm

Total Litigator wrote:Um... If you can actually pull off an 170+ you will be in the 99.99th+ percentile for AA's. Your only complaint with a 170+ and a lower GPA would be "What's a URM to do, now I'm not a lock for Harvard or Yale."

Your math is wrong my good man.

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Kohinoor
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Re: What's a URM to do?

Postby Kohinoor » Thu Oct 07, 2010 12:32 pm

Nightrunner wrote:
Kohinoor wrote:
Total Litigator wrote:Um... If you can actually pull off an 170+ you will be in the 99.99th+ percentile for AA's. Your only complaint with a 170+ and a lower GPA would be "What's a URM to do, now I'm not a lock for Harvard or Yale."

Your math is wrong my good man.

Image

He isn't too far off, although I'm not positive he understands what 99.99th percentile means.

I'll look at it but I feel he's off by a factor of 10

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bk1
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Re: What's a URM to do?

Postby bk1 » Thu Oct 07, 2010 12:34 pm

Sidenote: I'm surprised that there are more Puerto Ricans taking the LSAT than Mexicans and that they do by far worse.

bfarag
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Re: What's a URM to do?

Postby bfarag » Thu Oct 07, 2010 1:38 pm

vanwinkle wrote:You might have problems with HYS due to your GPA, but it's still worth the app fee there, and you're very likely to get in almost anywhere else you apply. URM isn't as helpful to splitters but you need to realize that only like 100 AA males a year get 170+ scores, so you'll stand out pretty strongly.

The retroactive withdrawal could be a good thing if the W's you get are reported as non-punitive (which I'd imagine they should be). You'd need to take time for that to happen though, and honestly with your LSAT and URM status you could probably write a GPA addendum explaining the circumstances and schools would admit you all over.


Yeah, it'd be a non-punitive measure. And the LSDAS doesn't pay attention to withdrawals (thankfully). I realize that there are few individuals who score in this region, so I know this gives me quite a bump.

But I'm wondering, if I want to aim for HYS, would it be more beneficial for me to stay that extra semester (or potentially two)? It has always been a dream to attend Harvard, and to know that--according to certain, forum accounts and LSTN accounts--it's not quite a far-fetched dream (off by .2 in the GPA it seems) is almost heart-wrenching. Would it look bad if I took time to complete my minor to raise my GPA?

Also, I don't plan on heading directly to law school. I'd like to do work in my mom's home country before I decide to do something like that, so it's not like I'll be sitting around if I decide to graduate in the winter.

I'd also like to thank you individuals for your input. It really means a lot to me to have people provide their opinions and knowledge.

trudat15
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Re: What's a URM to do?

Postby trudat15 » Thu Oct 07, 2010 6:16 pm

bfarag wrote:
vanwinkle wrote:You might have problems with HYS due to your GPA, but it's still worth the app fee there, and you're very likely to get in almost anywhere else you apply. URM isn't as helpful to splitters but you need to realize that only like 100 AA males a year get 170+ scores, so you'll stand out pretty strongly.

The retroactive withdrawal could be a good thing if the W's you get are reported as non-punitive (which I'd imagine they should be). You'd need to take time for that to happen though, and honestly with your LSAT and URM status you could probably write a GPA addendum explaining the circumstances and schools would admit you all over.


Yeah, it'd be a non-punitive measure. And the LSDAS doesn't pay attention to withdrawals (thankfully). I realize that there are few individuals who score in this region, so I know this gives me quite a bump.

But I'm wondering, if I want to aim for HYS, would it be more beneficial for me to stay that extra semester (or potentially two)? It has always been a dream to attend Harvard, and to know that--according to certain, forum accounts and LSTN accounts--it's not quite a far-fetched dream (off by .2 in the GPA it seems) is almost heart-wrenching. Would it look bad if I took time to complete my minor to raise my GPA?

Also, I don't plan on heading directly to law school. I'd like to do work in my mom's home country before I decide to do something like that, so it's not like I'll be sitting around if I decide to graduate in the winter.

I'd also like to thank you individuals for your input. It really means a lot to me to have people provide their opinions and knowledge.


If I were you, I'd do exactly what you are proposing. Taking extra classes (if you can afford it) before your first bachelor's degree to boost the GPA up substantially. Hold off on taking your final major class until the following year, so you can fill that year with all "As". I know if I were in college, I would seriously consider this as well. Though I understand that there is a big URM bump for AA males, especially ones that can score 170+, if your dream is HLS, then do anything you can do get there. If your 3.3 goes up to 3.5 or 3.6 (depending on how many summer/school year "A" classes you can take) I imagine you will stand a far better chance at your dream, which is worth the extra year IMO.

I wouldnt really know what the URM bump is, but if HYS are indeed just out of reach, then do what you can do get it within reach.

bfarag
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Re: What's a URM to do?

Postby bfarag » Tue Oct 12, 2010 11:33 pm

trudat15 wrote:
bfarag wrote:
vanwinkle wrote:You might have problems with HYS due to your GPA, but it's still worth the app fee there, and you're very likely to get in almost anywhere else you apply. URM isn't as helpful to splitters but you need to realize that only like 100 AA males a year get 170+ scores, so you'll stand out pretty strongly.

The retroactive withdrawal could be a good thing if the W's you get are reported as non-punitive (which I'd imagine they should be). You'd need to take time for that to happen though, and honestly with your LSAT and URM status you could probably write a GPA addendum explaining the circumstances and schools would admit you all over.


Yeah, it'd be a non-punitive measure. And the LSDAS doesn't pay attention to withdrawals (thankfully). I realize that there are few individuals who score in this region, so I know this gives me quite a bump.

But I'm wondering, if I want to aim for HYS, would it be more beneficial for me to stay that extra semester (or potentially two)? It has always been a dream to attend Harvard, and to know that--according to certain, forum accounts and LSTN accounts--it's not quite a far-fetched dream (off by .2 in the GPA it seems) is almost heart-wrenching. Would it look bad if I took time to complete my minor to raise my GPA?

Also, I don't plan on heading directly to law school. I'd like to do work in my mom's home country before I decide to do something like that, so it's not like I'll be sitting around if I decide to graduate in the winter.

I'd also like to thank you individuals for your input. It really means a lot to me to have people provide their opinions and knowledge.


If I were you, I'd do exactly what you are proposing. Taking extra classes (if you can afford it) before your first bachelor's degree to boost the GPA up substantially. Hold off on taking your final major class until the following year, so you can fill that year with all "As". I know if I were in college, I would seriously consider this as well. Though I understand that there is a big URM bump for AA males, especially ones that can score 170+, if your dream is HLS, then do anything you can do get there. If your 3.3 goes up to 3.5 or 3.6 (depending on how many summer/school year "A" classes you can take) I imagine you will stand a far better chance at your dream, which is worth the extra year IMO.

I wouldnt really know what the URM bump is, but if HYS are indeed just out of reach, then do what you can do get it within reach.


Thanks!

I highly doubt the URM push is that significant, but I figured that I should push myself so that I don't need to rely too much on it.

UPDATE: I can withdraw from my crappiest semester (LSAC GPA sky rockets to a 3.6 because of it). I can probably get a LSAC 3.7+ by the end of the next year and a half. Ah!!!

Wish me luck guys! Thanks again!

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PDaddy
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Re: What's a URM to do?

Postby PDaddy » Tue Oct 12, 2010 11:37 pm

BlueDiamond wrote:URM with 3.3 GPA and LSAT over 170 could go almost anywhere already



Right...with a 170+, HYS will be offering you house and car.

thatjuanguy
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Re: What's a URM to do?

Postby thatjuanguy » Tue Oct 12, 2010 11:41 pm

bfarag wrote:
Thanks!

I highly doubt the URM push is that significant, but I figured that I should push myself so that I don't need to rely too much on it.

UPDATE: I can withdraw from my crappiest semester (LSAC GPA sky rockets to a 3.6 because of it). I can probably get a LSAC 3.7+ by the end of the next year and a half. Ah!!!

Wish me luck guys! Thanks again!


ummm, you're wrong? the urm bump especially for AA's can be quite significant...

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Stanford4Me
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Re: What's a URM to do?

Postby Stanford4Me » Tue Oct 12, 2010 11:58 pm

thatjuanguy wrote:
bfarag wrote:
Thanks!

I highly doubt the URM push is that significant, but I figured that I should push myself so that I don't need to rely too much on it.

UPDATE: I can withdraw from my crappiest semester (LSAC GPA sky rockets to a 3.6 because of it). I can probably get a LSAC 3.7+ by the end of the next year and a half. Ah!!!

Wish me luck guys! Thanks again!


ummm, you're wrong? the urm bump especially for AA's can be quite significant...

I will +1 this and add "especially for AA males"

bfarag
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Re: What's a URM to do?

Postby bfarag » Thu Oct 14, 2010 10:14 pm

Stanford4Me wrote:
thatjuanguy wrote:
bfarag wrote:
Thanks!

I highly doubt the URM push is that significant, but I figured that I should push myself so that I don't need to rely too much on it.

UPDATE: I can withdraw from my crappiest semester (LSAC GPA sky rockets to a 3.6 because of it). I can probably get a LSAC 3.7+ by the end of the next year and a half. Ah!!!

Wish me luck guys! Thanks again!


ummm, you're wrong? the urm bump especially for AA's can be quite significant...

I will +1 this and add "especially for AA males"


A lot of people say that but I've seen too many profiles on this website with people overestimating their chances. I don't want to do that. I expect there will be a bump thanks to the nature of admissions, but I refuse to rely/strongly believe in it.

But maybe you guys are right--who knows? I've seen it work on a girl from my high school after all...

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bk1
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Re: What's a URM to do?

Postby bk1 » Thu Oct 14, 2010 10:22 pm

http://www.lawschoolnumbers.com

Look for URM applicants with numbers similar to yours.

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s0ph1e2007
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Re: What's a URM to do?

Postby s0ph1e2007 » Thu Oct 14, 2010 10:29 pm

bfarag wrote:
trudat15 wrote:
bfarag wrote:
vanwinkle wrote:You might have problems with HYS due to your GPA, but it's still worth the app fee there, and you're very likely to get in almost anywhere else you apply. URM isn't as helpful to splitters but you need to realize that only like 100 AA males a year get 170+ scores, so you'll stand out pretty strongly.

The retroactive withdrawal could be a good thing if the W's you get are reported as non-punitive (which I'd imagine they should be). You'd need to take time for that to happen though, and honestly with your LSAT and URM status you could probably write a GPA addendum explaining the circumstances and schools would admit you all over.


Yeah, it'd be a non-punitive measure. And the LSDAS doesn't pay attention to withdrawals (thankfully). I realize that there are few individuals who score in this region, so I know this gives me quite a bump.

But I'm wondering, if I want to aim for HYS, would it be more beneficial for me to stay that extra semester (or potentially two)? It has always been a dream to attend Harvard, and to know that--according to certain, forum accounts and LSTN accounts--it's not quite a far-fetched dream (off by .2 in the GPA it seems) is almost heart-wrenching. Would it look bad if I took time to complete my minor to raise my GPA?

Also, I don't plan on heading directly to law school. I'd like to do work in my mom's home country before I decide to do something like that, so it's not like I'll be sitting around if I decide to graduate in the winter.

I'd also like to thank you individuals for your input. It really means a lot to me to have people provide their opinions and knowledge.


If I were you, I'd do exactly what you are proposing. Taking extra classes (if you can afford it) before your first bachelor's degree to boost the GPA up substantially. Hold off on taking your final major class until the following year, so you can fill that year with all "As". I know if I were in college, I would seriously consider this as well. Though I understand that there is a big URM bump for AA males, especially ones that can score 170+, if your dream is HLS, then do anything you can do get there. If your 3.3 goes up to 3.5 or 3.6 (depending on how many summer/school year "A" classes you can take) I imagine you will stand a far better chance at your dream, which is worth the extra year IMO.

I wouldnt really know what the URM bump is, but if HYS are indeed just out of reach, then do what you can do get it within reach.


Thanks!

I highly doubt the URM push is that significant, but I figured that I should push myself so that I don't need to rely too much on it.

UPDATE: I can withdraw from my crappiest semester (LSAC GPA sky rockets to a 3.6 because of it). I can probably get a LSAC 3.7+ by the end of the next year and a half. Ah!!!

Wish me luck guys! Thanks again!



Are you sure that LSAC will accept your withdrawal from those classes? If you've already submitted your transcript you might have a problem.
I've heard of people doing this exact thing before and it being a problem.
Last edited by s0ph1e2007 on Thu Oct 14, 2010 10:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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romothesavior
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Re: What's a URM to do?

Postby romothesavior » Thu Oct 14, 2010 10:35 pm

This really isn't difficult.

1. Get 170+
2. Apply everywhere
3. Enjoy CCN
4. ???
5. Profit

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20121109
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Re: What's a URM to do?

Postby 20121109 » Thu Oct 14, 2010 10:56 pm

http://lawschoolnumbers.com/mightyaphrodite/jd

AA female. Break a 170 and I'd say you have a good shot at H.

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mbw
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Re: What's a URM to do?

Postby mbw » Thu Oct 14, 2010 11:01 pm

GAIAtheCHEERLEADER wrote:http://lawschoolnumbers.com/mightyaphrodite/jd

AA female. Break a 170 and I'd say you have a good shot at H.


I know this person, and she had some pretty strong softs as well. Not trying to dissuade, but tempering...

ETA: After last year and the nightmare scenario where 170+ culturally affiliated NDNs couldn't break the barrier, I'm much less convinced that, in the current climate, the LSAT alone gets you the gold. Maybe for AA guys, but not for the other 90% of URMs...
Last edited by mbw on Thu Oct 14, 2010 11:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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CryingMonkey
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Re: What's a URM to do?

Postby CryingMonkey » Thu Oct 14, 2010 11:07 pm

those are about my numbers (3.3/179) so there'll at least be another data point in the next few months...don't know if it'll do you any good by that point, though.

Total Litigator
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Re: What's a URM to do?

Postby Total Litigator » Thu Oct 14, 2010 11:39 pm

"In 2004, 10,370 blacks took the LSAT examination. Only 29 blacks, or 0.3 percent of all LSAT test takers, scored 170 or above"

Boo yah. (http://www.jbhe.com/news_views/51_gradu ... _test.html)

Although I am wrong, as long as the numbers haven't gone up a lot since 2004, a 170 puts an AA at the 99.7th percentile. So yes, I was off but only .02%. The numbers hopefully have gone up since then, but a 170 is still probably a pretty safe 99th percentile.

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20121109
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Re: What's a URM to do?

Postby 20121109 » Thu Oct 14, 2010 11:45 pm

mbw wrote:
GAIAtheCHEERLEADER wrote:http://lawschoolnumbers.com/mightyaphrodite/jd

AA female. Break a 170 and I'd say you have a good shot at H.


I know this person, and she had some pretty strong softs as well. Not trying to dissuade, but tempering...

ETA: After last year and the nightmare scenario where 170+ culturally affiliated NDNs couldn't break the barrier, I'm much less convinced that, in the current climate, the LSAT alone gets you the gold. Maybe for AA guys, but not for the other 90% of URMs...


Yeah. I see where you're coming from...

But OP is an AA male. FYI, two AA guys from last cycle got into H with stats 172/3.2 and 174/3.2. One of them went to a UG that was notorious for grade deflation, and the other had substantial WE, respectively, but I'm just throwing it out there. As long as OP has some softs to back him up, I think his chances are more likely than not.

Woozy
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Re: What's a URM to do?

Postby Woozy » Fri Oct 15, 2010 12:04 am

Total Litigator wrote:"In 2004, 10,370 blacks took the LSAT examination. Only 29 blacks, or 0.3 percent of all LSAT test takers, scored 170 or above"

Boo yah. (http://www.jbhe.com/news_views/51_gradu ... _test.html)

Although I am wrong, as long as the numbers haven't gone up a lot since 2004, a 170 puts an AA at the 99.7th percentile. So yes, I was off but only .02%. The numbers hopefully have gone up since then, but a 170 is still probably a pretty safe 99th percentile.


So, the proportion of AAs who score 170+ is about 30 times what you claimed, and you think you were only off by a little?




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